Extract from Welsh Parliament: Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution - Nov 15

Mark Isherwood MS: Thank you. I, and I'm sure all other Members, would welcome those updates.

But sticking with the Welsh Government's programme for government, you issued a joint statement with the social justice Minister yesterday on research to prepare for the devolution of policing in Wales. This stated that this commitment follows the unanimous recommendation of the Thomas Commission on Justice in Wales in 2019, adding that this includes understanding the impacts on cross-border working. However, despite my repeated questions to you regarding omissions about this from the Thomas commission report, you still failed to address the serious points raised.

The report makes only one reference to the key issue of cross-border criminality, in the context of county lines, and the only solution proposed is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, without any reference to the established joint working with neighbouring partners across the invisible crime and justice border with England.

As I've also repeatedly stated that, when I visited Titan, the north-west regional organised crime unit, with the then Senedd cross-party group on policing—Titan being a collaboration between North Wales Police and north-west England forces—for a presentation on the impact of serious and organised crime, including the link with county lines and the supply of controlled drugs, they told me that evidence given to the Thomas commission was largely ignored in the commission's report. How, therefore, will you ensure that the team you've now commissioned will address this?

Mick Antoniw MS (Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution): Firstly, can I again thank you for raising that? I think it's an important point that you do raise. The issue of the devolution of policing is important. Our concern predominantly with policing, of course, is the integration of policing within all those other aspects of devolved services, which form part of a common jigsaw, in not only the delivering of justice but also dealing with many of the social issues that we have within our society that a modern police force actually has to deal with. It is also something, of course, that has been engaged by the four Police and Crime Commissioners within Wales, all of whom are supportive of this. So, the growth of support for the devolution of policing, I think, is something that has grown, and is basically, I think, accepted fairly commonly among those who are involved in the justice sector, and I think also the same with regard to the Police and Crime Commissioners.

Can I also say, on the devolution of policing, that we already have it in Northern Ireland, and we have it in Scotland? There is devolution in Manchester and it is also in London as well. None of that causes any specific problems. You are right to raise the issue of cross-border. Cross-border is something that is always necessary to be maintained, so that you have that strategic approach to policing across the board, and that will be something that will be very much in mind in terms of the research that we want. We think the arguments in terms of the merits and the rationale for the devolution of policing are pretty clear, and I think they are equally applicable not only to those areas that already have the devolution of policing, but also to other areas of England as well. I think that is recognised, and it's the same with aspects of the devolution of justice. 

The reason for carrying out the research, of course, is because we want to actually build on that, to better understand it, to look at the mechanisms as to how the very issues that you raise would actually be dealt with in an environment where, I think, there is also a very recognised rationale for the devolution of policing in so many areas that affect our communities and relate to what is important about the localisation of policing. Considerable work has already been done, again, by the Minister for Social Justice, in terms of the policing partnership, which she is very heavily involved in. I've been grateful to be able to attend on occasion as well. I think the proof of the pudding will be when we see the research from the experts that have very clear expertise and practical expertise in this area. I'm sure that the work they do and the report they eventually produce will be of considerable value to all Members of this Senedd. 

Mark Isherwood MS: Failure to address their statement that evidence given to the Thomas commission was largely ignored would, I am sure you accept, reinforce the impression that you would be pursuing policy-led evidence. Of course, the four Police and Crime Commissioners are also party politicians and the powers of the mayors in London and Manchester, for example, are equivalent to a police and crime commissioner. I trust you're not proposing that those powers should be centred in a single person in Cardiff.

Although your statement yesterday included that the four police forces in Wales have already chosen to work together and with the Welsh Government and other bodies, police officers, from constables to chief constables, repeatedly emphasise that they cannot become involved in policy matters and their involvement is purely operational. When I visited the north-west region organised crime unit, they also told me, as I've said before, that all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England, that 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border, east-west basis, and that North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis.

Although you previously avoided responding to these facts when I've raised them with you, the officers who told me this included senior members of the then north Wales chief constable's command team, and I note that the review you announced yesterday will be led by that former chief constable. Given that justice and policing operate on an east-west basis across Wales, and that most people in Wales live in or near regions straddling the border with England, what assurance can you now provide that objective evidence from police forces and other relevant bodies across the border, but operating with forces and relevant bodies within Wales, will be included in the review? 

Mick Antoniw MS: Thank you for the points, again, that you raise. I think some of the points, which are criticisms of certain operations of the police, seem to me to be supportive exactly of the reason why we think it is important that there is a devolution of policing, so they could be addressed within that broader framework. But leaving that to one side, I think, having commissioned now this expert evidence, the key way forward is to wait until that evidence comes, to then considerate it, evaluate it and then we'll debate it in this Chamber. The points you raise very generally I think are ones that will be addressed within that report and we'll be able to discuss within this Chamber. I think that is the way that we will take this forward.