Urgent question (Commons) on Office for Students: Appointment - Jan 8

Joseph Johnson 

I always listen closely to what my right hon. Friend, the Chair of the Education Committee, has to say, and I will look carefully at the article he has with him. Mr Young has expressed his regret and has apologised unreservedly for comments that, in some cases, were made in the 1980s. These are often very old writings and old pieces of work. I think that it is more helpful to Members if we focus on what he does rather than what he says. He has been a champion of students and of children with disabilities in mainstream education. He has a brother with learning disabilities and is a patron of the residential care home in which his brother lives, so we should not characterise him in the crude terms that Opposition Members have used. His deeds matter much more than the terms and the tweets that he has disowned.

Several hon. Members rose— 

Mr Speaker 

Order. Using language slightly loosely, the Minister referred at the outset to how the shadow Minister had called this debate. On advice, I gently remind the House that this is not supposed to be a debate or, therefore, the occasion for speeches either from the Back Benches or the Front Benches; it is a time for pithy questions and answers, to which I know we will now return with enthusiasm.

Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op) 

rose—

Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP) 

rose—

Mr Speaker 

I call Mr Alan Brown.

Alan Brown 

Happy new year, Mr Speaker.

This appointment sums up this incompetent Government. Toby Young is a Tory crony, and the Department for Education exaggerated his qualifications. He thinks teachers have it easy. He has shown prejudice against the working class. He has written several misogynistic tweets and, as we have heard, talked about masturbating to Comic Relief images of children in Africa. When that came to light, the reaction of Tory MPs, including the Foreign Secretary, was to defend him.

Young himself does not seem to care. He has not made a full apology, and he says that most of the tweets are several years old, which also seems to be the Minister’s attitude. Frankly, the Minister is putting his head in the sand. It was only two years ago that Toby Young was writing about eugenics for the working class. This House is supposed to be trying to be seen to clean up its act and Conservative Members were only too keen to call for action against the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Jared O'Mara) when his inappropriate tweets were made public, so the rank hypocrisy is absolutely stinking.

It has been suggested that Toby Young is on a yellow card, so will the Minister tell us what constitutes a red card? Will this appointment process be reviewed? What will the Government do to allay the concerns of the National Education Union, of students and of the wider general public? And when will the Government lead by example?

Joseph Johnson 

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Prime Minister’s remarks yesterday on “The Andrew Marr Show.” The Prime Minister was absolutely explicit that she expects no repetition of any of the remarks, comments or utterances that have been the subject of considerable attention over the past week. Any member of the board of the Office for Students who says such things will no longer carry on in that position, and that will be the position going forward.

Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con) 

What account did the independent appointment process take of the public views of candidates, particularly when those views might be so clearly at odds with the equality principles that the Government clearly support?

Joseph Johnson 

Of course, the Office for Students is there to represent all interests in our higher education system. The Higher Education and Research Act 2017 puts an obligation on the Secretary of State to have regard to a wide range of factors in making such appointments, including that board members must reflect the broad range of higher education providers, those who experience higher education—the students—and those, such as taxpayers and businesses, who either pay for higher education or are on the receiving end of its product in the flow of graduates into the workforce. The Government are, of course, attentive to reactions to appointments to the board, and we want the board to be highly effective in delivering on the core duties of the Office for Students.

Lucy Powell 

rose—

Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) 

rose—

Mr Speaker 

I call Afzal Khan.

Afzal Khan 

Toby labelled Islam a “deeply misogynistic religion,” and he referred to the choice of some Muslim women to adopt the hijab as forced by male oppression. At a time when many more young British Muslim women are entering higher education, do the Government consider it appropriate to appoint such a person to the Office for Students? What is the likelihood that Toby Young will command the respect of Muslim women in higher education who wear the hijab?

Mr Speaker 

The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) looked almost inconsolable not to be called. It is true that I was looking in her direction at an earlier stage and might very well do so again, but it would be a pity to squander her at too early a stage of our proceeding. I am saving her up.

Joseph Johnson 

In response to the question of the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Khan), and to many other questions that might relate to individual tweets, articles or comments made by Mr Young over a long period of time, the answer is basically the same. Mr Young has acknowledged, and the Government have recognised, that much of what he said was foolish, wrong, offensive or obnoxious, and it is right that he has apologised and expressed regret for what he has said, written and done. It clearly does not reflect the values of the Office for Students or of the Government, but it is also important to recognise that, since he made many of those remarks, he has continued to make a valuable contribution to our education system, to the work of the Fulbright Commission and to the network of free schools across the country, and it is for that reason that he has been appointed to the board of the Office for Students.

Several hon. Members rose— 

Mr Speaker 

I welcome the hon. Member for Morley and Outwood on her return from maternity leave, and let me say that it was a pleasure to attend her wedding.

Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con) 

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It was good to have you at the wedding. Labour Members feign outrage at Mr Young’s use of social media, but perhaps they should look at the way their own Labour activists and Momentum have treated other candidates, including during the general election. I got attacked by someone called “Corbyn Chick” for being an unmarried mother—where are the family values there? Perhaps Labour Members—[Interruption.] Perhaps if they listened rather than shouted—[Interruption.] Perhaps they should look at how their own Momentum activists and Labour party activists treat other candidates on social media. Why the hypocrisy?

Joseph Johnson 

My hon. Friend makes an important point about double standards, because misogyny and misogynistic attitudes are rampant on the Labour Benches, as has been acknowledged by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips), who has described a persistent pattern of

“low-level non-violent misogyny”

at the top of the Labour party. It is important that Labour Members—[Interruption.] That is what she said. It is important that Labour Members do not apply double standards when addressing this question. [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker 

Order. I just say to the shadow Transport Secretary: sir, if you were a motor car, you would go from 0 to 60 in about five seconds. It is a discernible trait that I have discerned in you over a period of years and I wish to help you with this condition. Calm yourself. Just be a little calmer. There are many, many hours to go and there are many important developments to take place. Now, after due patience having been exercised, I call Lucy Powell.

Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op) 

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Young’s comments over the past few months and years speak for themselves, and the Government are making a gross misjudgement in now trying to defend them, but let us just take a moment to look at his record, as the Minister is so keen to talk to us about it. If he looked at the data dashboard for the West London Free School, he would find that progress 8 at that school is, in fact, average, and that its percentage of children on the pupil premium is below that for Hammersmith and Fulham and well below that for inner London. Perhaps that is why the school has only just got a “good” rating from Ofsted. I could give the Minister the names of many, many more people with much more experience, so is this not a case of “chumocracy”, as the right hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) rightly said?

Joseph Johnson 

We have armchair critics who do not do half as much good as Mr Young does for disadvantaged students in London and across the country. The hon. Lady has questioned the record of the West London Free School, but its GCSE results for 2016 put it in the top 10% of all English schools in the country.

Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con) 

I am afraid that I feel Mr Young’s comments do cross a line and are indicative of an underlying character. We are talking about the kind of person who would tweet comments to a woman about masturbating over images of refugees—this does just cross a line. I feel that he should withdraw. When we apply for jobs, we all say whether or not there is anything in our past that could cause embarrassment. If that question was asked and it was answered “no”, there is clearly a case for the board revisiting this and asking him to step down.

Joseph Johnson 

I recognise that, as I have said, many of the tweets have been obnoxious and repellent in many ways—obviously, I have not seen all 40,000 of them—but it is also important to recognise that that tweet was probably eight or nine years old, since which time Mr Young has been on something of a developmental journey. It is possible that there is a capacity for reform, and we want to encourage Mr Young to develop the best sides of his personality—those that have led to him setting up good schools and to working with disadvantaged children in London so that they can make the most of their potential. It is for those reasons that he has been appointed to the board.

Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab) 

There is a fault line in politics, with those who want a modern democracy with people appointed on their merit rather than their mates on one side, and I am surprised that the Minister, who is meant to be a serious person, finds himself on the other side.

I ask the Minister specifically about Mr Young’s comments in the past two to three years, which the Select Committee Chairman raised, and in which Mr Young advocated what he called “progressive eugenics”—not in 2009, but in 2015. He repeated that in November 2017. The comments were removed by the Teach First website and he claimed that he had been no-platformed and censored. Does that sound like someone remorseful, who is suitable for public office? Why on earth has the Minister done this, not only to his and the Prime Minister’s credibility, but to that of the Office for Students?

Joseph Johnson 

Mr Young’s work on behalf of disadvantaged and disabled students speaks for itself. He has championed inclusion in the educational institutions that he has set up. I cannot speak for the content of specific articles or tweets because, frankly, there are too many, and he has apologised for any offence he has caused, but I think that we should judge him by what he does—more so than we are currently doing.

David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con) 

Will the Minister confirm that Toby Young has never used social media to tweet bomb threats against rival politicians, unlike one member of the Labour party, who is named in the newspapers today, and that some of the outrage is little more than an extension of the “no platform” policy used to drive anyone with a right of centre view out of the university sector?

Joseph Johnson 

My hon. Friend makes an important point, the same one that was made a few moments ago, which is essentially that double standards are being applied here. Opposition Members should look at their use of social media—for example, the appalling slurs on Conservative candidates that are frequently levelled before a general election, and the deception targeted at students about the Labour party’s intentions on student fees and tuition debt. They should consider their record on social media before criticising others.

Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) 

Does the Minister suggest that, simply because Mr Young, under pressure, has now apologised for his dark and dangerous comments, he no longer holds the views that he has held for many years?

Joseph Johnson 

Mr Young has apologised, as the hon. Lady said. He has said that he regrets the comments, which suggests that he has moved on. He has also committed to not repeating those comments and accepted the reality that if he does, he will no longer be publicly appointed to the Office for Students board.

Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con) 

The Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee oversees the public appointments process and we hold the public appointments commissioner accountable for the conduct of the code. This is a timely reminder that public appointments are to be held accountable. Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the panel had the due diligence they should have had when they made their appointment? What representations has he received from any member of the panel about the appointment since it was made?

Joseph Johnson 

I thank my hon. Friend for his questions. The panel was correctly composed. As I said earlier, it consisted of a senior civil servant from the Department for Education, Sir Michael Barber himself and an independent panel member. They conducted the interview with Mr Young in the same manner as they conducted interviews with other candidates and found him appointable. In respect of due diligence, one has to look at what is reasonable and proportionate for a panel to do. Neither I nor the Department were aware of the offensive tweets before the appointment was made, but there is nothing unusual about that. Many of the remarks were made years—in some cases, decades—ago and it is not reasonable or proportionate for the Government to trawl through tens of thousands of tweets over many years when making public appointments.

Laura Smith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab) 

As a woman and as the mother of a young girl, I am appalled that the Minister and the Prime Minister deem it suitable to appoint such a man to this position. He has joked about anal rape of women. He talks about women’s breasts constantly on Twitter. Will the Minister not join me in condemning this misogynistic view from someone who will be in a position of power and show all those young girls who look to the Government that it is simply not good enough?

Joseph Johnson 

I agree with the sentiments the hon. Lady has expressed. Those comments and tweets are obviously obnoxious and repellent, and that is why it is right that Mr Young has apologised for them, it is right that he has expressed regret for them and it is right that he has committed not to repeat them at the risk of being immediately dismissed from the Office for Students board.

Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) 

I have been interested to hear the Minister’s answers. Can he reassure me about what evidence he took in relation to Mr Young’s current appointment as a Fulbright commissioner and what reassurances he has that some of the behaviour we have discussed this afternoon will not be repeated?

Joseph Johnson 

Mr Young does important work on the Fulbright Commission. He is a commissioner and has been reappointed to that role as a result of the good work he has done. That carries on. As I said earlier, Sir Nigel Sheinwald, the chair of the Fulbright Commission, has described Mr Young as an effective, committed and energetic commissioner and seen no evidence that the historic remarks—going back many years—have influenced him in discharging his duties responsibly on behalf of disadvantaged young people. He does very good work in promoting social mobility through the Fulbright Commission’s work with the Sutton Trust and other organisations.

Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) 

The Minister asks us to judge Mr Young by what he does. As one of the many women who have had personal, repeated and recent experiences of his ability to lose friends and alienate people, I say to the Minister that an undergraduate student would know that it is not evidence enough of a change in behaviour for someone simply—when they have been caught out—to say sorry. Every educationist would say to the Minister that rewarding bad behaviour, as he is, sends a terrible message to our universities about the standards we accept. What more does Mr Young have to say before the Minister realises that he deserves to stay on Twitter, not in teaching?

Joseph Johnson 

Since Mr Young made many of these comments and wrote these articles—which, in most cases, predate 2010—he has been appointed to the Fulbright Commission, he has been reappointed to the Fulbright Commission, he has been made director of a leading education charity and he has done important work setting up schools in west London that are delivering great outcomes for young people. That is what we should judge him by, not foolish and obnoxious tweets from the distant past.

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con) 

My constituents have no time for unpleasant and obscene remarks, no matter who makes them. Will the Minister ensure that all appointees to the board, including this one, have as one of their first priorities a close examination of the obscene levels of executive pay for some of the senior personnel in the higher and further education sectors, which many students regard as completely outrageous?

Joseph Johnson 

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and it is a priority for the Office for Students to address the spiralling top-level and vice chancellor pay in our institutions. It featured in the regulatory framework consultation, which closed shortly before Christmas, and will be prominent in the regulatory framework when that is published later in the spring.

Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab) 

The problem is that this man thought it was okay to publicly leer at women’s bodies while they were in the workplace, including tweeting repeatedly about women, about their knockers, their breasts, their boobs, their baps—on and on. What does it say to women and young girls across the country that a Minister is defending that—including when this man attacked a woman MP in this House in that way? Instead, why does not the Minister stand with women across the world who are saying to men like this that their time is up?

Joseph Johnson 

The Government have condemned the tweets. Mr Young has apologised for them. Any repetition of language of that kind will not be tolerated.

Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Con) 

I suspect I am one of the few people in the Chamber who has been to the West London Free School. I saw there for myself the outstanding work that Toby and his team have delivered, and they have done that blind to people’s background and wealth, to the colour of their skin and to the creed that they practice. Does the Minister agree that that record deserves to be honoured and recognised? The comments were wrong, but those deeds need to be respected and they give Toby a credible platform for taking that office.

Joseph Johnson 

My hon. Friend is right to laud Mr Young’s achievements at the West London Free School, where the 38.5% of children who receive the pupil premium have done better than the national average for pupils on the pupil premium in both this most recent year and the previous one. Mr Young has created an inclusive environment. A parent governor at the school described him as

“committed to public education, academic excellence, and greater opportunities for kids from lower incomes.”

Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab) 

I am usually the first to congratulate my constituents on their achievements, but even Toby Young’s Acton address cannot save him on this one. In his column in The Spectator on 9 December—not historical, but mere days before his appointment—he boasted

“what a Big Swinging Dick I am.”

The column was titled “The subtle art of showing off at work”. How does that and the fact that his West London Free School has gone through five headteachers in almost as many years make him qualified for this post?

Joseph Johnson 

Had Opposition Members done half as much as Mr Young has to promote outcomes for disadvantaged students, they would be in a better position to disparage his achievements. Mr Young’s school has done better than the national average for its pupils on the pupil premium in both this most recent year and the last. That is something of which he can be rightly proud.

Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) 

The Minister is at pains to say that this appointment was Nolan compliant. It is standard practice in modern times for employers to look carefully at the social media profile of those they appoint, particularly to public office. What due diligence was carried out? Were those who appointed Mr Young to the post aware of these obnoxious tweets? If so, what was it about him that made him so uniquely qualified for this post over those without such an obnoxious social media profile?

Joseph Johnson 

As I have said, the competition through which Toby Young was appointed was rigorous, open and fair. Like all the interviews, his was conducted by a panel consisting of the three people I have mentioned. It was an apolitical and independent-minded board of panellists who deemed Toby Young worthy of appointment.

Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab) 

The Minister really is seeking to defend the indefensible. As a former Minister for Disabled People, I am appalled at some of Mr Young’s recently expressed views about the place of disabled people in our society. The Minister has said that many of Mr Young’s misogynistic tweets were from many years ago, but his views about disabled people are very recent indeed. How can the Minister appoint somebody who thinks so little of the contribution of disabled people to our society to such an important position? Does he not agree that it is indefensible?

Joseph Johnson 

As I have already said, Mr Young has been a champion of the inclusion of children with disabilities in mainstream education. Not only that, but outside his work with schools, he is a patron of the residential care home in which lives his brother, who has learning disabilities of his own.

Several hon. Members rose— 

Mr Speaker 

Order. I am looking to end these exchanges at quarter past 5, so Members need to be very brief.

Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab) 

The Ministers says that he condemns Toby’s Young’s past comments, but the only appropriate condemnation would be to remove him from the board of the Office for Students. Does the Minister agree that a suitable replacement would be a representative from the University and College Union, so that university staff have a voice on the board?

Joseph Johnson 

No, that would not be appropriate. I take the same view that the shadow Education Secretary took with respect to the comments of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Jared O'Mara) when she said that he deserved a second chance and that she was happy to sit alongside him because the comments happened a long time ago. In her words,

“People do change their views... it is important that they recognise that and apologise and correct that behaviour.”

That is what we are expecting Toby Young to do.

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab) 

If a Minister of the Crown were guilty of making these filthy and obnoxious remarks, would the Minister expect him to resign?

Joseph Johnson 

Going forward, the Nolan principles of public life will be applicable to Toby Young. He will be holding a public office, as a board member of the Office for Students. That is why it has been made very clear to him and to other board members of the Office for Students that if they make these kinds of objectionable comments and remarks they will be in breach of those principles and would not be able to continue in their positions.

Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con) 

I wonder whether the Minister can assist Members in this way: does he think that the good people of Broxtowe are more interested in the obnoxious tweets of somebody who made those tweets many years ago but who nevertheless has an important position than they are in learning about the NHS crisis, which has affected almost everybody in this country?

Joseph Johnson 

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. Labour’s priorities are curious. We have had not a word from the leadership of the party about what is going on in Iran, for example, and it is focusing instead on its feigned outrage over Toby Young. It should really focus on the priorities facing this country, not these second order ones.

Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab) 

The Minister said earlier that, in appointments to this board, there was a desire to represent the broad range of higher education providers. Why did he find space for such a controversial appointment, but no space for somebody with FE experience, when so many students are in further education?

Joseph Johnson 

The board is representative of a broad range of higher education providers, as it is required to be under the terms of the Higher Education and Research Act 2017. It contains a vice-chancellor of the University of the West of England; a former vice-chancellor of BPP University; the chair of council at an arts college, the Rose Bruford College; and a senior figure from an Oxford college, who happens to be the bursar and also a director at the Oxford Centre for Higher Education Policy Studies. It is well representative of the excellent diversity of our higher education system.

Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab) 

May I gently remind the Minister that abuse comes to all candidates, not just Conservative ones? I truly want to believe that this House takes allegations of sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour in the workplace seriously, but how can I when the Minister is continuing with the appointment of this misogynist man who thinks that it is appropriate constantly to tweet about women’s breasts, anal rape and masturbating over images of starving children?

Joseph Johnson 

I do not see why we should take lessons from the Labour party on these matters. Let us take, for example, the case of the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who made some extraordinarily intemperate and misogynistic comments about my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Ms McVey). They were too vile to repeat, but typical of what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) described as the persistent,

“low-level, non-violent misogyny”

at the top of the Labour party.