Attorney General
The Attorney General was asked—
Fraud and Economic Crime: Prosecutions
(South Shields) (Lab)
1. What steps she is taking to help ensure the effective
prosecution of perpetrators of fraud and economic
crime.(900542)
(Stockton North) (Lab)
4. What steps she is taking to help ensure effective prosecution
of perpetrators of fraud and economic crime.(900548)
The Solicitor General ()
The Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office play a
critical role in bringing economic criminals to justice. Just
yesterday, the SFO announced a new investigation into fraud at
AOG Technics Ltd, an aircraft parts supplier. That is the third
new investigation launched since Nick Ephgrave became director of
the SFO.
Mrs Lewell-Buck
Members of the Conservative party used the pandemic as an
opportunity to make money for their friends and donors totalling
£3.5 billion. When will they face justice?
The Solicitor General
I completely refute what the hon. Lady has said. I was looking
forward to her question, but I was disappointed with the tone and
substance of it. It is right to say that this Government are
taking economic crime seriously, and fraud as well. I hope she
has seen the new fraud strategy and, importantly, the report
commissioned from Jonathan Fisher KC and his review on
disclosure, which is due out next summer.
The Government’s fraud strategy in May was billed as a
comprehensive plan to tackle fraud against the public and
business, so can the Attorney General explain why it contains no
details of the number of offences suffered by business, no
estimates of the losses that result, no targets in relation to
business, no measures specific to business and not a single
mention of the two biggest types of business fraud: procurement
and payroll?
The Solicitor General
I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has seen the full
strategy—that is good news. I repeat my point about Jonathan
Fisher KC, who has some important work to do. The hon. Gentleman
will understand the volumes of crime and the volumes of digital
material in the Serious Fraud Office. Jonathan Fisher is looking
at that and at disclosure, and that will help businesses, help
individuals, help the country and help the SFO to get on with its
job.
Madam Deputy Speaker ( )
I call the Chair of the Justice Committee.
(Bromley and Chislehurst)
(Con)
The Solicitor General will recall that back in 2022 the Justice
Committee produced a report on fraud in the justice system and
the steps needed to improve the way we tackle it. I welcome a
number of the changes that have been made, including the
appointment of Mr Fisher KC, but will the Solicitor General
reflect that one of the areas of concern is the type of fraud
that is significant, causes real loss to businesses and
individuals, but falls below the level dealt with by the SFO?
There is real concern about the capacity and expertise within
police forces and the Crown Prosecution Service to tackle that
level of fraud, which falls into the gap. What is the fraud
strategy and, more broadly, what are the Government going to do
to empower the police and prosecuting authorities to tackle that
sort of fraud?
The Solicitor General
I am grateful to the Chair of the Select Committee for his
question. We take all his reports seriously, especially in this
area. The CPS charges 76% of all fraud matters placed before it
and has a conviction rate of more than 84%. I will commit to
reflecting further on this matter.
(East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
The Solicitor General will be aware that the Home Affairs
Committee has launched a review of fraud. Last week, we heard
fascinating testimony on romance fraud from the victim of the
Netflix series “The Tinder Swindler”. Remarkably in her case, she
was treated as a perpetrator, investigated by the police and
threatened with prosecution, even though she had been defrauded
out of hundreds of thousands of pounds, and was led a merry dance
by that chap, who is still doing what he did then. Is there not a
case for bringing together Law Officers, Ministers, the police
and the social media companies to ensure that we deal with the
victims and the perpetrators accordingly?
The Solicitor General
My hon. Friend always raises serious points and brings to bear
his expertise from the Home Affairs Committee. There is a case
for cross-Government working. In my role as a Law Officer I work
across all Departments, including the Home Office, and I look
forward to continuing to do so.
(Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Greensill Capital is subject to criminal investigation in the UK,
Switzerland and Germany. In Duncan Mavin’s book “A Pyramid of
Lies,” he subtitles the saga
“The Prime Minister, the Banker and the Billion-Pound
Scandal”.
Amazingly, the company was not regulated by the Financial Conduct
Authority. Will the Attorney General please look into this
massive loophole? The scandal could have been stopped if the FCA
had been able to step in earlier.
The Solicitor General
The hon. Gentleman will understand that the Attorney General and
I superintend both the Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious
Fraud Office, but that does not mean that we direct how they
conduct investigations, and nor should we. It is right and proper
that both organisations conduct their matters independently of
Government, and that will continue.
(Harrow East) (Con)
Further to the question by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley
and Chislehurst ( ), what guidelines are given
not only to the police but to the Crown Prosecution Service about
the level at which fraud will be investigated? As chair of the
all-party parliamentary group on personal banking and fairer
financial services, I have referred a number of cases that have
come to me to the police and to the CPS, and they say that they
do not have the resources to investigate them. Could my hon. and
learned Friend update the House on the position?
The Solicitor General
My hon. Friend is diligent in these matters, and he raises an
issue that affects us all as constituency MPs, as we have all had
cases brought to us that need to be investigated. I work very
closely with both the police and the Home Office, and I will
continue to do so.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
(Kingston upon Hull East)
(Lab)
In January 2022, the then Chancellor said that, clearly,
criminals have sought to exploit our covid support schemes,
and
“We’re going to do everything we can to get that money back and
go after those who took advantage of the pandemic.”
What proportion of that money has been recovered so far? How many
of those who took advantage have been sent to jail?
The Solicitor General
First, I warmly welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place or,
rather, back to his place, as I understand that this is his third
outing in the shadow ministerial team. It is pleasing to see his
predecessor, the hon. Member for Hammersmith (), whose name is on the Order
Paper. We look forward to his question.
The shadow Minister will be interested to know that I recently
visited the Insolvency Service, which is conducting
investigations into the bounce back loan scheme and the like. We
must remember that the covid lending schemes delivered just under
£80 billion of finance in almost record time. It was called for
from across the House and should be supported, but he is right
that those who have committed fraud should be investigated.
Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme
(Torbay) (Con)
2. What assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the
Unduly Lenient Sentence scheme. (900546)
The Solicitor General
In 2022, my office received 819 requests to review unduly lenient
sentences. Of those, 139 were referred to the Court of Appeal,
and the sentence was increased in 68% of cases.
I welcome much of the work being done. As the Solicitor General
will be aware, a serving Royal Navy sailor was the subject of a
violent attack in Torquay when he attempted to stop a group of
yobs stamping a bird to death, but the unduly lenient community
sentences and small fines handed down did not reflect the gravity
of the offence or provide any deterrent. What steps will the
Government take to review the unduly lenient sentence scheme to
cover cases such as that?
The Solicitor General
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. I know he
has had a long-standing interest in this subject since even
before he was a Member of the House, and I am grateful to him for
holding the Government to account. He knows that the ULS
scheme—the unduly lenient sentence scheme—is reserved for the
most serious matters. It is right to say that we keep the scheme
under review. I cannot promise or guarantee to my hon. Friend any
imminent changes to it, but I am very grateful to him for raising
that important case.
(Huddersfield)
(Lab/Co-op)
Could the Solicitor General make it clearer what the scheme is
about and spread the message more broadly? I regularly write to
him to say that a sentence has been too lenient. I recently wrote
to him about Bernie Ecclestone, who I thought should have been
severely punished for his behaviour. I have also sometimes
written to the Solicitor General and his predecessors about too
severe sentences, often involving women who have not conducted
any violent crime but get long sentences. Can we have a balance,
please?
The Solicitor General
Well, it is a Thursday, and I think we have heard a call for a
Backbench Business debate or, indeed, for an Adjournment debate,
and I would warmly welcome that. There have been such debates on
the unduly lenient sentence scheme. It is not a mystery—there are
further details online—but I would seriously welcome a further
debate to air these matters, because they are important. The hon.
Gentleman is right to say that the balance between, on the one
hand, unduly lenient sentences, and on the other hand, manifestly
excessive sentences is important, and I look forward to his
application for a debate.
Hamas and Israel: Breaches of International Law
(York Central)
(Lab/Co-op)
3. If she will hold discussions with Cabinet colleagues on
consulting the International Criminal Court on potential breaches
of international law in the conflict between Hamas and Israel.
(900547)
The Attorney General ()
I know that the hon. Lady cares deeply about the region. She and
I—and, indeed, you, Madam Deputy Speaker—visited the region
together some years ago, and I know that at the current time all
of us will be thinking about the places we visited and the people
we met. In answer to her question, the ICC started an
investigation into the situation in Palestine in March 2021.
I thank the Attorney General for her response. In the light of
the brutality and sexual violence perpetrated against Israeli
civilians by the terrorists of Hamas, and the scale of the
indiscriminate bombing of tens of thousands of Palestinians,
including children, in Gaza, how is she urging the UK Government
to advocate for the end of the killing to ensure that the
International Criminal Court can gather the most detailed
evidence to weigh the actions of all parties against
international law at the earliest opportunity?
The Attorney General
The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and, indeed, the whole
of the UK Government have consistently urged that international
humanitarian law must be followed in this case. The ICC
prosecutor, who is a British-born barrister—Karim Khan, with whom
I have had a number of extremely helpful meetings over the course
of my time as Attorney General—has said that the investigation
is
“ongoing and extends to the escalation of hostilities and
violence since the attacks that took place on 7 October”.
Madam Deputy Speaker ( )
I call the spokesman for the Scottish National party.
Brendan O'Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Article 86 of the Rome statute says that, in relation to the work
of the International Criminal Court, state parties shall
“cooperate fully with the Court in its investigation and
prosecution of crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court.”
Given that in 2022 the UK referred Russia to the ICC, can we
assume that the UK will comply with any request from the ICC for
footage from the reconnaissance flights operating over Gaza? If
not, what would be the legal basis for refusing an ICC
request?
The Attorney General
As I said, the UK supports the ICC and its chief prosecutor Karim
Khan. We do have surveillance flights operating in the region.
The primary purpose of those is to help with the hostage
situation. We will say once again that we very much hope that the
hostages will be released immediately. It is absolutely the case
that we will continue to urge all parties to continue to abide by
international humanitarian law.
Rule of Law within Government
(Manchester, Withington)
(Lab)
5. What recent steps has she taken with Cabinet colleagues to
uphold the rule of law within Government. (900549)
(Hammersmith) (Lab)
6. What recent steps has she taken with Cabinet colleagues to
uphold the rule of law within Government(900550)
The Attorney General ()
As I emphasised to the House of Lords Constitution Committee in
June, the rule of law is fundamental to our constitution, and it
is the duty of the Law Officers to uphold it.
I will not ask the Attorney General to comment on specific legal
advice that she has given to colleagues—I know she cannot do
that—but, as a general point of principle, does she agree that
the inclusion of a notwithstanding clause in legislation cannot
magic away the international laws to which it refers, especially
if an individual claimant can still assert their rights under
those international laws?
The Attorney General
As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, I am unable to do away
with client confidentiality and give him the specifics of any
legal advice that I may or may not have given. I take very
seriously my obligations to encourage the Government to act in a
lawful manner and to ensure that the Government are acting in a
lawful manner, both on the domestic front and on the
international front.
While it is a pleasure to see my hon. Friend the Member for
Kingston upon Hull East () back in his rightful place on
the Front Bench, I wonder how long the Attorney General will feel
able to remain in hers. How comfortable is she with the draft
Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill, which seeks to
oust the jurisdiction of our highest courts, denies our country’s
international treaty obligations and treats our constitution and
the rule of law with contempt? She has rightly said that her
first duty is
“as an officer of the court”,
and she has called for a “respectful relationship” between the
Executive and the courts. Is that why her name does not appear on
the face of the Bill?
The Attorney General
May I start by thanking the former shadow Solicitor General for
his great work while in that post and in particular for his
championing of the pro bono movement, which I know he has always
taken extremely seriously? It has been and remains a pleasure to
do business with him. He knows perfectly well—better than
most—that I cannot give from the Dispatch Box the details of
legal advice that I have been giving to the Government, or of
whether or not I have been giving such advice. That remains the
case. I remain very comfortable in my role, and I hope that I
will remain in this role to give the Government legal advice for
a long time to come.
(Islington South and
Finsbury) (Lab)
I join colleagues on both sides of the House in welcoming the new
shadow Solicitor General, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston
upon Hull East (), to his place. I am delighted
to see his predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith
(), still contributing to our
debates. It is a pleasure and a blessing to work with both of
them.
As the previous questions illustrate, there is an intense level
of public interest both inside and outside the House about the
legal implications of the new Rwanda Bill. While I appreciate
that there is a doctrine of client confidentiality, it is
nevertheless right to ask the Attorney General formally if she
will publish her full legal advice on the Bill, as happened with
the Brexit withdrawal agreement, or a summary of the legal
position, as happened with the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill. In
particular, will she set out the advice given to her colleagues
across Government on whether the introduction and implementation
of the Bill is compatible with their obligations under the
ministerial code and the civil service code?
The Attorney General
The right hon. Lady understands, as I hope all of us in the
Chamber do, the complications of the Law Officers convention,
which means that I simply cannot go into the details of my advice
here. On very rare occasions, either legal advice has been leaked
or, more recently, I am glad to say, a summary of the
Government’s legal position, which may or may not include the
Attorney General’s advice, has been provided. The sort of
circumstances in which we would envisage that to be appropriate
would be if we were taking military action overseas, for example.
It is not something that is done on a regular basis.
What I would say to colleagues, because there has been a great
deal of interest in the legal position surrounding the Bill, is
that the use of a section 19(1)(b) statement is not
unprecedented. In fact, I remember, as a much younger lawyer,
when used such a statement for the
Communications Act 2003. That Act went on to be tested in the
Strasbourg Court and the Government were successful in that case,
so I would not read too much into the use of a section 19(1)(b)
statement. It is unusual, but not unprecedented.
Covid-19 related Fraud: Prosecutions
(Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath)
(Alba)
7. What recent discussions she has had with the Serious Fraud
Office on the prosecution of covid-19 related fraud. (900551)
The Solicitor General ()
The Attorney General and I regularly meet with the SFO director;
however, the vast majority of covid fraud cases do not fall
within the SFO’s remit, and investigations are handled by the
most appropriate agency. Recently, as the hon. Gentleman will
have heard, I visited the Insolvency Service and heard about its
excellent work in relation to bounce bank loans.
Given the statement by the former director of the Serious Fraud
Office that red flags were ignored, and that Parliament’s own
spending watchdog estimates potential fraud of £16 billion, how
much has been recovered to date and what further lessons have
been learned and applied to ensure that identification and
prevention of fraud is embedded across all Government
Departments, and why are the UK Government not recovering that
fraud with the same zeal and determination that they have for
impoverishing benefit claimants who have had overpayments through
no fault of their own?
The Solicitor General
I entirely refute and disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s final
comment, but he will be pleased to know that the new director of
the SFO has set off apace. He has launched new investigations.
There is a new energy and a new rigour within the SFO, but I
repeat that it is not just the SFO that conducts such
investigations; the Insolvency Service is also involved, and is
also carrying out some excellent work.
Small Boat Crossings: Prosecution Rates
(Glasgow South West)
(SNP)
8. What steps she is taking to increase prosecution rates for
small boat gangs and other people traffickers. (900553)
The Solicitor General ()
Earlier this year, the Attorney General and I visited Western Jet
Foil and the joint control room in Dover to discuss the Illegal
Migration Act 2023. The number of small boat crossings is down by
a third this year, and we are seeing an increase in the number of
prosecutions since the introduction of the Nationality and
Borders Act 2022.
Yesterday the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill was
laid before the House. It would disapply the Human Rights Act
1998 for those seeking sanctuary. That undermines the UK’s
international reputation and international law. The Home
Secretary said yesterday at the Dispatch Box that the Attorney
General made it clear that the Bill is in conformity with
international law, so can he confirm that that advice was given,
and how is it meant to impact small boat crossings and
prosecutions?
The Solicitor General
The hon. Gentleman has kindly been present throughout question
time, so he will know that I cannot confirm or deny whether
advice was even sought, let alone given, let alone its content.
His question is about small boat crossings, which Government
Members are determined to stop. I was disappointed that he did
not support our Nationality and Borders Act, which prosecuted the
people traffickers. That is the substance of his question. I look
forward to his reading the Bill in more detail and supporting it
in due course.
