Extract from Welsh Parliament: Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution - Mr 6

Mark Isherwood: Diolch. Last month, you and the social justice Minister released jointly the 'Delivering Justice for Wales' 2024 progress report, with a regrettably partisan ministerial foreword. The report goes on to state that

'Our mission to provide social justice in Wales requires a focus on preventative action to address the root causes of pressures on the justice system.'

It then cobbles together a list of disconnected Welsh Government policies claimed to prevent pressure on the justice system in Wales. What it fails to mention is actions taken by this Welsh Government that will have a direct negative impact on the justice system in Wales, such as withdrawing funding for the Wales schools police programme, SchoolBeat, a collaboration with the four police forces in Wales for ages five to 16. It also responds to reports of incidents in schools and supports and advises schools in a safeguarding capacity—basically early intervention and prevention.

However, the Welsh Government is withdrawing its match funding for this programme, thereby removing a key early intervention and prevention programme and stoking up costs for statutory services, including those the Welsh Government is responsible for, therefore directly contradicting the mission claimed by the Welsh Government in its 'Delivering Justice for Wales' progress report. How, therefore, do you justify cutting a programme that is designed to prevent rather than cure and to deliver a saving to the public purse?

Mick Antoniw (Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution): Of course, in the past decade, legal services and the justice system have been absolutely decimated by this Conservative Government. Legal aid and access to legal advice has been all but destroyed for a majority of people who are desperately in need of that sort of advice. We have, therefore, for example, had to concentrate funding on our single advice fund in order to try and make some recompense for the damage that has been done. We've seen also the implications of UK Government policy throughout the justice system, which has led to an increase in the prison population from 45,000 to almost 90,000, and the only solution coming from the UK Government is to invest a further £400 million in trying to create additional places within the prison system.

In terms of the youth justice system, 90 per cent of the youth justice system is actually funded by the Welsh Government. That is why there is such a logic to youth justice and early intervention being devolved to the Welsh Government. What the 'Delivering Justice' paper does is highlight a number of areas. Firstly, it highlights all those areas where we are spending money, often money in respect of non-devolved functions, to enable the justice system to operate and integrate with our devolved functions and with the justice system. We have many of those programmes, which are funded. But we do have to prioritise which ones we do the most, in view of the impact that the UK austerity policies have had on our budget, and the loss of somewhere in the region of £1.2 billion. We are nevertheless funding parts of the justice system that are not devolved to us, but we are doing that because it enables the devolved functions we have to work better, and it enables the justice system to operate better.

Mark Isherwood: Thank you. You appear to be answering questions I've asked previously, but not the actual question I asked today, which is entirely about a matter funded by the Welsh Government in partnership with the four police forces, a matter that was focused on a measure the Welsh Government can take on early intervention and prevention, which would also save money, but you've taken the decision to go otherwise.

Moving on, calling for the devolution of policing to Wales, both you and the First Minister have referred to the devolution of policing to Manchester as a model for Wales. But those are only the powers of Police and Crime Commissioners, and we already have devolution of them to Wales. For clarity, what are you therefore proposing—retention of the current regional police and crime commissioner model, centralisation of the powers of a police and crime commissioner in a national person or body, or recentralisation of powers, in this case in a Welsh Government department?

Further, are you proposing that this should apply to a single Welsh police force against the detailed recommendations of the committee of Assembly Members, as we were, including myself, appointed to consider this during a previous Senedd term, when the then Labour Home Secretary accepted and implemented our recommendations?

Mick Antoniw: Thank you for the question. The issue of policing and devolution of policing is, of course, Welsh Government policy, but it is also something that is fully supported by all four elected Police and Crime Commissioners. So, this isn't just something that emerges from the Welsh Government or from this Senedd—it is something that has much, much broader support. What I can tell the Member is that, in accordance with the statement myself and the Minister for Social Justice issued some while back, we have commissioned some expert evidence and reporting on this. A detailed report will look at the issues around the devolution of policing, how it might work, what the benefits of it are, what the challenges from it are, and it would be hoped, in the imminent future, that that will be published.

Mark Isherwood: Of course, the four Police and Crime Commissioners are politicians—two from your party and two from Plaid Cymru—so it's not surprising they support your direction of travel at the moment. Previous Police and Crime Commissioners have not been so united on that subject. But, regrettably, again—[Interruption.] It's absolutely factual. I actually met and spoke with many of them over the years, and they looked at the real evidence rather than the policy-led evidence that's driving—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer : Mark, ask your question, rather than responding to interventions. 

Mark Isherwood: The final question is again referring to the progress report. It said that the Thomas commission concluded in 2019 that the design and delivery of justice policy should be devolved to Wales, and refers to the appointment of Carl Foulkes, former chief constable of north Wales, to lead on work that will be used to

'inform a long-term vision for what a devolved policing service in Wales could look like'.

However, the Welsh Government and you are yet to explain why the Thomas commission report only makes one reference to cross-border criminality, despite the evidence of the north-west regional organised crime unit, which includes north Wales, to the Thomas commission being largely ignored in the commission's report. Unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland, Wales has a heavily populated cross-border area with an estimated 90 per cent or more of crime in north Wales operating east-west, and almost none on an all-Wales basis. Why, therefore, is the Welsh Government devoting so much time and resource to the devolution of policing to Wales when it is cutting key budgets elsewhere, including the one I referred to earlier, especially when both the UK Conservative Government and the most senior Welsh Labour MP in Westminster, shadow Welsh secretary, Jo Stevens, have rejected fresh calls for the Welsh Government to be given control of policing and adult criminal justice?

Mick Antoniw: Thank you for the question. There is a tide for reform and there's also considerable merit for reform. Of course, policing is part of the justice system, and parts of policing are integral, whether it be community safety, whether it be anti-social behaviour, whether it be a whole variety of issues that engage with devolved functions. The Thomas commission covered a wide range of areas, but it didn't cover every area. You've mentioned already Carl Foulkes; Carl Foulkes is the officer who's been commissioned to produce the work to look into the issue of the devolution of policing that I referred to earlier, so you'll be able to see the outcome of that work, I would hope, within a matter of weeks.