Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op) I beg to move, That this
House condemns the Government for overseeing a 77 per cent increase
in knife crime since 2015; recognises the devastating impact that
knife crime has on victims, their families and the wider community;
acknowledges that the Government recently announced measures to ban
zombie knives and machetes; believes, nonetheless, that this
legislation does not go nearly far enough, meaning that a number
of...Request free trial
(Nottingham North)
(Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move,
That this House condemns the Government for overseeing a 77 per
cent increase in knife crime since 2015; recognises the
devastating impact that knife crime has on victims, their
families and the wider community; acknowledges that the
Government recently announced measures to ban zombie knives and
machetes; believes, nonetheless, that this legislation does not
go nearly far enough, meaning that a number of dangerous types of
knives and swords will remain legal and available on UK streets;
therefore calls on the Government to address the shortcomings of
the ban by extending it to cover ninja swords and consulting on a
further extension; and further calls for the Government to
establish an end-to-end review of online knife sales and
introduce criminal liability for senior management of websites
which indirectly sell illegal knives online.
Ronan Kanda was 16. He went to get a PlayStation controller from
his friend, and was yards away from home when he was murdered. He
was murdered by two teenagers, who used a ninja sword. They had
obtained that sword by buying it online, using someone else’s ID
to collect it. They stabbed him in a case of mistaken identity.
This is a heartbreaking, tragic story of a young life lost, with
a family trapped in the most extraordinary grief, and we are here
today because it is time that Parliament acts to tackle knife
crime head-on.
Seventy seven per cent. That is how much knife crime has risen
since 2015, according to the latest figures released by the
Office for National Statistics and the Home Office in recent
weeks. That equates to a staggering 48,716 violent and sexual
offences committed involving a knife or sharp instrument in the
past year. There is a huge human cost to this, with 261 lives
lost in the year up to March 2022—the last complete data
available to us—and roughly four in 10 murders involving a knife
or sharp instrument. For those carrying a knife, almost half of
cases led to no further action, with current rules allowing those
carrying knives to escape further sanction by writing an apology
letter.
(Orkney and Shetland)
(LD)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way because he is
describing a situation that is virtually identical to the one we
faced in Scotland 15-plus years ago. The initiative taken by the
then Strathclyde police force and the Scottish Government since
has been a very different approach to tackling it—that of
treating it as a public health and social problem, with a
violence reduction unit. There is nothing in the hon. Gentleman’s
motion that I would disagree with, but it is like playing
whack-a-mole with the different sorts of knives available. Does
not he agree that this issue requires a much more fundamental and
radical approach?
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention,
and that will be part of my case, so I am sure I will be able to
meet that test.
It feels like most days we wake up to another tragic story of
death and families torn apart. The most basic search online tells
us it is all over the country—Bristol, Feltham, Warrington,
Haverhill. My own community of Nottingham was rocked last summer
when my constituent Ian Coates and University of Nottingham
students Barnaby Webber and Grace O’Malley-Kumar were killed with
a knife, and I stand with their families in their attempts
establish the facts and failings in this dreadful case.
Things are getting worse, not better, and that means more young
lives lost, more children drawn into crime and more exploited by
criminals. We know this has a huge impact on our society:
hundreds of families crippled by grief for murdered loved ones;
life chances of young people squandered; potential left
unfulfilled; and the criminals getting away with it and going on
to cause further misery. Knife crime destroys lives, devastates
families and creates fear in our communities. That is why this
debate matters. We must invest in our young people so that they
are supported to make the right decisions in life, and we must
come down hard on those involved in knife crime—real support,
real consequences.
(Stockton North) (Lab)
Under the Conservative Government and a Conservative police and
crime commissioner, Cleveland has the highest crime rate in the
UK, and only this weekend we saw another serious stabbing a mile
down the road from me in Norton village. We hear the Government
try to talk the talk but the bottom line has to be that they are
not taking the necessary actions. I am sure my hon. Friend will
agree.
I share my hon. Friend’s view. He talks of a case in his
community, and we are waking up seemingly so many days in every
week with another case in another area in villages, towns and
cities. The public are rightly looking for action from us, and
that is what I will be setting out in my explanation of this
motion.
(The Wrekin) (Con)
I am glad the shadow Minister talked about “us”. I understand
that this is an Opposition day debate and the Government will be
criticised, but is it not the case that what the public—on the
left and the right and the apolitical—are looking for is
cross-party consensus where it can be found in this place to deal
with what is a very important issue, and that party politics
should be set aside for greater cross-party working? Does he also
agree that stop and search has a part to play? On machetes and
zombie knives, banning them is not the only solution, although it
is a good place to start, but the most radical step is to work
together.
We have been clear throughout that when the Government bring
forward proposals designed to take this issue on we will give
them our support. That is true of the forthcoming legislation on
zombie knives, although we have concerns about the scope, but
there has to be action, and where there is not action it is our
role to point that out. I think the right hon. Gentleman will
find that in the tone and spirit of my contribution: we serve no
one if we do not do that, but of course we will build consensus
wherever we can, and I hope the whole House can get behind our
motion today.
It would be a key mission of a future Labour Government to make
the streets safe and halve knife crime within 10 years. Recently,
my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and
Castleford () and the Leader of the
Opposition unveiled our plans to deliver this with a crackdown on
knife crime today and a radical youth prevention programme, and
this motion starts to build that out. We are clear: no more
loopholes, no more caveats, no more false promises—we need a
total crackdown on the availability of serious weapons on
Britain’s streets.
(Somerton and Frome) (LD)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments on this
often heartbreaking topic. My constituent Julie’s daughter Poppy
Devey Waterhouse was killed in her home with a knife already in
her kitchen. Currently, offenders convicted of murder who use a
weapon already available at the crime scene have a starting
sentence 10 years lower than those who brought a weapon with
them. Domestic violence murderers can bank on leniency. Does the
hon. Member agree that women killed by knives already in the home
need to see equal justice?
The hon. Member raises an important point that needs
parliamentary scrutiny. We have an anxiety, as hon. Friends have
mentioned many times, that crimes happening in domestic spaces
are in some way deemed less significant and that can be reflected
in sentencing. This bears our parliamentary scrutiny.
To turn to the motion, we want to see restrictions on the sale of
the most serious weapons, those with no functional purpose. Since
2015 the Government have released 16 different press releases
about zombie knives but action has been slow to follow. We are
pleased that two weeks ago we saw the statutory instrument aimed
at taking some of the knives and machetes off the streets, and,
as I have said, we will support the Government in that venture,
but I hope to hear from the Minister an explanation of why that
is a ban not for now or a few weeks’ time, but for September,
eight months away. This is an immediate problem that needs more
urgency; where is that urgency and leadership? He can be assured
of our support, so let’s get on with it.
We also believe, as set out in the motion, that we should go
further. We would broaden the ban to include a wider range of
weapons and to toughen existing rules on serration and length.
That would mean finally banning blades such as ninja swords, the
weapon that killed Ronan Kanda. His incredible family are
campaigning for this, ably supported by their Member for
Parliament, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton
South East (Mr McFadden), and they are right: any ban on
offensive weapons that would not have taken off the street the
blade that killed their son is insufficient.
There is also an unintended consequence of leaving out ninja
swords. Those who sell these weapons are indifferent to their
customers and their customers’ intentions. If colleagues think I
am overstating my case, they should just put into a search engine
“zombie knives” or “ninja swords” and look at how they are
marketed. If knives and machetes are prohibited, these firms will
just move on to pushing ninja swords at customers. This is a hole
in the Government’s plan and it must be plugged.
We can go further still here. Many banned knives continue to be
sold where young people can buy them and have them delivered to
their home within a few days. We would introduce, and believe the
Government should introduce, criminal sanctions on the tech
executives who allow knife sales on their online marketplaces—not
just Ofcom sanctions as the Government have opted for, but proper
criminal sanctions to send a very serious message to these
leaders that if their platforms are being used, and they are not
actively making sure they are not being used, for the sale of
dangerous weapons, there are going to be very serious
consequences, not ones that can be priced in as the cost of doing
business. To add to that, we must ensure we have the right tools
in law to deal with the digital age.
To drive this work forward, our motion calls for a rapid review
of online knife sales from the point of purchase through to
delivery, in particular looking at strengthening ID and age
checks conducted by Royal Mail and Border Force for UK-bound
parcels. Currently, all too often serious weapons can be
purchased online with loose ID and age checks, with little
oversight, and with no background checks. Every time oversight is
loosened and checks are not carried out properly, these weapons
potentially fall into the wrong hands and are used to kill. We
must ensure we have the most robust system possible to prevent
this. To those who carry these weapons, we need to send the
unmistakable message that the law will come down hard on them—not
apology letters, not weak warnings, but proper and serious
interventions.
(Liverpool, Riverside)
(Lab)
My hon. Friend is making a great speech. Will he support two
parents in my constituency, Leanne and Mandy, whose children were
killed by knife crime? They are calling for much stronger
sentences and greater deterrence for knife crime; does he agree
with me and their families?
I am going to set out a few of them shortly, but I would be very
interested in meeting Leanne and Mandy, if my hon. Friend could
help facilitate that, to hear what more they might want to
see.
Our commitment is for every offender to be referred to a youth
offending team and have a mandatory bespoke action plan to
prevent reoffending. As part of that we need tougher new guidance
so that serious penalties are always considered where
appropriate, such as curfews, tagging and behavioural contracts.
Too many of these are being overlooked and insufficient sanctions
such as a letter of apology being used in their stead. That is
wrong; we need stronger guidance from the centre on this. But
speaking to the point made by the right hon. Member for Orkney
and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), all of this on its own will not
resolve and remove the issue of knife crime in our
communities.
We must invest in young people, because prevention is better than
cure. We need a total approach—not an either/or, but both. That
is particularly germane to this debate, because we know that
those who seek to profit from the sale of dangerous weapons
shapeshift and adapt around legislation—that is one of the
challenges. So we must tackle demand and tackle issues that mean
that young people think they need to carry harmful weapons.
Building on the success of Sure Start—the last truly
transformative prevention programme for young children—we would
create the Young Futures programme to help prevent violent crime.
It would be a targeted programme in every area to identify the
young people most at risk of being drawn into violent crime and
of buying these products that we are seeking to restrict. We
would build around them a package of support that responds to the
challenges they face.
(Bethnal Green and Bow)
(Lab)
As well as providing support to young people—I welcome the £100
million of existing funding to divert and support young people
through preventive work—does my hon. Friend agree that it is
crucial to provide positive role models through mentoring to
every young person in the country? I have worked on that with the
charity UpRising, which I have chaired for many years. Does he
also agree that we should look at institutions such as the Royal
London Hospital and its trauma unit, which has worked on the
frontline dealing with the results of knife crime, whether in
hospitals or out with paramedics? We can draw on a great deal of
knowledge to tackle this epidemic.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because
she has done incredible work that is admired by me and the shadow
Home Secretary. A lot of what I am about to talk about is based
on that experience, because that work has been very good.
The Young Futures programme will bring together services locally
to better co-ordinate the delivery of preventive, evidence-based
interventions around a young person that help to tackle mental
health issues, substance abuse issues, and issues that people
might get into with their friends and family. We will then bring
that together in a national network that shares evidence,
delivers support for teenagers at risk of being drawn into crime
across boundaries and, where appropriate, could deliver universal
youth provision. Then, crucially—this speaks to the point just
made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow
()—we would build out from
that, with youth workers in accident and emergency units and in
custody centres, and with mentors in pupil referral units, to
target young people who are starting to be drawn to violence.
Those are change moments, particularly in healthcare and custody
settings. We know it might be the moment when an individual who
is sliding into serious violence, whether as a perpetrator or a
victim, may need that intervention. It might be the moment where
we can get that change in behaviour that will in many cases save
their lives. That is why it is so crucial that we have this
degree of investment into young people, because otherwise such
measures will not work.
(Glasgow Central)
(SNP)
The hon. Member makes good point. As the right hon. Member for
Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) pointed out, a lot of this
work has been going on in Scotland. Has the hon. Member met
Medics Against Violence, whose “Navigator” project does exactly
what he is talking about within a hospital setting? It intervenes
through people with lived experience to try to get young people
into that frame of mind where they might want to exit that
lifestyle and that violence they have got themselves into.
There is clearly much that we can learn from the Scottish
approach. I have not had the opportunity to meet Medics Against
Violence, but on the hon. Member’s recommendation I will seek to
do that. We strongly support the idea of support and mentors in
A&E and custody settings. The evidence shows that would be
highly effective.
We need to end the exploitation of children and young people by
criminal gangs, and that includes county lines. We need a new
criminal offence of child exploitation and a new serious
organised crime strategy to go after those cowards who make
millions off the back of exploiting young people. To bring the
change to deliver that, we need a new, proper cross-Government
coalition to end knife crime, bringing together those who have
key roles in tackling it and in keeping young people safe,
whether they are Ministers, community leaders, faith leaders, the
families of victims, sporting bodies, tech companies or young
people themselves. Everybody should be brought into this fight.
That is the sort of Government that we would seek to lead, if
given the opportunity.
Mr (Old Bexley and Sidcup)
(Con)
The hon. Member is making a passionate speech about bringing
various people from across Government and communities together to
tackle knife crime. When the shadow Home Secretary and the Leader
of the Opposition held a summit in east London last year on knife
crime, the Mayor of London, who is the police and crime
commissioner, was nowhere to be seen. Can the hon. Member ask the
shadow Home Secretary why?
I have to say I am a little saddened by that intervention. This
is a deeply serious issue about which the public expect to hear
answers. I do not think the public would consider the policing of
the diary of the Mayor, the hon. Gentleman or anybody else to be
part of a substantive solution. I wrote my note for his
intervention ahead of time, because I know that 86 days before a
mayoral election, the Tories are much more interested in trying
to fight that election than tackling the problem. If he really
believes that is the approach—I do not, but it is for him to use
his time as he chooses—let us put that to the people of
London.
On the point about working together, perhaps outside this House,
rather than inside it, may I say I completely agree with the hon.
Gentleman—yes, I agree with His Majesty’s Opposition—on working
together more cohesively with local authorities, public bodies,
health services and, in particular, around pupil referral units
and exclusions? There are so many disparities throughout the
country, and it makes sense to bring everybody together to look
at best practice.
That is a hugely important intervention from the right hon.
Gentleman. I have real anxieties about pupil referral units,
exclusions and internal exclusions. It was a problem prior to the
pandemic, but what we are seeing with school absence only
compounds that. There is a risk of there being a generation of
young people who are vulnerable to these types of behaviour,
unless we take the field and fight for their hearts and minds.
The right hon. Gentleman and I are in the same position on
that.
I will draw my remarks to a close, because lots of colleagues
have lots to say. The motion before us in the name of the Leader
of the Opposition is tightly drafted and calls for three of the
most pressing changes that we believe are needed to kick-start
this process: the ban on ninja swords, with a consultation on
further extensions to the proposed ban on zombie knives; an
end-to-end review of online knife sales; and criminal liability
for senior executives of those websites who do not adequately
prevent them from selling knives. We believe those are reasonable
changes that the whole House can get behind, and I hope the
Government will take them seriously. They should support this
motion today. The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire and I
have been working on the Criminal Justice Bill Committee for many
weeks, and we will be tabling changes to enact those measures,
and the Government should accept them. If they take up our ideas
before the Bill’s next stages, we will support them, but we will
not ignore the large-scale damage that knife crime is doing
across the country. The public are rightly looking to us for
leadership and action, and we stand ready to give them that.
1.07pm
The Minister for Countering Illegal Migration ()
I am grateful to the Opposition for giving me the opportunity to
respond on behalf of the Government and to speak about our record
on fighting crime, including our work to get weapons off the
streets and stop them falling into the wrong hands, which is
having a real impact.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin () said, we should remember
what this debate is all about. He is absolutely right that it is
not about party politics, point scoring, cheap jibes or sound
bites, because the truth is that serious violence and knife crime
leave the same trail of misery and devastation in their wake,
regardless of the constituency we represent. The tragic reality
is that many of us—in fact, far too many—on both sides of this
House will have had the humbling experience of sitting with the
loved ones of victims of crime whose lives have been cut short in
the most tragic ways. There is little one can say in those
circumstances that will ease the pain of losing a son, daughter,
brother or sister. It is incumbent upon us all—by “us”, I mean
the Government and the police, but also each and every one of us
here who contributes to public life—to strain every sinew to stop
others suffering as they have.
(Twickenham) (LD)
I have also been in the situation in the past month of having to
write to the mother of a 21-year-old young man who was stabbed to
death at Strawberry Hill station in my constituency last month.
Understandably, parents, teenagers and other young people are
raising concerns with me about how we can tackle this huge
increase. In London alone, as the Minister for Crime, Policing
and Fire will know, we have seen an increase of almost a fifth in
knife crime since 2022. If we are to ban all these weapons, we
need good intelligence-led community policing, but in London
since 2015 we have seen our police community support officers cut
by a third. What assurances can the Minister give my constituents
that we will see an uplift in police officers, including in
places such as Richmond upon Thames, which are often
deprioritised because they are seen as safe areas? No area is
immune from knife crime.
I agree with the hon. Lady’s last point. Given the
representatives in the Chamber, I think a lot will be said in the
debate, and rightly so, in relation to crime and knife crime in
London, including by her. It is right to say that every time
somebody picks up a knife or another dangerous weapon, there is
the potential for bloodshed, and every time somebody arms
themselves, whether for protection or with violent intent, they
risk ruining not only others’ lives but their own life. That has
been brought home time and again in the most devastating fashion
in recent days, weeks and months. My thoughts and prayers are
with the family and friends mourning such devastating losses. It
is any parent’s worst nightmare.
That the victims are so often young people with their whole lives
ahead of them makes it all the more unbearable. In our shock and
our grief, we must remain steadfast in our conviction that we can
get knives and other dangerous weapons off our streets and that
we can prevent young people from getting drawn into violent crime
in the first place.
In the spirit of the intervention that my right hon. Friend the
Member for The Wrekin () made on the shadow
Minister, I would like to reflect on a debate before the recess
led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills
(). During that debate, in which
there was cross-party support, my right hon. Friend mentioned the
Knife Angel in Aldridge-Brownhills, in the borough of Walsall.
She also mentioned a campaign by the Brindley family, and the
Brindley Foundation that was set up to bring about positive
social action as a result of a tragedy. My hon. Friend the Member
for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr French) made powerful interventions
during that debate.
It is right to look at the numbers and the latest data. The
latest data on hospital admissions of under-25s following an
assault with a sharp object show a 25% reduction since December
2019. That is a good indicator—the most reliable indicator for
serious youth violence. My right hon. Friend the Policing
Minister will in due course mention the crime survey, which shows
that violent crime has reduced by 51% since 2010. It is also
right to say that nationally homicide has fallen, but it is
obvious that data on a chart provides no comfort for victims’
families, and that any incident of serious violence or knife
crime is one too many. That is why the Government are continually
looking at what more we can do to protect our citizens—especially
children and young people—and drive those numbers down
further.
The police are on the frontline in this effort. Forces up and
down the country are aware that this is an issue of significant
public concern, and they are firmly committed to tackling it. It
is right that I, as a Dorset Member of Parliament, mention our
police and crime commissioner , and I pay tribute to him,
the work he is doing and the crime plan that he has put together
for Dorset.
Thanks to our recruitment drive, which has delivered the promised
20,000 extra officers, we have significantly bolstered the police
across England and Wales. With every additional officer, the
ability of forces to crack down on weapons carrying and violence
is strengthened. That includes through the natural deterrence
that flows from an increased police presence. There is the added
benefit of reassurance to all our communities, who are clear that
they want to see more officers on the beat.
Of course, it is about not just how many police officers there
are, but what forces do with the resources and powers given to
them. The Government have consistently and publicly backed the
police to take the toughest possible stance when it comes to
addressing serious violence, knife crime and weapons carrying.
That includes supporting the use of stop and search, which is a
crucial tool. Since 2019, the police have removed 120,000 knives
and dangerous weapons through stop and search surrender
programmes and other targeted action.
On that specific subject, every knife seized through stop and
search is a potential life saved. In the year 2022-23, stop and
search resulted in about 74,000 arrests and removed over 15,000
weapons and firearms from our streets. The significance of stop
and search should not be downplayed, because every knife or
weapon seized is a potential life saved.
On criminal sanctions, the motion tabled by the Opposition—they
will have to forgive me—is too generic, too sweeping and perhaps
too adversarial. On criminal liability for the senior management
of websites that indirectly sell illegal knives online, however,
what is the Government’s current thinking—unless, perhaps, the
Minister does not want to tell me—vis-à-vis the Criminal Justice
Bill, on which I know he is working closely with the shadow
Minister?
The Criminal Justice Bill is passing through Parliament, having
had its Committee stage. I do not want to steal the thunder of
the Policing Minister, who will wind up the debate on behalf of
the Government, but I encourage my right hon. Friend to be here
for that.
In the round, we have some of the toughest knife crime laws in
the world. For example, it is illegal to carry any fixed-bladed
knife in public without a good reason, with such an offence
carrying a maximum sentence of four years in prison. The
Offensive Weapons Act 2019 strengthened the law on the sale and
delivery of knives to under-18s.
(Hastings and Rye)
(Con)
On tougher sentences—I know that the Government are bringing in
very tough sentences for knife crime—does my hon. and learned
Friend agree that it is not just about tough sentences? Knife
crime is due to a number of factors, including socioeconomic
factors, gang activity, the county lines drug trade, which
affects us in Hastings and Rye, and social media influence. Does
he agree that building trust between communities and law
enforcement is as important as effective community policing and
tough sentences, and that as part of that building of trust,
raising awareness about knife crime and educating young people
about the risks can deter them from carrying weapons?
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I will turn
directly to violence reduction units, which will help to address
some of those points.
The fact is, where gaps or loopholes are identified, we have
shown time and again that we will do what is necessary, and we
will always put the law-abiding majority first. My right hon.
Friend the Member for The Wrekin mentioned the Criminal Justice
Bill, which is the latest illustration of our unwavering
commitment to that mission. It will give the police more powers
to seize dangerous weapons, create a new offence of possession of
a bladed weapon with an intent to harm, and increase sentences
for those who import, manufacture or sell dangerous weapons to
under 18s.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye () mentioned, as well as
tough enforcement, an emphasis must be placed on prevention. It
goes without saying that the best thing we can do to make all our
communities safe is to stop these crimes from happening in the
first place. May I mention and develop my point on violence
reduction units, which bring together communities and local
partners to tackle the underlying causes of violence in the first
place? She will be interested to hear that violence reduction
units identify young people in danger of following the wrong
path, bringing together key partners from local authorities, the
police, health, communities and beyond to better understand the
local drivers of violence and provide intensive support through
mentoring programmes and the like. I know that she and other hon.
Members—across the House, I hope—will support the work going on
there.
In addition, we have supported the police in their implementation
of the Grip hotspot patrols programme. Taken together, these
initiatives have prevented more than 3,200 hospital admissions
for any violent injury since funding began in 2019. This shows
the real-world impact that our approach is having as we strive
relentlessly to break the deadly cycle of violence that robs
young people of a future and destroys families.
(Rother Valley)
(Con)
The Minister is making a powerful speech. Does he agree that the
best thing we can do is to put police stations on our high
streets, such as in Maltby, Dinnington and Swallownest in Rother
Valley? I am sure he is aware that the Labour police and crime
commissioner has underspent his budget this year to the tune of
£3.5 million—money that could have been used to reopen police
stations and get them going. Does the Minister back my campaign
to use that underspent money to get police stations on our high
streets?
My hon. Friend is a powerful advocate for his community; I know
he will continue to champion this important issue and continue
his campaign. I look forward to his further contributions, and I
am grateful to him for raising that point. It is right that
through the concerted efforts of the Government, police and
partners, we have shown that this threat can be addressed, but we
will not stop there.
(Normanton, Pontefract and
Castleford) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for responding to this immensely important
debate, but may I press him on the specific issues in the motion?
Will the Government launch a new consultation on including ninja
swords in the ban on online knife sales? If he agreed to that
today, we would make a significant step forward.
The right hon. Lady will know from my response that I referred to
previously that the police have told us the greatest risk is the
criminal use of zombie-style knives and machetes. That is action
that is already being taken, but we will, of course, keep the
matter under review. We will not stop there: we will continue to
think of the victims and their families, and reaffirm our
commitment to getting weapons and knives off our streets. We can
and must stop knife crime and make our communities safer. That is
what this Government will work tirelessly to achieve.
1.22pm
(Bristol South) (Lab)
I rise to speak conscious of the tragic deaths of two teenage
boys stabbed in my constituency last week, and the very live
police inquiry being conducted. My thoughts are with the families
and friends of those boys, in particular during this debate. I am
conscious that we have had many debates on this subject, and that
there are many Members present whose communities have also been
hit by similar tragedies, but lamentably those debates have not
stemmed the rise in knife crime, as we saw in my own community
last weekend.
Over the past few months, regular meetings with the police were
already being held in Knowle West, set up by some amazing women
in the community. Fortuitously, a meeting was held on the Monday
after the events, which I was able to attend, where people came
together to express their grief and sorrow. There was a strong
message at the meeting. The people there were very clear that
they could see that events had been leading to a tragic outcome,
and they wanted to know, where have the resources from their
communities gone? Where are all the police on their streets? What
has happened to their local healthcare and mental health services
to support young people? What has happened to their youth
services? What has happened to the council funding for services
that make those streets and communities fit for living in, such
as street cleaning, and make our communities so vibrant? Despite
the high-falutin’ statistics thrown around in this place, those
people know that their community has lost out. People in Knowle
West and the rest of south Bristol, like those across the
country, have seen those services disappear because of political
decisions made in this place since 2010. I am unashamedly
political about that point, because those decisions have
consequences in our communities.
I pay tribute to Avon and Somerset police for the preventive work
they were doing with those communities before these tragic
incidents and for the way they have worked since, and to Bristol
City Council and organisations such as Youth Moves and Bristol
City Football Club’s Robins Foundation, which have been doing
amazing work for a long time, but particularly in the past couple
of weeks. Despite that, and despite working with the voluntary
and community sector across Bristol, they cannot fill that
gap.
The very clear message from that meeting, and indeed from our
city, is that we are totally united in getting these crimes and
these criminals off our streets. However, we need much more than
the basics. These communities deserve the resources to help young
people to thrive, and we owe it to the families of the boys who
lost their lives to do everything we can to ensure that it does
not happen again.
My constituents are looking for answers on how we can prevent
crime, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North
() said, we also need to give
them action. We have to redouble our efforts to bring Government
support back into these communities to enable our local
authorities, schools and the police force to take the preventive
measures we need to tackle knife crime. It is vital that there
are tough consequences for those carrying lethal weapons, and
there must be sanctions, but we also need early interventions to
stop young people being drawn into crime. As my hon. Friend said,
the cowards who bring young people into crime must also face
strong sanctions.
Working with the community, as the police are doing in South
Bristol, is vital to help to intervene on early criminal
behaviour. However, we also desperately need Government support
for youth services and mental health support in schools to ensure
that young people are safe. I pay tribute to all the schools
working so hard across south Bristol to ensure that young people
are safe and encouraged to go back into school and back out to
live their lives. Young people need to be listened to and,
crucially, have that stake in our society. That is why bringing
together local partnerships of schools, neighbourhood policing
and community groups is so important to prevent crime and tackle
the crisis among young people. The communities I represent across
south Bristol need to know that we in Westminster understand the
urgency and the devastating effect that knife crime is
having.
I hope the Government will do more to address the shortcomings of
the current proposals by extending the ban to cover ninja swords
and introducing criminal liability for the senior executives of
the websites that are still selling those weapons online. We need
a properly resourced cross-Government effort to tackle crime,
with tough consequences for the perpetrators, support for the
victims and a renewed focus on prevention.
1.27pm
(Cities of London and
Westminster) (Con)
A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting in a meeting of an all-party
parliamentary group in Parliament when I received a call from my
17-year-old son’s school. It is unusual to get such a call, so I
took it. His head of year informed me that he had been mugged by
several youths wearing balaclavas and carrying knives. You can
imagine my feelings of utter shock and concern for my son, Mr
Speaker. It suddenly dawned on me that I was not alone; there are
so many mums who receive that call. Sometimes, that call is
tragic, and those mums never get to see their son again—or their
daughter, although it is quite often our sons who are
involved.
I am relieved to say that it was a case of mistaken identity and
my son had not been mugged—he had witnessed the mugging further
up the street. However, it reiterated the fact that nobody is
immune from knife crime. It is not a socioeconomic issue that
affects only certain demographics, but can hit any family, as we
have seen in too many situations in this country over the years.
It can be the kids of middle-class professionals or kids from
estates—it does not matter. Knife crime will affect every child
who is out there. That is why we all have to work together to
ensure that our children are safe when they go out. I am one of
those mums who cannot relax when my children are out until I hear
that key in the door. I know I am not alone in that.
This is not a modern phenomenon that is happening only now. It
has happened for decades, and we must get a grip of it. Eleven
years ago, a 16-year-old boy was slaughtered in Pimlico in my
constituency. Hani was attacked by a group of young people and
murdered. Five young men were sentenced to 26 years at His
Majesty’s pleasure. It dawned on me that because Hani lost his
life, his mother Pauline will never hear his key in the door. The
lives of the young people involved in that murder have also
ended, as have the lives of their families. We must do more to
ensure that children do not spend the rest of their lives in
prison. Of course we do not want more victims, but those involved
in such heinous crimes often are victims themselves, because they
are involved in county lines or drug crimes. We must deal with
that.
Unfortunately, my constituency is a hotspot for the Met. It has
the highest number of knife or sharp instrument offences recorded
in any borough of the Metropolitan police force. In the last 12
months, 1,930 knife offences were recorded in Westminster
alone—an increase of more than 18% on the previous year.
The Office for National Statistics showed that for the year
ending March 2023, Sussex recorded 59 offences per 100,000
people—below the national average of 87 per 100,000. We have seen
a 16% reduction in knife crime for that period. In contrast, for
the Met police—the highest funded force in the country—ONS
figures show a 22% increase in knife crime in London. That has a
knock-on effect on all the surrounding counties. Does my hon.
Friend agree that the Labour Mayor of London should take a leaf out of the
book of Sussex Conservative police and crime commissioner , and get a grip of serious
knife crime—
Mr Speaker
Order. If the hon. Lady wants to speak, I will put her on the
list of speakers, but her intervention is far too long and others
want to speak. She has been here since the beginning of the
debate, so I will certainly put her on the list if she
wishes.
I agree with my hon. Friend. As the largest city in the country
with more than 9 million people, London will always have higher
statistics, but it is being let down. Londoners have constantly
been let down for eight years because of the current Mayor’s
failure to get a grip of knife crime. Too many families across
London have been affected by knife crime and have lost their
beloved children.
There were 156 knife offences in December 2023 alone. That will
not stop unless we get a grip of it. It has to be a holistic
approach. It is not just about stricter sentences; they have a
part to play in the criminal justice system, but we must get to
the nub of why young people carry knives in the first place. I
have always believed that someone who carries a knife is more
likely to use one. I am so concerned that today, too many young
people feel that they have to carry a knife for their own
protection. We must persuade our young people that there is an
alternative. We have heard about different approaches from
several Members. We should learn from what is happening in
Scotland, which has a lot to offer.
We need a public health and community approach. When I was
cabinet member for public protection at Westminster council in
2013, I was shocked to find that Westminster—a borough that
people think of as affluent, with areas such as Mayfair,
Belgravia and the west end—was No. 3 in the Met’s serious youth
violence table in 2013. We were even higher than Hackney. I
remember going to see the then deputy Mayor for policing, now my
right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (), who told me that if I did not get on top of the
problem immediately, it would only get worse, and it would never
change.
I immediately worked with my brilliant officers at Westminster
City Council and the police to establish the first ever
integrated gangs unit. I set up a scheme called “your choice”,
because I wanted to send a message to young people that they had
a choice: they could be involved in gangs and knife crime, but
that would end either in the morgue or in prison. There were
alternative ways, where young people could work with us. I was
clear that we had to understand why young people were involved. I
also sent a message to the parents. Often, parents do not know
what their young people are getting involved in when they are
out, and they do not know how to handle the problem. I offered a
helping hand to parents. I am delighted to say that we went
straight back down those tables within a year to where we are
usually, around 16th out of 19.
There needs to be a full approach, where all the agencies work
together. The integrated gangs unit included the police,
probation, special needs, schools and social workers.
Interestingly, we discovered that a lot of young people on the
periphery of knife crime had speech and language issues. They
could not properly communicate, and they had not really
progressed since primary school. They had had a nightmare moving
into secondary school, and they had been lost in the system. We
grabbed those young men, and I am delighted that we improved the
situation. We have to work together. It should not be a political
issue but a community issue where we all work together, as our
young people deserve.
We have heard about violence reduction units. We have one in
London, run by a very impressive woman, Lib Peck, whom I have
known for a long time. She is not getting the backing and
seriousness from the Mayor of London, . In 2018, he held a knife crime
summit just before the local elections. The then Home Secretary
attended, as did the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and the
deputy Mayor for policing. The Mayor chaired it—he did not speak;
he was not held to account. I will never forget that he never
allowed himself to be held to account on the situation. He has
got to be held to account.
(Luton North) (Lab)
We talk about accountability, but it works both ways. I agree
with everyone who has said that the result is not political, as
it affects all political stripes, but we have got here because of
political decision making. The hon. Member talks about children
not being able to speak or read or write—that is the political
decision of 14 years of this Government eroding our education
system. We talk about not enough resources for the police—that is
a decision to erode community policing. Will the hon. Member take
some responsibility for 14 years of this?
I have to gently push back. We have come up from 25th in the PISA
tables under the previous Labour Government to 14th for reading
under the Conservative Government, which is an impressive result.
I am sure that the Policing Minister will mention later that this
Government provided the current Mayor of London with funding for
1,000 extra police officers, but he failed to recruit those
officers and the money went back into the pot, to be given to
other police forces, which I am sure have taken advantage of it.
This is not a political issue. I take responsibility for the
period in which I was leader of Westminster City Council when we
cut youth services, and saw a direct link to problems on the
streets. I put my hands up to that, and we put £1.5 million back
into the pot. It is right that we make sure that young people
have choices and the ability to do things after school and
college, and that we give them the best start in life.
We are talking today about a knife and sword ban and the
legislation that would be required. I find it quite incredible
that manufacturers do not take the responsibility they should
take, and that they can use loopholes in legislation. They get
away now with producing zombie knives without writing on, because
zombie knives with writing on are banned. I cannot understand why
anyone would want to manufacture zombie knives; there is only one
use for them, and that is not a use we want to see. I suggest
that Ministers produce more flexible legislation that talks about
“blades”, rather than focuses on specific products. We need to
widen the legislation to cover many existing and future products.
It is also important that we look at other corporates, such as
record labels that willingly put out drill music, which often
celebrates gang culture. There must be a direct link to young
people feeling that to carry a knife and to be willing to use it
is culturally the right thing to do.
I welcome this debate. It is important that we work together,
across the parties, to send a clear message to all young people
that carrying a knife is not a solution. Every young person in
this country, in whatever town, city or village they live,
whatever their background, deserves to be safe.
1.41pm
(Batley and Spen) (Lab)
I am pleased that the Opposition secured this debate today. It is
an important debate and an emotional one for many of us,
certainly for me.
Serious violence, including knife crime, is a critical issue in
cities, towns and villages across the country. It is important to
acknowledge that it is not just a London problem; it affects many
constituencies across the whole country. Knife crime alone has
risen by 77% since 2015, and the impact is felt widely—not just
the devastating and all too often fatal impact felt by immediate
family and friends, but the trauma and distress felt by the wider
community.
In Batley and Spen, unfortunately we have felt at first hand the
traumatic and life-changing impact of knife crime. Since my
election, I have worked with two extremely brave local families
whose lives have been torn apart by truly dreadful incidents
involving horrific attacks with knives. , from Birstall, was stabbed
to death in January 2020 outside the factory where he worked,
just doing his job; the attack was carried out by two youths
wielding a samurai sword in what the judge called a “frenzied and
senseless” assault. Robert’s wife, Elaine, is a remarkable woman
who has shown incredible strength and selflessness following this
heinous attack. She is determined to raise awareness of the
horrors that knife crime inflicts on families and communities.
Despite her unimaginable personal pain, she speaks to young
people in schools about her experience, to help them to
understand the potentially life-changing consequences of carrying
a knife.
In June 2020, just a few months after Robert was killed, Bradley
Gledhill, a local 20-year-old, was attacked and stabbed to death
in Batley by six young men, five of whom were teenagers. This
despicable attack on Bradley and on two of his friends, who were
seriously injured, shook the community. It was unprovoked, robbed
a young man of his future and showed the very worst of humanity.
Having met his incredibly strong mum, Kelly Hubbard, and his
sister, Bryony, I do not have the words to describe the trauma
and devastation wrought upon Bradley’s family. Like Elaine,
however, they have channelled their trauma, with incredible
resilience and strength, to campaign to tackle knife crime by
establishing the “Bin the Blades” campaign on social media, and
working with local schools, speaking to students to convey at an
early age the seriousness of this issue and the consequences of
carrying dangerous weapons.
I recently worked with Elaine, Kelly and Bryony on a
soon-to-be-released short film, commissioned by the BBEST group
of schools across Batley and Birstall, specifically about the
horrors and impact of knife crime, in which I also reflect on my
personal experience of the murder of my sister, , in 2016. It was an extremely emotional experience for
all of us, but we all felt that we had a duty to spread the
message about the real horrors and personal impact that knife
crime can have. This important work is having an impact, and I
cannot praise these brave individuals and the schools involved in
the project highly enough for what they are doing. No other
family should have to go through what these families, the other
families we have heard about today and my own family have gone
through.
Sadly, there is no single simple solution to eliminate knife
crime and remove dangerous weapons from our streets. Families and
communities need national leadership if we are to tackle this
most serious of issues, and I am always happy to work across
parties, but the national leadership has been lacking in recent
years. That is why I am pleased that Labour has a five-point plan
that will deal with knife crime in a holistic, multi-agency
way.
Of course we need tougher consequences for carrying a knife and
of course we need more officers on our streets, but we also need
early intervention in schools, including youth hubs. We need
youth workers embedded in A&E units, pupil referral units and
custody centres, and the establishment of mental health and
mentoring programmes. We must also, finally, crack down on the
availability of these hideous weapons and take action where,
sadly, the Conservatives have failed to do so. We should also go
after the gangs and tackle the exploitation of young people who
are drawn into criminality. All of this should be co-ordinated
across Government in a Home Office, Health and Education approach
that addresses the root causes of the issue, not just the
symptoms—an approach that will break the chains of criminality,
prevent young people from getting into these groups and gangs,
and, if they are drawn in, provide help and mentoring by offering
a tailored and supported route out.
Like colleagues across the House, I visit schools in my
constituency most weeks, as well as local community groups,
sports clubs and businesses. I applaud the work they do across
Batley and Spen to build strong communities, but I also hear
about the fear many of them feel about antisocial behaviour and
violence, including knife crime, in our communities, and their
worries about young people being drawn into dangerous behaviours,
or simply ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Only a tough approach, but one that is targeted and multi-agency,
will succeed. It is hard work, and it will take time, resources,
determination and co-ordination. It is not a gimmick. The Labour
plan demonstrates how seriously we take this issue, with our
mission-led approach, which has been sorely missing in recent
years. Only Labour has a detailed plan to make our towns and
villages safer, to restore safety to our communities and to get
these dangerous weapons off our streets. We owe it to Robert and
Bradley, to their families and to all the other families we will
hear about today to put that plan into action. I am pleased to
endorse the Labour plan today.
Madam Deputy Speaker ( )
On behalf of the whole House, let me say to the hon. Lady that we
all appreciate the courage it takes for her to speak on this
subject. We as a House, and as friends and acquaintances, will
never forget the sacrifice made by her sister, , while she was carrying out her duties as a Member of
Parliament.
1.48pm
Mr (Old Bexley and Sidcup)
(Con)
I would like to place on the record my thanks to the hon. Member
for Batley and Spen () for her courage in
speaking about her personal experience.
We have heard a lot about how this should not be a political
debate, but I am afraid that the choices made have been very
political. “London highlights what Labour can do in power”—not my
words, but those of the Labour leader in a rare moment of
consistency. For once, I agree with him. Just look at the
regional crime data and at the data specifically for our capital
city, London. The only “PC” Londoners are likely to come across
is political correctness. The two areas where knife crime has
risen the most, London and the west midlands, both have a Labour
police and crime commissioner in charge. If those two areas are
taken out of the national figures, they show that across the
country knife crime actually fell last year, proving yet again
that the shadow Front Benchers need to get their own house in
order before preaching to others.
“Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime”—empty words that
we have heard Labour politician after Labour politician parrot
for the last 30 years. But when they were in power, those words
from the pound-shop Blairites could not have been further from
reality. For all the playground politics of this place, we must
remember that these failures have real-life consequences for both
the victims of crime and our communities.
When I was growing up in Bexley, one of London’s suburbs, life
was always relatively safe, with Bexley consistently ranked in
London’s top five safest boroughs. Issues such as knife crime and
gang crime were viewed as a distant inner-city issue, which many
families, including my own, thought they had left behind when
they chose a better life for their children in Conservative-run
Bexley. Fast-forward to today, and while Conservative-run Bexley
is still one of the safest boroughs in London, with a crime rate
approximately a third lower than that of the rest of London,
fears about knife and gang crime on our doorstep are very real.
Several serious incidents have tragically taken place in my
constituency in recent months, and my thoughts remain with all
those families, and those across London, who have lost loved
ones.
The latest crime rate data highlights the fact that violent crime
has been on a consistently upward trend since became Mayor, and tragically
Bexley is not immune from Labour’s shameful record in London over
the past eight years, which has seen more than 1,000 people
killed. Life after life has been destroyed by the scourge of
knife crime in London, with Londoners let down time and again by
politicians in this place who are not brave enough to openly back
effective policing measures such as stop and search, which take
an average of 400 dangerous weapons off the streets each month.
The Labour spokesman could not even bring himself to mention stop
and search today. Let us not forget that it was this Labour Mayor
of London who openly pledged to
“do all in my power to further cut”
the use of stop and search.
(Dulwich and West Norwood)
(Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr French
Now look at the state of London after eight years of Sadiq Khan’s
politically correct policing. Just look at the data. In London,
we have seen a 54% increase in knife crime since Labour took
office. According to the Met’s official data, the number of stop
and searches carried out in 2023 was 18.9% lower than it had been
in the previous 12 months, and at the same time knife crime
offences rose by 17.1%.
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr French
Before anyone accuses me of stoking a culture war—which, as we
all know, is the left’s new buzzword to try to shut down critical
debates about their woke ideas—let me also point out that the
official data shows that white people were the most searched
ethnic group in this period: 10,000 more over a two-year period.
That is why I make no apology for my support for frontline
officers using the likes of stop and search to help take
dangerous knives off the streets, and why I back this Government
to close the legal loopholes on zombie knives and to roll out
scan-and-search technologies as quickly as possible. As
politicians, we should all be showing real leadership in this
place and doing the same.
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr French
The public have rightly had enough of empty gesture politics and
warm words from politicians when yet another life is
unnecessarily taken. They want action. They want their political
leaders to get a grip on crime and make all our communities safer
again. In London, the need to get a grip on crime and get back to
basic policing could not be clearer. Not only are the
Metropolitan police in special measures, but their leadership now
faces a confidence crisis, from the perspective of both the
public and many serving frontline police officers. Morale in the
Met has arguably never been lower. It is little wonder, when
decent, hard-working frontline officers feel that time and again
they do not have the backing of the Mayor and their leaders to do
the dangerous job of being a police officer in London, whether
that means using stop and search to take dangerous knives off the
streets, or specially trained firearms officers still having the
confidence to pull the trigger in those split-second
life-or-death moments when they guard us in places like this.
I am genuinely sad to say that I was not surprised to learn that
the Met was the only force in the country that had failed to hit
its recruitment target, despite millions of pounds in support
being provided directly by the Government. That is yet another
failure on the part of the Labour Mayor and police and crime
commissioner, and one that has cost London more than 1,000 police
officers—1,000 extra police officers could be walking the beat,
actually attending burglaries or helping to stop what feels like
a never-ending rise in knife crime. Seriously, what chance do
ordinary Londoners have when criminal gangs roam the streets of
London targeting their next victims, with the only questions
normally being whether a watch, a car or a phone has been stolen
this time, and whether the police will even bother to investigate
the crime?
True to form—and this is what Labour Members are trying to do
here today—the Labour Mayor of London continues to deflect all of
these failures on to the Government, rather than taking any
accountability as the police and crime commissioner for London.
In fact, I understand that the Office for Statistics Regulation
recently had to correct Sadiq Khan’s misinformation on knife
crime, stating that it had “significantly increased across” his
tenure and not declined, as he had claimed.
Quick to plead poverty at every opportunity, the Mayor always
manages to find money for his mates or money to waste on his
latest pet projects rather than more funding for frontline
policing. All that is paid for, of course, from the wallets of
Londoners, including a staggering £200 increase in the Mayor’s
share of council tax and his continued hammering of motorists
across London. And look how he spends taxpayers’ hard-earned
money, with £30 million for his union mates despite a record
number of strikes—
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr French
He has spent £29.5 million on additional staffing costs,
including a 57% rise in Mayor’s Office costs and a 33% rise in
press office spending; and let us not forget the £10 million for
Met officers to learn what colour their personalities are. Now I
do not know what colour my personality is, but what I do know
from my experience of life is that when you see red ahead, you
should follow the warning signs and stop. When it comes to crime
and transport, the Great British public should look very closely
at the sorry state of our capital city to see the big bright red
warning sign highlighting what to expect if another left-wing,
human rights London lawyer were ever in charge of our United
Kingdom.
As the Leader of the Opposition has said himself, London
highlights what Labour can do in power. With taxes up 70%, with
London now officially the slowest city in the world in which to
drive—that is, if your car has not already been stolen—and with
more than 1,000 people tragically killed under this Labour Mayor,
a Labour-run United Kingdom is a scary prospect indeed.
1.57pm
(West Ham) (Lab)
I wish I could say that it is an honour to follow the hon. Member
for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr French), but I would not like to
mislead the House in any way.
Mr French
In what way?
Ms Brown
No—I mean that I, not the hon. Gentleman, might mislead the House
by saying that I enjoyed his extraordinary rant. Let me gently
say that if he wants to audition to become the Conservatives’
failing candidate in the mayoral election that is about to be
held, there are better places to do it than here, especially if
he is too frit to take an intervention from the other side. I
would, again, gently say that that suggests that he is not
capable of listening to anyone or engaging in debate. He is very
comfortable with his own voice.
Last July, in West Ham park, Rahaan Ahmed Amin was killed by a
knife wound to his heart. Rahaan was allegedly stabbed with a
foot-long ninja-style sword. He was 16 years old, and his death
was absolutely devastating for his family and for our community.
Those who have who have been charged or arrested in connection
with Rahaan’s death were the same age, or even younger.
What happened to Rahaan was simply appalling, and it comes after
so many other cases of young lives destroyed, families
devastated, and communities broken by fear and distrust and
struggling to heal. That fear and that harm continue. Just last
week we had three separate stabbings in Newham. Last Monday a
14-year-old boy was stabbed on a bus. Last Tuesday one of our
local teaching staff was stabbed in Woodgrange Road. Last
Thursday evening another man was also stabbed in Forest Gate. It
is a testament to our police and to our NHS that no one died.
For many years, this place has debated and passed laws on zombie
knives and machetes, but these laws clearly have not done the
job. My constituents want to know from the Minister why he feels
that the drip-feed of small amendments to the law around knives
has not worked. Why are there loopholes? Why have the Government
not banned so-called ninja swords like the one that allegedly
killed Rahaan? And why are our existing laws so poorly enforced,
especially online?
I understand—most of the Conservative Members have alluded to
this—that knife crime is complex. None of us thinks that all
access to knives can be prevented, and we all understand that
there are many different causes that prompt a child or young
person to pick up a knife, so surely what we need is
comprehensive action to tackle both the availability of knives
and the root causes of knife crime. One cause of many young
people’s deaths in Newham has been involvement with the gangs who
groom and exploit young people, ruining lives for profit. Hon.
Members may remember that I have been banging on about this
agenda for about seven years now, but I do not think we have
actually got a grip on the criminal networks that cause this
massive harm.
In October 2022, I published a report on child criminal
exploitation. I talked to experts across the police, the schools,
social services and charities, and one of our main
recommendations was for the Government to focus on disrupting
those who control the organised criminals who groom our children.
I am obviously delighted that my right hon. Friend the Member for
Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (), the shadow Home Secretary,
has pledged a new criminal offence of child criminal exploitation
and a new strategy to go after the gangs who are profiting from
the exploitation of our children.
I absolutely agree with the hon. Member on this point and I hope
that the Government will do something similar, but does she agree
that this is also about demand? Too many middle-class
professionals probably do not realise that behind their taking of
cocaine or whatever are young people being exposed to crime.
Ms Brown
I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. Some people who buy
cocaine and other drugs think that it is some kind of victimless
crime, but it is not. We are seeing the impacts of those crimes
in the deaths, the grooming and the destruction of so many young
lives.
I am truly disappointed that the Government have not made
progress on a statutory definition of child criminal exploitation
or on making it a dedicated offence. The need for such a change
has been raised repeatedly over the years, including by the
Children’s Commissioner and the Education Committee, so I would
be really grateful if the Minister could offer an update. Will
the Government support and push through the private Member’s Bill
for a new offence put forward by the hon. Member for Mole Valley
( ), or will they match
Labour’s commitment and create a new offence of child criminal
exploitation in Government time? We must all acknowledge that
some of this is about wider social problems such as poverty and
the lack of access to opportunity. These problems are getting
much worse due to the cost of living crisis, because poverty
creates vulnerability to grooming and destroys a young person’s
trust in their future.
In closing, I want to mention the terrible rise in unmet need for
mental health treatment, particularly for young people. The truth
is that our mental health services simply cannot cope with the
level of need, and this is yet another devastating symptom of 14
years of Tory failure, where services have been trashed by a lack
of desperately needed resources. We clearly need a joined-up
approach, so I would be grateful to know whether the Minister is
working across Departments to identify the resources and the
reforms that we desperately need. We need a Government who will
support early intervention across the board, in schools and
A&Es and through community organisations and youth work, but
the record of this Conservative Government is one of trashing
prevention and dithering about getting deadly weapons off our
streets, so it is quite clear what my constituents need: they
need a Labour Government.2.06pm
(Uxbridge and South
Ruislip) (Con)
Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for calling me to speak in this
incredibly timely debate. No one in this House today wants knives
on our streets. My constituents do not want knives on the streets
of Uxbridge and South Ruislip, and I certainly do not want knives
on the streets in the community that I have been elected to
serve. One more day when just a single knife remains on our
streets is a day too long, and that is why the Government’s work
to try and achieve this is welcome: 120,000 knives have been
taken off our streets in the last four years, but there is of
course more to be done. There always is, but I believe that this
provides an impetus for how we can navigate this issue.
Other changes in the law, including allowing courts to hand down
longer custodial sentences and the seizure of weapons in
suspects’ homes will go a long way, as will so-called hotspot
policing and stop and search. These changes cannot come soon
enough, as I know those on the Front Bench recognise, especially
for my constituents and for law-abiding citizens across the
capital.
Earlier in the debate I heard a reference to the Knife Angel. I
would like to pay tribute to Rev. Andy Thompson of St Margaret’s
Church in Uxbridge and other faith leaders across my constituency
who have arranged for the Knife Angel to visit my constituency,
which will benefit youth engagement on many of the points that
have been talked about in the House today.
However, it bears noting that public safety and policing in
London fall within the remit of the Mayor as the capital’s police
and crime commissioner. This is the same Mayor of London who
suddenly U-turned on Uxbridge police station in the run-up to the
by-election, the same Mayor of London who has seen instances of
knife crime grow over 50% since he took office in 2016, the same
Mayor of London under whom the annual knife crime figure has
swelled 22% to just under 14,000 in the most recent total, the
same Mayor of London who is in charge of policing in our city and
who now sees an average of 38 knife crime offences a day, and the
same Mayor of London who will not talk about those figures.
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary noted in a recent letter
to the Mayor that if the figures for London were discounted, the
national trend would show a 1% reduction on last year. That is
small, but it is a sign of progress. In London, however, with
nearly 14,000 instances of knife crime, the Office for National
Statistics suggested that we can see a 5% increase. Enough is
enough. London can no longer be ignored by the current Mayor, who
is also the police and crime commissioner. Crime figures for
London since 2016 have deteriorated against national trends, and
our capital city deserves better.
2.09pm
Mrs (Birmingham, Erdington)
(Lab)
In the past decade, the Tories have cut 21,000 police officers
across the UK and knife crime has gone up by 77%. This
Government’s response has been completely inadequate. The serious
violence strategy is more than five years out of date, the
serious violence taskforce has been disbanded, and everyone knows
from their own communities that too little is being done to
divert young people away from violence and crime.
People in Erdington, Kingstanding and Castle Vale have been left
to face the consequences of Tory knife crime failure, and the B23
postcode in my constituency has the highest rate of knife crime
in the west midlands, with 39 people stabbed last year, yet we
have just a single weapon surrender bin.
If we are serious about ending the blight of knife crime in our
communities, we need the Government to be serious about funding.
In the west midlands, we have lost 2,221 officers and have had
£175 million slashed from our budgets since the last Labour
Government. That is felt most harshly in areas that are already
struggling. Of the 225 left-behind neighbourhoods in the UK, two
are in my constituency, which is the fifth most deprived in the
country.
With the increase in county lines and gangs, young people do not
feel safe walking to and from school—it is as simple as that.
Even when my constituents contact the police, the massive funding
failures and long waiting times in the criminal justice system
mean they very rarely see any justice.
A constituent told me that she had raised the issue of a gang in
her block following a recent stabbing. She told me that, when her
neighbour was threatened with a knife by a group of young people
and she reported it to a police community support officer, she
was advised that the best thing she could do would be to “make
friends” with the gang.
One of the most worrying aspects of knife crime is the large
amount of youth violence across the UK. When a stabbing is
reported in areas like Erdington, it is too often a child being
stabbed by another child. This means that prevention is key, and
Departments must work together to prevent knife crime before it
happens.
Last March, I asked the Secretary of State for Education how many
schools in my constituency use metal detectors to screen pupils,
and how many weapons had been recovered as a result. The
Department could not tell me because it does not record this
data. It is unbelievable that the Department for Education does
not know how many schools across the country use metal detectors,
or even how successful they are. If we are missing this important
preventive information, what else are we missing? It just is not
good enough.
It is not right that people in Erdington, and across the UK, have
to fear violent crime when walking to the shops or when their
children walk to school. The primary objective of any Government
must be to keep people safe, which is why it is so concerning
that, in total, the Prime Minister has announced a ban on zombie
knives 14 times. Since the Government first attempted a ban in
2016, there has been a 24% increase in murders involving a knife
or sharp instrument. Something clearly is not working.
Labour is committed to halving knife crime across the UK in the
next decade, thereby preventing the further serious crime, youth
offending and tragic loss of life that come with it. We would
implement guaranteed sanctions and serious interventions for
young people found carrying knives, we would refer every offender
to a youth offending team, and we would introduce a mandatory,
bespoke action plan to prevent reoffending.
Labour would completely crack down on the availability of knives
on Britain’s streets, including where further laws are required
on online knife sales. It is clearly time for an election,
because communities in my constituency, and young people across
the UK, deserve better.2.15pm
(Peterborough) (Con)
One of the things I most enjoy about this job is when people come
to see me in the Palace of Westminster and I get to show them
where I work, because whatever they think of hon. Members, this
building and this democracy are theirs, and I want to show them
this wonderful place and why it matters.
A few months ago I took people from High Heritage, a charity in
my constituency, around the House of Commons. I showed them the
history of the building, and afterwards we sat down on a bench in
Westminster Hall and had a conversation. The hon. Member for
Batley and Spen (), who is not currently in
her place, was next to me talking to a school from her
constituency. She did a far better job of extolling the virtues
of her role as a Member of Parliament than I did. I listened to
her speech, and then I spoke to the people from High
Heritage.
One of them was Joyce, whose son, a Peterborough lad known as
Alfred, had been stabbed and murdered only months earlier while
he was at university in Northampton. What Joyce said to that
group of people who came to Parliament will never leave me. She
said, “Let’s not shy away from this conversation about knife
crime, because our children and young people need to know the
devastating effects that carrying a knife can have.” I asked her
what she thought the Government needed to do to make the message
clear to young people that carrying a knife is unacceptable, and
to get knives off the street. She said, “Quite honestly, it would
be a tough, zero-tolerance approach, because only tough love is
going to stop young people carrying knives.” That really hit
home, because this is a mother who has lost a son. This is a
mother who is determined that something good comes from perhaps
the most appalling thing a parent could imagine. It will always
remain with me. I remember another conversation in Cathedral
Square, where Joyce was speaking to a number of people about her
terrible experience.
A man called Andrew Bowley has also told me about his experience.
He was stabbed five times in Peterborough in 2017. He lived and
has dedicated a good proportion of his life to talking about his
experience and why knife crime is so appalling. It is still
happening, and it is still happening in Peterborough.
Although it is good news that we have seen arrests, the fact that
they come after such devastating incidents is obviously not good.
Five Peterborough teens who carried out brutal knife attacks in a
city park have been locked up. They have been jailed for a
maximum of 70 years between them, with some of them getting 19
years. I am pleased they received such tough sentences, but not
only have they ruined the lives of the people they attacked, who
will suffer the consequences for many years; they have also
ruined their own lives. They are also going to be in prison for
an extremely long time. Obviously, that is good in the sense that
potentially very violent people are off the street and the public
are safe, but it is tragic to see five more lives ruined.
What else do I want to talk about in this speech? I want to
reflect more on that zero-tolerance, tough approach, but let us
park that for a moment and come back to it. First, I want to pay
some tributes. At the end of last year, Peterborough’s police had
a knife amnesty, which resulted in 170 blades, knives and
offensive weapons being taken off the streets. They can no longer
be used in the way we would not want them to be used, and that is
good. I heard the statistic earlier of 120,000 knives having been
taken off the streets thanks to amnesties. Obviously, that is a
good thing.
Our Criminal Justice Bill is going through Parliament, and it
will create new offences and ensure that we do what we can to
tackle knife crime. Let me give my opinion and, I believe, that
of Joyce. The maximum sentence for carrying a knife is four years
and many repeat offenders are going to prison on a regular basis,
but I want to see the zero-tolerance, tough approach that Joyce
advocated, as there is no excuse for carrying a knife in public.
I know that a lot of young people, unfortunately, get themselves
drawn into difficult circumstances, but the message needs to go
out loud and clear from this place: if you are carrying an
offensive weapon, a knife, a bladed weapon such as we are hearing
about today, like zombie knives—you will go to prison. You will
receive a custodial sentence. Only that zero-tolerance, tough
approach will get that message through to people. The message
needs to get through to families and parents that if they allow
their children to get involved in knife crime, those children
will ruin their lives and go to prison. Prison is probably the
least worst option for them, as they could end up dead—no one
wants to see that happen.
No one becomes a politician or comes into this place because they
do not want to see a solution to an issue such as knife crime. A
cross-party approach should be taken on this. Let me say gently
to some Opposition Members, whom I respect and like enormously—I
know that many of them care deeply about the constituencies and
communities they represent—that as soon as we start bringing
party politics into this, people such as Joyce and the young
people I spoke to, including those at High Heritage, switch off.
I see Opposition Members pointing, and I know that it just not
Members on one side of the House who are guilty of this, but once
we start talking about plans with the word “Labour” inserted in
front of them and saying, “Only this is ever going to resolve any
of the problems, because it is written by some bright spark at
Labour HQ”, people turn off.
That is not what this debate should be all about. It should be
about what we see in our constituencies and what we can do to
solve it. It should be about what we can do as Members of
Parliament, whether we have the word “Conservative”, “Labour” or
“Liberal” next to our name, and as people rooted in our
communities, elected by our local people to listen to our local
people and to stamp out knife crime in our constituencies. I can
stand here and talk about the need for a zero-tolerance approach
and what I think needs to happen, which is that anyone caught
carrying a knife should go to prison, but deep in our communities
we can do what I did, and what I am sure many hon. Members have
done, which is listen to people such as Joyce and the High
Heritage charity, the people affected by knife crime, and be
their advocates. I know that many Members of Parliament on both
sides of the House do that, but it is just a shame that we have
not articulated that more clearly in this debate.2.23pm
(Dulwich and West Norwood)
(Lab)
On 6 January, two people were convicted of the murder of Kalabe
Legesse, a 29-year-old young man who was stabbed on 30 December
2022 in Peckham Rye park, in the neighbouring constituency to
mine, while being robbed of his mobile phone. Kalabe was my
constituent. He was a graduate, the oldest son in his family and
very much loved by everyone who knew him. Kalabe was killed by a
single stab wound to the heart with a large hunting knife, which
was later found at the home of one of his attackers.
On Monday 4 September, I stood at the police line on the Angell
Town estate, in my constituency, following the murder of
21-year-old Ronaldo Scott with a huge knife in broad daylight. On
3 October, I stood at the police line on Coldharbour Lane
following the murder of another young man, whom I cannot name
because of legal proceedings. Again, he had been murdered with a
huge knife. Just last Monday, another stabbing took place. This
time, it was of a 19-year-old and it happened on the Kingswood
estate—thankfully, he survived his injuries. Each time such
horrific events take place, a family has its heart ripped out and
the wider community are devastated and traumatised. Young people
are left terrified to leave their home, and parents are left
feeling fearful each moment that their child is out of their
sight. Knife crime extinguishes lives, but it also snuffs out
hope, aspiration and any sense of a better future.
Knife crime is not inevitable. It is not a normal part of life
that we should accept just happens in some places—it is not
acceptable. It is not unsolvable. It has been allowed to spiral
under this Government because of the political choices they have
made: the political choice to make local authorities bear the
brunt of austerity, with the resources that funded youth work,
early help and support for families, Sure Start centres, play
equipment and community centres stripped away year after year for
more than a decade: the political choice to take £1 billion out
of the budget for the Metropolitan Police Service, decimating
neighbourhood policing, the bedrock of good police-community
relations, and damaging the trust and confidence of communities
in policing; and the political choice to do literally nothing
about the growth in the use of the most dangerous bladed
weapons—zombie knives, machetes and ninja swords—despite
promising to do so since 2016. The Government have repeatedly
said that they would do so “when parliamentary time allows”, as
if they were not the same Government who have control over the
allocation of parliamentary time and can choose to prioritise
whatever issues they like.
This Government have chosen not to prioritise taking the most
dangerous weapons off our streets. The clinical director of
King’s College Hospital’s emergency department has described
these weapons to me as “'weapons of war”, capable of inflicting
horrific injuries, breaking bones, slicing through internal
organs and often leaving victims with no chance of survival and
leaving those who do survive with life-changing consequences. The
ban the Government have now announced is partial and has
significant loopholes.
The appalling losses we have seen in my constituency have led to
some exceptional work to tackle serious violence. I want to pay
particular tribute to Ecosystem Coldharbour, which is funded by
the Mayor of London’s violence reduction unit’s MyEnds programme.
Ecosystem brings together a number of trusted local organisations
that work with young people and families. For the past three
years, they have been delivering a range of positive activities
for young people to help them pursue their ambitions; trauma
support for people affected by serious violence; and grant
funding for a range of smaller community organisations to be able
to deliver targeted interventions.
That includes an extraordinary group of women who go by the name
of Circle of Life Ignite, all of whom have lost a child to knife
crime. They are campaigning, in memory of the children they have
lost, to install bleed-stop kits to provide the emergency
intervention that is needed when a stabbing happens. I have no
words to express the courage of women who are turning their own
tragedies into hope so that other victims do not have to do.
Ecosystem is showing how serious violence can be tackled at a
community level, and that is the approach that the next Labour
government will implement across the country.
Young Futures partnerships will bring community organisations
together with local councils, the police, youth justice services
and others to provide targeted support to young people at risk of
serious violence. We will ensure that mental health support is
available for young people in every community in the country. We
will close the loopholes in the partial, piecemeal ban on large
knives that the Government have announced. We will act where the
Conservatives have failed.
I want to give the last word to a young constituent named Joshua
Eyakware, who wrote the following poem about the work of
Ecosystem:
“See in the ecosystem, we show the young people that there’s a
better way,
Give them the tools to succeed and make a better place,
Just give them the space to grow to learn and to feel free,
And show them peace and happiness are what they can achieve.
So, let’s celebrate our young people, because they’re our
future,
Our next leaders and heroes so let’s make them feel super,
to give them a better life let’s give them love and our time,
and one day the darkness will fade because we taught them how to
shine.”
That work in our communities is having an impact and is genuinely
transformative, but those in my community who work to tackle
serious violence, and those across the country who do the same,
need more leadership and support from central Government. That is
the leadership that a Labour Government will provide. We need a
general election so that it can be delivered.
2.30pm
(Luton South) (Lab)
This Government are letting our young people and communities down
when it comes to tackling the devastating impact of knife crime.
Under the Tories, knife crime has gone up by more than 77% since
2015, and sadly we have seen the tragic consequences in towns
such as Luton.
I rise to speak in support of Labour’s motion. I press the
Government to strengthen their legislation and ban not only
zombie-style knives and machetes, but ninja swords and other
dangerous knives, which would remain legal under their current
plans. But if we are to reduce the needless loss of young lives,
we must do more than legislate and enforce our way through. Of
course we must ensure that carrying knives and knife crime have
significant consequences, but we also need support in place to
stop our young people feeling that they need to carry knives and
being drawn into knife crime. I support Labour’s knife crime plan
to guarantee sanctions and serious interventions for young people
found carrying knives, and to provide tough new guidance so that
serious penalties, such as curfews and tagging, are used where
appropriate.
I will focus on Labour’s Young Futures early intervention
programme: a targeted programme in every area to identify young
people most at risk of knife crime; a plan that will bring
together services at a local level, to better co-ordinate the
delivery of preventative measures; a national network of youth
hubs to deliver joined-up support for young people; a plan for
youth mental health, with support in every school and open-access
hubs in every community, with action to tackle mental health
waiting lists too; and a programme that will see youth workers in
A&E units, custody centres and our communities, with mentors
in pupil referral units to better target and support young people
at risk. The Young Futures programme will work alongside a new
serious organised crime strategy to go after the gangs that are
making millions from the exploitation of children and young
people in our communities.
In Luton, sadly we have seen too many young people and children
killed by other young people and children. Lives have been lost
and changed forever for all involved, especially the families who
are left behind. I have listened to families whose children have
been killed and to our Luton community, who do not want to see
yet another young life lost in our town. It is heartbreaking
because so much loss could have been prevented, but for the
political decisions of this Conservative Government that have
destroyed the youth services that carry out vital preventative
work, diminished the visible presence and intelligence of
neighbourhood policing that helps our communities feel safe, and
failed to deal with the criminal gangs that exploit and draw our
young people into knife crime.
Despite this sorry picture of 14 years of Conservative Government
stripping back our public services and making huge cuts to
councils in the name of austerity, we have some hope through
excellent partnership working at a local level, such as the Luton
Youth Partnership and the multi-agency support hub work, which is
a systemic approach developed over a number of years and led by
Dave Collins at Luton Council. I pay tribute to the work that he
and so many others involved in that collaborative approach carry
out.
A collaborative approach is at the heart of Labour’s Young
Futures programme, with a cross-Government initiative to oversee
it, bringing together all the relevant Departments to set
objectives, oversee delivery and assess outcomes. Importantly,
Labour will work with local councils to establish new Young
Futures partnerships. They will build on existing successes, such
as in Luton, by co-ordinating and better integrating existing
services for teenagers and young people in their areas; by
involving council youth services, including youth offending
services, social services and community safety officers; and by
using the police, mental health services, schools, and voluntary
and community organisations to map the provision of services,
establish data and systems to identify children and young people
at risk of exploitation and crime, and to establish appropriate
referral and intervention.
I emphasise the importance of the excellent work done by our
voluntary and community organisations in Luton, many of which
have had to pick up the pieces after Conservative cuts to our
local council and health services. They are working together to
support our young people and communities, be they from our local
youth groups such as the scouts and guides, mentorship by groups
such as Unleashing Potential, as well as grassroots community
activists such as the excellent Wingman Mentors, which I recently
met with my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (). That group told us about its
campaign to get more bleed kits in community locations,
recognising that if we are not able to fully prevent stabbings,
we can try to ensure that lives are saved by the early use of
bleed kits by local people on the scene before paramedics
arrive.
To close, we know that knife crime destroys lives, devastates
families, and creates fear and trauma in our communities. Our
young people deserve better. A Labour Government will give young
people their future back, but we need a general election to do
so.
2.36pm
(Coventry South) (Lab)
Madam Deputy Speaker:
“I just want it to stop. I just don’t want it to be happening
here…where there are little kids playing in the park.”
That is how one Coventry teen described how he felt growing up in
the shadow of knife crime, and he is far from alone. In the
national media, knife crime is often talked about as if it is
just a London thing, but in truth it touches young people across
the country. One in six children between the ages of 13 and 17
reported being a victim of violence last year, and around half
say that violence, or the fear of violence, affects their
day-to-day lives.
Things are particularly bad in the west midlands. According to
data from last year, the region had the highest rate of knife
crime anywhere in the country, with 178 offences per 100,000
people. That is five times higher than north Yorkshire, which
ranked bottom. Nationally, knife crime is up a shocking 77% since
2015. While this House is unanimous in recognising the problem,
too often politicians look for quick fixes or put appearing
“tough” above providing real answers.
What is striking about knife crime is that we know what drives it
and what reduces it—and that is not easy, Daily
Mailheadline-grabbing answers. It is not a matter of locking up
more kids for longer while ignoring the drivers of the real
problem, as the actor Idris Elba has warned. I pay tribute to him
for his work campaigning on the issue. Since custodial sentences
for young people are associated with high levels of reoffending,
proposals such as mandatory prison sentences for first-time knife
possession are likely to draw young people further into
criminality, while failing to tackle the causes of why young
people carry knives in the first place. Part of the answer is
closing loopholes in the ban on the sale of dangerous weapons,
but that is not the whole story.
As those familiar with the issue know too well, Britain has a
clear example of how to tackle knife crime. Two decades ago,
Glasgow was known as one of the murder capitals of Europe, with
one of the highest rates of homicides in the global north. Rather
than a simple law and order response, a public health approach
was taken that sought to diagnose and prevent violence, rather
than just reacting after the event. That involved increasing
support for young people at risk of getting swept up in violence.
After 10 years, the number of hospital admissions from knife
attacks had fallen by 62%. Again, that might not make Daily Mail
headlines, but the evidence is there.
If young people at risk are offered talking therapy,
extracurricular activities, such as sports programmes, or
enrolled in mentoring programmes, they are less likely to get
caught up in knife crime.
I hear what the hon. Lady says about providing services and
alternatives for young people, but does she also believe in a
serious deterrent and in enforcement? Does she agree that if a
person is caught carrying a knife or other offensive weapon, a
custodial sentence is the most appropriate punishment?
I thank the hon. Member for his question. As I mentioned in my
speech, we in this Chamber are often quick to resort to law and
order and custodial sentences, but that is not the whole
response, because it does not fix the problem. As I will mention,
there is an issue around poverty and deprivation. We are not
giving young people hope and we are not giving them
opportunities, but people do not want to talk about that, because
it involves a long-term strategy and investment. What we have
seen over the past 14 years is the complete opposite of that. We
have seen youth centres close down and schools stretched beyond
measure when it comes to coping with the pressures that young
people experience. So yes, it is not the only response, and it is
not what we should always fall back on.
In Coventry, we have seen a significant fall in youth crime after
an approach similar to that seen in Glasgow was adopted. Launched
in May 2023, the “community initiative to reduce violence”
programme has sought to identify young people at risk and offer
them tailored support to help develop positive routes away from
violence—from assisting with housing, health and debt to access
to education. After six months, the programme has been credited
with helping to cut knife crimes in the city by almost half. Of
course, there is more work to be done. Just last weekend, two
young people were stabbed in separate incidents in the city—my
thoughts go out to them and their families. The evidence clearly
shows that providing support for young people at risk, rather
than just abandoning them, is how we address this issue at a
deeper level.
Although we must roll out these violence reduction approaches
across the country—I am pleased that Labour’s Young Future
programme looks set to do that—we know that knife crime has a
deeper structural cause as well. There is a wealth of evidence
showing that these social ills are correlated with deprivation
and inequality, with countries that have higher levels of
inequality and poverty being more likely to have higher rates of
violent crime. That is not surprising. When young people are
abandoned, when their job opportunities disappear, and when their
futures look bleak, it is little wonder that they are angry and
feel hopeless.
The answer to kids being scared of knife crime in Coventry is not
to lock up more young people for longer. The answer is not just
to ban more dangerous weapons, however needed that is. The
fundamental answer is through offering young people a route away
from these problems, by giving them the support that they need to
get on and giving them hope in their future, and that is what the
next Labour Government must do.
2.42pm
(Luton North) (Lab)
It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry
South () and to be the last
Back-Bench contributor to this debate, which on the whole—with
one exception—has been thoughtful, insightful, heartfelt and
really sensitive.
I rise to speak today on behalf of my constituents in Luton
North, who I know care a great deal about knife crime—when I say
“care”, I mean that they are worried and scared about knife
crime. There is no doubt that knife crime has become a national
crisis, increasing by 77% since 2015. It is a scourge on our
society and it has tragic and often fatal consequences. Knife
crime not only takes lives, but devastates families, destroys
futures and ambitions, and has a detrimental ripple effect on all
our communities. Unfortunately, we know the impact of this all
too well in Luton, as my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South
() has already
highlighted.
In September 2023 alone, in just one month, there were five
stabbings in our town, one of which tragically led to my
constituent, 16-year-old Ashraf Habimana, losing his life. Two
loving parents lost their son, Ashraf’s teachers and friends lost
his bright and energetic personality, and our community has lost
another young person under appallingly violent and, importantly,
avoidable circumstances. His family and friends now have to
grieve the loss of Ashraf and wait hopefully to see justice
served, but the lasting trauma of this event will remain with
them and our community forever.
Two years ago, another 16-year-old boy, Humza Hussain, was
stabbed to death outside school—what another tragic loss, what
another waste of life, what another future stolen. Our young
people are most at risk when it comes to knife crime. In the year
ending September 2022, there were more than 46,000 recorded
offences involving a knife or sharp instrument in England and
Wales, with young men and boys most likely to be both the
perpetrators and victims of this crime.
I recently had the honour of meeting staff from Bedfordshire’s
brilliant violence and exploitation reduction unit with my hon.
Friend the Member for Luton South to find out more about their
“Just Drop It” knife campaign. At its heart is the voice and
experience of a mum, Roseann, who tragically lost her young son,
Azaan “AJ” Kaleem, in 2018. Too often nothing is done when there
are signs that a young person is getting into trouble, being
groomed by gangs, or falling into danger online. To me, the
important part of today’s debate is about the child exploitation
side of it—the side of it on which this Government have lagged
behind. I do not care whether it has “Labour” or “Conservative”
on the front of it. Parents, families and communities just want
it done. To me, the people who prey on innocent young lives,
regardless of their intentions—whether it is crime, sexual
exploitation or drugs—are all the same and we should treat them
exactly like that.
When teenagers say that they do not feel safe, or that they are
struggling themselves with trauma or abuse, no one listens and no
help is provided. That is what we are up against. The “Just Drop
It” strategy aims to tackle these issues, providing accessible
opportunities for young people to help them achieve their
potential, ensuring that they feel supported and safe, and
helping them to realise that there is an alternative to a life of
knife crime and violence. All of these young boys and men leave
families mourning the loss of life and the loss of a future that
should have been bright and, importantly, safe.
The brilliant organisation, Boxing Saves Lives, works with
hundreds of young people in Luton. It was set up and is now run
by the inspirational JP, who often highlights the work that
rightly goes on tackling violence against women and girls, and
asks what about violence against boys and men. I could not agree
with him more. Far too many young boys are exposed to violence
and fear from a very young age. What is the Minister doing to
tackle that? If the Government are taking any action, why is it
not working?
If these deaths were as a result of a physical illness killing
our young people, teams of doctors and researchers would be
working day and night to find a cure. But we already know the
cure; we know the lessons that need to be learned. The cure is
all the things that have been stripped from our communities over
the past 14 years: decent community policing; youth centres;
decent schools; Sure Start centres; decent housing; mental health
support; and tackling poverty. As my hon. Friend the Member for
Luton South says, shockingly, there are more food banks than
police stations.
The results of knife crime have no political stripe, but how we
have got here does. These were all political choices that led to
the perfect storm of knife crime that we see in our society
today. When we held community meetings after young Ashraf’s
death, hundreds of people came and they said, “Here we are
again”. Sadly, they were right. Sadly, until all the things that
we know work are put in place, we will be here yet again. When
the Minister stands at the Dispatch Box, I ask him please not to
give us more warm words that lead to cold comfort for those
families, as I know that it is only a matter of time before we
are consoling yet another mother in Luton. Families are losing
their children, children are losing their friends and whole parts
of the country are losing their future. That situation should
shame a Government of any colour, so I ask the Minister again
please not to get up at that Dispatch Box and tell us that all is
rosy, because it is not.
I am grateful for the fact that, all the while this Tory
Government fail our communities, we have people in Luton such as
Haleema Ali, who is fundraising for critical bleed kits in our
town, and the Wingman Mentors, a not-for-profit organisation that
works with vulnerable young people who are on the cusp of getting
involved with crime, carrying knives, and serious violence. It
has launched a campaign to install critical bleed kits in
strategic locations across our town. The kits contain essential
supplies to control severe bleeding effectively and can be used
in the event of an emergency incident, whether a road traffic
incident, a dog attack or a knife crime. I would be grateful to
hear whether the Minister will be supporting that campaign. The
organisation’s founders, Si and Michelle, believe that those kits
are just as vital and lifesaving as defibrillators. They are also
delivering training for people to familiarise themselves with
bleed kits and their practical use, to give those who may be on
the scene as zero responders the necessary skills possibly to
save a life. I pay tribute to the vital work that Wingman Mentors
and others are doing, but they should not have to rely on
donations and funding from local businesses to make the
installation of bleed kits a reality.
Yes, we have heard that knife crime is a cross-party problem and
that we have to work across organisations and across parties—and
I am happy to do so. However, the Government in their response to
this issue have been wholly inadequate. The serious violence
strategy is more than five years out of date. The serious
violence taskforce was disbanded and everyone knows from their
own communities that too little is being done to support young
people to move away from violence and crime. Why is it that we
have to continue with this farce of police funding in which
Bedfordshire Police is classified as a rural police force? We
have Luton, Dunstable and Bedford all within that area. Will the
Minister please dare to comment on that and say when the farce of
rural funding for Bedfordshire Police will end?
Much more needs to be done and we need a proper plan with
meaningful funding behind it to make these changes. I am
therefore proud to support Labour’s commitment to tackling this
issue at its source, establishing a new Young Futures programme
to stop young people being drawn into crime, implementing a total
crackdown on the availability of knives on our streets and
imposing tougher sentences for perpetrators. Knife crime and
violence have no place in our society. We all have a
responsibility to tackle the problem within our communities, but
tackling knife crime no longer just means learning lessons; it
means acting on them so that we are not standing here again
speaking of our constituents, of loved ones tragically lost to
knife crime and of those left behind who are traumatised and
changed forever.
2.51pm
(Enfield North) (Lab)
I start by expressing my thanks to hon. Members across the House
for their powerful contributions this afternoon. They include my
hon. Friends the Members for Bristol South (), for Batley and Spen (), for West Ham (Ms Brown)
and for Birmingham, Erdington (Mrs Hamilton), the hon. Member for
Peterborough (), my hon. Friends the Members
for Dulwich and West Norwood (), for Luton South (), for Coventry South
() and for Luton North (), the hon. Members for Cities of
London and Westminster () and for Uxbridge and South
Ruislip (), and the rest. They all
spoke powerfully about the tragedies that knife crime causes for
victims and families.
Knife attacks have become far too deadly and frequent, especially
for young people, as we have heard in this debate. They ruin
lives, families and communities, and I speak for the whole House
when I say they must be stopped. Zombie-style weapons and ninja
swords must be banned, but they are currently far too accessible.
A quick Google search not only brings up heartbreaking stories of
the weapons being used, but shows where people can easily buy
them. They are readily available on marketplaces for under £40.
That cannot go on. We should not have to be in the Chamber today
talking about banning zombie knives. If the Government’s ban in
2016 had worked and had gone far enough, more lives could have
been saved. We must act now and introduce criminal sanctions for
online marketplaces.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen and other
hon. Members for mentioning the alarmingly high levels of knife
crime across our country. I remind the hon. Member for Old Bexley
and Sidcup (Mr French) that knife crime is up 77% since 2015
across the country, not just in one city. Yet less than half of
knife possession offences led to a formal sanction last year.
That is law and order in Tory Britain in 2024.
It is young men who are most likely to be both the offenders and
the victims of knife crime—young men who have their whole lives
ahead of them, including the 17-year-old boy who was stabbed with
a zombie knife in my Enfield North constituency only two weeks
ago, Kalabe and Ronaldo in Dulwich and West Norwood, Alfred in
Peterborough, Robert and Bradley in Batley and Spen, Ashraf in
Luton North, Rahaan in West Ham, 39 people in Birmingham,
Erdington and hundreds of young people whose names we did not
know today. Each loss shocks a family and a community, but too
little is being done to divert young people away from violence
and crime.
Our young people deserve better. They are not being dealt a fair
hand. That is not just the case in Enfield or in Birmingham; it
is happening up and down the country and it demands instant
action. Those weapons have no place in the hands of anybody on
our streets, never mind children in parks and playgrounds. What
have the Government been waiting for—a celebrity to step in so
that they have to act? That is what it feels like for many across
the country.
We have had 17 press releases from the Government regarding
zombie and zombie-style knives since 2015, as we have heard, yet
a full ban is still not in place. What are the Government waiting
for? As eloquently put by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham,
the
“drip-feed of small amendments to the law”
has not worked. For many, it feels as though there is no end in
sight. I am relieved that a new ban is coming, but we would not
be here today if the first press release had actually meant
something—if the Government’s ban in 2016 had gone far enough and
actually worked and the Tories had delivered on their promise to
keep our communities safe. Sadly, this is a tired, hopeless
Government, unable to deliver for families across our
country.
Let us be clear: this ban needs to go further. It needs to cover
ninja swords and other dangerous swords. However, the Minister
for Crime, Policing and Fire said that if there were other
things—referring to weapons or blades—that needed to be brought
into scope, the Government can do that much more quickly. My
question is this: why wait, if they can ban those weapons now?
Why wait for the criminals to shift to other weapons of choice?
There is no reason we should let criminals win at the expense of
grieving families. As we have heard in the debate, the
consequences of not closing those loopholes are devastating. That
is why we are calling for the Government’s ban to go further now.
With each day that passes, young people in particular are at risk
of having their futures taken away from them, and we can prevent
that.
I stress that ninja swords should not be accessible at a click of
a button. Ronan Kanda was murdered with a 22-inch ninja sword.
The weapon was ordered online using someone else’s identification
and collected without any identification. How can it be so easy
to commit a crime of that kind? I think Members across the House
can agree that there are very few legitimate reasons to own and
carry a 22-inch sword on the streets of this country—and that is
exactly why we are debating this motion. It has become far too
easy to own and to use those weapons on our streets, with far too
few consequences for doing so. That is the culture that has been
allowed to thrive across Britain under this Government, and it
must stop. Labour will close the loophole allowing marketplaces
to escape liability for dangerous knife sales online.
May I ask the hon. Lady the same question I asked the hon. Member
for Coventry South ()? Does she agree that
someone caught in possession of a knife or bladed weapon such as
she describes should go to prison?
Currently, as I have said, in more than 50% of cases where young
people are caught with a bladed weapon, nothing is being done and
they have been allowed to go off. The hon. Gentleman should
question Ministers about that—[Interruption.] I will
continue.
As I touched on earlier, too little is being done to give young
people the best start in life. Too often, when teenagers say they
do not feel safe or that they are struggling with trauma, abuse
or mental health issues, no one listens and no help is provided.
I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South said
so eloquently about how community services have just disappeared.
The Government have hollowed out our youth services, mental
health services and policing teams, among others. In fact, over
the past 14 years, there has been no serious cross-Government
effort to stop young people being drawn into crime. Who pays the
price? Young people, victims, their families and communities all
over the country, including in my Enfield North constituency.
They cannot wait any longer.
We need early intervention to stop young people being drawn into
crime on our streets in the first place. That is what Labour will
do through our Young Futures programme. We will invest in young
people and bring together a national network of youth hubs in our
communities, with joined-up multi-agency targeted work. We will
put youth workers in A&E units and mental health workers in
schools to ensure that they are on hand to help our young people
when it matters most, giving them the best possible start in
life. That will support our aim of halving serious violence,
including knife crime, and youth violence within a decade. We
will step in where the Government have failed. Communities across
the country are behind Labour’s plan, so why aren’t the
Government? We have done it in government before, and we can do
it again.
The crisis in knife crime needs to be dealt with urgently and
cannot be ignored any longer. The Government need to get a grip
and put an end to the suffering. If their ban had been
successful, we would not be debating the issue today. We need the
ban on zombie-style knives to go much further; we need to
introduce a criminal sanction for websites that indirectly sell
illegal weapons online; and, in the long term, we need to support
our young people to prevent them from being dragged into crime in
the first place. I think the whole House agrees that our young
people deserve better. We must give them the best possible start
in life and keep them safe. That is why I urge all Members from
across the House to do the right thing and vote for Labour’s
motion to get the weapons off our streets.
3.01pm
The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire ()
I am grateful to have the opportunity to talk about this
important topic. I thank Members on both sides who have
contributed thoughtfully to this afternoon’s debate, which is of
huge importance to our constituents up and down the country.
Too many families have been touched by the tragedy of knife crime
and the unspeakable agony of losing a loved one. In fact, by
coincidence—it was arranged before this debate was scheduled—I
met yesterday with a few families from across London who have
lost sons, brothers and, in one case, a daughter to knife crime.
That group of families included the immediate family and cousins
of Elianne Andam, a 15-year-old girl from Croydon—the borough
that I represent in Parliament—who was tragically murdered on
Wednesday 27 September last year. Her alleged assailant is now in
custody. I remember attending Elianne’s funeral in Croydon a few
weeks later. The outpouring of grief from the whole community,
particularly from her parents, Michael and Dorcas, and her little
brother, Kobi, moved everybody who attended on that Saturday
morning a couple of months ago—I think more than 1,000 people
were in attendance.
Nothing illustrated more powerfully how important this topic is
than seeing those family members and that whole community united
in grief at the loss of Elianne. Of course, like the Andam
family, too many families up and down the country, in London and
elsewhere, have suffered tragedy in that way. It is up to all of
us in public life—whether here in Parliament, in city government,
police and crime commissioners, in local councils and so on—to do
everything we possibly can to deal with this issue. It is in that
spirit that many Members have approached the debate.
We have heard quite a lot about figures. Everyone knows that we
need to do more, but any informed debate has to start with a
proper understanding of what the figures are. A number of
Opposition Members have quoted the figure of knife crime being up
77% since 2015. That is a police recorded crime figure. A number
of other figures are available. The Office for National
Statistics says:
“police recorded crime does not tend to be a good indicator of
general trends in crime”
for higher-volume offences—not my words, but those of the ONS.
Let me explain why: police recorded crime depends on the
propensity of the public to report it and on how good a job the
police do at recording it when it is reported.
Will the Minister give way?
I will just make the point about statistics and then I will give
way. Over the last few years—largely driven by His Majesty’s
Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services and
its crime data integrity initiatives—the police have got a lot
better at always recording offences. On what is the more reliable
measure, the ONS says:
“The Crime Survey of England and Wales remains the best estimate
of long-term trends in crimes against the…population”—
for offences included in that survey.
The crime survey, which is, according to the Office for National
Statistics, the
“best estimate of long-term trends”,
shows a reduction of 51% in violent crimes—I am talking
specifically about violent crimes, not all crimes—since March
2010. The figure stood at 1.841 million in the year ending March
2010. In the year ending September 2023—the most recent period
for which data is available—it had gone down by about 1 million
offences, or by 51%, to 894,000 offences. However, there are
other measures—
rose—
I will give way to the shadow Home Secretary and then to the hon.
Member for Luton North ().
The ONS states:
“Police recorded crime provides a better measure than the Crime
Survey for England and Wales of higher-harm but less common types
of violence, such as those involving a knife or sharp instrument
(knife-enabled crime).”
Does the Minister agree? Does he acknowledge that knife crime has
gone up 77% since 2015 and that it is a deep, deep tragedy for
our country?
I would agree that for lower-volume crime, police recorded crime
does provide an accurate measure. Of course, the principal
example of that is homicide, which is relevant here. I have the
homicide figures for the shadow Home Secretary since she asked
about police recorded crime for lower-volume serious offences. In
the year ending March 2010—the last year that she was in
government—there were 620 homicides. In the 12 months ending
September 2023—the most recent period for which data is
available—those homicide figures had declined from 620 when she
was in government to 591 in the most recent period. Each of those
homicides is a tragedy and one homicide too many, but the number
has gone down in that period, even though the population has
grown significantly.
Several hon. Members rose—
I did promise to give way to the hon. Member for Luton North, so
I will do so.
I thank the Minister for being generous with his time. On police
recorded crime, the 77% figure is surely the bare minimum given
that the level of under-reporting, particularly among young
people, is extremely high. Does he agree that the Government’s
claim that knife crime has somehow gone down will sit like a
bucket of cold sick with communities such as mine, which know
that the scourge of knife crime is rife under the Tory
Government?
No one is suggesting that knife crime is not a problem that needs
dealing with. I am just giving the hon. Lady and the House the
facts. Using the most accurate measure of higher-volume crimes
according to the Office for National Statistics, such crime has
come down 51% since 2010, with homicide down as well.
Let me take another measure of serious crime: hospital admissions
following a stabbing injury. Quite frankly, if anyone—
Will the Minister give way?
If I may, I will finish this point and then move on, as I have
more to talk about beyond the statistics.
If someone is stabbed, they will go to hospital, so one of the
measures we look at in the Home Office is the number of hospital
admissions with an injury caused by a bladed article—that is to
say, a knife. Since 2019, those hospital admissions have gone
down by 21%. I do not mention those figures out of complacency,
or to score some political point; I mention those figures, which
are endorsed by the ONS, to make sure that the House has an
accurate and sober assessment.
Will the Minister give way?
I do want to move on. Having said all that, I want to talk about
prevention, the law and enforcement. Let me start with
prevention.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker ( )
Order. It is obvious that the Minister is not taking an
intervention at this point.
I have given way several times on the point about figures, and
have explained in detail where the figures come from.
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to give the
Minister the opportunity to make sure he is not providing
inaccurate information to the House. He has implied that the ONS
believes that the crime survey, rather than the police recorded
crime statistics—[Interruption.] No, this is about factual
information from the ONS.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. Front Benchers must not speak during a point of order.
There is a factual point about what the ONS believes is the most
accurate measure to use for knife crime. I have quoted at the
Minister the ONS’s words about the police recorded crime
statistics being the most accurate measure for knife crime, and
the Minister has tried to deny that that is the case. I want to
give him the opportunity to give accurate information to the
House, and to be clear that the police recorded statistics—which
show that knife crime has gone up over the past eight years—are
the ones that the ONS recommends.
Hon. Members
That is not a point of order.
Madam Deputy Speaker
It is very kind of everyone to tell me how to do what I am in the
process of doing. The right hon. Lady knows that what she has
just said is a point of debate, not a point of order for the
Chair. If she is asking me to answer a point of order, my answer
to her is that it is not a point of order, and it is not for me
to adjudicate from the Chair how any statistics should be
interpreted. The right hon. Lady knows that the Minister was not
taking an intervention from her. He has the floor. It is up to
him, and she should not use a point of order to make a point of
debate. However, she has now done so, and I am sure the Minister
will answer.
Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for dealing with that point of
debate disguised as a point of order. I will reiterate what I
have said, and quote again what the Office for National
Statistics said:
“Police recorded crime does not tend to be a good indicator of
general trends in crime”
for higher-volume crime. It has also said that the crime survey
of England and Wales
“remains the best estimate of long-term trends”
in crimes against the household. According to the crime survey,
violent crime is down by 51% since 2010. When we look at one of
those lower-volume crimes for which the ONS says that police
recorded crime is more appropriate—I obviously accept what the
ONS says—homicides have gone down from 620 to 591, which is
buttressed by the 21% reduction in hospital admissions since
2019. [Interruption.] I will now move on to address the question
of prevention.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Before the Minister moves on, the Back Benchers are being really
quite well behaved—thank you. Both sets of Front Benchers are
shouting at each other across the Table while the Minister is on
his feet. Now, stop it!
I have had worse, Madam Deputy Speaker, but thank you for your
assistance. As always, it is gratefully received.
Members on both sides of the House have rightly raised the issue
of prevention. Of course, we want to prevent young people from
getting on to a path that leads to committing acts of violence.
We want to intervene early, taking someone who may be as young as
12 and putting them on a path where they do not become a 16 or
17-year-old perpetrator. As Members can imagine, that was a topic
of discussion at the meeting I had yesterday, which was attended
by the London violence reduction unit. In the current year, we
are funding violence reduction units in the 20 police force areas
most affected, to the tune of £55 million. That funds
interventions such as mentoring schemes, apprenticeships, work
experience and even cognitive behavioural therapy—there is a
really good evidence base for the fact that that intervention can
steer a young person who is at risk of heading down the wrong
path in a better direction.
We are also working with the Youth Endowment Fund, and have
invested £200 million in it. It is spending that money partly on
directly commissioning interventions that help young people at
risk of getting into gangs or into a life of violence, but it
also does research into what works best. It has a very good
evidence base for what interventions are really effective—it has
a top three. There are also some interventions that, on a
common-sense basis, we would think will be effective, but the
evidence base says are actually not effective. We are trying to
work with VRUs to make sure that the work they fund is more
oriented towards those effective interventions.
I was also struck at yesterday’s meeting by the impact that
grassroots organisations can have. Those organisations are often
run by people who have experience themselves: either they have
been victims of knife crime, or one of their family members has
tragically been killed or seriously injured. Working with those
grassroots organisations can have a very positive impact, and I
would like to do more to encourage it.
A Member—it may have been an Opposition Member—made a point about
identifying youngsters who are at risk of getting on to the wrong
track and intervening at an individual level. That is something I
plan to do more on with local authorities. I am aware of a case
in which a 12-year-old was involved in what we might call
low-level criminality, but then went on to commit more serious
offences. That is an example of where we need to identify
individuals and work with local authorities, children’s services
and others—including mental health services, if necessary—to
intervene and make sure an at-risk 12-year-old does not become a
17-year-old perpetrator.
Drug treatment is an associated issue. Too much violence is
associated with drugs: either acquisitive crime to fund a drug
habit, or violence associated with drug supply. We are investing
£780 million over three years in increasing drug treatment
capacity, which has to be the right thing to do, especially for
opioids, which are associated with the worst offending
behaviour.
Finally on prevention, I completely endorse what was said by the
hon. Member for Luton North: bleed kits are vital, and I want to
work with local authorities and local police forces to make sure
more are available, including tourniquets, which can reduce the
number of people who suffer either a very serious injury or a
fatality if there is a tragic incident. Some of those things are
already under way; others are areas in which we can do more.
I will now turn to the law, which we have discussed quite a lot
this afternoon. In relation to sentencing, about which my hon.
Friend the Member for Peterborough () rightly made some points,
carrying any knife, regardless of whether it is banned—even a
kitchen knife—in a public place without good reason is a criminal
offence and currently carries a sentence of up to four years, and
it is right that it does. Through the Police, Crime, Sentencing
and Courts Act 2022, we have recently tightened up the
legislation to say that if a person gets caught carrying a knife
a second time, there is a strong presumption, which will apply in
all but exceptional circumstances, that a six-month minimum jail
sentence will be imposed. Those powers are in place.
We are also legislating through the Criminal Justice Bill, which
will have its Report stage in the House in a few weeks’ time, to
ensure that where someone supplies a knife to an under-18—which,
as we have discussed, is a very serious matter—they will receive
a higher sentence of two years. We are also creating a new
offence that will be considered more serious: that of possessing
a knife in a public place with intent to cause injury. Sometimes,
people have advertised their intent on social media, and when
they have done so, that should be treated more seriously.
Earlier in the debate, I asked the Minister’s colleague, my hon.
and learned Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole
(), a question, which he
suggested the Minister might answer. I do not want to corner him,
but what is the current direction of travel on the thinking in
relation to the criminal sanction proposed in the Opposition
motion:
“criminal liability for senior management of websites which
indirectly sell illegal knives online”?
I thank my right hon. Friend for his very good question, and I
will come on to that matter now. We want to tighten up the sale
of knives online. The principal vehicle for that is not so much
the Criminal Justice Bill, although we are increasing the
criminal sanction for supplying a knife to an under-18 to up to
two years in prison, as the Online Safety Act 2023, which was
given Royal Assent in October and will be commenced in stages as
Ofcom drafts its codes of practice. The Online Safety Act puts a
duty on social media firms—including, critically, online
marketplaces—to proactively prevent priority criminal offences
from happening.
For a time I was the Bill Minister for the Online Safety Bill, as
it then was, and I think I am correct in recalling that the
priority criminal offences are set out in schedule 7 to that Act.
However, I am speaking from memory, so if the shadow Home
Secretary wants to make a point of order and correct me, she is
very welcome to do so. I think it is schedule 7, but she is
unusually quiet. One of those priority offences is concerned with
the supply of knives, so social media firms and online
marketplaces will have a duty to proactively take steps to
prevent the sale of two types of knives that are illegal and to
prevent the sale of knives in general to under-18s.
To answer the question about criminal liability, Members will
know, or should know, that the Online Safety Act includes
provisions that create personal criminal liability for executives
of large social media firms in a number of circumstances. In
fact, for precisely the reasons my right hon. Friend mentioned
and that the Opposition probably had in mind when they drafted
today’s motion, those measures were strengthened as the Online
Safety Bill passed through the House. The Online Safety Act, as
it is now, is the mechanism through which those points, including
personal criminal liability, are being addressed.
By the way, the measures in the Criminal Justice Bill include
giving the police the power to seize lawfully held knives that
are legal, such as kitchen knives, if the police reasonably
suspect that they are going to be used for criminal purposes. If
a drug dealer has 10 of these knives, which might technically be
legal, but has them at their home address, the police can seize
those lawful knives where there is a suspicion that they are
going be used for criminal purposes. That is in the Criminal
Justice Bill.
We are also acting via a statutory instrument laid a week or two
ago, which has been referred to, to ban even more zombie-style
knives and machetes. We set out in that statutory instrument the
characteristics that those knives must have—over 8 inches in
length, for example, or certain features concerning serration and
sharp edges. The reason why that will not take effect until
September is that we need to allow people who currently hold
knives that will become illegal the chance to surrender them.
That scheme will run over the summer, and the ban will take
effect in September.
I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for
Southend West (), who has been campaigning on
this topic for some time. She convened a knife crime summit last
year with a number of police and crime commissioners, including
Essex’s excellent police and crime commissioner, . Their campaigning—hers and
Roger Hirst’s—led to this measure coming forward. I hope it is
clear from those comments that the law has been tightened already
and is in the process of being tightened even further.
The hon. Member for West Ham (Ms Brown) asked a good question
about children being coerced or manipulated into committing
offences, and she asked in particular about a private Member’s
Bill tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley ( ). This is something that we
have studied carefully and taken advice on, as she would expect.
It is already an offence, in relation to both children and
adults, to encourage, control or cause them to undertake criminal
activity. Sections 44 to 46 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 do what
she is rightly asking for, and there are also provisions in the
Modern Slavery Act 2015. I think they are in section 45, but I am
again speaking from memory. Those provisions in the Serious Crime
Act are very wide-ranging—in fact, more wide-ranging than those
in the Modern Slavery Act—and they apply to children and to
adults, and I would like to see the police using those powers a
great deal more.
I say very gently to the right hon. Gentleman, and I am genuinely
grateful to him for listening to what I asked for and for
responding, that the experts in the field believe those
provisions do not do what they need to. Would he allow me to
write to him and have a discussion so that we can take this
matter forward?
Yes, I am very willing to work with the hon. Lady and to look at
detailed representations. I have been advised that those sections
are quite broad-ranging. I have read them myself and—on the face
of it, and reading them as a Member of Parliament would read any
bit of legislation—they do strike me as very wide-ranging in
their scope. However, I am of course happy to listen to
particular representations and to discuss them. If those sections
of the Serious Crime Act and the Modern Slavery Act contain
lacunae, I would be willing to discuss that. I am looking forward
to hearing from the hon. Lady on that topic and working with her
if there are gaps to be filled.
We have talked about prevention and about the law needing to be
strong enough, and we must come on to enforcement because we must
protect our fellow citizens from criminal activity, knife crime
in particular. Clearly, it is important to make sure that the
police have the relevant resources. An Opposition Member referred
to police numbers, and in March last year we achieved a headcount
of 149,566 police officers—more than at any time in history. In
fact, it is about 3,500 more than under the last Labour
Government.
I would like those police officers to do a couple of things. I
would like them to be patrolling in hotspots where crimes are a
particular problem. We have been doing hotspot patrolling in 20
force areas, in what is called Project Grip and that has
delivered very significant reductions in violent crime. We also
trialled hotspot patrolling in 10 force areas, including Essex,
Staffordshire and Lancashire, for antisocial behavioural last
year, and those delivered reductions in antisocial behaviour of
up to 36%.
Because that is working, from April this year—just a couple of
months’ time—we are putting new funding of £66 million behind it,
over and above the record police settlement. By the way, that
settlement will see an extra £922 million go to police and crime
commissioners, with that £66 million to fund hotspot patrolling
in every single police force area in the country, targeted
against antisocial behaviour and serious violence, because we
know it works. I am sure Members will be lobbying their police
and crime commissioners to make sure that those hotspot patrols
take place in areas of concern to them. I know, for example, that
one of the parts of Essex where those hotspot patrols have taken
place is Southend, and it has been effective at reducing
antisocial behaviour there.
Stop and search is another important part of this equation. It
would seem that the Mayor of London and some Opposition Members
do not like it, and I understand their concerns, but we need to
use stop and search confidently and proactively—done lawfully and
respectfully, of course—because it has taken 60,000 knives off
the streets in the last four years. Every month, in London alone,
400 knives are taken off the streets by stop and search. We need
to use it confidently and proactively and not pull back from
using it, because it will save lives. When we talk to the
families of victims—who, sadly, often come from ethnic minority
communities—they say, “If only my son’s murderer had been stopped
and searched on the way to the murder.” That is the kind of thing
we hear people say.
If anyone is concerned about disproportionality—it was a topic I
wanted to look at myself—the rate at which knives or drugs are
successfully found on people who are stopped and searched is
about the same regardless of ethnicity; whether someone is white,
black, Asian or any ethnicity, the find rate is about the same,
at approximately 22% or 23%. If there was disproportionality or
unfair behaviour by the police, we would find a difference, but
we do not. So I urge all chief constables and PCCs to use stop
and search confidently and proactively.
My hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr French)
mentioned scanning technology. Technology is being developed—it
is not ready for deployment yet, but it is being developed and we
are putting funding into it this year—to scan people walking down
the street, for example, semi-covertly. It is not a knife arch
but is a much smaller scanning device, and it can scan people to
see whether they have a knife somewhere on their person. That is
obviously much less intrusive than a stop and search, does not
lead to some of the tension stop and search can lead to, and it
is obviously much quicker to do. I am hopeful that if we can
deploy that scanning technology, it will make it near-impossible
to carry a knife in a high-traffic place such as a high street in
London. We are investing in that technology.
There is also an opportunity to catch more perpetrators using
facial recognition, including live facial recognition, which we
discussed in the Bill Committee at some length.
Don’t do this again!
The shadow Minister is worried that I am going to spend the next
20 minutes describing it; I am not going to do that, but I will
say that in the last week there has been a further deployment of
live facial recognition in Croydon and it has caught wanted
people. Over the past few weeks, people have been caught who were
wanted for knife offences, rape and other very serious offences
who would not otherwise have been caught. So live facial
recognition can help us there as well. A strong approach to
enforcement is critical, too.
We heard some political points from the Opposition Members. I
have tried to deliver these concluding remarks in a spirit that
is not too political, but a few Members said they thought the
solution to this problem was a general election. I would politely
and gently say that the largest police force in the country is
London’s, and it has a Labour police and crime commissioner.
Labour Members have said the way London is run is a model for a
future Labour Government, but of the 43 police forces I oversee,
Labour and Sadiq Khan’s stewardship of London is pretty much the
worst. In the last year, knife crime in London has gone up while
in the rest of the country it has gone down. It is the only
police force to have missed its police uplift recruitment target.
In fact it could have had an extra 1,062 police officers, for
which there was Government money available, but it did not
recruit them. If that is a model for a future Labour Government,
heaven help us all.
In the meantime, where there are measures we need to take to go
further, we will. I am very open to having constructive
discussions such as those I have agreed to have with the hon.
Member for West Ham, because I know all of us are united in our
desire to fight the scourge of knife crime. Those of us who have
attended the funerals of victims, as I did with Elianne Andam’s
family a few weeks ago, and indeed all of us are under a moral
obligation as well as a public duty obligation to do everything
we can and leave no stone unturned in fighting that scourge, and
I will work with Members on both sides of the House to make sure
we do exactly that.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House condemns the Government for overseeing a 77 per
cent increase in knife crime since 2015; recognises the
devastating impact that knife crime has on victims, their
families and the wider community; acknowledges that the
Government recently announced measures to ban zombie knives and
machetes; believes, nonetheless, that this legislation does not
go nearly far enough, meaning that a number of dangerous types of
knives and swords will remain legal and available on UK streets;
therefore calls on the Government to address the shortcomings of
the ban by extending it to cover ninja swords and consulting on a
further extension; and further calls for the Government to
establish an end-to-end review of online knife sales and
introduce criminal liability for senior management of websites
which indirectly sell illegal knives online.
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