Asked by Lord Lucas To ask Her Majesty’s
Government whether they will commission a feasibility study to
consider converting the entire Southern Rail network to a roadway
for autonomous vehicles. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of
State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon)
(Con) My Lords, we have no current plans to commission
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Asked by
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will commission
a feasibility study to consider converting the entire
Southern Rail network to a roadway for autonomous vehicles.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, we have no current plans to commission such a
study. However, we are investing more than £100 million in
research and development into connected and autonomous
vehicles, and a further £100 million into testing
infrastructure. We have commenced a programme of regulatory
reforms that will keep pace with changes in technology as it
comes to market. We continue to invest in our national rail
infrastructure through transformative projects such as
Thameslink and Crossrail to meet ever-increasing passenger
demand.
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(Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for the
access he gave me to Department for Transport officials and
contractors, and congratulate him on the progress being made
by his autonomous vehicle projects. Does he agree that the
successful pilot currently under way at Heathrow demonstrates
the potential of autonomous vehicles to serve on a branch
line such as Lewes to Seaford, and that if we demonstrate
success on that line, the technology would suit the
peripheral parts of the Southern network very well? If we
succeed at that, we will be in a great position in an
industry with worldwide applications, which is just what we
are trying to with the industrial strategy.
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My Lords, of course we welcome the cutting-edge nature of
transport innovation in the rail sector. In particular my
noble friend talked about the new systems and operations at
Heathrow and the pods being used there. There are also other
parts of the rail network such as the DLR and the new rolling
stock from Siemens that will be coming on line on Thameslink.
There will be a use of technology and autonomous vehicles in
what I believe will be controlled environments. He mentioned
further innovations on the wider network. We need to see how
technology can be adapted on existing systems while
recognising that the interface with the people who work in
the rail sector is equally important, and look at how their
skills can be adapted in line with the technologies we are
now seeing across the system.
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(Con)
My Lords, is there any function of a train driver that cannot
theoretically be safely automated?
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My Lords, as I have already said, the DfT is not looking at
any particular study. Train drivers across the network,
across the country and beyond play a very important role. We
are seeing the outlay and the new driver-only operated trains
coming on board. As I have already said, we need to embrace
technology and look at how the employee interface works with
it. We are seeing some very good examples across the country.
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(Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister not think that a very good
example can be found from 54 years ago in Admiralty Fleet
Order 150/63 —action to be taken in the instance of being
bitten by a snake? When one looks at the southern region, the
first bit of advice is “Kill the snake”.
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I regret to say that I am not familiar with the order that
the noble Lord has mentioned, nor with its related nature. As
I often say to him, in the interests of education, I will
look up that order when I return to the department.
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(Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, in trying to
achieve autonomous vehicles, we should not only look at
roads; they have uses not only on rail lines but in
agricultural and marine environments, where there will be
huge opportunities for connected and autonomous vehicles,
although possibly short of full autonomy?
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My noble friend is quite right to suggest that. He mentioned
roads and I agree. As a Government, we are already trialling
connected and autonomous vehicles. To digress for a moment,
it is quite a strange sensation when you sit in an autonomous
car for the first time, knowing that you are no longer
directly in control. My noble friend talks about other uses.
In my own area of transport—aviation—the autopilot has been
used extensively. There is a need to see how we can embrace
technology in an innovative way across all transport modes,
while recognising that in certain circumstances controlled
interaction is also important.
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(LD)
My Lords, yesterday Transport Focus announced its latest
survey results, which showed the satisfaction level with the
way in which Southern trains deals with delays to be down to
12%. It also referred to the timetable for London and the
south-east of England as, in many cases, a work of fiction.
Therefore, I have some sympathy with the imagination that the
noble Lord, , has applied to this
Question. However, if autonomous vehicles develop as
promised—and as the Government wish them to, as indicated by
the Minister—they will be on our roads by 2025. What are the
Government doing to prepare our legal structures and road
system for this revolution?
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The noble Baroness referred to Southern rail. I am sure that
across the House we welcome the fact that one of the two
unions is now sitting down to talk. That will be welcomed not
just by those who use the network and who have particularly
suffered over a long period but by us all. We hope that the
result of those discussions will be positive. She talked
about the importance of innovation and autonomous vehicles
coming on line. Of course, she is right to raise insurance
and other areas related to the use of such technology. The
DfT is investing a great deal of time in research and
development and in talking to the industry in exactly the way
that she has suggested.
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(Lab)
Before Southern rail tracks are tarmacked over, perhaps I may
again take the opportunity to ask the Government the question
that I asked the other week but to which I received
absolutely no answer—namely, what financial penalties has
Southern rail or its holding company, Govia, had to pay for
poor performance unrelated to industrial action over the last
18 months under the terms of the franchise agreement
providing for them to operate the rail service?
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As the noble Lord is aware—we have already had an exchange on
this—first, we hold the company to account. My honourable
friend the Rail Minister meets the company once a week.
Secondly, we have levied penalties in accordance with the
current contract. Thirdly, as he is fully aware, the operator
has invoked force majeure clauses. We need to look at each
case before we decide on further action, and that work is
nearly complete. However, to put it into context, as some
noble Lords may know, there were 10,000 different cases and
claims of force majeure between April and June, and that
underlines the challenge that we face.
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(Lab)
Does the Minister agree that anyone who suggests that we
close railway lines should be referred back to the vandalism
of the Beeching era, when thousands of miles of track were
closed, viaducts were smashed up and tunnels were filled in?
Now many communities up and down the country are trying to
reopen lines that were closed. Perhaps that is a lesson that
everyone should take on board.
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The noble Lord is right. Indeed there are lines that were
disused in the past that we are currently looking at to see
how they can be brought back into service. I do not think any
noble Lord, including my noble friend, has at any time
suggested closing or tarmacking over railways lines. Instead
we are trying to see how we can use innovation and technology
in adapting for our railways of the future.
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