Asked by
of Spithead
To ask His Majesty's Government whether the Tempest Global Combat
Air Programme will be halted until the Strategic Defence Review
is completed and its future decided.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence () (Lab)
No, GCAP will not be halted, in answer to my noble friend.
Progress continues. I met partners yesterday at Farnborough, as
did the Prime Minister, emphasising its importance. The Defence
Secretary met Ministers from Italy and Japan today to discuss
developments, including economic growth and skills, and business
will be taken through by SI in the next few days, subject to
Parliament's agreement, to implement the GCAP convention.
of Spithead (Lab)
I thank my noble friend the Minister for his Answer. Of course, I
understand that the mechanism of this programme has to move
ahead, not least for diplomatic and political reasons, but would
he assure me that, in the context of the strategic defence
review, nothing is off the table, apart from the fact that we
maintain a nuclear deterrent? That was what was said,
effectively—so everything will be looked at. There must be
serious concerns about the operational requirement for this
system, which is not clearly articulated. How many platforms will
be required, finally, and how many aircraft? That is not
articulated. The costs are pretty open, I have to say, and it
really does need to be looked at.
(Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his important Question. The
strategic defence review is a root-and-branch review to look at
the capabilities that our Armed Forces will need as they meet the
threats of a changing world. It will look at defence in the
round—and, of course, it will look at programmes across the whole
of defence. Can I just pick up on one point from my noble friend?
As he says, in the review we do emphasise the importance of the
deterrent as well as support for Ukraine and AUKUS.
(CB)
With the global combat air programme, will due weight be accorded
to the importance of breaking into the Japanese defence programme
for the first time in any substantial way, with the associated
financial and technological benefits that will bring and the
linkages it will create in a crucial strategic area?
(Lab)
I thank the noble and gallant Lord for his question and thank him
in anticipation of the sorts of thoughtful comments that he will
make and the help that he will give to me and others as we seek
to defend our country in the best possible way. He makes a really
important point on the GCAP. It is an important alliance between
Japan, Italy and ourselves that gives us the opportunity to work
with Japan and others—but in particular Japan—to develop that
technological progress and partnership, which will be so
important as we take this programme forward.
(Con)
I declare my interests as in the register. Would the Minister
agree that, recently, Japanese industry and its economy and the
British economy have been getting on extremely well, with
increased co-operation—much better than way back before the
Brexit interruption? Would he agree that the sources of our
biggest productivity increases of the past 50 years were when we
were getting massive Japanese investment in the 1970s and 1980s?
In the light of both those thoughts, does he accept that we must
be very careful in continuing this progress and doing nothing
impetuous that undermines the close co-operation that the
Japanese want to have with us and are seeking in many other areas
as well?
(Lab)
As I said in answer to the question from the noble and gallant
Lord—and the noble Lord makes the point for himself—the
relationship between ourselves and Japan is extremely important.
The technological advantage that both the UK and Japan get from
our close partnership is extremely important. As I said in answer
to the original Question, progress continues on the GCAP with the
other partner, Italy. A strategic defence review will look at all
the various programmes, but progress continues.
of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord to his place. When he and I
sat on adjacent Benches, we tended to agree. I always had the
benefit of being able to piggyback on his comments before I asked
my questions, so I very much hope that we will continue to agree
across the Chamber. The only slight problem this afternoon is
that, in answering the Question from the noble Lord, , he took away all the questions I
was going to ask about diplomatic relations with Italy and Japan
by giving an answer that I think is welcome. On the review, we
clearly need to think about diplomatic questions and questions
about our defence industrial base. While the defence review is
going on, what security are His Majesty's Government giving to
defence contractors that the work being undertaken on various
programmes will continue? Clearly, not just our international
partners but defence contractors will be concerned.
(Lab)
I very much hope that the noble Baroness and I can carry on
working together. Without being pompous about it, all of us
across this Chamber share an interest in the defence of our
country and in freedom and democracy across Europe and the world.
Working together is extremely important. On her question about
the defence industry, she may have seen that yesterday the Prime
Minister announced Skills England, which will work with the
defence industry and defence companies to overcome one of the
biggest hurdles this country faces: the skills shortage, which we
have been trying to overcome for a number of years. Redoubling
our efforts on that will make a huge difference—but that is just
one example of how we intend to work with the industry.
(Con)
My Lords, is there not a great risk that the sixth-generation jet
fighter will be yet another white elephant, with escalating costs
that will completely distort the defence budget—very similar to
the aircraft carriers ordered by the noble Lord, ?
(Lab)
Of course, the defence review will look at defence in the round,
but it is really important that this country looks at what the
next generation fighter should be. That is an important step.
Looking back in history, the Typhoon was at one time a project on
a research board and, before that, it was the Tornado. If memory
serves me correctly, the Phantom was the fighter programme before
that. Our industry and research programmes are the envy of the
world. Of course these programmes need to come in on budget, make
sense and meet the threats of the future, but looking at what the
global combat aircraft of the future should be is an important
part of any defence review.
Lord (CB)
My Lords, the Prime Minister must have selected his words
extremely carefully when he spoke at Farnborough yesterday, but
the press coverage in this country as a result of the
interpretation of what he said has been depressing, to say the
least. What reaction have the Government had from Japanese and
Italian partners to what the Prime Minister said yesterday?
(Lab)
I certainly know that everyone has been reassured by the Prime
Minister and others saying that progress on these programmes will
continue. The Global Combat Air Programme continues as we speak.
As I said to my noble friend , the defence review will look at
defence in the round, but we will not allow it to paralyse any
work that is going on with respect to defence. We are looking at
it all in the round, as the noble and gallant Lord would expect,
so that we get value for money, deal with some of the problems we
have had and get the capabilities we need to tackle the threats
that we are going to face in future.
(Con)
Would the Minister advise us on what discussions are taking place
to find additional money for the Tempest programme, as even the
partnership with Japan and Italy will not be sufficient to
finance a project of this scale and further finance will be
needed?
(Lab)
Let me just say to the noble Lord that congratulations are due,
to an extent, on the work of the previous Government. So far,
£1.8 billion has been spent on GCAP and £600 million of that has
come from private industry. That is quite a successful way of
ensuring that government and industry can work together in the
furtherance of the defence of our nation.
