Sir Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con) I beg to move, That this
House has considered the recommendations of the Buckland Review
into Autism and Employment; and urges the Government, businesses
and the wider economy to implement them. There, in the words of the
motion, lies the force of the review that I had the honour of
chairing and the report that was published at the end of February.
This was never going to be a bout of navel gazing—an inward-looking
report...Request free trial
Sir (South Swindon) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the recommendations of the
Buckland Review into Autism and Employment; and urges the
Government, businesses and the wider economy to implement
them.
There, in the words of the motion, lies the force of the review
that I had the honour of chairing and the report that was
published at the end of February. This was never going to be a
bout of navel gazing—an inward-looking report that purely viewed
the challenge that faces autistic people in getting a full or
part-time job as a problem, a risk or a challenge—but instead a
massive opportunity not just for all of us who are involved and
who have spent years campaigning for or caring about autistic
people and the wider neurodiverse family, but the wider economy,
businesses small, medium and large, and self-employment. The
question of productivity in our economy has been at the heart of
the economic debate for more years than I care to remember. There
is the issue of economic inactivity. We need to move away from
the rather tired and clichéd argument that views this through the
prism of benefits, rather than the range of talents that autistic
people have, the myriad conditions that are involved, and the
potential that autistic people want to realise in a happy and
healthy workplace.
I put on record my thanks to Stephen Lismore and the team of
civil servants in the Department for Work and Pensions, some of
whom are here today, for their tireless work and support in
marshalling the wealth of evidence that we received—both written
evidence, and evidence from a number of roundtables that we held
during our call for evidence, in person and online, which allowed
people from right across the four nations of the UK to take part.
The list of organisations, businesses and people who helped to
make the review such a rich and stimulating process runs to seven
pages at the back of the document. That tells the House how deep
we wanted to go, and how meaningful we wanted to make the
process.
The review was robustly independent, and we pulled no punches on
the limitations of Government programmes, but the DWP deserves my
thanks for its dedication and support. I am also thankful for the
support of the UK's leading research charity on autism,
Autistica, and of James Cusack and the team there, remembering
that the leadership of that organisation are themselves autistic
people. That was important for me on many levels. The review had
to be led by autistic people, and about autistic people—in other
words, “Nothing about us without us.” I speak not only as a
parliamentarian and a former Minister, but as a parent of a young
woman who will, in due course, face choices, and hopefully be
able to have a job of her own.
Some people will say, “Well, he's only in it because he cares
about his daughter.” I am in it because I care about the hundreds
of thousands of people like her who deserve their chance. They
might not be at the top of the tree in terms of their abilities.
They might not be able to get jobs in MI6 and the security
services, which by the way are really coming to rely on the gifts
that autistic people have. It is about jobs right across the
spectrum, down to part-time jobs that will mean so much to the
people who can do them, and will give their life purpose,
fulfilment and happiness. We must not lose the concept of
happiness in all this. There is a moral case to be made for the
recommendations in the review, but there is also—I make no
apology for this—a hard-edged economic case. What is good for
autistic people will be good for the rest of our society.
(Cities of London and
Westminster) (Con)
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his excellent speech
and his brilliant report. Does he agree that hospitality is an
excellent sector for people with learning difficulties, autism
and so on to consider, and will he join me on a visit to the Fair
Shot café? I extend the invitation to everyone in the Chamber. It
is a social enterprise run by a brilliant young woman, Bianca
Tavella, who set up the organisation to train young people with
learning difficulties to become baristas and café workers, and
has secured jobs for dozens of people. Will he join me one day in
Covent Garden to visit the Fair Shot café?
Sir
If there is tea and cake involved, I am there. I will happily do
that. The point that my hon. Friend makes deals straight away
with the stereotype that autistic people cannot socialise. That
is nonsense. There are myriad types of presentation. The
condition will sometimes present itself in that way, but not
always. Plenty of autistic people can and do work in the
hospitality sector, in an outward-facing, communications-based
job that works really well for them.
Exploding some of those myths is important not just in this House
but from an employer's point of view. That is really at the heart
of the report: turning risk into opportunity for employers, to
get them to think differently. The terms of reference referred to
autism, but I reassure people who initially wanted a wider
reference to neuro- diversity that that was not forgotten at all.
In fact, a lot of the recommendations have direct read-across to
a wide range of neurodiverse conditions, from attention deficit
disorder to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, dyslexia
and dyspraxia—the whole family of neurodiverse conditions. There
is clearly commonality in the challenges that people face with
recruitment and retention.
In the time that I have, which I have to use economically, let us
start with some of the facts that we uncovered. Only just under
three in 10 autistic adults are in full-time or part-time work.
It is the lowest rate across all disability classes, at about
30%, as opposed to 50% for those with a disability generally. In
late 2012, I led a Backbench Business Committee debate on autism
in this Chamber. I think it was the first debate on autism that
we had ever had in the main Chamber. Then, fewer than one in
seven, maybe about 14% of autistic adults, had full-time
employment. There would seem to have been an improvement, but we
are not comparing like with like. In the years since, we have
seen people in the workforce start to reveal their autism in a
way that they would not have before, which is encouraging, but
let us not forget that we are still talking about the 700,000 or
so who have a diagnosis. A large number of people—probably
hundreds of thousands or even more—perhaps do not have a
diagnosis, and do not even think of themselves as autistic or
neurodiverse in any way. The figures therefore start to get a
little unclear.
Progress has been very, very slow. There is no doubt that, as a
result of Government action and intervention, there has been
improvement, but we are still nowhere near where we need to be.
The question is how we start to move the dial. More on that
shortly. Autistic people have the largest pay gap of all
disability groups. They receive a third less on average than
non-disabled people. I am afraid that that is the experience of
autistic graduates, too, who experience the worst outcomes of all
disability groups. They are the most likely to be overqualified
for their job. They are the most likely to be on zero-hours
contracts or part time. That leads to under motivation, less pay,
unhappiness and a lack of fulfilment. Some 50% of managers
expressed discomfort with the idea of having autistic people in
their workforce, and only 35% of autistic employees were fully
open about being autistic.
Mr (Worcester) (Con)
My right hon. and learned Friend is making an excellent case. I
recently attended a Worcestershire local enterprise partnership
presentation, at which an employer talked about finding that his
expectations of employing autistic people were completely wrong.
When he discovered that one of his employees was autistic, his
whole organisation learned and benefited as a result. It
strengthened the organisation and increased its productivity.
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that many more
employers need to engage on this subject?
Sir
Stories like that can open up a whole new way of thinking to
employers. That is really the beginning of the recommendations
that we make in the report. The power of narrative, and linking
that to creating a wave of change, lies at the heart of the
recommendations. Let me make a final point about the current
situation: about two thirds—61%—of disabled people said that
their Access to Work claim took over three months, and 20% said
that it took over six months. While Access to Work is a great
principle, that is clearly too slow to help change the life of
people who face an immediate job offer, or have an interview
within days, rather than weeks or months.
What is to be done? I have talked about turning risk into
opportunity, but a “universal by design” approach will make the
most difference. We have heard a lot over the years about
autism-friendly environments, and going out of our way to reach
out, understand, and allow people to explain, but that will have
only a limited impact, and only on those people who are
comfortable talking, and prepared to talk, about their autism.
Surely it would be better to have a universal change to the way
in which we recruit and retain employees, so that it embraces not
just those with a diagnosis, but those who do not want to
disclose their diagnosis or do not have one. Suddenly, the number
would then be not 700,000, but probably well over a million—and
that might be a conservative estimate.
What about the recommendations? There are several groups within
our 19 recommendations, but they can be summarised in the
following way. The first group of three recommendations relates
to initiatives to raise awareness, reduce stigma and capitalise
on productivity. We are already working with people, autism
organisations and employer-facing organisations to start that
national campaign with good news stories like the one that we
heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr
Walker).
In certain jobs, autistic staff can be way more productive than
neurotypical staff; statistics show productivity improvements
ranging from 45% to 145%. I am grateful to Autistica for its work
promoting its new neurodiversity employers index, which will
allow employers to measure themselves against best practice; it
has an annual awards programme. That is the sort of approach that
we have seen really make a difference in other walks of life. The
index, with the support and approval of my hon. Friend the
Minister, would give employers a degree of certainty, and a
uniform framework within which we could see the dial start to
move. By developing such small pilots and good practices, we are
again using a “show and tell” method, and larger national and
multinational organisations and representative bodies can then
start to spread this work out.
The second bucket of recommendations, 4 to 8, relates to the
support needed for autistic people to begin or return to a
career. That is all about making sure that new programmes, such
as the universal support programme, are designed in a way that
meets the varying needs of autistic people, so that there are
supported employment programmes available, as well as supported
internships, which the evidence shows are a wonderful route
through which autistic young people can develop the skills that
they need. I am glad that the Department for Education is
piloting an entry route into supported internships for disabled
people without an education, health and care plan; that again
embraces the “universal by design” approach.
Mr Walker
As Chairman of the Education Committee, I completely agree with
my right hon. and learned Friend on the value of supported
internships. Does he agree that more broadly we need to look at
the issue of people without an EHCP? We know that many autistic
people do not require or have not had one. We should be looking
to make supported internships, or extra support for
apprenticeships, as accessible as possible, so that people can
progress into work and training.
Sir
My hon. Friend is right about that. He might have noted the very
interesting findings of the Nuffield Trust a few weeks ago, which
makes the point that although we have to have a system of
diagnosis, the EHCP system, which I was proud to support as a
Back Bencher when we brought in the Children and Families Act
2014, is a very narrow funnel. It takes a long time to get
children and people in. Instead of concentrating on the funnel,
we need a more universal approach that can embrace many people
who will not need an EHCP, but who have particular needs. That is
why promoting cross-industry autism support groups and
opportunities for work shadowing and volunteering has to be part
of the solution. As recommendation 7 says, apprenticeships are
key.
Finally, recommendation 8 is that the Government work with autism
charities and other groups to ensure that more people know about
Access to Work and improvements to the speed of that programme.
If the adjustment passport and the Access to Work Plus pilots
being run by Department for Work and Pensions produce positive
results, then I say to the Minister: let us roll them out
nationally as soon as possible.
The next group of recommendations, 9 to 13, are all about
changing recruitment practices to support autistic applicants
appropriately. We need to start with careers advisers in schools
and colleges and the National Careers Service in England and its
equivalents in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, so that
there is a better understanding of autism, autistic customers can
be better supported, and more properly tailored advice can be
given. We also need to increase the rigour of the Disability
Confident work and develop higher levels; we need more
assessments under Disability Confident and we need to build in a
link to the new neurodiversity employers index, so that
Disability Confident organisations themselves will be, in the
eyes of autistic jobseekers, much better placed to help them.
Online support with the employee health and disability service
can also link employees to appropriate advice on best practice
when it comes to recruitment.
The representative bodies have a role here. The Recruitment &
Employment Confederation has a key role to play, because it can
advise not only individual businesses, but recruitment consulting
agencies. There are myriad agencies up and down our high streets
that do the heavy lifting of recruitment for small and
medium-sized enterprises, so we have to get into those agencies.
It will be good for them, as it means they will have more success
in placing autistic employees, and it will of course be good for
wider business. Let us face it, these SMEs do not have big human
resources departments and they will not be able to do that
themselves. That is why getting into the agencies will be
important. We must also not forget the self-employed, and ensure
that we identify sources of information and support for people
who want to get on with things on their own and set up their own
business.
In the few minutes I have left, I will mention two more groups of
recommendations—I will be very brief, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I
want to finish covering this important report. Supporting
autistic people already in the workforce is covered in
recommendations 14 to 17; working with the Chartered Institute of
Personnel and Development to make sure that the 2018
“Neurodiversity at Work” guidance is published and accessible is
at the heart of that. Finally, on career progression, we need to
promote the value of employee resource groups and support
networks within larger organisations and work with autism
charities and the representative bodies to develop the training
packages to allow autistic staff to progress.
A new task group will be set up in the weeks ahead— I say weeks,
because I am working with colleagues in the DWP to identify an
independent chair and suitably qualified members. We need to
monitor progress, hold Government to account and audit the
progress we are making. I want to see, certainly by the end of
this decade, that number of one in three up to the disability
average at least, and—who knows?—beyond that.
Let us be ambitious here. I call upon my hon. Friend the Minister
to respond positively to the report and its recommendations with
all the power that she can muster on behalf of herself and her
Government colleagues. They are not the end; they are not even
the beginning of the end; but they are the end of the beginning.
Let us make progress.
1.48pm
Sir (East Ham) (Lab)
I am very pleased to follow the right hon. and learned Member for
South Swindon (Sir ); I congratulate him on
securing this debate and on the report, which makes a very
valuable contribution on this extremely important topic. The
report does a good job of laying bare the obstacles facing
autistic people in the workplace—obstacles that, as he rightly
says, we need to overcome. I applaud the obvious passion that he
has shown in presenting the report to us. I did not know about
his own family link, and I am grateful to him for explaining that
to us.
The Work and Pensions Committee has recently launched our own
inquiry into disability employment, to follow up the report that
we published in 2021 on the disability employment gap. We have
just closed our call for evidence for that inquiry—I am glad that
we have received evidence from Autistica, among others—and we
will soon start to take oral evidence from disability charities
and others. The review will help us to frame particular questions
on autism employment in the context of that inquiry. As the
review points out, the employment gap is much worse for autistic
people than for disabled people more broadly.
A disappointing feature of the report for me, though, is the
rather unambitious nature of the recommendations, which are along
the lines of, “The Government ought to try a bit harder on this,
and do a bit more of that.” There are no targets set out in the
report, and nothing to help us to monitor progress. I fear that
when, in two or five years' time, we ask whether the
recommendations have been delivered, the answer will be a bit
unclear. I do not blame the right hon. and learned Member for
South Swindon for that—no doubt Ministers would not have gone
along with a higher level of ambition—but I fear that the
Government will be able to accept all the recommendations without
really changing anything. It does seem to be a bit of a missed
opportunity.
The report rightly highlights the huge size of the autism
employment gap. By how much should we aim to reduce it? In his
speech a moment ago, the right hon. and learned Gentleman
suggested that the aim should be to increase the rate of
employment among people with autism at least up to the overall
disability employment rate. That would have been a really
substantial target against which to measure progress to include
in the report, but it is not in there. My fear is that a lack of
ambition has regrettably marked the Government's efforts on
disability employment for some time.
There was a moment not long ago when a higher level of ambition
was announced. Government Members may well remember that they
campaigned in the 2015 general election on a target announced by
to halve the wider disability
employment gap. That gap fell sharply from 1998 to 2010 through
the new deal for disabled people, but it has been stuck at around
30 percentage points ever since; it went down for a bit after
2015, but perhaps unsurprisingly during the pandemic it went back
up. Unfortunately, the target of halving the gap was abandoned
shortly after the 2015 election was safely won, which strikes me
as the kind of move that gives politicians a bad name.
In our 2021 report, the Work and Pensions Committee called
unanimously, on a cross-party basis, for that target to be
reinstated. The report we are debating this afternoon refers in
paragraph 2.7 to making progress on closing the employment gap,
and I call on the Government, in responding to that report, to
set an ambitious target for increasing the employment rate among
people with autism—perhaps, as the right hon. and learned Member
for South Swindon has just suggested, up to at least the overall
disability employment rate. As the right hon. and learned
Gentleman spells out with passion in his foreword, at the moment,
we are
“missing out on the skills and energy that autistic people could
be contributing, to the detriment of us all.”
He is absolutely right about that. The danger, I fear, is that
without targets against which to measure progress, the report may
not really change things.
Sir
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for engaging so
closely. I absolutely agree that without a means of
accountability, the work that we have done may well be lost. I
think that the task group will play an important role; it will
have the freedom to start developing some more hard-and-fast
approaches where necessary, and to hold the Government's feet to
the fire—whatever that Government's complexion. I hope that gives
the right hon. Gentleman some reassurance.
Sir
I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that
intervention. Perhaps he could use his influence with the task
group—I do not know whether he is a member of it; I am not sure
how that will work out, but I am sure he will have influence with
it—to urge it to adopt the target that he set out a few minutes
ago, which I think could make a substantial difference.
I welcome the call in the report for
“processes and support mechanisms that enable autistic staff to
be recruited and to succeed.”
In that context, I want to draw attention to a concept that is
not mentioned in the report—I am a bit disappointed that it was
not—but which has been referred to elsewhere, not least in our
Select Committee report.
The concept of job carving means assessing a person's skills and
then tailoring an employee role to those skills. Catherine Hale,
director of the Chronic Illness Inclusion project, told our 2021
inquiry that job carving was particularly effective in supporting
people with learning disabilities; given the big overlap between
autism and learning disability, I think that job carving could
certainly help. The charity Mind says that job carving roles for
people with learning disabilities can benefit employers by
removing tasks from other employees and freeing up time. In its
“Working Better” report, the Equality and Human Rights Commission
described job carving as a
“a flexible way of managing a workforce, which allows employers
to utilise their staff skills in the most productive way whilst
enabling disabled people to make a valuable contribution to the
world of work.”
Our 2021 report called on the Government as part of their then
forthcoming national disability strategy to provide detailed
guidance to employers and providers of employment support on how
they could job carve roles for disabled people, and called on
Jobcentre Plus to encourage local employers in their area to job
carve. The Government's response to our report did not pick up
the concept of job carving, but Ministers could still pick it up
in responding to the report we are debating this afternoon. I
wonder whether the Minister, who I know takes a very close
interest in this area, recognises that job carving could make a
significant difference to the employment prospects of many
autistic people.
One thing the Government response to our 2021 inquiry did refer
to was the plan at that time to increase the number of places on
the intensive personalised employment support scheme. IPES
provides voluntary employment support to people with disabilities
and complex barriers to employment. As we noted in our report,
the guidance to IPES providers explicitly mentions job carving as
an intervention that can help disabled people to find and stay in
work. IPES is referred to in paragraph 2.11 of the right hon. and
learned Gentleman's report, which rightly points out that
referrals to IPES have now ended, as our Select Committee heard
in a one-off evidence session last week on the Government's back
to work plan. There will be no more IPES referrals.
We were told by providers at our evidence session last week that
the work and health programme, also referred to in paragraph 2.11
of the report, is also coming to an end. Those are two programmes
that the report rightly identifies as providing valuable help for
people with autism to move into employment which are being shut
down. The Minister may want to comment on this in due course,
but, as far as I can tell, it does not appear that any of the
newer employment support programmes, such as WorkWell and
universal support, will provide support comparable to that which
is being closed down, and which the report has rightly identified
as very helpful. The fear is that, despite the laudable aims set
out in the report, which I know the Minister will endorse, we are
in reality going backwards. The provision at the moment, which
has been there for some time, is being removed. It would be
helpful if the Minister could tell us why IPES and the work and
health programme are being closed down, and where the new
initiatives are to close what looks like an emerging gap in
provision for people with autism.
Employers are struggling at the moment to fill vacancies. The
right hon. and learned Member for South Swindon is absolutely
right that there is a big opportunity here to boost disability
employment if we can just find a way to enable employers to tap
into it. The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) is absolutely
right that employers are willing to do so, if only they knew
how—it is a bit of a closed book to them. I do not think there is
a lack of willingness on the part of employers, but there is a
lack of information.
It was very interesting to read in the right hon. and learned
Gentleman's review about Auticon, which I had not heard of
before. It is an IT consultancy in which 80% of the workforce are
autistic, highly talented IT consultants. The founders—I think
they were in Scandinavia —recognised that many autistic adults
have extraordinary abilities, such as pattern recognition,
sustained concentration and attention to detail, which are
valuable qualities in many employment contexts. However, autistic
people need support to secure and maintain those jobs, and
Auticon specifically provides that support, understanding the
needs of its employees, and has built a successful business on
that basis.
Mr
I am glad that the report also highlights in that respect the
good work of GCHQ, which is a big employer in my neck of the
woods. Another example along those lines is an IT security
company in Worcester called Titania. Its chief executive is an
autistic woman, and it has tailored its recruitment process
specifically to address some of the challenges that my right hon.
and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir ) has identified in his
report, so that it can recruit more autistic people, who it finds
are such valuable and productive employees.
Sir
That sounds like a wonderful model. The more of that kind of
initiative around the country, the better.
The report makes the point that a line manager in a mainstream
business may well not know that somebody they are managing is
autistic. Whether the employer can agree reasonable adjustments
for the employee, as is their right under the Equality Act, will
depend on them self-disclosing their diagnosis to their line
manager. As the review notes, whatever the level of understanding
among company directors or senior staff, if the line manager is
unable or unwilling to provide support, the employee will
struggle to stay in their job.
The review is right to point out that at the moment there is no
easily accessible guidance for employers and line managers on how
to support autistic staff. Evidence to our inquiry so far
suggests that, as the hon. Member for Worcester rightly said,
employers want to do the right thing but often simply do not know
how. When they are pointed in the right direction and try it, it
turns out to be a positive experience. What can the Government do
to give employers confidence in this area?
The review calls on the Department to
“Continue to develop Disability Confident, increasing the rigour
of developmental work needed to achieve the higher Disability
Confident levels”.
I think that is a very kind way of expressing the point. The
noble , who sits on the Government
Benches in the other place and chaired the disability commission
for the Centre for Social Justice, spoke for many of our
witnesses when he said that Disability Confident
“is not making a measurable impact”
at the moment. Employers can, as things stand, achieve the
highest level of Disability Confident accreditation without
employing a single disabled person.
In response to our predecessor Select Committee six years ago,
the Department said that it was developing proposals for an
evaluation of Disability Confident. That commitment, first
expressed six years ago, was announced again in response to our
report almost three years ago in November 2021. However, I have
still seen no sign of anything happening. Perhaps the Minister
can update us. Is that evaluation of Disability Confident now
complete, and when can we expect Disability Confident finally to
be reformed?
The review is absolutely right to highlight the importance of
Access to Work and to call for improvements there. It makes the
point—I think the right hon. and learned Member for South Swindon
referred to this in his speech—that almost two thirds of disabled
people stated that it took over three months for their
application to be processed, and 20% said that it took over six
months. He is absolutely right that that is far too slow. I agree
that, as the review suggests, if the adjustment passport produces
positive results, it should be rolled out nationally as soon as
possible. However, in response to our Committee's report three
years ago in November 2021, we were promised that the adjustment
passport would be piloted from November 2021 and, if successful,
would be expanded to support all Access to Work customers. As far
as I can tell, we seem to be no further forward in 2024 than we
were in November 2021. When are these long-promised improvements
actually going to materialise?
One other policy lever the Government could pull is mandatory
disability workforce reporting, which was recommended
unanimously, on a cross-party basis, in our 2021 report. There is
a voluntary framework through which employers can choose to
report, but in late 2021 the Government launched a consultation
on whether to require large employers to report the number of
disabled people they were employing. That work was then paused,
but I understand that it has now been resumed, and that the
Government plan to publish their findings and next steps in the
course of this year. I wonder whether the Minister can update us
on when we can expect to see that work. Does she agree that
requiring employers to report on the number of disabled people
they employ and, within that, perhaps the number of autistic
people, could be effective in encouraging the employment of
people with autism and other health impairments?
I very much welcome the report, which has highlighted important
issues, and the opportunity to debate it today. I also welcome
the positive approach that the right hon. and learned Gentleman
took, when introducing the report earlier, in seeing the scale of
opportunity if we get this right. However, laudable aspirations
in this area are just not enough if delivery is delayed for
years. We need an ambitious target to increase the rate of
employment among people with autism and other disabled people. We
need worked-up plans and timescales to deliver them. I very much
hope that—perhaps as a result of the work of the task group that
he mentioned—we will finally see some of that when the Government
respond formally to this very welcome report.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame )
I call the SNP spokesperson.
2.07pm
(Motherwell and Wishaw)
(SNP)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Running through my mind are the
words, “Follow that!” I thank the right hon. and learned Member
for South Swindon (Sir ) for producing this
outstanding report. His family's lived experience has absolutely
made for a much better report, and I thank him for all the work
that he has done on it. To follow the right hon. Member for East
Ham (Sir ) is always a privilege and a
pleasure—he has taken away some of my best lines, but I will
carry on regardless.
It is a real pleasure to speak in the debate, which I signed up
for immediately, having spoken many times in this place on the
subject of autism. I think it would be remiss of me not to
mention Dame at the start of my remarks.
One of the first debates that I spoke in was on the closure of
the autism One Stop Shop in Motherwell back in 2015, and Dame
Cheryl was so kind and helpful to me when I spoke to that
important topic. I should point out that I am very close to
someone with three autistic sons. My own youngest son has never
been diagnosed, but I do not think there is much doubt that he is
somewhere on the spectrum, and I think he would admit that
himself. I also thank Ambitious about Autism and the National
Autistic Society for their briefings, which are always
helpful.
The current situation regarding employment for those with autism
is simply not good enough across the UK. The UK Government have
consistently banged on about reducing economic inactivity and
encouraging people into work, but their rhetoric is still not
matched with proper support, especially for the neurodiverse,
about whom we are talking today.
As we have heard, issues with access to work and the provision of
workplace adjustments mean that many autistic people are slipping
through the gaps. This is certainly the case for those with
autism: as we have also heard, only three in 10 working-age
autistic people in the UK are in employment. That statistic is
five in 10 for all disabled people, and eight in 10 for
non-disabled people. Ambitious about Autism's employment survey
found that 71% of those unemployed would like to be in work, but
less than a third were confident that they would find work within
the next year. That signifies a huge gap in the support currently
provided.
I have seen at first hand the transformative power of employment
when autistic and disabled people are properly supported into
work. I had the privilege of visiting University Hospital Wishaw
to meet some of the participants in the supported internship
scheme run by DFN Project SEARCH, and met some of the students on
that scheme. Some of them have now found employment. Some of them
have now married. The transformation in their lives and those of
their families cannot be over- estimated—I literally had to be
dragged off the scene, because that was one of the most uplifting
visits I have undertaken as an MP.
Employment brings fulfilment, independence and purpose, and as I
have said, it can positively transform the life of the employee
if they are well supported. However, even when employed, autistic
people face challenges and discrimination. The Buckland report
finds that autistic workers face the largest pay gap of all
disability groups, earning on average a third less than their
non-neurodiverse counterparts. Further, the report notes that
autistic graduates are twice as likely as non-disabled graduates
to be unemployed after 15 months. Only 36% find work in that
period, and autistic graduates are more likely to be
overqualified for the job they have. They are the most likely
people to be on zero-hour contracts and the least likely to be in
a permanent role. All of those things require looking at
properly, because the statistics are appalling.
Morally, we should be ensuring that autistic workers are
supported when trying to find employment, but it is also
incumbent upon Government, employers and other stakeholders to
ensure that those with autism are adequately supported when they
are in work. The SNP welcomes the publication of the Buckland
review of autism and employment, and urges the Government to
implement its recommendations to ensure that autistic people have
the opportunities they deserve. I further welcome the report's
engagement with autistic organisations, as lived experience is
vital when shaping policy. That is something the UK Government do
not always have a good track record on.
A lack of access to good-quality careers advice, inflexible
hiring practices and non-inclusive workplace cultures are just
some of the barriers facing autistic people. Once employment has
been achieved, autistic people can struggle when employers do not
or cannot put in place proper adjustments to support them.
Autistic people process information differently and experience a
built environment in a totally different manner, which can
impinge on their ability to carry out their work—too much bright
light, noise, or social interaction can be overwhelming.
Additionally, as has been said, autistic people might need more
time to process interview questions. It is imperative that
employers are aware of such differences and take steps to
accommodate autistic workers—or any disabled workers, for that
matter. A person close to me has an autistic son who wears a
badge at work to indicate his mood to his co-workers. It is a
simple thing: if he is feeling overwhelmed and does not want
people to talk to him or to be interrupted, he turns the badge to
indicate that.
From my own experience in further education, I know that my
students benefited immensely when we had autistic students in
class. At first they thought it was strange—they were a bit
wary—but over the year they developed an understanding of autism
and a real respect for the autistic students who sat next to
them. The same happens in workplaces: if we can get people into
the right place and the right job, everyone benefits. Not
accommodating autistic workers wastes so much talent and skill.
It makes no sense for businesses either—we have already heard
about the special skills that autistic people can bring to the
workplace. When businesses properly accommodate neurodiverse
employees, the results can be amazing. I have visited the
Barclays bank campus in Glasgow, designed by a woman architect
who has autistic sons. The difference in that building is
awesome: it is built with neurodiverse people in mind, with big
open-plan offices with chill pods and a real understanding of
what needs to happen. As a result, Barclays has great employees,
and people are getting good work and proper jobs.
It is imperative that the UK Government act urgently to improve
support for all disabled people, including those with autism, and
tackle barriers to employment. We are really worried about the
Prime Minister's recent announcement on fit note reform: pushing
people into work without considering what they are suffering and
what they need is appalling. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I
get very passionate about this topic, so I will try to rush
through.
It is important that Access to Work is reformed, as the Buckland
report calls for, and reforms to sick pay also need to be
introduced for when people need time off. In Scotland, the SNP
Government try our best. We are trying to be a fair work nation
and are investing money in autism, as well as in simple things
such as working within education to get initial teacher education
courses that will teach trainee teachers about autism, because as
we know, education is the gateway to employment. I will stop
there, Madam Deputy Speaker. Again, I congratulate the right hon.
and learned Member for South Swindon, and I want the Minister to
take on board all the report's recommendations and make life much
easier for those with autism in the workplace.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame )
I call the shadow Minister.
2.17pm
Dame (Wallasey) (Lab)
I am the next in line to congratulate the right hon. and learned
Member for South Swindon (Sir ) on securing and opening
this debate, but also—and particularly—on the contents of his
report. His persistence in pushing to raise awareness of the
barriers autistic people face in employment is greatly to his
credit, and benefits this House and our understanding of these
issues. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for
granting the debate, and colleagues for making such valuable and
insightful contributions. In passing, I also put on record my
admiration for Autism Together, formerly the Wirral Society for
Autistic Children—a great local charity that has been around for
50 years and does very good work in this area, which has not
always been fashionable for people to concentrate on.
As we have heard this afternoon, the Buckland review has been
broadly welcomed by charities and other organisations. It has
shone a light on the barriers that neurodivergent people continue
to face when trying to get into, stay in, and get on in the
workplace. It has also demonstrated that there is an increasing
understanding of the benefits of ensuring that people with
neurodivergence can get into work: they often have a unique view
and unique talents. Not only does GCHQ know about those talents,
but many other sectors could benefit if they only realised
it.
The review is filled with statistics that make for grim reading,
to say the least. Only 30% of autistic adults are currently in
work—what a waste! Where they are in work, autistic people face
the largest pay gap of all disability groups—that is simply not a
fair reflection of the benefit they bring to employment. Autistic
graduates are the most likely to be overqualified for their
position and least likely to be in a permanent role. Our society
and our economy suffer as a result of the waste that the Buckland
review has outlined to the House. We ought to be anxious to do
something about that.
The review highlights that a startling 50% of managers feel
uncomfortable with the idea of hiring disabled people. Let us
imagine someone wanting to work but being prevented from doing so
because the hiring manager feels uncomfortable around them, does
not understand the way in which they relate to the world or has
preconceived ideas about their ability. That is pure
discrimination. It is not always deliberate, but it must feel
like it, whether it is suffered because of benign ignorance or
bigotry. We must think about how to get rid of the ignorance that
the report talks about, and we must give neurodivergent people
the confidence that the law will support them if they are
subjected to bigotry.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman's report talked very much
about the soft power end of tackling that, but we also have to
think as a society about the harder end. We have discrimination
law in place for people with disabilities. Perhaps we need to
think about how to give that more bite. I admit that the right
hon. and learned Gentleman has not done that in his review, and
it probably was not in the terms of reference, but it is
important to remember that context when considering this issue.
We simply cannot let generation after generation of very talented
people be wasted in this way.
The review's key recommendations are only a first step on the
road to eliminating some of the barriers. The right hon. and
learned Gentleman knows that, although he is appropriately
passionate about what he discovered in his review. Undoubtedly,
many of the recommendations have the potential to have a positive
impact on autistic people's experiences and open up those
important vistas of opportunity for them in our society.
The review rightly has a strong focus on collaborating with
autistic people, employers, employer organisations and specialist
support groups. That is important because there are unique
insights to be had. Clearly, the right hon. and learned
Gentleman's report has done that very well. For example, shadow
Minister for Disabled People, my hon. Friend the Member for
Lewisham, Deptford (), went to an event attended
by BT a few months ago to highlight how to improve its hiring
practices and workplace support for neurodivergent people. She
told me that BT spoke highly not only of the positive benefits
felt by autistic employees, but of how the company has been able
to capitalise on the unique skills that they bring. There are
many examples of that, some of which we have heard today.
The review has been largely welcomed, but we must ask how quickly
it can be implemented and whether we can give it a bit more bite.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman is very gentle in his way,
and no doubt he has been sent down particular railroads by the
Government in producing his report. What steps will the Minister
take to ensure that other neurodivergent and disabled people
benefit from measures similar to those outlined in the review?
What can she say to back up the remarks made by the Chair of the
Select Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham
(Sir ), about increasing the
predictability and speed of access to work, making it easier for
people to know that they will be supported in a practical way if
they make the step into work?
Over the last few years, the Government have brought a hodgepodge
patchwork of piecemeal measures claiming to strengthen and
improve the rights of disabled and neurodivergent people. There
has been lots of activity, but very little effective output in
terms of a change in the number of people with disabilities in
work. We had the national disability strategy, which was largely
viewed as tinkering around the edges. We had the health and
disability White Paper, which raised more questions than it
answered. We had the disability action plan—again, a smattering
of well-received, small policy ideas. As my right hon. Friend the
Member for East Ham pointed out, we had the dropping of the
target for increasing employment of disabled people more
generally.
We have had consultation after consultation, pilots and various
hearts and minds initiatives with employers, but little has
changed, as we have seen in the Buckland review. We need proper
action, not more gentle observations. We need to deal with the
societal barriers that make the lives of people with
neurodiversity challenging and their employment prospects far too
narrow.
On inclusion measures, there was a contradiction that struck me
when listening to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, between
the bleak picture that the review paints of the continuing
barriers that autistic people face while trying to get into work,
and some of the other attitudes that can be discerned in the
Government about how to deal with that. The Minister for Women
and Equalities, the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (), is on the record saying
that equality, diversity and inclusion measures have already gone
too far, dismissing them as “snake oil” and performative, and
deriding disability equality and inclusion measures in the
economy as woke and something to be eliminated and driven out.
That sends confusing and mixed messages about the Government's
approach.
I hope that the Minister's response will include a far more
positive approach, telling us that the Government intend to do
something about the review. I hope that they will take up some of
the issues that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham
raised in his contribution about targets rather than nice words
and warmth, which we all agree with. We want targets and a
commitment to practical action, not just a repeat of the issues
about Disability Confident employers. As my right hon. Friend
said in his remarks, analysis shows that disabled people do not
report better experiences working for Disability Confident
employers compared with employers that are not part of the
scheme. An employer can say that they are Disability Confident
without employing a single disabled person. Is it not time for
targets, and transparency about the numbers of people with
disabilities who are in work? Is it not time for reporting, more
rigour and, if needs be, an application of the law?
2.28pm
The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work ()
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South
Swindon (Sir ) for introducing this
important debate on autism employment. It is a pleasure to follow
the Lesbian Visibility Week debate. I had the pleasure of hearing
Dame Kelly Holmes talk about how it had changed her life at an
Inspiring Leadership Awards this week. Let me take the
opportunity to put on record our covenant that covers
disadvantaged girls and vulnerable young women.
I thank the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw () for mentioning Dame . I pay tribute to her passion
and commitment in championing autism and its opportunities, and
understanding of the individual, which is so important. My right
hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon also does
that so well. I firmly believe that autism should not be a
barrier to starting, staying or succeeding in employment. I know
that all Members present and those watching share that vision.
Although not every autistic person can work, given the right
long-term support—not just to get into work, but to progress in
work—the vast majority could. One in 70 people is autistic, which
is about a million people across the UK. Giving more autistic
people the chance to get into work is incredibly good for them,
as we heard from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for
South Swindon today.
There is a huge opportunity to tackle economic inactivity. The
talent range and myriad potential must be realised, and I will do
my utmost today to give an update on many of the questions raised
and what comes next. We know it is good for employers, in
building that diverse workforce, to work with more diverse
customers. In my role, in answer to the hon. Member for Wallasey
(Dame ), it is about proper inclusion
and action, and turning warm words—not just from me, but from
employers and sectors—into action. I can promise her that there
has been no railroading on what my right hon. and learned Friend
the Member for South Swindon should include in his review. I will
come on to the next steps, and there will also be a further
update on the disability action plan in July. Hopefully we are
starting off well in answering questions.
In 2017 the Government set a goal to see a million more disabled
people in employment by 2027. I am proud to say that in the first
quarter of 2022 the number of disabled people in employment had
increased by 1.3 million, meaning that the goal had been met
within five years. In the first quarter of 2023 disability
employment had risen by 1.6 million in total since the goal was
announced. I am aware that progress has been good but not even. I
feel this week I am under scrutiny again from the Chair of the
Select Committee, the right hon. Member for East Ham (Sir ). I am focused on this next
goal and how we review and shape what is next. Members should
watch this space.
It is sad but true, as we have heard today, that currently only
three in 10 working-age autistic people are in employment, even
though we know that the majority of autistic people would like to
be in work. Indeed, their families would love to see them
progressing. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for
South Swindon says the dial needs to be moved on autism and
neuro- diversity more widely, and we do need to move that dial.
The design we are working on for universal support and engagement
with the Department for Education, whether that is supportive
internships or broader apprenticeships, has to work for young
people and the people in our communities. Seven in 10 working-age
autistic people being unable to access independence and the sense
of fulfilment that employment can bring is far too many.
Sir
As the Minister heard, the right hon. and learned Gentleman
suggested a few minutes ago that there should be a target for
raising the level of employment among autistic people at least up
to the wider disability employment rate. Will she consider
adopting that target?
I am absolutely looking at the right way forward, because for me,
if someone acquires a disability, we need to be looking at how
they are retained in work and whether they have a particular
impairment or need. I am looking at that in the round. As part of
the Disability Confident challenges, the new guidance for
leadership, working with the CIPD, is important. We need to be
talent confident. Many employers want to employ more inclusively.
They just struggle with how to do it and so regress to the same
old recruitment.
There is also an autism friendly employer award, which we should
be looking at. I am proud to say that I have that—I am one of the
few parliamentarians who do. It is worth raising that too.
I thank the hon. Lady for raising that important point for all of
us. My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and
Westminster () mentioned the Fair Shot café
in Covent Garden. I think we will all be popping down for coffee
and banana cake. My predecessor enjoyed his visit there, and I am
looking forward to seeing more work like that, because these
things are incredibly important.
The Chair of the Select Committee, the right hon. Member for East
Ham, talked about job carving, and I call it job design. It is
about working with employers, looking at the roles they have,
interviewing in the way that suits people and giving long-term
support. I totally agree with all the charities that talk about
jobcentres always having that individualised approach. I promise
the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw and all those watching
that it is about the right role for the right person in front of
us at DWP, so that we can actively change people's lives. That is
what we are in the business of doing; it is not just warm
words.
The point on self-employment that my right hon. and learned
Friend the Member for South Swindon mentioned links to the Lilac
review and active, positive choices for disabled people. We
recognise talent, ability and entrepreneurship. There is a
positive choice there, and access to cash is important.
I will turn to my right hon. and learned Friend's point on
autistic people and the recruitment process. I thank Helen
Tomlinson, the Government's menopause champion, who is also the
head of talent at the Adecco Group. Thanks to her support, my
officials are working with Adecco and the Recruitment and
Employment Confederation to develop new methods for recruitment
that work effectively for both autistic and neurotypical
applicants, ensuring that employers are more able to secure the
talent they need to thrive. The Government are determined to
provide the right support. I also note and agree with the point
about career progression for autistic people.
Access to Work continues to provide grants for extra costs, and
those adjustment passports are key. We are focusing on new
employment. I recognise that there have been delays, and that is
partly because more people know and understand the value of
Access to Work. We are continuing to develop a universal support
scheme. I recognise the point that the right hon. Member for East
Ham has made, and I hope I have reassured him about the design on
that. I cannot cover all the wide-ranging points he made in this
debate, but I am happy to write to him on those.
On the challenge of being ambitious and on what comes next, and
in terms of what we are looking to achieve, I can announce that
my officials will shortly be going out to the autism community to
seek expressions of interest in joining the group, starting with
the role of chair. It will be a transparent, inclusive process,
and the selection panel will be entirely independent of
Government. I fully expect that that is where outcomes and what
comes next will be realised when it comes to the review's
ambitions.
To conclude, this report is a big and extremely welcome step
forward. It has not only produced a plan to overcome barriers for
autistic people, but shows a path that can be followed for other
groups facing barriers to employment and those with other types
of neurodiversity and learning. I thank my right hon. and learned
Friend the Member for South Swindon once again.
Sir
The review made the point about the reform of Disability
Confident. Can the Minister give an update on that? Has the
evaluation been completed? When will the changes be brought
forward?
There have been some changes, and I have mentioned some of the
updates. There is more to come, which I think the right hon.
Gentleman will be interested in and will welcome, if he can just
bear with me. If I am not constantly in the Chamber being
examined, I can get on with the bits that I want to bring forward
to the House, if that makes sense to those watching. We are
seeing some great progress and some best practice. Things always
work best when there is real change in getting autistic people
into employment. I agree with the hon. Member for Wallasey. I
agree with the whole reason for the report, and I thank James and
the charity and all those who brought the report together. We
need to deliver for autistic people. This is just the start, and
may we long continue to deliver on that ambition.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame )
I call Sir to wind up.
2.39pm
Sir
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will exercise my prerogative,
because there was a proper debate, with some challenge to the
report and the approach taken. May I first say that I make no
apology for the fact that the report did not, as is so often the
case, make yet another call for a change in the law or ask for
another slug of Government money? I just do not think that either
will really cut it.
I take the point made by the hon. Member for Wallasey (Dame
) to talk about the legal
framework. We have equalities legislation, and we have a
protected characteristic—namely disability—under which autism
clearly comes, fairly and squarely. I am absolutely with her in
making sure that employers and employees are much better equipped
to understand the full ambit of that and what discrimination
actually means. She is right that, more often than not,
discrimination is not the product of deliberate, malicious or
wilful behaviour, but the product of ignorance. I think that word
“ignorance” underpins so much of the obstacles that autistic
people and neurodiverse people face in the workforce.
Now, I am with the hon. Lady on waging a war on ignorance, but
may I say to Opposition Members that they should not confuse
perhaps a diplomatic or gentle approach with a lack of inner
determination and steel to get change? That has always been how I
have operated. I do believe in respect and courtesy, but
underpinning that is a determination to hold the Minister to
account and to hold Governments of a future complexion to
account. That is why the task group has an important role.
I am grateful to the civil servants who work with the Minister
for sharing the draft terms of reference with me. The debate can
help inform that process further. The terms of reference, which
emphasise the independence of the chair and the group, are a good
start. We should make it absolutely clear in those terms of
reference that the group is free to look at targets, timescales
and the sort of approach that I have presaged in my speech and
which the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the right
hon. Member for East Ham (Sir ), rightly presses us on. Let
us take that away from the debate as something on which we must
build.
I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Motherwell and
Wishaw () for mentioning DFN Project
SEARCH. DFN stands for David Forbes-Nixon, who is an incredible
man whose own son is autistic. With the charity that he set up,
he has built this incredible network. She was right to mention
that.
I commend my hon. Friend the Minister for her remarks. She knows
that I will be holding the Government's feet to the fire on this
matter. Let us use the review as the basis of progress. Let us
get industry and business behind us, and let us move the dial on
autism employment. Let us get on with it.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the recommendations of the
Buckland Review into Autism and Employment; and urges the
Government, businesses and the wider economy to implement them.
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