Extracts from
pre-recess debate
(Gateshead) (Lab):...Good quality, affordable and
reliable public transport is the backbone of any modern and
high-performing economy, but for too many years we have seen that
vital public infrastructure chopped up and sold off, handed to
companies with neither any experience nor any interest in
operating for the public or economic good of the country, which
carve out profits at the expense of their staff, their customers
and the local and regional economy, then hand back the reins when
they have squeezed out every last drop of profit. That is why
Network Rail, London North Eastern Railway, Northern
and Transpennine Express are all
now in public ownership...
(Cleethorpes) (Con):...The
rail sector has done much in recent years to assist, in
particular, blind and disabled people, and it is those people who
are most up in arms about this project. Compromises are surely
available. May I suggest one? Perhaps, before implementation—and
I hope that implementation is delayed, preferably long delayed—we
could at least know where the staff will be redeployed and the
hours for which they will available at the station. There are 10
railway stations in my constituency, and only one, at
Cleethorpes, has a ticket office. The objection from North
Lincolnshire Council, which has been sent to the Secretary of
State, says:
“The Council has previously worked in partnership
with Transpennine Express to
refurbish and upgrade the ticket offices at Cleethorpes and
Grimsby Town train stations. The Council’s financial contribution
was made through the Local Transport Plan Capital Programme. If
the ticket offices are closed… North East Lincolnshire will not
experience the anticipated benefits from the Council’s
…contribution.”
End of business
adjournment debate on Scunthorpe Station Ticket Office
(Scunthorpe) (Con)
I am grateful to have the opportunity to raise the proposed
closure of the ticket office at Scunthorpe train station. I
waited for an Adjournment debate for several weeks, and two have
come along at once. I feel fortunate today.
I thank the Minister for his time today. I know he will be having
a busy day, so I am grateful we have the opportunity to talk
about this issue. Earlier this month, many Members, including me,
received an email from Transpennine Express to
tell us that, in conjunction with train operators across the
country, it will be consulting on closing a number of ticket
offices that it is responsible for staffing and reducing the
number of hours that staff are present in stations.
The proposals as they stand are for the entire closure of the
ticket office in Scunthorpe station and to change the number of
hours that staff will be present in the station. Currently, it is
staffed from 5.15 am to 8.15 pm, Monday to Saturday. That will
change to 7 am to 2 pm. On Sundays, the current hours of 8.30 am
to 8.30 pm will change to 9 am to 4 pm. That is ridiculous. It is
a halving of the hours that staff will be there. To be clear,
that is completely and entirely unacceptable.
I am particularly concerned about the impact the cuts could have
on elderly residents in my constituency. The closure of the
ticket office will force people to use the machines or their
phones, or to pay for tickets at home using their computer. My
understanding is that older travellers are less likely to be
digitally connected and to have the know-how to use the machines.
I accept that for some it will be fine, but for many it will not.
In the absence of a ticket office, they may find themselves
stuck. They are also more likely to be dependent on cash. One in
five older people relies on cash for payments, according to Age
UK, and under these proposals it may not always be possible for
people to go into a station and buy a ticket using cash. That
cannot be right.
(Darlington) (Con)
The Minister will know that I have expressed concerns about the
proposed ticket office closure at Darlington. With £139 million
of intervention in Darlington station, it seems short-sighted to
lose that facility. Does my hon. Friend agree that the needs of
disabled people, including those with visual impairment and
wheelchair users who cannot reach the screens of ticket machines,
will be severely impacted?
My hon. Friend is spot on in his observation. I am also concerned
about the impact that the closures could have on disabled people,
and that issue has been raised with me by disabled members of my
community in Scunthorpe.
According to the UK consumer digital index from Lloyds bank,
people with a disability are 35% less likely to have digital
skills for life, meaning that in the absence of a ticket office
they may be left at a disadvantage. It is just not acceptable
that we would make it harder for disabled people to travel around
the country.
On top of the difficulty in accessing tickets, the reduction in
staffing time is of huge concern. In relation to disabled members
of the community and passengers who need extra help, customers
with hearing impairments, for example, may find it difficult to
obtain information if staffing hours are reduced, particularly if
they rely on lip reading. The screens that have the information
up for the trains do not always work.
(Cleethorpes) (Con)
I can give my hon. Friend a practical example. I used Scunthorpe
station last Thursday after attending an event just outside the
town. The ticket office was closed. I checked train times before,
and everything was running. I got on to the platform, the
information board was not working and no train turned up at the
due time. People were left scratching their heads, trying to find
out the information from their phones. The information has to be
readily available for all people, including blind people and the
disabled, and I fully support my hon. Friend in her efforts to
keep the ticket office open.
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, which we did not
even set up.
Ticket machines are, of course, not infallible. They can break,
and can take a while to be replaced or repaired. It will simply
be more difficult for some passengers to get the best deal
possible without having a person there to speak to. I am also
concerned about having waiting rooms open without staff
supervision, which may make them a magnet for antisocial
behaviour—something that we work really hard in Scunthorpe to
tackle. We do not want to invite that.
I am not alone in making these objections; they are shared widely
by residents in Scunthorpe. Ahead of the debate, and immediately
after the proposals were announced, I reached out to my
constituents on this issue. We are not backward in coming forward
in Scunthorpe, and my constituents have been very clear what
their views are. Of the respondents to the survey, an
overwhelming 95%—these are broadly people who use the station; we
have recorded that information—did not support the closure of the
ticket office and the changes to staffing hours.
One of the key issues that respondents highlighted was the
importance of recognising the impact that the sole use of ticket
machines or online purchase would have on elderly or disabled
people. Respondents pointed out that some people might not be
able to use the ticket machines or purchase online without
assistance, with 37% highlighting customer service. Many stated
quite simply that they prefer a face-to-face service and the
ability to ask for advice on the quickest routes and make other
general inquiries, regardless of what time they are at the
station.
(Hyndburn) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that many of our residents understand
that getting people out from behind the screen and on to the
platforms would be helpful, but when hours are reduced nobody is
there to help residents understand when the trains are coming? In
Accrington, we see a lot of delays at our train station, and if
nobody is at the ticket office we do not know what will happen
next. Does she agree that the reduction in hours is key in this
process?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was quite prepared to be
pragmatic about this issue if the reality was that the staff
member would be able to help for the exact same number of hours,
but that is simply not the case.
Another issue raised by my constituents was safety and security.
They said that they were very concerned about solo and elderly
travellers, and people travelling late into the evening.
Recently, I picked up a family member a couple of times who had
been away to do a course and was using the train service to do
that. I would not like to think that at 8 o’clock on a winter’s
night there would be no member of staff at the station.
On its website, Transpennine Express
stated:
“This more modern approach to customer service will mean the
traditional ticket office is no longer required as our staff will
be able to help customers purchase tickets on the concourse”.
In its impact assessment specifically for Scunthorpe, it said
that
“customers will experience a more visible staff presence at
stations”.
I struggle to understand how that can be the case when the staff
will be there for only half the amount of time they are there at
the moment. To me, that just sounds like nonsense. They are warm
words from Transpennine Express,
but you have to get up a little earlier in the morning to sneak
something like that past the residents of Scunthorpe.
Scunthorpe ticket office is not unused: nearly 32,000 tickets
were sold there last year, and an awful lot of residents rely on
its services to buy their train tickets. I know that the decision
has been taken by the current Transpennine Express
management, but the Government are not fully removed from
influence over it. I feel that it is my duty as a constituency MP
to represent my constituents’ views on this matter, and push the
Government to ensure that ticket offices remain open. Closure
would undermine the efforts that the Government have made to
improve customer service on our railways. This comes after a
period when we have received a substandard level of service in
Scunthorpe. Closing the ticket office would be an obvious
backward step.
I hope that the Minister has taken on board the views of my
constituents, and will do all that he can to ensure that we keep
ticket offices open. I thank the staff who work at Scunthorpe
ticket office. This must be a very worrying and difficult time
for them. They do a fantastic job, and my complaints are no
reflection on them. They do a wonderful job, and I express my
sympathies to them at this time.
5.13pm
The Minister of State, Department for Transport ()
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe () on securing this debate
on the proposals regarding the Scunthorpe station ticket office.
Scunthorpe station, as she stated, is managed by Transpennine trains,
which I understand proposes to close all ticket office windows at
Scunthorpe station and move staff to other station areas where
they are better placed to help passengers buy tickets, to provide
advice and to give assistance.
There has been a huge shift in the way passengers purchase
tickets. Nearly half of all ticket sales in rail are made online.
Around one in every 10 transactions took place at a ticket office
in 2022-23, down from one in three a decade earlier, equal to 13%
of rail revenue. I understand from Transpennine trains
that statistics for Scunthorpe station reflect this position,
with 11% of transactions from Scunthorpe station being made from
the ticket office. The figures that have been supplied to me show
that is equivalent to 59 transactions per day from the ticket
office.
It is important that industry takes steps to modernise the
passenger experience, by moving staff out from ticket offices to
be more visible and accessible around the station. These reforms
will bring our stations in tune with what customers expect from
other modern and responsive services, including supermarkets and
banks, where customer assistants help with information and
support, and help make digital transactions on the shop
floor.
I welcome the fact that the rail industry has started this
process by launching consultations on the future of ticket
offices, under the ticketing and settlement agreement process.
That process sets out a well-established mechanism that train
operators must follow when proposing major changes to ticket
office opening hours, including closures.
Does my hon. Friend agree that a member of staff can be more
visible only if they are physically in the station? It is
impossible for a member of staff to assist a passenger buying a
ticket from a ticket machine if they are not there.
The aim is a redeployment aim, as I understand it from the train
operator, but I take the point with regard to hours. My hon.
Friend will be aware that I just set out the process. This is a
consultation process. Ultimately, it falls back to the passenger
groups, who represent passengers, to discuss these proposals with
each train operator. If they are not satisfied that, for example,
the accessibility requirements will be met, which has to be
legally met, they will rescope those changes. If they are not
agreed by the train operator and the passenger group feels it
needs to be taken further, it will be for the Secretary of State
to determine. Her point is well made; I will just leave it there,
given this is a live consultation.
Train operators began the passenger consultations on 5 July. This
is an industry-led process, with each train operator managing its
own station-by-station consultation. I understand my hon. Friend
is particularly concerned about the impact of the changes on
elderly and disabled passengers. Indeed, my hon. Friend the
Member for Darlington () made the same point. As part
of the ticketing and settlement agreement process, train
operators must set out the improvements or alternatives they
propose to put in place to support the needs of passengers, and
include that in the notice sent to the other operators and the
passenger bodies, to which I just referred.
Each operator’s approach must take into consideration the
potential impact on individuals with accessibility needs. I
recognise that not everyone has access to a smart phone or the
internet, and that some passengers will prefer to use cash or to
speak to a member of staff. This week, I met with accessibility
groups again, to hear their views directly and to encourage them
to work with the train operators to help shape these ideas. I
also met with the train operators this week, and reiterated the
need to ensure proposals worked for every passenger.
(Paisley and Renfrewshire
North) (SNP)
ScotRail looked at this, in terms of ticket office hours and
whatnot, last year. After the consultation, it rowed back from
the idea; it was going to close only three ticket offices and to
reduce a lot of hours. The Minister said that each operator is
looking at individual stations, but I am a little confused. I
travel from Glasgow Central on a regular basis. Avanti has plans
to close the Glasgow Central ticket office. Even a small
percentage of those tickets—the queues go literally from the
platform to outside the station—is quite a lot of tickets. The
LNER has chosen not to close the Edinburgh Waverley ticket
office. With broadly similar ratios in ticket sales, why is one
closing and the other still open? What is the difference between
them?
It is certainly the case that a number of stations are not part
of the proposed closures. Just over 70 ticket offices will remain
open. Another example is Manchester, where the ticket office at
Manchester Piccadilly will not remain open, if these proposals
are followed through, but Victoria and Oxford Road ticket offices
will remain open. Given that the hon. Member is also the SNP
shadow transport spokesperson, I will do him the honour of
writing to him so I can set out in more detail exactly why one
station has been chosen over another and the methodology. Indeed,
perhaps I can put that in the Library for all to read.
As modern ticketing and payment methods are rolled out more
widely, we will work with industry to ensure that everyone
remains able to buy a ticket. Staff will be available to provide
additional support to those who need and want it, including by
helping passengers to use ticket machines and providing the type
of assistance that my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes
() said occurs under the
current system. In the event that suitable tickets cannot be
purchased from the station of departure, passengers will not be
expected to travel out of their way to buy a ticket, and will be
able to buy en route or at their final destination.
For a lot of people there is a great deal of anxiety about the
idea of getting on a train and going somewhere when they do not
have a ticket in their hand or on their phone. I am probably
bolshie enough to get on the train and hope I can sort it out
somewhere along the journey, but many people will not be. If that
change needs to go ahead, it needs to be widely publicised and
people need to be given the confidence to be able to travel in
that way.
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It is certainly uppermost
in my mind that there will need to be additional training.
Forty-three per cent of all stations currently do not have a
ticket office, and it is perfectly possible for passengers from
those stations to travel, as they do now. Sometimes ticket
machines are not operating; at that particular juncture, the
staff on the train will be aware of the situation and will act
accordingly. On the trains I use, I am used to people getting on
board and saying, “I’ve been unable to purchase a ticket. Can I
purchase one?” and in all my years I have never experienced any
response but, “Yes, that’s absolutely fine,” rather than going
down the penalty fare route. My hon. Friend makes a good point,
though, and I will make sure it is followed up.
Will the Minister give way?
I will, and then I will make a little progress.
I want to raise a point related to his comments about moving
staff out of the ticket office on to the platform to provide
assistance. At Darlington station, the ticket machines are in
front of the barriers. I urge him to make sure that, where staff
are moved out from behind the counter, they are on the right side
of the ticket barriers so that they can provide assistance. I
make one further point with regard to the time: an app can
provide people with the opportunity to purchase before a train
leaves the station.
My hon. Friend has made some good points today, including about
the design process. I encourage hon. Members to continue to come
up with the examples of where things need to work better.
Ninety-nine per cent of all tickets are available from ticket
machines or online, but that means that 1% are not. I am working
at pace to increase that number. My hon. Friend is right about
the whereabouts and location of staff; they need to be there so
that passengers can buy the ticket and then access the barriers.
We will follow that through, and I encourage him also to continue
to come up with examples.
Some operators are proposing changes to staffed hours at
stations, such as TransPennine’s proposal for Scunthorpe station,
as mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Scunthorpe and
for Hyndburn (). Transpennine has told
me that it is clear in its consultation that all currently
staffed stations will remain staffed, but I take the point about
the hours. I reiterate to my hon. Friend the Member for
Scunthorpe the point about the consultation process and the
appeals process, should an appeal need to be made.
rose—
I have stirred my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes from his
place.
If we take at face value what the train companies are saying—that
this is an effort to save money—and they are moving staff out of
the ticket office on to the platform, is the Minister reassured
by them that there will be a saving?
There will of course be some members of staff who will not wish
to make that journey, as their job changes to being multi-skilled
and multifaceted within the station as opposed to solely working
behind the ticket office. In such cases, where there are a number
of ticket office staff available, perhaps one may come out and do
that multifaceted role, but the other two may not wish to go on
that journey. That may be an issue for them and the station. I
recognise, though, that Members have highlighted the challenge of
situations in which only one staff member is present and perhaps
the hours are not exactly the same. I refer again to the live
consultation: that should be fed back. People will be aware of
the appeals process because I have just detailed it, and we will
of course see what occurs at the end of the process.
I hope I am not repeating myself when I say that passengers will
remain able to secure staff assistance and will continue to have
access to station facilities such as waiting rooms and toilets as
currently provided.
Is the Minister concerned about the possible risk of antisocial
behaviour if we move from having staffed stations to unstaffed
periods of time in the evenings, which is what is proposed in
Scunthorpe?
The London underground moved from having ticket-office staff to
the type of model I am describing, and I do not believe there was
any impact vis-à-vis antisocial behaviour. Again, I encourage my
hon. Friend to put forward such points. There will of course be
engagement and there is a requirement to meet thresholds to
ensure that groups with characteristics are looked after and that
we do not increase antisocial behaviour. I encourage her to
follow up on those points, which I assure her I have raised
myself.
My hon. Friend referred to station safety following the reform.
The UK’s rail network is one of the safest in Europe and we will
never compromise the safety of passengers on our railways. As the
industry takes forward vital reforms, safety remains a top
priority for all, and certainly for me. It is expected that
moving staff out of ticket offices will make them more visible to
passengers, and I hope that it will enhance safety when members
of staff are on the platform.
Will the Minister give way?
I will give way one more time—my hon. Friend is working hard.
I am so grateful to the Minister. I do not mean to be flippant,
but I should point out that although moving staff out from ticket
offices may make them more visible, moving them entirely out of
the station, so that they are not there, certainly will not. I am
particularly worried about periods of time when there will no
longer be staff at the station.
I hear my hon. Friend’s point. I refer, of course, to the fact
that there is a consultation. I hope she appreciates the argument
I am making that while the staff are there, if they are away from
the ticket office and on the frontline, they are accessible, can
give information and can make people more secure. She made the
point that, if there is a reduction in hours, there will not be a
member of staff there. I refer again to the feedback to the
consultation, but I absolutely take that point. I do not want to
pre-empt anything in respect of the outcome, but her voice is
heard in the Chamber and her points are on the record.
Mr Deputy Speaker no doubt wants me to wrap up, so I should get
to the end of my speech. I encourage my hon. Friend, all right
hon. and hon. Members, and all constituents to respond to the
consultation, and I will encourage Transpennine trains and
all other operators to take those responses into account as they
finalise their approaches. The consultations provide the
opportunity to scrutinise the train operating company proposals
to ensure that they will work for passengers. Passengers will be
able to find out more about the proposals at their local station
or online. If passengers want to raise views, they can contact
the relevant passenger body, London TravelWatch or Transport
Focus. The passenger bodies will consider any feedback from the
public on the ticket office proposals. I will meet them shortly
to ensure that they have the resources to fulfil their important
role.
I believe that the industry’s proposed reforms should enable
staff to provide a more flexible, agile and personal service. I
reiterate that my hon. Friend should encourage her constituents
to engage in the consultation process for Scunthorpe station
ticket office, as that is the best way to ensure that their views
are considered. Once again, I thank my hon. Friend for securing
this important debate on station ticket offices. I wish you, Mr
Deputy Speaker, a wonderful summer, and thank all the staff in
this great place, including the police who keep us secure. I wish
everyone—all the officials who work across Whitehall as well as
all our great people inside this building—a wonderful summer. I
will be spending three weeks on the railway, following in the
footsteps of Michael Portillo, although without the dress sense.
I will be looking at what our wonderful railway does and all the
people who work on it. I look forward to spending my August with
the great railway community.
Mr Deputy Speaker ( )
Let me know when you get to Clitheroe, won’t you? I will now put
the Question for the last time before the summer recess.
Question put and agreed to.
