Debate in the Welsh Assembly: The Final Police Settlement 2018-19
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8. Debate: The Final Police Settlement 2018-19 Y Dirprwy
Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 16:44:32 The
next item is the debate on the final police settlement 2018-19. I
call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public
Services to move the motion. Alun Davies. 328 Motion
NDM6649 Julie James To propose that the National Assembly for
Wales, under Section 84H of the Local Government Finance Act
1988,...Request free trial
8. Debate: The Final Police Settlement 2018-19
Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer
The next item is the debate on the final police settlement 2018-19. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services to move the motion. Alun Davies. 328 Motion NDM6649 Julie James To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, under Section 84H of the Local Government Finance Act 1988, approves the Local Government Finance Report (No. 2) 2018-19 (Final Settlement - Police and Crime Commissioners), which was laid in the Table Office on 31 January 2018. Motion moved.
Alun Davies AM
Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 329 I'm today presenting to the Assembly for its approval details of the Welsh Government's contribution to the core revenue funding for the four police and crime commissioners in Wales for 2018 to 2019, but before I do so, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd like to pay tribute to all the men and women who serve in our police forces, and I hope that I'll be joined on all sides of the Chamber in paying tribute to the work that is done by police forces across Wales, keeping our communities safe, maintaining the highest standards of duty, dedication, and, at times, bravery, in maintaining the community safety matters that are within the settlement for this place. 330 Members will be aware that the core funding for police in Wales is delivered through a three-way arrangement involving the Welsh Government, the Home Office and through council tax. As policing policy and operational matters are not yet devolved, the overall funding picture is determined and driven by the Home Office. The established approach to setting and distributing the Welsh Government component has therefore been based on the principle of ensuring consistency and fairness across Wales. As outlined in the final police settlement announcement on 31 January, the total unhypothecated revenue support for the police service in Wales for 2018-19 amounts to £350 million. The Welsh Government's contribution to this amount through revenue support grant and redistributed non-domestic rates is just over £140 million, and it is this funding, Deputy Presiding Officer, that you are being asked to approve today. 331 As in previous years, the Home Office has decided to overlay its needs-based formula with a floor mechanism. This means that, for 2018-19, police and crime commissioners will all receive a cash-flat settlement when compared with 2017-18. The Home Office will provide a top-up grant, totalling £3.7 million, to ensure that both Dyfed-Powys and the North Wales Police meet the floor level. I have to say, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm extremely disappointed in this. We have seen not a single extra penny for our police forces, and this amounts to real-term cuts in police services across Wales. I think many of us who work alongside the police and admire the work of police forces across Wales will be disappointed that the Home Office, whilst promising warm words, does not promise and deliver additional funding for police forces and police and crime commissioners. I think people on all sides of this Chamber would want to see our police forces funded at an appropriate level. The settlement for 2018-19 will provide core central funding at the same level as the current year. PCCs will have the ability to raise additional funding through their council tax precept, and we've seen, again, the UK Conservative Government moving away from their own responsibility to fund our public services and placing additional burdens on taxpayers across Wales. This is not what the Welsh Government wishes to see. We wish to see our police forces funded at appropriate levels. 332 It is the responsibility of PCCs to set their precepts. Police and crime commissioners in Wales have the freedom to make their own decisions about council tax increases and are not subject to the limits that apply in England. In setting their element of council tax, I expect each PCC to act in a reasonable manner to take account of the pressures on hard-pressed households. We appreciate that difficult decisions are necessary in developing plans for the coming years. The Welsh Government is committed to working with PCCs and chief constables to ensure that funding challenges are managed in ways that minimise the impact on community safety in Wales. As a part of this, the Welsh Government, in its own 2018-19 budget, has made provision for a further two years of funding for the 500 additional community support officers recruited under the previous programme for government commitment. In total, Deputy Presiding Officer, £17 million is earmarked in the budget for next year for the continued delivery of this commitment. The full complement of officers has been deployed since October 2013, and they are making a positive contribution to public safety across Wales. A vital part of their role is actively engaging with partners and community organisations to address anti-social behaviour and related criminal activity, and they make an important contribution to preventative spend. The Welsh Government, working in partnership with the four Welsh police forces and British Transport Police, has introduced this additional resource, which is helping to make a real difference to the lives of the people of Wales. 333 Returning to the purpose of today's debate, the motion is to agree the local government finance report for police and crime commissioners, which has been laid before the Assembly. If approved, this will allow the commissioners to confirm their budget for the next financial year. But I would also wish to make the point, Deputy Presiding Officer, that I do not believe we have a satisfactory settlement on these matters. My intention is to move forward to create new policy and working arrangements in Wales, with our police forces, and to take forward policing and community safety and justice policy. 334 I hope that Members across the whole Chamber will support the motion this afternoon, but I hope that Members across the whole Chamber will also appreciate the great pressures facing our police forces. And I hope that Members across the Chamber will also support me in saying to the UK Conservative Government that all our police forces deserve better. 335
16:50
Well, with Welsh police budgets funded, as we've heard, by Home Office, Welsh Government and council tax, we will support the motion. 336 The Conservative-led UK Government elected in 2010 inherited £545 million-worth of police cuts from Labour’s final budget, to be made by 2014. Labour’s deficit reduction and spending plans under Mr Miliband would have meant equivalent police budgets to those implemented by the UK coalition Government prior to 2015. In 2015, the UK Government announced that the amount of money the police receive from Government would increase each year, in line with inflation, for the following five years. Part of the extra funding over these years is going on specific areas of policing, like cyber crime and tackling child sexual exploitation. Because these are often dealt with regionally, not every individual force would see the benefit of this uplift. Access is also being given to a £175 million police transformation fund. 337 The UK Government's police settlement increases total funding across the police system in England and Wales by up to £450 million in 2018-19—an increase of over £1 billion since 2015-16. The UK Government has protected police grants to forces in cash terms, and, if locally-elected police and crime commissioners had raised council tax precept contributions by £1 per month per household, this would have allowed, the Home Office states, £3 million extra in Gwent, £3.1 million in Dyfed-Powys, £4 million in north Wales and £6.7 million in south Wales. But, as the Cabinet Secretary rightly states, the commissioners are free to make their own decisions after consultation, and the commissioners have announced a 7 per cent precept increase for south Wales, 5 per cent for Dyfed-Powys, 4.49 per cent for Gwent—although that was vetoed by their police and crime panel—and 3.58 per cent in north Wales. And, although north Wales has not increased its precept to the maximum, south Wales is still paying less as it is still playing catch-up. 338 Total police-recorded crime across Wales rose by 12 per cent in the year ending September 2016—14 per cent up in Gwent, 13.7 per cent in north Wales, 13 per cent in Dyfed-Powys and 10.9 per cent up in south Wales. However, Welsh police forces themselves have attributed much of this to changes in recording in 2014, and greater public confidence in reporting crime. North Wales Police also emphasised there is now better understanding, and therefore identification, of child sexual exploitation, sexual violence, cyber crime and serious and organised crime. Further, the UK Statistics Authority has stated that the crime survey for England and Wales provides a more reliable measure, and this indicates that crime across England and Wales fell 9 per cent in the 12 months to June 2017, compared with the year before. The 2016-17 crime survey for England and Wales found that 63 per cent of people in Wales say that the police do an excellent or good job, and North Wales Police is fourth from top across England and Wales for public confidence. 339 Although the number of police officers in Wales rose by 1 per cent between 2016 and 2017, the four police and crime commissioners and four chief constables in Wales have warned that their inability to access the £2 million they pay to the apprenticeship levy could result in fewer police officers in the future, and potential recruits choosing to sign up for English forces instead. Despite Welsh Government claims to the contrary, the UK Government has fully funded the Welsh Government for this, after covering the amount paid into the levy by Welsh public sector employers and the consequential Barnett block reduction. Welsh police forces need this funding to go to the police college. They've told me that this is recognised by the Home Office, and they're calling on the Welsh Government to get in the room with the Home Office and sort this out once and for all. 340 Operation Tarian was originally created in 2002 to provide intelligence-led, joined-up law enforcement by integrating the services of the Dyfed-Powys, south Wales and Gwent police forces to tackle drugs crime. In 2004, operation Tarian Plus was launched to co-ordinate the response to serious and organised crime in Wales, with financial support from the Welsh Government. Although less of a problem for north Wales, which works with Cheshire Police on this, there are concerns that the Welsh Government is cutting its contribution. There are also concerns that the Welsh Government is planning to phase out its £1.98 million annual contribution to the all-Wales schools liaison core programme from 2019, as the funding disappears into the new schools curriculum. And the danger inherent in calls for police devolution is evidenced by proposals to grab power from our four locally accountable police and crime commissioners and centralise this in a commissioner politically accountable to the Welsh Government in Cardiff. 341
16:55
The settlement that we’re discussing today for the police services shows clearly, once again, why we need to devolve policing to Wales as a matter of urgency. This settlement is worsening the financial problems facing the police here in Wales. Whilst the United Kingdom Government alleges that the settlement gives a boost of £450 million to police budgets, in reality, £270 million of the figure comes from the fact that the United Kingdom Government is giving permission to the police to raise a higher precept on taxpayers, whilst £180 million—the remaining figure—comes from the Home Office increasing central expenditure and top-slicing. 342 So, as we scratch the surface, it becomes clear that the financial settlement for police in the United Kingdom is misleading. This settlement means that police forces will have to choose between increasing council tax by up to £12 for each home, placing additional strain on personal finances, or, on the other hand, they’ll have to earmark further cuts, which will, in turn, endanger the safety of our communities. The United Kingdom Government plans mean a cut in real terms of £2.1 million to North Wales Police. 343 The Welsh Government budget has implications for North Wales Police as well. We've mentioned—Mark Isherwood spoke about the school liaison officers programme. This is an effective programme, but it’s under threat now because, in the 2019-20 Welsh Government budget, there is a significant cut. The funding is used to create opportunities for pupils in primary and secondary schools in north Wales to improve their understanding, their attitude, and their behaviour in important subjects such as alcohol, drugs, healthy relationships and antisocial behaviour. At present, the scheme is jointly funded by North Wales Police and the Welsh Government, but the cut of 44 per cent in the Welsh Government contribution to this programme will jeopardise the future of the programme, which is a cause of concern. 344 The case in favour of devolving policing from Westminster to our Welsh Parliament is entirely clear, and this is the time to do that. If Scotland and Northern Ireland have these powers, and Manchester will be receiving some responsibilities over policing, why doesn’t Wales receive these powers as well? Four years have gone by since the cross-party Silk commission recommended the devolution of policing powers, but we’re still no closer to achieving that. Figures from Dyfed-Powys Police show that if policing were to be devolved and funded per head of population then police forces in Wales would benefit from £25 million every year. Giving control to Wales over our police forces would ensure a better funding settlement and would also ensure that one of our most important public services would be controlled as close as possible to the communities that it serves. 345
I, first of all, would like to put on record the tremendous work, for example, that the PCSOs do, and the considerable difference that the 500 PCSOs funded by Welsh Government have actually made to our communities. Those of us who have walked round our communities with those PCSOs actually realise and recognise the significant contribution they are making to our communities and the additional resource that they actually are. And also the same in terms of the police, who are working under the most difficult circumstances and considerable pressures. 346 The background to what is happening with the underfunding and the cuts—the real cuts—that have been made in policing in Wales is this: police numbers are now the lowest for 30 years, Wales now has 680 fewer police officers than it had, violent crime in the past 12 months has gone up by 20 per cent, knife crime is up 26 per cent and unsolved crimes are up from 74,000 to 86,000. The link between that and the underfunding and the cuts to policing is unquestionable. 347 In 2015, Government Minister Karen Bradley said that the Conservatives are not cutting funding to the police. And I've listened to what the opposition spokesman has actually said—what I believe is a fantasy land, sleight of hand of figures. Of course, when Karen Bradley made that statement, there is an organisation called Full Fact, which actually checks the actual statements that have been made across the board of all political parties, and they checked it against the ONS statistics, and this is what the ONS statistics actually say: 348 'Police funding fell from 2010/11 to 2015/16...by 18%, taking inflation into account.' 349 They also say: 350 'That compares to a 31% increase in funding between 2000/01 and 2010/11.' 351 Those were the Labour years. So, what is very clear, we heard earlier today—[Interruption.] Yes, I'll take an intervention. 352
17:00
Will you acknowledge the fact that the last Labour budget cut police funding by £548 million up to 2014 and that further cuts would have followed by the subsequent economic announcements made by the then opposition Ministers in UK Government? 353
Well, you are very selective with your facts. What the ONS statistics are very clear about is that since the Tories have been in, since 2010, you have cut policing in real terms by 18 per cent and that, under the Labour Government going back to 2001, real-terms spending on police increased by 31 per cent. Those are the ONS statistics. And, as we heard earlier, one thing is very clear about what happens when there is a Tory Government in Westminster: poverty increases, homelessness increases, and Tories also increase crime. 354
Thanks to the Minister for bringing today's debate on the annual police settlement. We in UKIP would also be keen to join the Minister in his tribute to serving police officers. I would point out at the outset that we support today's motion, and we welcome the increased financial support, albeit modest increases from the aggregate external finance, which is the Welsh Government's part of the police settlement. 355 Moving on to issues that have been raised today, I note that Mark Isherwood raised problems around the apprenticeship levy, because I noticed from reading the transcripts of last year’s debate that he also raised that point last year. So, I would be interested in the Minister’s response to this, because this does seem to be an issue that seems to be persisting. 356 Another issue that is often raised is the devolution of policing, which Siân Gwenllian has raised today. Of course, Plaid have been consistent in making a case for this. We in UKIP don’t actually support that. But, again, I would be interested in the Minister’s response, because this is something that Labour in the Assembly has seemed to be in favour of at certain points in the past. Referring back again to the transcript of last year’s debate, I noticed that Jane Hutt, who was moving the police settlement for the Government on that occasion, appeared to support the devolution of policing, but when Andrew R.T. Davies, in an intervention, asked Jane if that was actually the policy of the UK Labour Party at Westminster, he didn’t actually get a clear response from that. And looking at— 357
Nick Ramsay AM
I wonder why that was. 358
17:05
Well, I wondered, which is why I raised it. 359 Looking at the Labour manifesto, the UK manifesto from last year, there was not really any mention of devolution of policing, so it would be good to hear today, Minister, what your attitude to devolution of policing is, and how you think that tallies with the attitude of the Westminster Labour Party. 360 What would we like to see in UKIP as the priorities for police funding? Well, in general we support the principle of more bobbies on the beat. We note that you made a commitment to the 500 PCSOs. Yes, we think that's a good thing. We said so last year. We think in general the greater visibility of police officers or, failing that, PCSOs will have a deterrent effect on crime and will lead communities to actually feel safer and more cohesive. To that end we would support any moves that took police officers away from paperwork and got them out into the community. You mentioned yourself community safety, so in that respect we agree with you. 361 Labour Ministers in the Assembly in the past have tended to talk a lot about taking measures to divert young people away from crime and anti-social behaviour, and we broadly also support this way of dealing with the issue. If there can be early interventions to prevent crime from taking place in the first place, then that is a cost-effective way of using the budget. To be more specific, what crimes are we seeing in Wales at the moment that appear to be on the rise or to be particularly problematic? Well, to look at South Wales Central to begin with, we've seen problems with illegal off-road biking, deliberate grass fires and problems associated with on-street drug use, all of which I've raised in various questions in the Chamber in the past year. Moving away from south Wales, there's also been a particular problem, which seems to be notably affecting Newport, which is over missiles being thrown at emergency vehicles and emergency workers. We know that there are also certain areas of Newport where, in the recent past, taxi drivers have been unwilling to go. This isn't me having a pop at Newport, by the way; it's simply acknowledging that there are anti-social problems there. 362 So, it would be interesting to think how we could attempt to deal with this at source and try to understand why this is happening and what community-based measures we might bring in in an attempt to prevent these fairly mindless acts taking place. Of course, it isn't just happening in Newport. Chris Bryant, the Labour MP for Rhondda, has a private Member's Bill going through Parliament at the moment, and his Bill is calling for tougher sanctions against offenders who assault emergency workers. Attacks on such workers have risen to an astonishing 275 a day, although of course that's a UK figure. But I think we do need to combine tougher sanctions with an understanding of why these things happen in the first place. 363 That's enough from me on today's settlement. As I say, we do support your motion. Thank you. 364
Can I focus my comments just on three particular areas, the first of which is the apprenticeship levy issue? You will know, Cabinet Secretary, that the view of the UK Government is that they have devolved the resources to the Welsh Government to allow for this cash to be made available to Welsh police forces so that they can avail themselves of the benefits that the apprenticeship levy may be able to bring to them and their staff members. Of course, it's not an insignificant sum in the case of North Wales Police. For example, they have suggested to me that it's £423,000-worth of income per year, which they're currently foregoing because of the failure of the Welsh Government to seek some sort of agreement with the UK Government over the availability of that money. This is cash that is already in your pockets, so I think we do deserve an explanation as to why that cash is not being released to the North Wales Police force and the other police forces in Wales to enable them to upskill their workforces. 365 Secondly, I will also pick up on the point of the schools liaison officers. It has already been made in many respects. Now, the view of the Welsh Government is that in future the new curriculum will be able to pick up the work that is being done by the schools liaison officers, but as Siân Gwenllian quite rightly pointed out, it's not just substance misuse that these officers are dealing with; it's also healthy relationships, anti-social behaviour and personal safety-related issues. Again, just in the case of North Wales Police, we're talking about £388,000 per year that that force will be deprived of because of a deliberate decision by the Welsh Government to redivert that cash into the education budget and away from our police force. I wonder, when you add that to the cost that they're foregoing in terms of the apprenticeship levy, how you expect just that one force to make up for £800,000 in future financial years, which they are currently not receiving as a result of the way in which the Welsh Government carves up its Welsh block grant. 366 I listened carefully to the comments on PCSOs. I really value the work of PCSOs in my constituency. They're doing a fantastic job, particularly in terms of engagement with the local communities in which they work. I know that the Welsh Government has funded some 500 of these, and 101 of those are in north Wales at the moment, and I look to you today, Cabinet Secretary, to give a continued commitment to the funding of those PCSOs, because of the excellent work that they're doing. I don't think there's been a commitment beyond the next financial year, but it would be interesting to hear what your views are on that. I certainly want to see them continue for the whole duration of this Assembly, and I think some security around that would be very helpful indeed. 367 Just finally, if I may, I want to comment on the partnership work that the police force is doing with local authorities and with the health board in particular in north Wales, and indeed some of the other emergency services. Many of the problems that the health board is creating for the police force are manifesting themselves in extra costs. So, for example, delays in ambulances arriving on the scene when they have been called by a police officer is a problem that's been cited by the North Wales Police that's causing them some angst. It takes officers away from other response duties when they're having to wait hours for an ambulance to turn up. Frankly, if a police officer calls an ambulance, or any other professional like a police officer or a doctor, they ought to be able to get that ambulance responding much more swiftly because of the extra pressures that it places on their services. 368 In addition, North Wales Police have also said that they're having problems getting the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to engage on mental health related matters. Again, that doesn't surprise me because of the problems that there are in that health board, but I do think that these are all adding to some of the pressures that our police forces are facing. I don't know what the situation is like in other parts of Wales, but certainly up there this lack of engagement from the health board and this lack of engagement from the ambulance service in terms of providing responses is certainly leading to additional costs. 369 So, that, coupled with this lack of investment as far as the apprenticeship levy is concerned, and this lack of resource in terms of the schools liaison officers in future years, is causing some real concern. I do hope that you'll be able to give us some comfort on those and that you will look at these issues in future years to make sure that the resources are getting through. 370
17:10
Thank you for the opportunity just to contribute briefly and to endorse some of the points that have already been made about the schools liaison programme, because it is an important preventative service. It fills a gap, without doubt, in terms of the education provision for children—a gap that wouldn’t be filled unless the police made that provision. They look at online security, the misuse of substance, domestic abuse—there’s even a lesson for five-year-old children where they can start to discuss issues surrounding domestic violence. Without it, there would be a huge gap, and if the proposed cuts do come to pass, then the service will shrink. It will only probably happen in secondary schools. The Government talks about the ACEs and the need to tackle these problems that some children experience—by that time, it’s often too late. 371 One of the narratives of this Government is that there needs to be more emphasis on the well-being of young people in the education service, and that is reflected in the reform to the curriculum. Another narrative, of course, is that we need further investment in preventative services. Well, this is something that contributes to both of those things: almost 10,000 lessons across Wales last year, and 230,000 children benefiting directly from this provision. And, of course, the cut could mean that we would lose much of that. Now, I know that the children’s commissioner is very eager to see this service remain. I’m also sure that the commissioner for future generations will also have a view on this because this is the exact kind of thing that we should be promoting and defending. 372 So, just to endorse those messages and to encourage you to do what you can to protect that budget, because we all know that, ultimately, unless we do that, then it will be more expensive, not only for Government, but for wider society too. 373
17:15
Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer
Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate—Alun Davies. 374
Alun Davies AM Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services
I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer. I do recognise the points that have been raised by Members on all sides of the Chamber this afternoon about issues within the budget, and I will give Members my undertaking that I will consider all of those matters and will make further statements on those issues in the weeks and months to come. 375 But where I may disagree with Llyr Gruffydd in his final remarks is that these matters are fundamentally a matter as a consequence of the policy of the United Kingdom Conservative Government and the policy that is being pursued by the Home Office in delivering year-on-year real-term cuts to our policy forces—[Interruption.] I will take an intervention, but please allow me to finish my first sentence. I would be grateful. I will address—. There was a comma there, not a full stop. I will address the points that were raised, but, fundamentally, these are issues as a consequence of declines in budgets for police forces as a consequence of the ideologically driven failed policy of austerity. I'll give way. 376
You're trying to heap all of the blame for these poor budget settlements on the UK Government, but the reality is, as I pointed out earlier, that the apprenticeship levy has already been devolved to you. You've got the money for the apprenticeship levy—that's £400,000-odd—then, in addition to that, the school liaison officers—you've got £388,000 that you're planning to whip away from the North Wales Police force in 2019. That is your decision, not the UK Government's. 377
Alun Davies AM
I give way to Darren Millar in the vain hope—you would have thought I'd learnt my lesson after a decade of doing so—that he would actually inform the debate and he would inform Members, rather than continue to pursue a failed argument, which he failed to make in his substantive remarks and which he failed to make again there. But if he is going to join me in supporting the devolution of the policing budget and of policing responsibility—I'll give way again if he wishes to. He doesn't. 378 But let me say this in replying to the debate: I do agree with the points that were made by Siân Gwenllian on both the issue of the budgets and on the devolution of police forces. I can reassure Gareth Bennett that it is the policy of the Welsh Government that these matters should be devolved to Wales, and it is a policy of the Labour Party and the Labour movement that these things are devolved to this place and to this country. And the points that were made by Mick Antoniw, I think, were most telling. But the points that were made about CSOs and the role that they have in communities in helping keep our communities safe is absolutely fundamental to addressing issues of crime and issues of community safety. We will be continuing to protect that budget, and I certainly want to see the Welsh Government contribution to CSOs maintained in the longer term, and not just over the current and present future financial year. 379 But the fundamental point Mick Antoniw raised about 18 per cent cuts as opposed to a 30 per cent increase in budget is fundamental to all the other parts of the debate we've had this afternoon. At the end of the day, we've heard warm words for the police forces from successive Home Secretaries and policing Ministers in London, but what we've seen has not been the funding to sustain and support those policies. 380 And let me say this, Deputy Presiding Officer: Mark Isherwood, in a somewhat bizarre contribution, seemed to be arguing at one point that the police had far too much money, if anything, and then he seemed to be almost blaming victims for crime numbers, which I really find a curious argument to be making. But let me say this to Mark Isherwood, because I know that he has some very real concerns in all of these matters: fundamentally, we have two issues here facing us. We have a flawed settlement that delivers poor policy making, and we have flawed logic in the Treasury that doesn't deliver sufficient funding for our core public services, and I include the police in that. 381 Let me say this: I was visiting Swansea prison last Thursday morning and talking to the management of the prison and the management of the prison service at that time. And it is clear to me that unless we're able to focus and to set the context of our penal policy within the context of rehabilitation, within the context of the probation service that was raised by the leader of Plaid Cymru at FMQs earlier today, within the context of health services being delivered by the local health boards, within the context of local education providers providing education for people who are currently in prisons, without the context of the police working alongside other blue light services, without the context of being able to join up services and deliver coherence in policy making, we are not being able to deliver a coherent policy in any element of justice. And I think that's a tragedy. It's a tragedy for the people of Wales that successive UK Governments have not been able to deliver a settlement to this place that is necessary and satisfactory to deliver on policing policy and justice policy. That is an absolute tragedy, and I hope that we will see significant changes in the settlement here that will enable us to have that coherence in the future. 382 Let me say this—and Siân Gwenllian was absolutely right in the points she made: that coherence of policy will not be translated into more effective policing, more effective delivery of community safety in our communities, will not be able to provide the protection that our citizens need and deserve and require unless there is sufficient funding of policing services to deliver that. And fundamentally the Treasury and the United Kingdom Conservative Government have failed to deliver the cash on the basis of the words that they— 383
17:20 An Assembly Member rose— 384 }
Alun Davies AM
I won't take any more interventions. I tried earlier. It didn't work well. We had more heat than light, I'm afraid, and I won't take any future interventions from the Conservative benches. What I will accept from the Conservative benches is that if they are willing to give us their word that they will join all the other political parties in this place and argue for decent funding for the police, then I'll be happy to take an intervention from behind me, but I doubt if I'll see that. 385 In seeking support this afternoon and commending the settlement to the Assembly, Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to say this: Wales needs and deserves a settlement that works for the people of Wales; the policing services and the police forces across the whole of Wales deserve our continued support, and we will provide that continued support; the Welsh Government will continue to play its role in working alongside all our police forces; I will seek to take forward a new policy and working arrangements in Wales to bring our police forces together to enable us to deliver Welsh responses to Welsh problems; I want to take forward community safety and justice policy; and I want, and I will continue to argue with the United kingdom Conservative Government for, decent funding for our police forces. Thank you very much. 386
Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer
Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 387 Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. |