Scottish Independence Referendum Private Notice Question 3.06
pm Asked by Lord West of Spithead To ask
Her Majesty’s Government what response has been given to the
Scottish First Minister in response to her request for a further
referendum on Scottish independence. The Parliamentary
Under-Secretary of State, Northern...Request free trial
Scottish Independence Referendum
Private Notice Question
3.06 pm
Asked by
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what response has been
given to the Scottish First Minister in response to her
request for a further referendum on Scottish independence.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern
Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop)
(Con)
My Lords, a little over two years ago people in Scotland
voted decisively to remain part of our United Kingdom in a
referendum. The UK Government remain of the view that there
should not be a further referendum on independence. Even at
this late hour we call on the Scottish Government to take
it off the table. Another referendum would be divisive and
cause huge economic uncertainty at the worst possible time.
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(Lab)
My Lords—
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(Lab)
My Lords, I should declare that I lived in Scotland for
many years and was educated there. Does the Minister not
agree that, to give clarity to the people of Scotland, if a
referendum is allowed it is essential that it is held after
the Brexit negotiations are completed, not in the midst of
complex negotiations with no ability whatever to understand
the implications of the detailed agreements being worked
on?
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I am sure that the noble Lord received a very good Scottish
education. Regarding the negotiations, said yesterday that she wanted the UK to get a
good deal. I can think of nothing more calculated to
undermine the achievement of a good deal than holding a
divisive and disruptive independence referendum during the
last six months of one of the most important peacetime
negotiations this country has ever faced. At this time we
should be working together to get the best possible deal
for the whole of the UK and each part of it, particularly
Scotland.
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My Lords, I was in a rush because I understand I have only
a minute or so. The most important point is that there is
no desire in Scotland for another referendum. It is simply
not in Scotland’s best interest, especially not at a time
when we need stability and a period of relative calm, not
yet more uncertainty. Before the 2014 vote the SNP said
that the referendum was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity
and promised that it would abide by the result. The fact is
that ever since it lost in 2014 the SNP has been agitating
for another referendum and will seize upon any excuse.
Scottish Labour MSPs will oppose a second referendum in the
Scottish Parliament, but if it is successful and comes here
the will not oppose it. But
we certainly call on tough negotiations—tougher than the
last time—over the timing and the question, because it is
quite clear that Mr ran rings around the
then Prime Minister. If the Government want any advice on
negotiations, I am available.
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I know that the noble Lord’s reputation goes before him, so
I thank him for that offer. I strongly agree with what he
said. We must respect the result of the independence
referendum that took place in 2014. As and said, it was a once-in-a-generation vote. Both
sides signed the Edinburgh agreement, which committed to
respect that result. Only two-and-a-half years after that
vote, which was won by more than 10 points—a result that
was fair, legal and decisive—the First Minister is now
calling for another vote. All the evidence is quite clear
that people in Scotland overwhelmingly do not want another
divisive, disruptive referendum. They know the damage that
it would do to the Scottish economy and Scottish jobs,
taking the eye off the ball of the domestic agenda:
schools, hospitals and getting the economy going again.
That is what we should focus on.
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(LD)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is no
justification for a second independence referendum and that
the best way for that to be made clear is for the UK
Government to make a simple, clear statement to the
Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people on that issue?
It is not what people in Scotland want, not now nor after
Brexit. The SNP should stand by the Edinburgh agreement and
stick to their word—that this was once in a generation, not
a “neverendum” to be repeated and repeated. What we on
these Benches and the people of Scotland want is a Scottish
Government focusing on better outcomes for the people of
Scotland on health and education, not what is best for the
SNP and its obsession with independence.
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The UK Government and the Prime Minister could not be
clearer: we do not think there that should be a further
referendum on independence, for all the reasons that the
noble Lord and others have given. Even at this late stage,
the Scottish Government can and should take that referendum
off the table.
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(Con)
My Lords, should we not remind the First Minister of
Scotland that the Prime Minister is Prime Minister of
Scotland as well as of the rest of the United Kingdom and
that the worst possible way to help her get the best deal
for the United Kingdom and for Scotland within it is to
attack her at the outset of these important negotiations?
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I very much agree with my noble friend. The Prime Minister
will work tirelessly to secure the best possible deal for
the whole UK and, as she has said, for every part of it.
This is a time to work together to that end, not to sow
division and difference.
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(Lab)
My Lords, in the past half-hour, I have received an email
from a leading player in the Scottish commercial property
market to say that, overnight, £50 million worth of deals
have been withdrawn as a consequence of the possibility of a
Scottish referendum. Does the Minister agree with me that,
when the Scottish economy is already weakened, when we are
seriously troubled about our education and our health
sectors, the First Minister’s action is one of unpardonable
folly?
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Yes, I agree with the noble Baroness. I meet many Scottish
businesses and have yet to find one which thinks that it is a
good idea to engender such uncertainty by calling for another
independence referendum. It should be a matter of concern for
all of us that the economic data for Scotland show that the
Scottish economy is lagging behind the rest of the UK. Those
data started coming out before the vote last June. It is a
matter that we should attend to. The UK Government are
committed to working with the Scottish Government to focus on
those issues, which are so important for the Scottish
economy.
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(Lab)
Has the Minister noticed, however, that the arguments being
used by for pulling Scotland out of the United Kingdom
are exactly the same as those used by for pulling the United
Kingdom out of the European Union? Does that not create a
problem for the Government?
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The problem for us is an SNP Government, with their one-track
mind, using the pretext of Brexit to pursue their obsession
with taking Scotland out of the United Kingdom. We know that
the UK market is worth four times more to Scottish businesses
than the EU market.
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(LD)
My Lords, in view of the unexpected taciturnity of the noble
Lord, Lord West, would the Minister care to hazard a guess as
to the consequences for warship building on the Clyde in the
event of independence?
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Hurrah!
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Some very positive investment announcements have been made
regarding the Clyde. It is the centre of excellence for
surface warship building and that would not happen if
Scotland were ripped out of the United Kingdom.
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(UUP)
My Lords, is it not the case that nationalists in Northern
Ireland have welcomed the decision of the Scottish
Government, and are now trying to see whether they could have
a pincer movement and have both referenda at the same time?
Is it not clear that the Government are going to have to take
a much more robust position? Will the Minister confirm that
neither a Scottish referendum nor a Northern Ireland border
poll will be held?
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I have made the position on a Scottish referendum absolutely
clear. With regard to Northern Ireland, there are clear
mechanisms under the Belfast agreement for the holding of a
border poll. My right honourable friend the Northern Ireland
Secretary has been very clear that the conditions for such a
poll do not exist.
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(PC)
My Lords—
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(Lab)
The last referendum left a deep legacy in Scotland of
division that affected families, friendships and communities.
During that referendum, there was regularly a real problem of
aggression and, occasionally, violence. Can the Government
guarantee that, in any discussions that take place over these
next two years about the possibility of another referendum in
Scotland, they will keep uppermost in their mind the need to
ensure that any debates are conducted properly and that the
leadership of those debates behaves in a way that inspires
people positively?
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All political debates should take place with courtesy and
respect; the Government would obviously want to promote and
uphold that. The key question here, however, is whether there
should be another Scottish independence referendum. The
Government are absolutely clear that there should not be.
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