Counsel General, we do not have a criminal justice system fit for
purpose in England and Wales, and I think the case is very well
made for devolution, and I know that you would agree with that.
At the moment, people are unnecessarily criminalised. We have
overcrowded prisons where rehabilitation is not possible to the
extent that it should take place. This then leads to more
reoffending than would otherwise happen. We know lots of people
there have mental health issues, alcohol and drug addiction, poor
literacy and numeracy skills and generally low skills. It’s
regressive and it’s counter-productive, and we badly need a more
enlightened approach along the lines of social justice and
improving quality of life for our communities that Welsh
Government is committed to.
The Independent Commission on the ConstitutionalFuture of Wales
has made the appropriate recommendation, so I just wonder what
you could tell us in terms of your assessment of the preparedness
in Wales for that devolution, and what are the most immediate
next steps that need to take place?
(Counsel General and
Minister for the Constitution)
I think one of the difficulties there has been when we talk about
the devolution of policing is that we've got to understand the
interrelationship between policing, how policing has changed over
the years, its interaction with youth offending, with social
communities, with socioeconomic issues, and so on. That
development has actually been really, really important, and to
devolve youth justice and to devolve probation also leads you to
say there is an illogic in not then also devolving policing.
Policing is devolved, of course, in Northern Ireland, as it is in
Scotland. There are devolutions of policing in Manchester and
again in London. So, I've never understood why it is that the
logic of all the devolved functions we have aren't in keeping, or
considered to be in keeping with the devolution of policing.
We, of course, do have in Wales four Police and
Crime Commissioners. They are a reserved matter. But
when the four elected Police and Crime
Commissioners all come together and say that policing
needs to be devolved, and recognise the importance of the
interrelations and work that is going on with devolved
functions, I think it's important that people sit up and listen
to that very carefully, if you really want to see policing and
the justice work more consistently and more effectively.
Can I just say that the step we have taken forward on this—? I
was in Scotland for three days looking at the tribunal system,
but also at the youth justice system, and there are some very
interesting developments there, which I'll perhaps talk about on
another occasion. But the relationship there with policing, and
the understanding of how policing works, has led us, really, to
the joint statement the Minister for Social Justice referred to a
while back. That is in respect of the research that's being
carried out, which we have commissioned with the retired Chief
Constable Carl Foulkes, who's leading a review of policing, the
opportunities from the devolution of policing, the practicalities
of it. Because I think the onus is on us now to actually make the
very, very clear case by showing, 'This is what would be
different, this is what would be better.' Of course, there are
inter-governmental issues across the UK in terms of specialist
aspects of policing—none of those should change—but I think there
is a very, very strong case there. We are working to actually
present that, and there will be further debate on this when the
conclusions of the research work that's being carried out are
available and we can debate them in the Senedd.
