Welsh Parliament statement: Priorities for transport—listening, partnership, making change - Apr 23

Ken Skates: Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. When I took up this role, I set my team three priorities: to listen, to work in partnership and to make change happen where it is needed. On 20 mph, we have started that listening. I have been clear in all my conversations that we will put communities at the heart of our thinking and that we will listen to the voices of all citizens.

As I set out in the Senedd last week, there is growing consensus on safe speeds in communities that we can build from. The Welsh Government continues to believe that 20 mph is the right speed limit in places such as near schools, hospitals, nurseries, community centres, play areas and in built-up residential areas. This is particularly the case when children and vulnerable people are in close contact with traffic. The principal objective of the policy is to enable people to feel safer in their communities through reducing collisions. What I am now doing is listening to what people want for the roads in their communities, and pressing ahead with refining the policy and getting the right speed on the right roads. To achieve this, we are initiating a number of actions.

The first element of my approach is to have a genuine programme of listening to people. Between now and July, we will listen to citizens, to bus drivers, emergency services, the police, young people, vulnerable people, businesses, and councillors in county, town and community councils, in order to understand their perspectives on road safety in residential areas. In the last week, I have met leaders and lead transport members from every local authority in Wales to reinforce my commitment to work with them, as the decision makers over speed limits on most roads. I am pleased that they have all agreed to work in partnership with me in the coming weeks and months.

The second element of my plan is to work in partnership with key bodies to prepare the ground for change. Councils are already looking at local roads where changes might be needed. As part of our listening programme, I will encourage people to get in touch with their local council to tell them where they think 20 mph should be targeted. Information on how you can do this will be available on the Welsh Government website. I will also work with town and community councils to make sure that their voices are part of this national conversation. Alongside this, Welsh Government will revise its exemptions guidance, again by working in partnership with councils.

I am pleased to inform Members today that my officials have asked the existing external review to bring their work to a rapid conclusion. I expect their final report within the next few weeks. I will publish it as soon as possible.

I'll then publish revised exceptions guidance by the summer. This will allow for local authorities to better target 20 mph on appropriate routes. I'm delighted to report today that, in order to support that process, we will draw on advice from the County Surveyors' Society Wales, who will also be available to provide advice and support on changes to all local authorities. Ultimately, the decision rests with the highway authority.

The third element is to then deliver the necessary changes on the ground. Once local authorities have worked with communities and new guidance is finalised, highway authorities will be able to commence the process of adjusting speed limits on relevant roads, and I expect this process to begin from September. Ultimately, the degree of change in each of our local authorities will not be determined by me and the Welsh Government, but by the public and councils, as the highway authority for most residential roads. And let me be clear on another important point that's emerged through my engagement with council leaders this week: I absolutely recognise the range of pressures facing our partners in local government, and this Government is committed to ensuring that they have the resources they need to implement change. We will not expect councils, who are facing difficult financial pressures, to cover the cost of adjusting routes back to 30 mph.

To summarise: we will listen, work in partnership with councils and support delivery of targeted change on the ground. This approach isn't limited to our work on speed limits. I'll continue to listen to people across Wales on transport issues that they face. We will strengthen partnerships with our regions, letting them shape their own transport priorities that work for their communities. And we will lobby the UK Governments, present and future, to do the same, and to invest as needed here. And we know that change is possible. We're starting to see the results of transforming the core Valleys lines. During the first full month of operating, rail services on the Treherbert line were on time 92.5 per cent of the time.

We are taking a very different approach in Wales: we're putting passengers first and ensuring our services meet the demands of when people both want and need to travel post COVID, and we are providing more services to allow them to do this. Thanks to our £800 million investment in a new fleet, passengers across Wales are now able to travel on new trains, and Transport for Wales services are today performing better than any other operator in Wales.

By reducing funding for operations, maintenance and renewals in cash terms, despite all the inflation that we've seen, the UK Government is directing a managed decline of Welsh rail infrastructure outside the CVL. Reduced asset reliability, more service-affecting failures and reduced reliability are expected, according to Network Rail, and it's only the Welsh Government's investment in new trains that will prevent this from having a more severe impact on performance and passengers in Wales.

We are also going to build new roads and improve our existing ones, but we'll raise the bar and build better than before. We'll use the most pioneering techniques from around the world. We'll also better design our transport networks to accommodate bus priority lanes, and I'm keen to look at how we can support more people to walk between home, bus stops and their final destinations.

If you're in any doubt about the future of roads, let me say this: the renewed A494 River Dee crossing will go ahead; the Mold Road improvements into Wrexham will go ahead; we have accepted the north Wales transport commission's recommendations for better traffic management around the Menai bridge. These are just three examples. In these, and other areas, we will proceed with plans that reflect the net-zero challenge that we face.

Alongside this, we'll continue to reform how our transport system is organised. In particular, our landmark bus Bill will correct the disastrous failure of privatisation in the mid-1980s. It will allow us to work with regions to design bus networks their communities need and put contracts in place to deliver them. I look forward to working with you all in partnership and hope you will join our mission to take Wales forward. Diolch.

17:05

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 17:09:30

There are a large number of individuals who wish to speak. How many I get through depends on yourselves keeping to your time and also the Minister on being succinct in his answers. Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar 17:09:46

Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for this afternoon's statement. It's clear from the rhetoric that this Welsh Government has finally cottoned on to the fact that the 20 mph policy has been a complete shambles. Whilst I'm genuinely delighted to see the Cabinet Secretary has come round to the Welsh Conservative way of thinking with a targeted approach, for me personally it doesn't go far enough. We do need to see the Government return Wales's default speed limit to 30 mph with exceptions made for 20 mph rather than the other way round. Sadly, Cabinet Secretary, with all due respect, following your statement last week, your words have in fact caused significant confusion, with many residents' groups and organisations who are now under the impression that Welsh roads will be returned to 30 mph following the statement today, but that simply isn't the case, is it? Cabinet Secretary, can you confirm just for the benefit of people across Wales that this Government will not be rescinding the 20 mph policy today? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice, because if you're not completely overhauling this policy, and the Government isn't, sadly, truly listening to the public, and despite all the warm words coming forward, nothing is changing as of today.

I appreciate that you are speeding up the review and have committed to listening to the people, but you can't ignore the fact that just under half a million people across the country have made their views on this £33 million project abundantly clear: they simply don't want it. One of the main things that have upset and angered a lot of constituents was your predecessor's and the previous Government's lack of consultation with the public. They understandably felt ignored and neglected. You say the Welsh Government is going to listen to citizens, bus drivers, emergency services, councils and businesses, amongst others, between now and July, and I'm truly thrilled that you're doing this. Whilst I really do, sincerely, with every ounce of my soul, welcome this approach, that's a lot of people that you're going to be engaging with in such a short space of time, so how can you be confident that you're going to encapsulate the views of the people of Wales in a relatively short time frame? You've listed some of the groups that you're engaging with, but can I also please urge you to speak with groups like the Road Haulage Association?

Cabinet Secretary, you're making all the right noises; you're saying all the right things about listening and engaging with the public and other organisations, but how is it going to work? That's my question. How are you going to be having these conversations? Will you be inviting written representations? Will you be going into communities all across Wales and hold public meetings to hear residents' views? Let's not forget, previously, the Welsh Government engaged with the public over this very policy, and it was claimed that 60 per cent people actually supported 20 mph. And then it turned out that just a mere 1,002 people actually took part in the consultation to begin with. So, Cabinet Secretary, this Government needs to ensure it goes further in the pursuit of true feelings of the public this time round. As far as I'm concerned, if this Government was truly planning on listening to the people of Wales, then it would accept this law has been a mistake and rescind it. Anything less, I'm afraid, is just paying lip service. And let's be clear, imposing a policy, then deciding to take on board the public's view is not the way the Government should be operating, but fair enough. Government should engage with the public on a policy, tweak it in light of comments, and then roll with it.

One of the things people have found frustrating about this policy—and there are lots—is the process of contacting local authorities to submit suggestions of roads that should be returned to 30 mph. Each local authority seems to have a different process and it isn't always easy to contact them. Therefore, will you commit to streamlining the process for appeals and requests to be submitted? In the name of fairness, perhaps—and this is a suggestion—a uniform process for all councils across Wales would be the best approach. This would make things a lot easier and help restore the public's faith and confidence in the Government, as well as the local council when it comes to this policy.

We also know another big issue with this 20 mph scheme was the confusion around guidance given to local authorities by the Welsh Government when it came to implementing this policy was made slightly unclear. Now, Cabinet Secretary, how will you ensure the same error isn't repeated again when issuing revised guidance to Welsh councils? We all know that councils are rightly going to have a say in shaping this policy, given they're the ones that we call ‘the boots on the ground'. From the conversations you've had with council leaders so far, combined with your knowledge, to what scale are you expecting the guidance for local authorities to change, as this will have a direct impact on the number of roads changing, and the cost? The cost of these changes, as you said, will be met by the Welsh Government, therefore do you or your officials have a rough estimate as to how much this is going to cost? We're told here in this Chamber time and time again that the Welsh Government is cash-strapped, and this isn't a dig—please rest assured when I say this—as I'm really happy that you're somewhat rowing back on this policy, but I wonder if you could outline where this additional money is going to be coming from. I am happy to hear the Welsh Government's road building ban appears to be coming to an end, with a pledge to build some important road infrastructure projects. You've listed a few here today, Cabinet Secretary, but it mustn't stop there. We need to see schemes, and you mentioned the third Menai crossing, and a Dinas Powys bypass and Chepstow bypass would be very welcome and do need to be delivered.

Cabinet Secretary, you've committed to improving our existing roads, something the Welsh Conservatives have long again called for and committed to using the most pioneering techniques from around the world. Can you please outline what some of these—

17:10

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 17:14:50

You need to conclude now, please.

Natasha Asghar 17:14:52

Just briefly touching on—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 17:14:53

Now, please.

Natasha Asghar 17:14:54

—and I'm conscious of time, just how is the Cabinet Secretary—[Interruption.] The bus franchising will be answering the bus industry's prayers. Instead of making—

17:15

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 17:15:01

No. No, I've asked for time—[Interruption.] This is—[Interruption.] No, Natasha. There are lots of people who want to speak. You have to stick to your time, otherwise no-one is going to be called, including your colleagues. 

Natasha Asghar 17:15:10

I understand. I completely understand. So, Minister, please answer the questions as to how you're going to get Wales going forward and get Wales moving again. That's it. 

Ken Skates 17:15:19

May I thank the Conservative spokesperson for her valuable contribution to this statement? Let's just build on the consensus that we reached last week, first of all. We all agree that 20 mph works really well where it matters most. Outside schools, hospitals, in heavily built-up areas, where children are coming into close contact with motorised vehicles, it works; the 20 mph policy works in those areas, and it will remain. But we also accept, do we not, across the Chamber, that on certain routes it hasn't been appropriate, and we will move swiftly, at the least cost, to correct that. 

Now, there are two options on the table—two options—one, the Welsh Government's option, which is by far the quickest and the least expensive, or the Conservative position, which I think is being maintained, which is to get rid of the 20 mph policy, have every single 20 mph road returned back to 30 mph everywhere and anywhere, and then to use traffic regulation orders—[Interruption.] No, TROs, they'd have to use TROs, it's the only means available, to then return 30 mph routes back to 20 mph outside schools, outside hospitals, outside play areas. It would cost £3,500 per road. At the last count, there were 148,000 streets in Wales. They would bankrupt Wales, in all likelihood several councils, and they'd also tie up councils for years upon years in bureaucracy and red tape. We want to bring consensus where there is disagreement. [Interruption.] I would welcome the Conservatives' agreement that we have the plans to do just that.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 17:17:07

Cabinet Secretary, one second. I would like to listen to the Cabinet Secretary, so if all Members on all sides would allow the Cabinet Secretary to give the answer, it would be very helpful. Cabinet Secretary. 

Ken Skates 17:17:19

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I was trying to deliver that in the most convivial manner possible and in a way that shows humility, I hope, in a way that shows compassion, and in a way that shows that we are responding to the public. If only UK Tories could do the same. No humility on crashing the economy, no acceptance of the incompetence on HS2, and, certainly, in the way that climate change and asylum is being weaponised by the Prime Minister, zero compassion as well. 

In terms of the conversations that are going to take place, organisations such as the Road Haulage Association are already scheduled to meet with me. This will be a major exercise in bringing as many interested parties and as many people together to reach a point of consensus, where people agree on that consensus we agreed on last week that, in the right places, 20 mph works. Where adjustments need to be made, they will be, with revised guidance and with financial support from the Welsh Government. 

Now, I will be going into communities. I spoke with The Leader newspaper just earlier today, and I've said I will join them in Buckley, which was one of the pilot schemes. I love Buckley. I spent many, many Saturday evenings at the Tivoli ballroom growing up. I really, really like Buckley, and I wish to visit there as soon as I can to look at how it's operating on the ground and also to look at the routes that people wish to see revert back to 30 mph.

There is one more important point that I'd like to make on this: we need to have a consistent approach across Wales, not just for the listening exercise, which I agree with the Member on, but also in terms of the application. Convening the county surveyors is designed to do just that, to make sure that councils have the confidence and the support to be able to apply reversions in a consistent, sensible way whilst listening to the public at all times. 

Delyth Jewell 17:19:20

First, I'd like to welcome you once again to this role. I look forward to working with you. 

I'd like to set out some of the areas where we feel that there should be priority. I've raised already my concerns about the Welsh Government's decision not to pursue legal action about HS2. HS2's tracks don't travel into Wales at all, but we are paying for it all the same. Because of some trickery in the Treasury, it has been branded a project for England and Wales—a sham of a decision, clearly disprovable by anyone with a map and a modicum of common sense, a compass and a conscience. I'd ask again why the Welsh Government is not challenging this designation in law. Why won't you pursue this in the courts? This isn't simply a stand to take on principle—billions of pounds are at stake; our Government should be demanding them, because that money would have a material effect on improving our own transport services.

Cabinet Secretary, that brings me to another key priority: sustainable bus funding. Our bus services have been cut drastically, prices have gone up. In communities like rural areas, like parts of the Valleys as well, where train lines don't reach, many people are reliant on bus services, but more and more they're failing to get to people to get them where they need to be and to get them home. Now, I'm a huge supporter of investment in rail. I also don't think that should be done at the expense of bus services. So, how will you square those priorities, please?

Now, I'd be keen to work with you to see more being done on transport safety, and you touched on this. I was delighted some weeks ago to have a legislative proposal passed by the Senedd to improve street lighting at and near major stations and bus stops, improved accessibility, to look at the feasibility of an expectation on public transport providers that they should get vulnerable passengers to a place of safety after dark when services are cancelled. I'd be really keen to work with you and your department to maintain momentum on those issues.

And talking about safety again, I will turn to 20 mph. Now, I agree with you that the implementation of this policy had its flaws; it's led to confusion, it led to frustration. A Plaid Cymru amendment was passed by this Senedd six months ago calling for a continuous review of the policy's implementation, for improved guidance and powers for councils to redesignate roads to 30 mph in those areas where 20 mph doesn't make sense and to listen to local concerns. Could you confirm that the Government is now acting on that Plaid Cymru amendment that was passed?

Now, there were problems, but I don't want us to lose sight either of how radical this policy is. Sustrans have written to MSs pointing out that a four-year-old child was knocked down and killed in Birmingham a few short days ago. She was playing on the pavement outside a playground; she should have been safe. There will be voices, loud voices, who'll try to persuade us that it's only outside schools that children need to be kept safe, forgetting, perhaps, that children don't live in schools. They live on streets, they play on streets, their lives are just as precious and as vulnerable on streets. I'd implore you, please, and I know that there are loud voices, but, please, the voices of those who'll be most affected by this are still too young to be heard loudly.

Finally, I call on the Government to reconsider the decision it's made on learner transport. Too many children are being let down by this decision. I am particularly concerned about how it'll affect Welsh-medium schools, again, in communities like the Valleys that have larger catchment areas. If we're going to reach a million Welsh speakers, we have to make it easier, not more difficult, for parents who don't speak Welsh themselves to take that step to send their children to Welsh-medium education. We can't make it more difficult for them to get there, or none of us will end up where we want or need to be.

17:20

Ken Skates 17:23:22

Can I thank Delyth Jewell for her contribution as well today? I am looking forward to working with opposition spokespeople in areas of their concern specific to their parties and their particular geographical areas. I'm also looking forward to working with Members across the Chamber to explore solutions for the challenges that we face and that the people that we serve face on a daily basis.

In terms of bus funding, I think it's an incredibly valuable point that the Member makes, that bus services are absolutely vital for many people in our society. One in five people just don't have access to any other means of transport. For them, the bus is simply not a choice, it is the only available transport, so it's vitally important that we create a bridge through to reregulation. Once we've had the bus Bill passed by this Senedd, and I hope that all parties support that legislation, we will be able to design a system where we put passengers ahead of profit. In the meanwhile, we have to create a bridge to that period. Transport for Wales are working very closely with bus operators and with local authorities looking at how we can use existing resources and identify further resources to improve bus services across Wales.

In terms of safety for women and girls, just today I've had a report from the Rail Delivery Group that they would like to conduct work in this very area. I'm looking forward to learning more shortly, when I meet with them, on what their work entails and what the likely outcomes will be, and I hope that this might be something that we can discuss in further detail when we meet later this week. I also think that we have reached a point, I genuinely do, on 20 mph where there is consensus that, in those areas where children are at risk—and you're right, it's not just outside schools—where children are at risk, where vulnerable people are at risk, where the elderly are at risk, where people walking and cycling are at risk, we need to ensure that they are protected. We need to help people feel safer in their communities. And of course, where there are routes identified by the people we serve and by local authorities that perhaps should return to 30 mph, we will assist in that endeavour. But the principle of making Wales safer stands, and I think that that is supported, in spite of some of the rhetoric, by the majority, the vast majority, of Members here.

In terms of learner transport, this is an area of concern that is on a long list of subjects that should be attracting further resource, even though our budgets keep dwindling. It is something that I wish to approach with great sympathy and empathy, but it is a reality that we face incredibly stretching times insofar as Welsh budgets are concerned.

And finally, with regard to HS2, the legal advice was very clear that we would likely fail. When you take legal advice of that nature, you have to judge whether it would be sensible and prudent for the public purse to pursue something that you know will be lost. That said, we should have benefited from £350 million to date. There are huge prizes to be won if a UK Government—and I doubt it'll be the present one, but if a future UK Government—commits to investing in Welsh rail infrastructure as is needed and as we are owed; huge benefits could be accrued from this in the north, in the south, in mid and in west Wales.

17:25

Mike Hedges 17:26:51

The movement to 20 mph zones was happening well before the default 20 mph speed limit was introduced. In areas where there were not 20 mph zones, chicanes, speed bumps and other means of slowing traffic were being introduced.

I've been told by constituents, 'There is no need for speed limits; let drivers decide', that death and severe injury is a price worth paying for 30 mph, and, saddest of all that, if a child gets knocked over and killed, 'Well, it's their fault.' I support 20 mph on estate roads and areas of older housing. A and B roads are different; that is why they're classified as such. And I'm requesting that decisions on speed limits on A and B roads are decided by local authorities without any Welsh Government guidance.

Does the Minister agree that, on public transport, there needs to be a rebalancing of support between buses and rail? To most of my constituents, public transport means buses and, as the Minister is well aware, over 80 per cent of public transport journeys are made by bus. Privatisation has failed for bus users and I'm looking forward to the bus Bill.

Ken Skates 17:28:02

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his comments? They are very, very difficult to disagree with or to find any fault with. I would agree that we do need to identify means of improving bus provision across Wales, and that will be done in conjunction with our pursuit of the legislation that is so desperately needed. The privatisation of bus services in the mid 1980s was an absolute disaster, a great mistake, but we will correct it with our legislation, and we will look for any and every way to improve bus services for the people of Wales in the meantime.

I also think, in terms of 20 mph, of course, 20 mph zones were around before the policy was introduced and I seem to recall, a few years ago, Members of this Chamber rushing to have photos taken, shouting that '20's plenty', but who now oppose the policy. I think it's absolutely essential, though, that we do calm down and cool down the rhetoric over this from all sides, because I believe that we can reach a point where there is consensus across the country that, where 20 mph works, it works really well in protecting people and should remain, and, where it doesn't work, corrections can be made.

Russell George 17:29:18

Thank you for your statement, Minister. I'm just interested to know how your guidance and your process might address some other road restriction speed limits as well, such as 30 mph and 40 mph. So, for example, there are many 30 mph zones that are more appropriate to be 40 mph, and 40 mph zones to be 30 mph. For example, if I travel along the trunk road in mid Wales, very similar hamlets, one is currently 20 mph and one is 40 mph. In my view, it would be far more sensible if both were to be 30 mph. So, just to understand how that could be addressed in the statement that you've outlined today, Minister.

Also, over the last 13 years, my experience of being a local member is that often I get representations made from town or community councils, and county councillors, and I'm asked to make representations on their behalf. If it's a trunk road, I make them to Welsh Government Ministers. The usual answer that I get back is, 'Well, we'll look at this at the next roads review, which takes place in so many years' time.' If I write to local authorities, the answer that I get back is, 'We don't really have the current funds available.' So, how, in this process, can you make it easier, where there is clear local support through the town, community, local Senedd Members, to make an alteration to a road restriction, and that isn't the same response that I have just outlined to you?

17:30

Ken Skates 17:30:44

Well, can I thank Russell George for his contribution? I had a conversation with another of your colleagues, Darren Millar, this afternoon, regarding a trunk road through his constituency. It's in Llanferres. Three of my nephews went to school in Llanferres, and I know that area very well. It's currently 40 mph, and Darren Millar would like to see it reduced to 30 mph. So would I. I think that it would make great sense in terms of road safety.

There are other routes like that across Wales that perhaps should be reduced in speed. The most appropriate means of doing that would be through TROs. Now, it's accepted across all parties, I think, that the legislation that underpins traffic regulation orders is clunky and not fit for purpose. That is legislation that currently sits with the UK Government. It is reserved responsibility that applies to it. So, we would wish to see a Government in the future amend the problems that were created through the Act that underpins traffic regulation orders.

In the meantime, there are two challenges facing local authorities. One is funding, which I have already rehearsed, and the second is the actual process and the volume of requests for routes to be changed. So, I will make representations to UK Government Ministers concerning the Act from which traffic regulation orders stem, in the hope that we can have a far more streamlined and efficient means of changing speed limits across the UK in the future.

Heledd Fychan 17:32:19

I welcome today's statement. Can I focus my comments on buses, please? I was pleased to hear in your response the acknowledgement that this is the only mode of transport for a number of people in our communities. I know that it is often one of the complaints, because it then impacts on people being able to reach medical appointments, which then means missed appointments, and so on. We do need to ensure that there is a focus, so I welcome the comments by Mike Hedges as well, because getting this right has to be a priority to tackle isolation within our communities as well.

I would also like to build on the point made by Delyth Jewell around the learner travel measure, and ask can you please work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to see if there's anything that we can do to ensure that those children who are missing school currently because they can't afford to go on a bus—. There are changes coming in, in places like Rhondda Cynon Taf, which will mean that fewer pupils are eligible. Can you please work to ensure that no child misses a day of school because they can't afford the bus?

Ken Skates 17:33:23

Yes, I can assure the Member that I will work very closely with the education Cabinet Secretary on the future of learner travel. It is something that I know Lynne Neagle is very, very concerned by—the need to ensure that we reduce absenteeism within school, which is often associated with other factors, but can be down to a lack of availability of transport. It's still a fact, I'm afraid, that in parts of Wales, up to 20 per cent of young people can't even get to their job interview because they can't afford or access public transport, predominantly in areas only served by bus services.

Please let me assure you that the future of buses in Wales is one of my very top priorities. Improving public transport is absolutely vital in ensuring that people have an alternative to the car. If we are to ensure that we get modal shift, we have to make sure that there is a twenty-first century public transport system that offers hope and opportunity to all people in Wales.

Hefin David 17:34:27

I can think of three reasons why this policy needs amending. First of all, there is a road in my constituency that is 20 mph, and almost everyone agrees it should be 30 mph. There are barely any houses on it, and people are just ignoring the speed limit, which undermines the whole 20 mph ethos. There's a road in my constituency that is 60 mph and has three houses on it, and should really be, at that point, 20 mph. And there are industrial estates that the bus companies have said should be 30 mph, not 20 mph, because they are slowing down their routes. Those three examples, I've raised with the council, and each time, the response is, 'We can't do it, because the guidance won't let us.' So, there's clearly a need to review this guidance, to sort this problem out, but also, importantly, involve local ward councillors in this decision, of whatever party. You know that they're going to be very closely—or the best councillors, anyway—in touch with residents, and having them involved in the discussion will help bring further relevant change that will resolve some of the problems with the introduction of this policy.

17:35

Ken Skates 17:35:29

Can I thank Hefin David for his comments, and make two points in response? One, I'm keen to visit constituencies and regions with Members to understand how this policy is benefiting people and communities, as outlined by many people, but also to look at those routes that may be for review and reversion back to 30 mph. So, I'm happy to visit any constituency with any Member as part of our programme of listening to the people of Wales. And I would agree with Hefin David on the second point that ward councillors are crucially important in ensuring that we listen to people and apply changes that are appropriate, and sensitive as well, to communities. It was a fact during COVID, which we were reminded of on a regular basis, that the closer you get to communities, as an elected representative, the more trusted you are. So, involving councillors in the programme of listening will be absolutely at the heart of what we do.

Samuel Kurtz 17:36:29

Can I take the opportunity to welcome the Cabinet Secretary to his role and begin by thanking his predecessor for the work that he did in securing traffic lights at the Nash Fingerpost junction on the A477, not yet completed, but I know that the community are most grateful for the work on that? However, I do repeat my calls for a full review of safety along the A477 from St Clears to Pembroke Dock, following a number of issues raised with me by residents of Milton, Red Roses and Llanddowror. And can I ask and request that this review be extended to cover the stretch of the A40 between St Clears and Carmarthen? Now, this stretch of road has been dubbed one of the nation's most dangerous roads, considering the large number of junctions on the main carriageway, most of which do not have feeder lanes. Indeed, since the start of the decade, we have sadly seen this road claim three lives—those of James Beer in September 2020, Dyfed-Powys Police Officer Lynwen Thomas in February 2021, and Owen Lewis in the early hours of Easter Monday this year. A transport appraisal guidance study is being undertaken on this stretch of road, however, I would be keen to learn the outcome of this. But if the Cabinet Secretary is genuine in his offer of listening, can I ask that he heeds my calls and creates a safety review of the whole A40 and A477 between Pembroke Dock and Carmarthen? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Ken Skates 17:37:52

I thank Sam Kurtz for his comments and for his questions, and I know from Joyce Watson and Eluned Morgan just how important road safety is in mid and west Wales. I understand that the A477 Nash Fingerpost junction was an issue that went to the Petitions Committee and was considered by Jack Sargeant and the committee. I am very grateful indeed to Lee Waters for pursuing safety improvements at that junction, which will be delivered.

I'm also open to discussion about how to improve the whole of the A477, and if the Member would wish to have a meeting with me, I'm more than happy to discuss that further. And, of course, on the A40, safety improvements between St Clears and Carmarthen are now being considered, and a road safety scheme is included in the national transport delivery plan. It's currently being taken forward through the WelTAG stages, and the scheme, I can guarantee you, will benefit all road users. But, again, I'd be happy to have a deeper conversation about that particular programme with the Member.

Mabon ap Gwynfor 17:38:57

There is now a clear impression in rural Wales that this Government has turned its back on our rural communities. In my constituency alone, we've seen significant cutbacks in bus services with the T2, T3, T19 and 32 services being reduced. The result of this, of course, is that people can't get to school, or the colleges, people can't go to shops or to their workplaces. Moreover, last week, we heard that the rail service on the Cambrian line is going to be scaled back, but it's going to be extended during the summer months for tourists, and the same is true of the Heart of Wales line, with services being cut back.

You said at the beginning of your statement that your intention and hope is to listen to the people of Wales. In all of these cases, there's been no full consultation. The people in the communities that have been impacted haven't had their voices heard, and nor have they been able to take part in a process to make these decisions. So, what steps will you take to ensure that these bus services will be restored, and that we won't lose rail services on the Cambrian line and the Heart of Wales line?

17:40

Ken Skates 17:40:07

I'd like to guarantee to Mabon ap Gwynfor that the future of rural communities is just as important to this Welsh Government as the future of urban communities. And in terms of support for bus services and consultation with communities in rural areas, I've already spoken with Transport for Wales to ensure that, in the future, full consultations do take place with people in communities where service changes may have an impact.

I think the point that the Member makes about challenges within rural areas is particularly important in respect of the work being taken forward by both Transport for Wales and local authorities on the regional transport plans. These are hugely, hugely important plans that will enable and empower regions to develop service patterns, service delivery, for the communities that they serve. I'm a firm believer that local authorities and councillors know their communities best, and so with them having the pen on regional transport plans, supported by Transport for Wales, I firmly believe that we will see a better network of public transport for the people of Wales across all communities.

Buffy Williams 17:41:20

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for today's statement. Public transport in Rhondda is experiencing one of its biggest transformations with the promise of greener, faster and more frequent rail travel, but in Rhondda Fach there's no train service, the bypass only reaches as far as Pont-y-gwaith, and even though there are four buses an hour, residents who travel by bus are paying more than residents in the Fawr who can travel by train. There's a passionate group of people who are campaigning for over £200 million to complete the second phase of the bypass, but I think there's a much more achievable solution to be found that can be actioned far sooner. Over 600 residents shared their views with me regarding the reintroduction of the train shuttle buses, with over 90 per cent saying they'd catch the train bus and over 85 per cent saying they'd use the train more. Will the Minister please meet with me to discuss this data and the potential of a wider discussion with local bus providers, Transport for Wales and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council?

Ken Skates 17:42:27

Can I thank Buffy Williams for her request and say, yes, I'm more than happy to meet with you and your residents and any other interested party concerning the future of public transport in your communities? I think you make an invaluable point about social justice being at the heart of public transport provision, and we're determined, through legislation, through the bus Bill, to pursue social justice for people who, at the moment, are not able to get from home to services or to work easily and reliably and in an affordable way by bus or by rail. I do know that, within the Rhondda, the support that is being provided for bus services has meant that Rhondda Cynon Taf council has been able to protect and retain bus services in their areas, as well as reinstating some evening bus services on some routes, but I do note the particular challenge facing residents in Rhondda Fach, which is why I will be happy to meet with them and with you. 

Rhun ap Iorwerth 17:43:34

In the statement, the Minister says

'We have accepted the North Wales Transport Commission's recommendations for better traffic management around the Menai bridge.'

The commission's recommendations related to traffic management around the Britannia bridge. Has the Minister got the right bridge? And given his statements about being willing, perhaps, to look again at the need for the dualling, essentially, of the Britannia bridge, with a third Menai crossing, can he give us some more details about how he intends to take that forward?

Ken Skates 17:44:03

Thank you, and apologies—I thought I referred to the Menai crossing, which I always consider to be the Britannia bridge. If I said 'Menai bridge', I apologise, but I did mean to say 'Menai crossing'. 

Now, the recommendations from the Burns commission have now received financial support for taking forward, and they include interventions that can be taken forward at relatively swift pace as well that should improve resilience in that area. However, at the same time, we recognise that we need to keep an eye on the future needs of people of Ynys Môn, listen to communities, listen especially to the local authority, and to that end I will be meeting with councillors to discuss the future of the Menai crossing and a potential third Menai crossing. I have to just caveat any discussion about future road building, though, with the warning that our public finances are incredibly tight, particularly on the capital front. 

particularly on the capital front. But I do recognise, particularly with the potential of Wylfa Newydd, that there may be significant additional demand for road space and for public transport as well on the island and to the island, which will need to be addressed as part of any consideration of what is built at the Wylfa Newydd site, and the potential for additional employment. So, I will be meeting with the Member, I am sure, about the Menai crossing, whether it's part of a cross-party group or whether it's part of a bilateral between us, and I'll be very pleased to hear his views on this subject.  

17:45

Carolyn Thomas 17:45:35

I welcome the statement, Cabinet Secretary. Partnership working will be really important for councils in north Wales, as they have a lot of arterial routes with high-density residential areas along those arterial routes. I welcome that the A494 dual crossing, which has been deteriorating over the last few years, will go ahead, and can I ask you: will consultation on the plans be happening this summer, as was planned before? And just regarding locally-maintained roads as well as strategic highways, they're also rapidly deteriorating. I know we've had over a decade of austerity that has really impacted, so going forward, how will you be able to address this with your limited budget? 

Ken Skates 17:46:17

I think Carolyn Thomas makes a really, really important point about the need to maintain the road network. The road network is for all users—for motorists and for cyclists—and a poorly-maintained road network is dangerous for motorists and for cyclists. One key theme that has emerged from the discussions that I've had with leaders and lead members this week across Wales is the need to address concerns over road maintenance. Of course, financial considerations are at the forefront of what we do at the moment, given that public finances are under strain, but we are looking for every way of releasing as much money as we can to address those roads that do require urgent maintenance. 

Of course, it's also worth bearing in mind—and I stand to be corrected by the Minister for finance on this—but local authorities have been better protected during and since austerity than local authorities in England, which perhaps explains why when you drive on roads across the border you find potholes everywhere. Now, that's not to say we don't have a challenge here in Wales, but at least we've better protected councils to keep their roads better maintained.  

Luke Fletcher 17:47:37

I'd like to reiterate the point that Heledd Fychan has said already about home-to-school transport. Something that has become very clear to me since my election to the Senedd is the barrier that that does prove to many families, not just in my own region but across Wales, especially for those from low-income backgrounds. I give the example of the Llynfi valley. At the top of the Llynfi valley—there'll be Members in the Chamber who are aware of it—you have Caerau. We have a situation where children from low-income backgrounds are needing to walk over an hour to get to school in all weathers, some of them turning up to school then, if it had been raining, soaking wet and sitting in school for the rest of the day soaking wet. That is a huge barrier for many people, a barrier that shouldn't exist, and I hope that the Government will solve it as soon as possible. 

Ken Skates 17:48:24

Can I thank Luke Fletcher for making again a very valuable point about learner transport? All young people should expect to be able to educated where they wish to be educated, whether it's through the medium of Welsh or English, and should be given the support necessary. I suspect that this will be agenda item No. 1 when I meet with Delyth Jewell later this week. I'll be sure to have a thorough conversation about the future of learner travel and what we can do to help young people across Wales.  

John Griffiths 17:48:56

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today, and very much agree that there is a strong consensus I think in this Chamber and also out in our communities that the 20 mph policy is fundamentally right, and is needed to protect our communities, particularly children. That's what I hear from people in Newport East, but they do also very much agree that there are a small number of roads that could be returned from 20 mph to 30 mph without compromising that road safety that is so important. So, I very much agree with what the Cabinet Secretary has said today. 

One of the matters I'd quickly like to raise is active travel, Cabinet Secretary. It's very good that Welsh Government has made so much funding available for active travel, which I think is absolutely right, but it is unevenly accessed across Wales. Although there are different circumstances in different areas, I believe there is a case to be made for a stronger amount of central support, recognising the different capacity 

recognising the different capacity in different local authorities' highways departments, and active travel officers particularly. There's a role here for Transport for Wales, I know, but will you make sure that that central drive is there to ensure that all our communities benefit from active travel policy?

17:50

Ken Skates 17:50:16

Well, John Griffiths has always been a powerful advocate for protecting the young and vulnerable people, and I thank him for the work that he's done in that regard. On active travel, I think the Member is absolutely right that support is required by local authorities to develop plans and proposals for improved active travel, which is why we're developing those regional transport plans, with the assistance of Transport for Wales. And Transport for Wales have brought invaluable insight and advice to many local authorities already, on an individual basis and on a regional basis, and I'm determined to make sure that that support continues to be available to councils across Wales.

Jenny Rathbone 17:50:56

I very much welcome your emphasis on consulting stakeholders before you rush into decision making. I've yet to meet anybody who wants the speed limit on the road they live on to be increased, and I just wonder if you had—I'd be interested to hear from them. I think that—. You say in your statement that you plan to allow the Welsh Government to cover the cost of adjusting routes back to 30 mph. That sounds a little bit like rewarding failure to properly consult communities in the first place, given that some local authorities have interpreted the regulations very differently from others. I just want it clarified that the Welsh Government would also cover the costs of reducing from 30 mph to 20 mph in areas where people want slower speeds in their communities.

Lastly, I very much welcome your emphasis on bus priority lanes—a really important way of increasing reliability of buses, and I wondered if, in your look at supporting people to walk between home and final destinations, if you would consider making a priority of walking and cycling routes to and from school, as, obviously, children are the most vulnerable on the road.

Ken Skates 17:52:29

I couldn't agree more and, in short, yes. We do need to prioritise walking routes and cycling routes to and from schools. I believe that the latest statistics show that there has actually been an increase in the proportion of young people who walk or cycle to school. That's very welcome, but I know, from conversations at the school gate, that many more parents would like their children to cycle, or would walk with their children or cycle with their children, if the available infrastructure was there. And safety is always, always the No. 1 concern that parents raise with me, so I'm determined to pursue better active travel opportunities between houses and school environments. And in terms of supporting councils, yes, we'll be supporting councils on changes in either direction.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 17:53:18

Ac yn olaf, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar 17:53:19

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, can I ask you about the A494 in Pwll-glas and in Llanberis? You mentioned the need for appropriate speeds on appropriate roads. Clearly, the speed limit of 40 mph through both of those villages is inappropriate, and, of course, these are on the trunk road network for which the Welsh Government is directly responsible. You've indicated yourself that you feel that 30 mph is more appropriate in Llanberis; the previous First Minister undertook, very kindly, a visit to Pwll-glas, and saw for himself the inappropriate speed limit through that village and felt, in the same way that you do, that there ought to be a speed reduction. Can I ask how long it will take the Welsh Government to effect these changes on the roads for which it is responsible, not just those roads for which local authorities are responsible?

And very finally, unadopted roads are still a blight in many communities across Wales. We all have them in our communities, but I've got the biggest unadopted road problem, in an area called Sandy Cove in Kinmel Bay, which was flooded recently, and because of the lack of drains on those roads, those floods were made worse. What action is the Welsh Government taking, what resources is the Welsh Government making available, to address this blight in our communities, so that people can live on roads that they can be proud of?

Ken Skates 17:54:38

Well, can I thank Darren Millar for his questions and agree that the residents of Llanberis and Pwll-glas have been very clear—have been very clear—that the speed limit through their community should be reduced? It is something that officials within Welsh Government are aware of. I'm happy to visit either or both of those villages, if the Member would wish me to, just take a look myself again at what's happening on the ground.

myself again at what's happening on the ground. In regard to time frames for any potential change, I'd need to write to the Member because these would have to be undertaken on an individual basis, and are not part of the review that we're conducting at the moment concerning 20 mph.

In terms of unadopted roads, I think the latest position is captured in an answer to a written question from your colleague, the leader of the Conservatives, so information is on there regarding unadopted roads. [Interruption.] Sorry—it was your question. Sorry.

17:55

Darren Millar 17:55:35

It was my question. But you've already answered the points that I was raising, if I may say so.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer 17:55:38

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

And can I thank Members for keeping to their times? It allowed me to allow all Members to ask their questions.