The following Answer to an Urgent Question was given in the House
of Commons on Thursday 7 December. “I thank the honourable Member
for his Question, which I will answer on behalf of the Secretary of
State. The department works closely with rolling stock owners and
train operators to understand when new and refurbished trains are
likely to be required, and to ensure a regular flow of work for
train manufacturing companies. Trains are major assets, with a
lifetime of 35 to...Request free trial
The following Answer to an Urgent Question was given in the House
of Commons on Thursday 7 December.
“I thank the honourable Member for his Question, which I will
answer on behalf of the Secretary of State. The department works
closely with rolling stock owners and train operators to
understand when new and refurbished trains are likely to be
required, and to ensure a regular flow of work for train
manufacturing companies. Trains are major assets, with a lifetime
of 35 to 40 years, so there will naturally be peaks and troughs
in procurement cycles. The average age of the current fleet is 17
years.
The department has overseen the procurement of more than 8,000
new vehicles for the Great British mainline railway since 2012.
Some of those are still being produced, including Alstom trains
for South Western and West Midlands trains. Passenger travel
habits have changed over the past three years, and while numbers
are showing signs of improvement, we are still seeing reduced
passenger revenue on the railways. We are aware that Alstom is
facing difficult trading conditions. It is consulting its unions
and employees on possible job losses. While it must be a
commercial decision for Alstom, the Government have been working
with the company to explore options to enable it to continue
manufacturing at its Derby site. Officials from my department and
my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport
have held regular meetings with senior management at Alstom. We
have also convened a cross-Whitehall group to advise on ways to
support continued production at Derby and how best to support
those workers who could lose their jobs.
The fact remains that the market for passenger trains is
competitive. The department cannot guarantee orders for
individual manufacturers. None the less, we expect substantial
continued demand for new trains. Last month, LNER confirmed an
order of 10 new tri-mode trains for the east coast main line, and
on Monday, a tender for new trains for the Transpennine Express
route was launched. Contract awards are also expected between
late 2024 and early 2025 for major orders for Southeastern,
Northern and Chiltern. In the meantime, the Government will
continue to work with Alstom and other UK manufacturers to ensure
a strong and sustainable future for the rail industry”.
3.35pm
(Lab)
Alstom’s Litchurch Lane factory in Derby has provided
high-skilled jobs for generations, but uncertainty over the UK
rail industry and the lack of long-term strategy means that those
workers are now in jeopardy. The workers are a national asset.
People are one of the scarcest assets in this country; an asset
that must be looked after to preserve the capability to lead to
long-term growth.
Last Thursday, the Rail Minister in the other place, , said:
“We will be doing everything we can to assist Alstom in keeping
that plant open”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/12/23; col.
486.]
That is a very hard, precise commitment. Can the Minister tell us
what action the Government have taken in the light of that
promise?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Transport () (Con)
My Lords, we have been actively involved in discussions with
Alstom for several weeks on this matter and have held frequent
meetings with the company to look at options around its
production gap. We will continue to work with Alstom. A
cross-departmental task force has been established and officials
are meeting Alstom regularly to discuss how best to support
employees at risk of redundancy.
(LD)
My Lords, in the past, when a major long-standing employer such
as Alstom hit a crisis, the Government used to blame the shackles
of EU competition law. Well, we are not bound by that any more,
so who will the Government blame now? The truth of the matter
surely is that the Government need to provide certainty on the
new orders required.
The managing director of Alstom, in evidence to the Transport
Committee in the other place, made it clear that one of its
immediate problems is uncertainty over whether the Government
will pursue the £2 billion contract for all the 54 HS2 trains
they have ordered. Can the Minister tell us, here and now,
whether that is the case? Will the full order still be
required?
(Con)
I thank the noble Baroness for that question. What I can say to
noble Lords that manufacturers are ultimately responsible for
sourcing work for their assembly plants. There are upcoming
procurements in the market being run by Northern,
Southeastern, Transpennine and
Chiltern. It is a competition process that is open to all
manufacturers to bid, including Alstom in Derby. The department
is also working with the Treasury to set out a pipeline for
expected rolling stock orders, to provide the sector with further
clarity over the near term.
Regarding HS2, Alstom are part of a contract with Hitachi to
design, build and maintain HS2 trains for phase 1 only.
(Con)
My Lords, may I wish the Government all the best in ensuring a
future for Alstom? Who is responsible for ensuring that the
overhead electricity wires are fit for purpose? We have seen
three outages in two different parts of the country, one of which
lasted three days and caused absolute havoc on the east coast
main line. This cannot be sustainable. Will the Minister assure
us that there is a rolling programme of improvements and
refurbishment of the overhead lines, particularly on the east
coast main line?
(Con)
Well, we have been subject to adverse weather, of course. I can,
however, assure my noble friend that Network Rail is responsible
for overhead lines. I will take her comments back to the
department.
(Lab)
My Lords, I do not think the Minister answered properly the
question about HS2. It was, in my view, a disastrous decision
made by the Government to cancel the Derby and Manchester links,
so can he tell us how many trains were required, had those links
still been about to be built, and how many trains are now
required, so we can work out the deficit for ourselves? While he
is about it, will he please answer a question which his
department has repeatedly been unable to answer for me as a
Written Question: precisely how much money has been
lost—wasted—as a result of the cancellations to which I have
referred?
(Con)
The noble Lord asks two very fair questions. I do not have those
details to hand, but I will ensure that he gets them in written
form.
My Lords, last week in the other place the Department for
Transport said that the contract tenders for refurbishing
existing trains would be brought forward very soon. Time is short
for Alstom, the only end-to-end manufacturing facility in the UK.
Can the Minister give any assurances about how soon these
contracts will be brought forward, because the days are now being
counted down?
(Con)
I cannot give any specifics in terms of days, but the department
is certainly aware of this and will bring it on as soon as
possible. I assure the right reverend Prelate that, if I can
ascertain exactly how many days, I will write to him with the
information.
(CB)
My Lords, it may be my fault, but I have not actually understood
whether the current HS2 contract with the company is or is not
going to go forward.
(Con)
The contract with HS2 and Alstom will go forward in terms of
phase 1.
(Lab)
My Lords, the Minister says that there will be investment in the
railways. We know that there is money being kept safe from the
cancellation of High Speed 2; how much of that is going to be
transferred to northern schemes, because it looks quite clear
that the Government are transferring money intended for the north
down to the south?
(Con)
If I am correct, I believe it was somewhere in the region of £30
billion to £34 billion.
(Con)
My Lords, having had a small passion around railways and
networks—in fact, the last time we ordered some new rolling stock
for London, I was with the then mayor as we brought the S stock
trains into London—I have looked at the timelines and supply
chains, especially with manufacturers in and across the UK. Does
the Department for Transport have a view on what rolling stock
may be part of the ordering book when we look at network north
plans, and also for plans for the London Underground, which seem
to be going a bit slower than they should be?
(Con)
Well, the department is always talking with rail operators and
manufacturers. Of course, rail manufacturers play an important
role in growing the UK economy, and there is a strong pipeline
for future orders for UK rail manufacturers. As I perhaps alluded
to earlier, there are upcoming procurements in the market being
run by Northern, Chiltern, Transpennine and
Southeastern; this competition process is open to all
manufacturers to bid, including Alstom. As I said earlier, the
department is also working with HM Treasury to set out a pipeline
for expected rolling stock orders, to provide the sector with
further clarity over the near term.
(Lab Co-op)
My Lords, it is a pity that the noble Lord, , is not here for
this, because he is the guilty man, as he was the Minister who
privatised the railways in such a chaotic way. As well as the
overhead lines and the rails being run by one company, and the
actual services by other companies, the LNER reminded me recently
that it does not actually own its trains—it only rents them. It
is total chaos. I seem to remember that this Government—on their
last legs now, but nevertheless—suggested some kind of “Great
British Rail” set-up, to try to improve the position. What has
happened to that?
(Con)
It has been the case for many years that train companies lease
their rolling stock, and that still is the case.
(LD)
My Lords, could the Minister unpack the statement he has made,
which sounds so very reassuring, that the Government will abide
by the contract for the purchase of trains for phase 1 of HS2?
Surely, the train manufacturer invested and provided facilities
for the HS2 project overall. The same trains of course would run
beyond Manchester when the line was extended and, therefore, you
cannot mix and match two different sets of trains. Has he looked
at the economics of the decision that has been made and
understood what the consequences are for the manufacturer with
which he is contracted?
(Con)
I say, in answer to the noble Baroness’s question, that Alstom is
part of a contract with Hitachi to design, build and maintain HS2
trains for phase 1 only. Phase 1 of HS2 between Birmingham and
London will continue, with a rescoped Euston station. We expect
Alstom’s contractual obligations to be honoured with HS2 Ltd.
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