EU Permanent Structured Co-operation Projects Alyn Smith (Stirling)
(SNP) 1. What assessment his Department has made of the potential
merits of participating in further EU permanent structured
co-operation projects.(901512) The Minister for Armed Forces (James
Heappey) The Department’s priority is to finalise entry into the
permanent structured co-operation military mobility project before
considering involvement in other projects. However, we assess that
the...Request free trial
EU Permanent Structured Co-operation Projects
(Stirling) (SNP)
1. What assessment his Department has made of the potential
merits of participating in further EU permanent structured
co-operation projects.(901512)
The Minister for Armed Forces ()
The Department’s priority is to finalise entry into the permanent
structured co-operation military mobility project before
considering involvement in other projects. However, we assess
that the EU’s standard “third country” terms for PESCO projects
involving procurement or capability development will continue to
impose significant constraint on UK involvement.
I appreciate that the UK Government’s attitude to PESCO is to
take each project on a case-by-case basis, but may I suggest that
publishing criteria for that case-by-case assessment would be
useful? It is obvious to the dogs in the street that PESCO will
evolve at light-speed, and the UK risks missing out on a lot of
important co-operation that could be beneficial. Will the
Minister publish that guidance? Otherwise, I will be tabling 68
parliamentary questions to cover each of the 68 PESCO
mechanisms.
I note the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion, and I fear that my answer
will give him encouragement to table the 68 questions, because it
is right that we consider each opportunity in PESCO on its
merits. PESCO is a vehicle for increasing military mobility
around the continent. Non-EU NATO partners support that fully,
and the UK is among them, but industrial or technological
co-operation will not always be in the UK’s interest, or in the
interest of UK industry, so it is right that we consider these
things case by case.
Ukraine: Military Support
(Sheffield South East)
(Lab)
2. What steps he has taken to increase military support for
Ukraine.(901513)
The Minister for Armed Forces ()
During his visit to Ukraine on 12 January, the Prime Minister
signed an historic UK-Ukraine agreement on security co-operation
with President Zelensky, illustrating our long-term commitment to
supporting Ukraine. The Prime Minister announced that the UK will
provide £2.5 billion in military aid to Ukraine in 2024-25—a £200
million increase on the previous two years—to cover rapid
procurement and gifting of equipment, development of
international capability coalitions, and training through
Operation Interflex.
Mr Betts
I thank the Minister for that response. There is clearly
widespread support in this House and the country for helping
Ukraine to resist Russian aggression, but there are concerns,
given that President Zelensky has recently identified a shortage
of arms and ammunition, particularly in the light of the impasse
in the US Congress. What discussions has the Minister had with
his counterparts in the EU and other European nations about
helping to bridge the gap in the short term, and on how we will
deal with it if, in the longer term, the election of President
Trump reduces NATO spending in general, and its spending on
Ukraine in particular?
Of course, we are aware of the scepticism among Republican
presidential candidates and in the US Congress about funding for
Ukraine. That is why UK Ministers—the Foreign Secretary, the
Secretary of State for Defence, the Prime Minister and I —have
been in Washington to make the case for the US continuing to
support Ukraine, no matter the outcome of the election.
Second-guessing the outcome of the US electoral system is
probably not sensible, but notwithstanding the fantastic efforts,
led by Prime Minister Kallas of Estonia, to increase the
manufacturing of ammunition in particular, it is clear that
European manufacturing capacity is not yet at even half the
target set. That should be cause for all of us to consider how we
might urgently ramp up manufacturing if the worst comes to the
worst.
Mr Speaker
I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.
Sir (Horsham) (Con)
Ukraine can win the war, and must win the war. The Minister
touched on the provision of ammunition and equipment, but Ukraine
also needs hundreds of thousands of trained personnel. I very
much welcome the extension of Operation Interflex, and the work
that we are doing, but could we not be doing far more of that
with our allies to assist Ukraine?
My right hon. Friend is right to point to the importance of the
training effort. That gives me the opportunity to reflect on this
week being the 10-year anniversary of the Russian invasion of
Crimea, which gave rise to Operation Orbital. Since then, across
Operation Orbital and Operation Interflex, 60,000 Ukrainian
troops have been trained. Continuing to train them, not as
individuals but increasingly as formations, is undoubtedly the
key to unlocking the real potential of the Ukrainian armed
forces.
(Ross, Skye and Lochaber)
(SNP)
We have all seen the events that have taken place in the past few
days regarding the Russian offensive in Ukraine. They must act a
wake-up call to all of us. This is our problem, and our fight,
with the Ukrainians, to defeat Putin. We need to make sure that
we step up the amount of ammunition and arms that we ship to
Ukraine. We need to do that with our European partners, and we
need a plan, not just for the short term but for the long term,
so that we defeat Putin. What talks are the Minister and the
Cabinet Secretary having with our European allies to ensure that
Ukraine wins this war?
Such conversations happen all the time. Only last week, the
Secretary of State was at the latest donor conference, followed
by NATO Defence Ministers. I was in Norway a week or so earlier,
having exactly those conversations with allies. As the right hon.
Gentleman suggests, while traditional armaments such as artillery
ammunition are important, so too, increasingly, are the novel
precision weapons systems that the UK is very much at the
forefront of supplying to our Ukraine friends.
Sir (New Forest East) (Con)
Is it not time that both sides of the House came together to
agree on a common policy of increasing defence expenditure, so
that by increasing our support for Ukraine, we can set an example
to our American allies, without whose help there can be no future
for peace and security in Europe?
My colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench know that I try not
to throw gratuitous punches in the House, and I know that they
are enthusiasts for military spending, but their colleague the
shadow Chancellor has thus far declined to say that she would
adopt anything other than the 2% target for NATO spending, which
is not the same as what the Government are currently spending, or
what they currently intend to increase spending to, so the
suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest
East (Sir ) is timely. It would be
fantastic if, in the next hour, the shadow Secretary of State
were to make the same commitment as we have.
Mr Speaker
Let us try now, then. I call the shadow Secretary of State.
(Wentworth and Dearne)
(Lab)
In the last year of the last Labour Government, we were spending
2.5% of GDP on defence, a level that has not been matched in any
of the subsequent 14 Tory years.
Like the Defence Secretary, the Leader of the Opposition and I
were in Munich at the weekend, and the urgency of the need for
more help for Ukraine ran through every discussion. Everyone was
also profoundly moved by the words of Yulia Navalnaya, speaking
even after the news of her husband’s death at Putin’s hands. This
is the brutality that the Ukrainians are fighting, and this is
why UK support must not falter. We strongly back last month’s
UK-Ukraine security agreement, which the Defence Secretary has
described as “a 100-year alliance”. Will the Government take the
necessary next step and provide an implementation plan for this
year and future years, to ensure that Ukraine receives the help
that it needs now and for tomorrow?
While I am grateful for the history lesson on what was spent
under the last Labour Government, the commitment to match our
spending in a future Government was conspicuously absent from the
right hon. Gentleman’s question. However, let me return to the
collegiate spirit in which Defence questions are normally
conducted. I absolutely agree that what the Secretary of State
set out in his speech about the partnership with Ukraine requires
a strategic approach, with very long horizons set for what our
co-operation, both industrial and military, could look like.
Long horizons are fine, but Ukraine needs more help now. I am
concerned about the £2.5 billion for Ukraine that was announced
last month and described by the Prime Minister as
“the biggest single package of defence aid to Ukraine since the
war began”.[—[Official Report, 15 January 2024; Vol. 743, c.
578.]](/search/column?VolumeNumber=743&ColumnNumber=578&House=1)
The Minister has said much the same today. In response to a
question from me last week, however, he would not rule out using
that money to cover the UK’s operational costs at NATO bases.
Will he rule that out today? Will he confirm today that every
penny and every pound of the £2.5 billion for Ukraine will go to
Ukraine?
I fear that the right hon. Gentleman has missed something over
the last two years. The £2.3 billion that the Government have
provided for operations to support Ukraine has always included
not just the gifting in kind that takes the headlines, but
Operation Interflex and other avenues through which we support
the Ukrainians. The fact is that next year’s spending and that of
the year after will match exactly what we did in previous years,
in terms of the breadth of that contribution. It is also true
that the long-term strategic alliance that the Secretary of State
set out and the commitment year on year to spend more than any
other European ally are not mutually exclusive; we are doing
both.
Mr Speaker
I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.
(West
Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
On 17 February, at the Munich conference, Prime Minister
Frederiksen of the Kingdom of Denmark said:
“If you ask Ukrainians, they are asking for ammunition now,
artillery now. From the Danish side, we decided to donate our
entire artillery.”
Does the Minister not agree that allies should be a little more
like Denmark when it comes to recognising the consequences of not
meeting Ukraine’s needs?
We are full of admiration for our Danish colleagues, but the
reality is that the UK has provided almost its entire heavy
artillery capability, in terms of AS-90s. Those that we have held
on to are those that service the battlegroup in Estonia and the
very high readiness armoured battlegroup. Similarly, we have been
generous with our ammunition stocks, while retaining those that
we need for our very high readiness forces. More than that, we
have catalysed the production of 155 mm ammunition in the UK, and
even further, we have been buying up as much 152 mm and 122 mm
ammunition around the world as we possibly can. The UK’s
contribution to the Ukrainian artillery fight is not confined to
what we have in our own ammunition stockpiles; it is much, much
bigger, and amounts to hundreds of thousands of rounds.
To paraphrase a former Member, the Government’s response has been
weighed in the balance and found wanting. Given the Czech
Republic’s profound donations of artillery and shells, on top of
the Danish donation, as well as a commitment of over 1 million
shells from the EU, I hope the Minister can come to the Dispatch
Box and correct the balance. Can he advise the House on how much
of this new investment, which is welcome, is in tactical
armaments and artillery?
The overseas ammunition acquisition plan from previous years
remains broadly as it was, which amounts to about 300,000 rounds
bought on international markets and provided to Ukraine. The 155
mm manufacture acceleration is subject to a different funding
package that the Secretary of State and his Ukrainian counterpart
have been working on. It is important to note that the £200
million additional money from last year to this is focused on the
provision of drones, and those tactical drones are proving to be
most significant, in terms of their impact in the battle
space.
Army: Size
(Blackpool South) (Ind)
3. What steps he is taking to increase the size of the
Army.(901515)
The Minister for Defence People and Families ( )
The latest figure for the full-time strength of the Army is
73,520. The Army is continuing to work towards its “Future
Soldier” structure of 73,000 regular and 30,000 reserve
personnel. There are no plans to change this. The good news is
that provisional figures suggest that January had the highest
number of Army applications for six years.
Media reports have suggested that white men have been actively
discriminated against in recruitment, and that security checks
may be relaxed due to promoting ethnic diversity within the Army.
A number of senior military figures have purportedly warned that
the pervasiveness of woke ideology being pushed on to the armed
forces is a real and present threat to national security, and
will give aid and comfort to the King’s enemies. Will the planned
review of diversity policies seek to address those concerns?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, but I do not
recognise the situation that he describes. We take security
extremely seriously and ensure that all personnel have security
clearance appropriate to their job. Checks normally require at
least three years’ UK residency, but Commonwealth candidates are
permitted to accrue qualifying residency while serving, although
they cannot take up roles and ranks that require higher levels of
vetting. This policy has been in place for several years, and it
has not changed.
(Gower) (Lab)
Figures in The Times last month showed that the British Army will
shrink to as small as 67,000 by 2026 due to the crisis in
recruitment and retention. As threats to the UK increase, will
the Minister finally commit to halting the cuts that he continues
to make to the Army?
Dr Murrison
The Government are sticking to 73,000 regular and 30,000 reserved
personnel, as I said earlier. Those figures are in “Future
Soldier”, published in 2021, and they remain unchanged.
Gaza: Humanitarian Aid
(Stoke-on-Trent South)
(Con)
4. What steps his Department is taking to assist in the provision
of humanitarian aid to Gaza.(901516)
The Secretary of State for Defence ()
The Ministry of Defence continues to stand ready to support the
effort, led by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office,
to pursue land, air and maritime routes to deliver urgently
needed humanitarian aid.
Many of my constituents in Stoke-on-Trent South are extremely
concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and want to see
much more aid getting into Gaza. It is vital for the innocent
civilian population there. Will the Secretary of State update us
on what more is being done to ensure additional routes, and
particularly a sea route, into Gaza for humanitarian aid to
innocent civilians?
My hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that I have been to the
region on a number of occasions—I have visited Israel and Cyprus
twice, as well as visiting Egypt and Saudi Arabia—with the
specific intention of trying to resolve the problem that he
describes. We have already delivered 150 tonnes of aid, but the
problem is getting that aid into Gaza. Although we have persuaded
the Israelis to open Kerem Shalom, we desperately need Ashdod to
be opened, too. As we have discussed with the Cypriots, we could
then create a humanitarian aid route from Cyprus direct to Ashdod
and straight into Gaza via Kerem Shalom.
“Living in our Shoes” Report
(South West Bedfordshire)
(Con)
5. If he will continue to issue online updates on the
implementation of accepted recommendations from the “Living in
our Shoes” report, published on 30 June 2020.(901517)
The Secretary of State for Defence ()
Families are an integral part of the armed forces community. Our
commitment to them remains strong and is reinforced by the
Haythornthwaite review, the defence Command Paper refresh, the
families strategy, which was published in January 2022, and my
hon. Friend’s excellent “Living in our Shoes” framework for
delivering more family-sympathetic policies.
The families of armed forces personnel have to put up with more
separation, relocation and danger to their loved ones than the
families of any other public servants, and they often feel
slightly disenfranchised. They might not know their Member of
Parliament, and they might fear to approach them because of the
impact it might have on their spouse or partner’s career. Does my
right hon. Friend agree it is incredibly important that the
public can see the follow-through on the 86 recommendations that
the Ministry of Defence accepted in full and on the 20
recommendations that it accepted in part?
My hon. Friend will be interested to hear that I have a slightly
different number. My number is that 106 of his report’s 110
recommendations have been accepted. Regardless of the exact
figure, I entirely agree on the importance of making sure that
armed forces families live in decent accommodation. When we ask
armed forces personnel to fight abroad, they should live in good
accommodation when they come home.
My hon. Friend is familiar with the steering group, which
includes families, federations and the authors of his excellent
report, and he will be pleased to hear that it meets again on 28
February.
Armed Forces Recruitment
(Broadland) (Con)
6. What steps his Department is taking to tackle recruitment
challenges in the armed forces.(901518)
(Wrexham) (Con)
7. What steps his Department is taking to recruit armed forces
personnel.(901521)
(Preseli Pembrokeshire)
(Con)
12. What steps his Department is taking to recruit armed forces
personnel.(901527)
Mr (Old Bexley and Sidcup)
(Con)
19. What steps his Department is taking to recruit armed forces
personnel. (901534)
The Minister for Defence People and Families ( )
In a challenging labour market, we continue to apply an array of
measures to support recruitment and retention and to refine the
armed forces’ offer. These include the biggest pay rise in 20
years, flexible service and an improved accommodation offer. The
Haythornthwaite review has a key part to play, and teams have
been stood up across the Ministry of Defence to implement all 67
recommendations, working to establish a reward and
incentivisation architecture that will attract and retain the
skills we need.
I am grateful for the Minister’s answer, but the quality of
forces accommodation is also an important factor in both
recruitment and retention. Will he consider giving local
commanders greater agency in getting small repairs done locally
if the national contractors fail to act quickly enough?
Dr Murrison
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Heads of establishment
can access an approved funding pot to address minor maintenance
works, up to a maximum value of £25,000 per item, which is
extremely helpful and gets away from some of the bureaucracy
involved with the prime contractors.
Seven experienced personnel are leaving for each five recruited.
Despite the diversity and inclusion policies, some of which are
counterproductive in my opinion, and in addition to Capita’s
initiatives, last year there was a net loss of 310 servicewomen.
Falling retention rates are overshadowing operational
effectiveness. Can the Minister outline what he is doing on
retention?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and ministerial predecessor. Over
the past two years, the Ministry of Defence has put servicewomen
at the heart of developing and delivering a range of initiatives,
from uniform policies to the provision of accessible sanitary
products, mentoring, the introduction of flexible service,
wraparound childcare, parental leave, and zero tolerance of
unacceptable behaviour. There will be further measures in
response to the Wigston review, the Gray review and my hon.
Friend’s report. I pay tribute to those who have been driving
change, but it is far from job done.
The armed forces, including the 14th Signal Regiment based in
Pembrokeshire, continue to provide fabulous career opportunities
for young people. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, now more
than ever, we need to encourage Army visits to schools, and that
the long campaign by nationalists in Wales to stop those visits
damages social mobility and aspiration?
Dr Murrison
I share my right hon. Friend’s enthusiasm entirely. The armed
forces are a huge engine for social mobility. In the last year,
the Army achieved over 5,000 school engagement visits across the
United Kingdom, each at the school’s request. The British Army is
the public’s Army. It is important it engages with the people it
serves, despite the best efforts of some on the left and the
nationalists, to whom he refers.
Mr French
The London Borough of Bexley is home to several excellent cadet
and reserve units that teach vital life skills. Will the Minister
update the House on progress on the cadet expansion programme and
what work is being undertaken to strengthen the pathways into His
Majesty’s armed forces?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful for the opportunity to do so. The joint Ministry of
Defence and Department for Education cadet expansion programme is
progressing extremely well, with over 54,000 cadets in school
cadet units. The cadet expansion programme has focused on growth
in the state sector. Since its introduction in 2012, the number
of cadet units in state schools has grown by over 400% to 268
schools. Some new units have also opened in independent schools,
where there has been a 12% increase. I am sure my hon. Friend
will join me in welcoming that transformation.
(Mid Bedfordshire)
(Lab)
Local service personnel routinely cite issues in service
accommodation as a barrier to recruitment and retention, so I was
disappointed to hear that the Government have no plans to improve
the quality of the nearly 900 single-living accommodation bed
spaces in my constituency at Chicksands that currently fall into
the lowest grades. Will the Minister commit to revisiting that
decision to ensure we do right by all service personnel serving
on the base before it closes?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight the importance of
service accommodation. He will be aware of the huge Government
investment to improve the quality of both service-family
accommodation and single-living accommodation. Our people deserve
the best. It is public knowledge that they have not had the best
for some considerable time, but we are committed to remedying
that for his constituents.
(Huddersfield)
(Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister not wake up in the morning sometimes and want
to check in on reality? We have had seven Secretaries of State
for Defence since 2010 and absolute turmoil in our armed forces.
Why would people join the British Army when this Government have
run us down to 72,000 serving personnel? I campaigned when the
number went below 100,000! The Minister should wake up and invest
in the defence of our country in a troubled world.
Dr Murrison
Those are interesting reflections. I suggest the hon. Gentleman
has a word with the shadow Ministers on his Front Bench,
particularly the shadow Chancellor who, to date, has failed to
commit to the level of spending on the defence of this country to
which the Government are completely committed.
(North West Leicestershire)
(Ind)
The rise of so-called “woke” culture has been infecting our
society for many years and it should be unsurprising that it is
now infecting our military. Does the Minister think that the rise
of “woke” makes it easier or more difficult to recruit the right
sort of people into our armed forces?
Dr Murrison
I completely reject the premise of the hon. Gentleman’s question.
If he is talking about increasing the number of women in our
armed forces, Lord Etherton’s review into LGBT personnel in our
armed forces historically, or our ambition to make our armed
forces more reflective of the society from which they are drawn
and that they serve, then I am guilty as charged.
(Strangford) (DUP)
The Minister and others will be aware that recruitment across
Northern Ireland to the Army, the Royal Air Force and the Royal
Navy has always been exceptional. However, the number of
personnel in Territorial Army regiments is set at a figure that
those regiments cannot go above. Will the Minister look at
increasing the number of TA soldiers to ensure that recruitment
in Northern Ireland can exceed the current numbers?
Dr Murrison
I pay tribute to the people of Northern Ireland who, as the hon.
Gentleman says, have disproportionately contributed to the
defence of our country. He will know that we are committed to
growing our reserve forces across the United Kingdom.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
(Plymouth, Sutton and
Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
We have 24,000 fewer troops, 4,000 fewer sailors, 200 fewer
aircraft and the removal of one in five ships. The Conservatives
have failed our armed forces over the past 14 years, missing
their recruitment target every year since taking power in 2010
and hollowing out our military. Does the Minister honestly
believe that he can look the public in the eye and claim that
five more years will fix the mess that they have created, or is
it time for a fresh start?
Dr Murrison
Oh, I think the hon. Gentleman knows what I am going to say in
response to his question, and that is to invite him to have a
conversation with the shadow Chancellor to see whether she will
commit to the same level of spending on defence that this
Government are committed to and, indeed, are spending right now.
Will he make a spending commitment here and now in the House of
Commons? If so, I am all ears.
Mr Speaker
Order. May I also suggest that it is not for the Government to be
asking the questions?
Rotary Wing Enterprise
Dame (Gosport) (Con)
8. What plans he has for the future of the rotary wing
enterprise. (901522)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
The rotary wing enterprise programme seeks to improve aircraft
availability across support solutions for Apache, Chinook, Merlin
and Wildcat from within existing budgets. It will do so by
driving synergies between platforms, modernising support
solutions and pursuing delivery-focused commercial
mechanisms.
Dame
Mr Speaker, as you know, Fleetlands in Gosport has been the home
of military helicopter maintenance for more than 65 years. This
highly skilled engineering work is really key to levelling up the
area, providing much-needed jobs and opportunities. Does the
Minister agree that the MOD’s rotary wing enterprise and new
medium helicopter programme would benefit greatly from these
generations of expertise and skills right there in Gosport?
I know from my recent visit that my right hon. Friend is a
champion not only for defence in her constituency, but for
defence jobs in particular. She is right about StandardAero
Fleetlands, which is a valued actor in the maintenance of our
rotary wing platforms. The rotary wing enterprise is due to enter
its detailed design this year. As part of that, it will consider
wider social value, including the extent to which economic
prosperity is supported. But as this is a specific potential
procurement, I cannot comment any further. I also cannot comment
on the role of particular companies in the new medium helicopter
programme, but we hope to say more on that very soon.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
(Garston and Halewood)
(Lab)
The Government have delayed producing the information required
for the invitation to negotiate for the new medium-lift
helicopter four times since September 2022. Can the Minister
explain what has caused this 18-month delay? Given the reports
last week about his Department freezing capital spending until at
least the new financial year, when will the Government get their
act together to get this competition under way? Can he promise
that the delay will not push back the delivery date for this
vital capability for our forces?
I am pleased to say two things to the hon. Lady. First, we will
have the announcement on the next stage of the new medium
helicopter very soon. I am also pleased to confirm that we have
been clear on our spending position. To echo my right hon. Friend
the Minister for Defence People and Families, if the hon. Lady
wants to talk about stuff that is rumoured in the press—we do not
have those sorts of capital spending controls—can she confirm
whether the shadow Chancellor will honour our defence spending
commitments?
AUKUS
(Clacton) (Con)
9. What recent progress his Department has made on the AUKUS
partnership.(901523)
The Secretary of State for Defence ()
AUKUS partners continue to make good progress on the optimal
pathway to deliver conventionally armed nuclear-powered
submarines to Australia and to develop the advanced capabilities
required.
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. AUKUS is a bold
project that rightfully identifies the greater need for
co-operation in the Pacific between our great nations. However, I
do not think that it should be limited just to defence. In my own
report for the 1922 foreign affairs policy committee, we found
that there is not only a need, but an appetite for wider
scope—the inclusion of Canada, for example. Does my right hon.
Friend agree that AUKUS cannot just be about defence policy. Will
we be reaping the maximum benefits for Britain by consigning this
to be just a defence procurement exercise? Where is the Foreign,
Commonwealth and Development Office in all of this?
My hon. Friend is right to say that AUKUS can and should be a
programme that extends beyond the three core nations—the UK, the
US, and Australia—but that is very much a matter for pillar 2
arrangements rather than pillar 1, which the House will know is
about the nuclear-powered submarine for Australia and the joint
procurement. He will be pleased to hear that, in November, I was
in the US signing up to a programme of pillar 2 work, which could
ultimately extend to others, including Canada and New
Zealand.
Royal Navy Capabilities
(New Forest West) (Con)
10. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of the Royal
Navy’s capabilities to engage land-based targets.(901524)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
The Royal Navy has a range of capabilities to support the
engagement of land-based targets. Specific threat planning is
considered for every deployment or contingency, and measures are
taken to reduce or mitigate those expected threats as dictated by
operational priority.
What urgency is attached to the upgrading of HMS Diamond’s
defence systems?
My right hon. Friend asks an excellent question. I know that
there has been a lot of interest, following the deployment in the
Red sea, in what the lessons are. I can confirm that the Sea
Viper capability has been at the forefront of this, being the
Navy’s weapon of choice in the first shooting down of an aerial
threat in more than 30 years. It is a cutting-edge weapons
system, and I can confirm that Sea Viper will be upgraded, to
further enhance this capability against the more complex and
evolving threats that we face, including the ability to intercept
missiles in their terminal phase.
Defence Manufacturing: Employment
(Tewkesbury) (Con)
11. What assessment he has made of trends in levels of employment
in the defence manufacturing sector in the next 12
months.(901525)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
In 2022-23, the Ministry of Defence spent £25 billion with UK
industry. The most recent estimate shows that that supported
209,000 jobs across the country, of which 47,000 were in
manufacturing.
Mr Robertson
My Tewkesbury constituency contains a lot of aerospace
manufacturing, particularly for the defence sectors, but those
companies have long complained to me that they cannot attract
enough young people, particularly to take engineering jobs. The
all-party parliamentary group on aerospace, which I co-chair, has
the objective of enticing young people to go into engineering or
at least consider it as a career. Will the Government do anything
more to persuade young people to consider taking up the
engineering opportunities that are there?
My hon. Friend asks an excellent question. It helps that we have
lots of school groups and young people in the Gallery today, it
being half term. I can confirm that last year’s defence Command
Paper identified skills as a priority, including the shortage of
engineering, digital, cyber, STEM, nuclear, and space-based
skills. The defence head of profession for engineering, who also
supports the Government science and engineering head of
profession, has a defence youth engagement strategy that drives
STEM outreach activities and the encouragement of engineering
uptake in individuals aged four to 14.
Ukraine: Military Support
(Tiverton and Honiton)
(LD)
13. What recent discussions he has had with international
partners on future military support for Ukraine.(901528)
The Minister for Armed Forces ()
Everything that I had intended to say in response to the hon.
Gentleman was covered in response to the supplementaries to
Question 2.
Mr Speaker
Why was it not grouped then?
Lord Ismay said of NATO that it existed, among other things,
“to keep the Soviet Union out”
and “the Americans in”. The Foreign Secretary was misunderstood
on a recent visit to the United States when he proposed that
Congress should pass a new military aid package for Ukraine, and
he was rebuffed by some Republicans in the House of
Representatives. What can the Defence Secretary do to encourage
the US to maintain its commitment to Ukraine and to NATO?
Again, we covered this earlier, but it is an important issue. The
Secretary of State and I, and other Ministers from the MOD and
across Government, put our shoulder to the wheel whenever we are
in Washington, to impress on the US not only the importance of
its continued commitment to Ukrainian security, but that
Euro-Atlantic security is integral to US security. The US cannot
simply look towards the Pacific; it needs to remain engaged in
the Euro-Atlantic, in its own interests as well as those of NATO
allies.
(Filton and Bradley Stoke)
(Con)
On my last visit to Ukraine a couple of weeks ago, I had several
meetings with Ukrainian Ministers, who voiced their frustration
and concern about the delay in setting up joint operations with
UK defence manufacturers. Will my right hon. Friend assure the
House that he is doing everything possible to speed the process
up to allow the Ukrainians to produce their own kit, with our
help, to help win the war?
The Secretary of State and the Minister for Defence Procurement
have both been heavily engaged in this; indeed, the Minister for
Defence Procurement led a delegation to Kyiv to catalyse exactly
the idea that my hon. Friend mentions.
Emissions: Armed Forces
(Bath) (LD)
14. What steps he is taking to reduce armed forces
emissions.(901529)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
The MOD has already started its decarbonisation journey in
support of the UK’s net zero commitment. At the Royal
International Air Tattoo last year, I was pleased to sign the
defence aviation net zero charter on behalf of the MOD. Working
closely with our industrial partners, we are moving to cleaner
and more efficient technology. The Army is building solar farms,
and has invested £14 million in battlefield electrification. The
Royal Navy’s cutting-edge catalytic systems are reducing
emissions of greenhouse gases in its patrol vessels by up to 97%.
Finally, the RAF is pioneering the use of sustainable aviation
fuel.
It was a pleasure to attend the Global Charge dinner last
October, and to see so many members of the armed forces, from all
ranks, committed to tackling the climate crisis. However, the
Defence Committee has described the MOD’s current reduction
targets as “insufficiently demanding” under the greening
government commitments—they are the lowest across all
Departments. Will the Minister ensure that the next round of CC
commitments will contain more demanding targets, not least to
reflect the real ambitions and for members of the armed forces on
the ground to see the devastation of climate change?
I know the hon. Lady is very passionate about this issue. I have
just listed the ways in which the individual services are taking
steps to reduce their emissions, but we always have to balance
that against our overwhelming priority as a Department, which is
to support the ability of our armed forces to defend these
islands.
Innovative Defence Technologies
(Gainsborough) (Con)
15. What steps his Department is taking to support innovative
defence technologies.(901530)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
Defence is investing over £6.6 billion in advanced research and
development. We are working with UK industry and academia to
identify and invest in innovative technologies, ensuring that we
have the capabilities we need to defeat our adversaries.
The RAF has traditionally had a very poor record when it closes
bases in Lincolnshire—just walking away, leaving them to go to
rack and ruin—but at RAF Scampton we had wonderful schemes for
innovative defence technologies, such as a spaceport. Will the
Minister now work with the Home Office and me to try to release
the bulk of that base so that we can get all these exciting
technologies going? The MOD cannot just wash its hands of the
base, now that it has been passed to the Home Office. We are
supposed to have joined-up government.
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. As he knows, RAF
Scampton is no longer part of the defence estate, which means we
do not have formal responsibility for it. What I would stress to
him is that we are investing in innovation in Lincolnshire,
including the significant investment into RAF Waddington
associated with our Protector capability.
Trident Renewal
(Glasgow North) (SNP)
16. What recent estimate he has made of the lifetime cost of
Trident renewal.(901531)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
The Dreadnought submarine programme remains within overall budget
and on track for the first of class, HMS Dreadnought, to enter
service in the early 2030s. Inflation has remained higher than
expected for an extended period and has had an adverse impact on
the cost forecasts for the programme compared with the forecasts
from a year earlier. As the programme is in its preliminary
phases, it is too early to provide cost estimates for the
replacement warhead programme.
I think that means the Minister does not know what the total
lifetime cost of Trident replacement is going to be. Budgets in
Government Departments and households alike are under immense
pressure because of rampant inflation. Why do everybody else’s
budgets have to be under pressure but there seems to be a
blank-cheque approach to the renewal of Trident?
That is an extraordinary thing for the hon. Gentleman to say. He
knows that we will shortly be publishing, before the end of the
financial year, our supplementary estimate for the defence
nuclear enterprise for the financial year. But as he knows, there
is a cost in not having a deterrent. That is his policy: to do
away with the deterrent on a unilateral basis, despite all the
terrible threats we can see in the world and the nuclear
sabre-rattling from Russia. His policy would be abject folly. We
will invest in providing that ultimate guarantee to the people of
the United Kingdom.
(North Wiltshire) (Con)
I know that the Minister and most of the House, leaving aside
those on the Scottish National Benches, will agree that the
continuous at-sea deterrent is absolutely central to the defence
of the realm—there is no question about that at all. Does he
agree that we must find a way of replacing Trident within budget,
and that the worst possible thing that could happen to Trident
would be an SNP Government in Scotland?
I agree 100% with my hon. Friend.
Topical Questions
(Buckingham) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental
responsibilities.(901545)
The Secretary of State for Defence ()
This year I visited the United States—the White House and Capitol
Hill—to lobby on behalf of Ukraine, as discussed today; Saudi
Arabia and Egypt, given the crisis in the middle east; HMS
Diamond, to thank the ship’s crew; and our sovereign base at
Akrotiri, to thank the Typhoon pilots. Cyprus itself was also
visited. Last week I was in Brussels for the NATO meeting and in
Munich for the security conference. The whole House will know
that defence never sleeps and will wish to join me in thanking
the brave men and women who make that possible.
Will my right hon. Friend update the House on progress made at
the NATO Defence Ministers meeting, particularly with regard to
support for Ukraine?
Alongside the NATO meeting, there was the Ukraine defence contact
group—a group of 52 countries, all of which support Ukraine. The
big concern, of course, is ensuring that Ukraine has the things
that it needs now and the planning to ensure that it can sustain
the fight and push back against the enemy in 2024. That is why I
have announced £200 million for drones, and why we have a
15-nation coalition for MPI—the multinational procurement
initiative. At my request, we have also welcomed Australia to the
international fund for Ukraine, with its commitment of 50 million
Australian dollars to a fund that is now worth £900 million.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
(Wentworth and Dearne)
(Lab)
The agonies of the Palestinian people are extreme. We all want
the fighting to stop now, for hostages to be returned now, for
aid to be ramped up now, and a ceasefire that lasts permanently.
What is the Defence Secretary doing to help his Israeli
counterpart to accept that their threatened offensive against
Rafah just cannot happen?
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the seriousness of
the situation. As he has just heard, I visited Israel before the
new year and had those conversations directly. I believe that it
is in Israel’s interest, obviously in Gaza’s interest, and in the
world’s interest to see that immediate cessation followed by a
permanent ceasefire. We are doing everything we can to persuade
the Israelis of that necessity and to put pressure on Hamas, who
still hold hostages—if they were to release them, this thing
could finish very quickly. We are also helping by ensuring that
we work on plans for what happens in the north of the country and
in southern Lebanon.
(Carshalton and Wallington)
(Con)
T4. Carshalton and Wallington is home to more than 1,700 veterans
who have provided, and continue to provide, amazing service to
our great nation. What steps are we taking as a Government to
provide better support for veterans in our country?(901548)
The Minister for Defence People and Families ( )
Since 2011, the armed forces covenant and its consequentials have
been the absolute lynchpin of public commitment to those who have
served, and they have materially improved the lived experience of
the service community. The Ministry of Defence is responsible for
a number of services for veterans. The Veterans Welfare Service,
for example, supports around 50,000 veterans every year, and the
Office for Veterans’ Affairs co-ordinates across Government to
advance support for veterans and their families.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
(Birmingham, Selly Oak)
(Lab)
The number of veterans claiming welfare benefits is rising
steadily, and more than 52,000 are now in receipt of universal
credit. Does the Minister find that a cause for celebration or
concern?
Dr Murrison
I am a veteran, and I talk to veterans all the time, as does my
right hon. Friend the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs. I do not
recognise the picture that the shadow Minister describes. Since
2011, we have materially improved the lived experience of our
veteran community and their families, and we will continue to do
so—of that, he can be absolutely sure.
(Wrexham) (Con)
T7. When defence contracts are awarded, a 10% to 20% weighting is
given to social value, which is the benefit that the contract
would have for the local and wider community. Does that community
benefit apply entirely for the UK, or are overseas companies and
their communities considered equally?(901553)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
That is a very good question. The distinction is between the
Cabinet Office social value rules, which are applied across
Government and are irrespective, and the rules that the Ministry
of Defence applies to our procurement. There was discussion of
the new medium helicopter earlier, for example. When that comes
out, as I hope it will soon, we will be clear that we are looking
to incentivise a strong commitment to the UK industrial base.
Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)
T2. The MOD recently published the findings of the inquiry into
the fatal accident involving a Scimitar fighting vehicle on
Salisbury plain, in which a young soldier tragically lost his
life. One of my constituents was a witness to the accident, which
has inevitably had a profound impact on him. The Government have
said that they do not plan to make a formal response to the
inquiry report, which is a harrowing read, but they have accepted
all 52 recommendations. Does the Minister not think that the
report requires a full and formal response from the Government,
with a detailed action plan for adopting the 52 recommendations,
given the seriousness of the incident and the wider
implications—(901546)
Mr Speaker
Order. Please, just remember that this is topical questions and I
have to get other Members in.
Very simply, I read that report and, as the hon. Lady has rightly
pointed out, accepted all of its findings. We do not usually take
it further, but I will certainly be happy to take a look at the
case she has raised.
(Rayleigh and Wickford)
(Con)
On the subject of recruitment and retention, on 7 November the
Chief of the General Staff, Patrick Sanders—arguably the best
general of his generation—told the Defence Committee:
“We are taking 400 soldiers out of the field army to put them
alongside recruiters, because—guess what?—it takes a soldier to
recruit a soldier.”
Never was a truer word spoken. So when are we finally going to
sack Capita?
Dr Murrison
I thank my right hon. Friend for his question—I knew he would get
Capita in there somewhere. He will be familiar with the Engage to
Recruit programme, which is currently underway and having some
success in getting soldiers to recruit soldiers. That is probably
why, as I touched on in my earlier answer, we are now seeing some
extremely promising recruiting figures, including in January—the
best figures for six years.
(Sheffield South East)
(Lab)
T3. So far, Israel has ignored international appeals to not
indiscriminately attack civilians and not take steps that are
basically razing Gaza to the ground. It now looks as though it is
going to ignore international opinion about entering Rafah, so
has the time not now come for us to consider not selling to
Israel arms that can be used in those totally unacceptable
ways?(901547)
Arms deals and export licences are dealt with in the normal way,
but the hon. Member will be interested to hear that actually, not
many arms sales take place in the direction of Israel at all. Off
the top of my head, I think it was just £42 million last year,
and that was mostly for protective equipment.
(Devizes) (Con)
Late last year, diesel got into the water supply at the Trenchard
Lines camp near Upavon in my constituency. I commend the
resilience of the families who live there, and also of the MOD,
which acted very quickly to ensure that there was a temporary
supply of water. Those families are still living on that
temporary supply, so can the Minister assure me that attention is
being given to sorting out this problem and ensuring a permanent
supply of clean water?
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this matter—he
is a champion of the defence community in his constituency, and I
thank him for his early engagement on it. I understand that the
local authority regulator, following the completion of rigorous
testing, has confirmed that the water quality at Trenchard Lines
is acceptable, and it is now safe for personnel working and
living there to use the mains supply. I will double-check that
and write to him, but I am grateful for his comments on the
performance of the Defence Infrastructure Organisation in that
regard.
(Manchester, Withington)
(Lab)
T5. Today we have seen news of another serious attack by the
Houthis on a commercial vessel in the gulf of Aden. Do Ministers
think that more Royal Navy ships will need to be deployed to the
region, given the ongoing threat to merchant
shipping?(901551)
The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with answers I gave last week
or the week before at the Dispatch Box, when I said that we will
always look at what is happening in the Red sea. I have been
there to meet the crews myself, and will make a judgment based on
the reality on the ground. There is now also input from a
conglomeration of EU countries that are coming to join Prosperity
Guardian, and we welcome that input.
Sir (New Forest East) (Con)
In the debate on the Red sea on 24 January, I asked for
confirmation that HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark would not only not
be scrapped, but would not be mothballed. The deputy Foreign
Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield
(Mr Mitchell), with the Secretary of State for Defence alongside
him, said in response that I was
“absolutely right to detect the supportive view of the Secretary
of State for Defence.”[—[Official Report, 24 January 2024; Vol.
744, c.
402.]](/search/column?VolumeNumber=744&ColumnNumber=402&House=1)
However, a journalist was subsequently told by the Ministry of
Defence that nothing had changed, so are those ships going to be
mothballed or not?
My right hon. Friend can rest easy: I have been down to visit HMS
Albion since those questions, and I can confirm that one of those
ships will always be being made ready to sail. He can therefore
be very relieved.
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
T6. Suicide rates among veterans under the age of 24 are two to
four times higher than in the civilian population, but figures
show that this group is less likely to be in touch with mental
health services. How will the Minister ensure that young veterans
can access the support they need?(901552)
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question—she has been
consistent in her inquiry into this matter. She will be reassured
to know that across the service community, the rate of suicide is
lower than we would expect in the civilian population. There is a
subset of young men within the serving population for whom there
is an excess, and we are looking very closely at that. I very
much commend to the hon. Lady the suicide action plan that we
have published, which lays out what Defence is doing to drive
down the suicide rate in our armed forces. Whichever figure it
is, it is too high.
(North Wiltshire) (Con)
The whole House would like to see a larger Army, Navy and Air
Force—there is unanimity on that point. Central to that must be
not only the armed forces recruitment programme, but the Army
centralised training scheme. Will my right hon. Friend confirm
that the pause in capital spending by the MOD, which was
announced last week in the press, will not affect those two
schemes, and that they will continue in as full-blooded a way as
they are at the moment?
My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that there is no pause.
The approvals are flowing.
(North Ayrshire and Arran)
(SNP)
T8. The Royal Navy carriers HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of
Wales entered service six and seven years late respectively, with
their cost rocketing to over £8,000 million—more than 20 times
that of Scotland’s ferries—while being plagued with problems and
a lack of aircraft. What assurances can we have that these hugely
expensive carriers will provide the defence capability for which
they were designed?(901554)
The whole House recognises the irony of an SNP Member talking
about ships being delivered late. The whole House will want to
welcome the extraordinary work done by those on HMS Prince of
Wales who got the ship ready to leave not at 30 days’ readiness,
which is what they were ranked for, but in eight days. I would
have thought that congratulating the ship’s company would be the
right thing to do.
(Huddersfield)
(Lab/Co-op)
Does the Secretary of State remember that the British Army used
to be the biggest trainer of young men and women in the country
and that we produced so many skilled people? When can he take us
back to those balmy days?
Since 2014, we have been training 60,000 Ukrainian troops,
proving that we know how to get troops trained. We still train
extraordinary numbers. I think I am right that, on all forms of
training more broadly, we are breaking some of those records. We
will ensure that we have armed forces that are fit for the 21st
century.
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