Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask
the Secretary of State if he will make a statement on plans to
close rail ticket offices. The Minister of State, Department for
Transport (Huw Merriman) I am answering the urgent question on
behalf of the Secretary of State, who is currently involved in this
process, so it is appropriate for me to respond. There has been a
huge shift in the way in which passengers purchase tickets at
railway...Request free trial
(Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State if he will make
a statement on plans to close rail ticket offices.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport ()
I am answering the urgent question on behalf of the Secretary of
State, who is currently involved in this process, so it is
appropriate for me to respond.
There has been a huge shift in the way in which passengers
purchase tickets at railway stations, with about one in every 10
transactions taking place in ticket offices in 2022-23. That is
down from one in three a decade earlier and equates to 13% of
rail revenue. Despite this, our stations have hardly changed in
the past 10 years, which means that staff are constrained to work
in ticket offices, although they could serve passengers better on
station platforms and concourses. I am pleased that the rail
industry has launched consultations on the future of ticket
offices under the ticketing and settlement agreement process,
which will give the public an opportunity to scrutinise the train
operating companies’ proposals to ensure that they work in the
best possible way for passengers.
These changes are about modernising the passenger experience by
moving staff out of ticket offices to be more visible and
accessible around the station. Crucially, no currently staffed
stations will be unstaffed as a result of this reform—staff will
still be there to provide assistance and additional support for
those who need and want it—and the new approach will take into
consideration the potential impact on individuals with protected
characteristics. It is of course vital that our railway is
accessible to all and I have engaged directly with accessibility
groups and will continue to do so.
This is an industry process, so I encourage Members and their
constituents to engage with their local train operators to find
out more about the proposals for their local stations. If
passengers want to raise any views, they can contact the relevant
passenger body. I believe that the industry’s proposed reforms
could enable staff to provide a more flexible, agile and personal
service, creating the modern experience that people expect.
Yesterday, the Rail Delivery Group confirmed plans to close
hundreds of rail ticket offices across the country but, this
morning, as is usual when difficult decisions are made, the
Secretary of State was nowhere to be seen. This announcement,
driven every inch of the way by his Department—not the industry,
as the Minister claimed—has caused huge anxiety to vulnerable and
disabled passengers and rail staff up and down the country; and
how long have people been given to respond to these hugely
consequential plans? Just 21 days. This is a massive change to
the network, affecting more than 150 million rail journeys a year
and hitting elderly and disabled passengers the hardest, and they
have been given only three weeks to have their say. Why does the
Minister not just admit that this consultation has nothing to do
with taking on board their concerns? It is a rubber stamp for a
decision that he has already made, with the most vulnerable cut
out altogether.
Can the Minister give any reassurance to vulnerable passengers
who rely on staff in railway stations to help them to purchase
tickets and board trains? Why has he not published equality
impact assessments alongside these consultations? Given that he
claims the solution is modernisation and digital ticketing, does
he know how many stations do not currently have tap-in or barcode
capability? What assessment has he made of the impact on revenue
for our rail industry? Will he admit that this process is merely
a prelude to job losses that will mean far fewer staff to serve
the travelling public, and the continued managed decline of our
railways?
We know what this is really about. It is not about reforming our
railways; the Government have already ditched plans for Great
British Railways. It is not about modernisation; the Department
has already confirmed that the contactless ticketing roll-out is
limited to London and the south-east. This is about one thing and
one thing only: the Conservatives crashed the economy and now
they are asking for more self-defeating cuts on our declining
railways.
On the Minister’s watch, our rail services are already being run
into the ground, with cancellations at record highs, basic
services such as wi-fi being taken away and legislation to reform
the network on the scrapheap. Will he simply acknowledge that the
Conservatives cannot fix the railways because they broke them in
the first place?
Let me give a little more detail on the Secretary of State’s role
in the ticketing and settlement agreement, which has been in
place not just under Conservative Administrations, but under the
last Labour Administration. The Secretary of State is required to
make a determination where the train operators and the passenger
groups cannot reach an agreement. That makes it entirely right
for him not to be here to respond to the urgent question.
The hon. Lady mentioned job losses. First and foremost, this is
all about taking expert ticketing staff into the parts of the
station where currently they are not seen. If only 10% of tickets
are sold across the ticket counter, crudely, that means that 90%
of passengers are not accessing that member of staff. The idea is
to take the member of staff on to the platform to help passengers
to purchase tickets via a ticketing machine or online.
Ninety-nine per cent of tickets can be purchased in that manner,
so there is no reason why this will not be an improvement.
In the event that there are some staff who do not wish to make
the transition, of course, the train operators will need to look
at that. The sad reality is that there is an offer on the table
that would guarantee no compulsory redundancies up to December
2024, but the union leaders refused to put that offer to their
members. If there is any concern about the impact on jobs, the
National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and those
it backs financially might wish to take some responsibility for
that.
The hon. Lady talked about pay-as-you-go being rolled out only to
the south-east. The devolution deals that have been announced
will enable the roll-out of pilots by the Mayors of the West
Midlands and Manchester by the end of this year. She also talked
about wi-fi being taken away, but that is not the case either. We
are looking for each train operator to do research to show how
much the wi-fi is used, how helpful it is and what more can be
done.
Mr Speaker
I call the Chair of the Select Committee.
(Milton Keynes South)
(Con)
The Transport Committee is conducting an inquiry into accessible
transport. We have received alarming evidence that the quality
and range of assistance to vulnerable passengers has declined
markedly since the pandemic. If the redeployment of staff is to
be meaningful, it is essential that the new roles and training
are designed with the support of campaign groups for vulnerable
people. Will my hon. Friend assure me that that will happen?
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The very first
discussions I had with any groups about these changes were with
those groups that represent passengers with accessibility and
mobility issues on the railway. I told them that I am keen to
work with them to help to ensure that these proposals are
designed such that they work for each group with different
characteristics. I will be looking to meet them again to ensure
that that occurs.
At 9.30 am, the Office of Rail and Road issued its rail passenger
assistance bookings update for the latest year, which shows that
passenger assists increased by 68% compared with the previous
year. That demonstrates that more help is needed at stations for
people with accessibility needs. Again, by freeing people who are
currently under-utilised in the ticket office and putting them on
to the platforms to give help and guidance, we will help those
who need it the most. That is at the forefront of everything that
the train operators are looking to do with these proposals.
(Weaver Vale) (Lab)
In May 2021, there was a partial collapse at Northwich station—it
was the ticket office. It is being rebuilt as we speak and there
is an investigation into the collapse. I am now told by the
Minister and the Secretary of State that it is incredibly
likely—it seems a foregone conclusion—that the ticket office will
never reopen. Disabled and elderly people already struggle
accessing the station, but they will struggle even more without
staff. This is a folly. The Minister needs to think again.
It is not the ticket office but the expert people in it who
assist passengers. With these proposals, the train operators are
looking to free up people from behind the glass, often in parts
of the station that passengers do not access, to help them to use
their skills to get tickets sold at ticket machines and to advise
people on how to purchase online, so they can do that in future,
and thereafter to help them with the entire passenger journey
experience, giving them information and making them feel more
reassured.
These roll-outs have occurred across other parts of the network.
London Underground did this some years ago, and I do not believe
the current Labour Mayor of London has any plans to turn it round
because it actually works. It gives a better passenger
experience. People can either live in the past or look towards
the future. The way in which passengers transact across a whole
range of services is exactly the same, and we are keen to see the
railways modernise and thrive.
(Buckingham) (Con)
Many of my constituents write to me about overcrowding, on an
almost daily basis, particularly on Chiltern Railways. No one has
ever written to me about ticket office provision. Sympathetic as
I am to the argument for ensuring staff come out from behind the
counter to assist people directly on platforms and around the
station, how will this solve the demands of passengers, which we
are probably all seeing in our inboxes on a day-to-day basis, in
relation to rush-hour capacity and weekend capacity?
Chiltern Railways, for example, is looking to expand coverage at
High Wycombe. By redeploying staff, it can get more staff on to
the platforms. This is an example of where my hon. Friend’s
passengers will benefit because train operators can flex staff to
provide more coverage, which makes people feel more reassured.
Again, as hon. and right hon. Members look at the details and
engage with the consultation, they may find their constituents
are getting a wider range of services over a wider range of hours
than they currently receive.
(Ealing, Southall)
(Lab)
As a booking and ticket clerk on the underground back in the
1970s, trust me: I know ticketing is now easier. I still use the
buses and the underground every day, so I am familiar with the
scenes at stations in the mornings and evenings. However, more
screens and more opportunities for things to go wrong are not the
answer to every problem. Does the Minister know how many ticket
machines fail every day? These machines will make it harder, not
easier, to buy tickets. It will be harder, not easier, to secure
refunds. It will be harder, not easier, to apply for rail cards.
Who uses booking office clerks? Disabled people, the elderly and
people with language problems or difficulty understanding how to
use the ticket machine. Will he give the green light for the RDG
to change track and scrap this train wreck of a proposal?
There are 979 regulated, operated stations, but 43% of all
stations currently do not have any ticket office facility at all,
and people are still able to use those stations to access trains.
Ninety-nine per cent of transactions can be completed either
online or via a machine. In the event that a machine is not
working and there are no staff—a lot of stations, like my own,
are staffed for only half the day—a ticket to ride can be
acquired and then a ticket can be purchased at the end of a
journey. Again, these processes are already in place for those
stations with no ticket office. We have those blocks to build
on.
Mr Speaker
I do not think the Minister should plug The Beatles in that
way.
(Stoke-on-Trent South)
(Con)
Many people using stations such as Stoke-on-Trent station are
infrequent travellers, and many are vulnerable or elderly and
need support to buy a ticket. Can the Minister assure me that
there will always be someone at Stoke-on-Trent station to provide
a paper ticket to those without digital skills?
There are no plans to replace paper tickets through the train
operators’ process. Again, the aim is to ensure that ticket
office staff are freed up and on the platform to sell the tickets
and help passengers to purchase them at the machines or online.
The hope is that, thereafter, those passengers will be able to
book for themselves with confidence, without needing to use that
service. Those staff will also be available at Stoke-on-Trent to
provide other services and information: more customer services.
This is the exact way in which our rail passengers transact
across the retail and financial space, which is why it is the
right approach for the railways.
(Leeds East) (Lab)
My constituents who use Cross Gates station and people across the
country will be worried about this proposal, because closing
ticket offices is yet another example of private profit being put
before the public good in our railways. This move is really about
gutting railways of station staff, who have a big impact on
passenger accessibility and safety, especially for older and
disabled people. Does the Minister really believe that this will
make the railways more welcoming for people—or does that not
matter?
If we like seeing station staff when we access our journey and
like the fact that we will be seeing more of them because they
will be freed up, then I absolutely agree with the hon.
Gentleman. Rather than gutting the railways, this Government, and
indeed the taxpayer, have provided £41 billion of support since
the pandemic. That does not sound like gutting the railways to
me. I truly believe that we will end up with a better station
experience, one that better reflects modern usage, which is why
we are happy to support the train operators with these proposals.
As I say, 10% of transactions are purchased across the ticket
office counter—10 years ago, it was one in three. The railway is
adapting to the manner in which consumers have changed their
habits.
(Blackpool North and
Cleveleys) (Con)
Disabled, elderly and other vulnerable passengers have been
troubled by today’s announcements, but does the Minister share my
weary exasperation at the fact that people do not understand that
the best way to help disabled and elderly passengers is for staff
to come out from behind their screens to assist them in using a
ticket machine, to help them on and off trains, and to help them
to move around the station? Does he agree that for more than a
decade Ministers have sought to improve services for passengers
on the stations but have been blocked at every turn? Does he not
see an opportunity to improve accessibility on our rail network
here? It should be welcomed, not rejected.
My hon. Friend speaks with experience, having done this role
himself, and he is absolutely right in what he says. I find it
patronising to be told constantly that those who have
disabilities or those who are elderly cannot access things online
and cannot do this. That is not the case at all. At the moment,
we do not have enough products online, and, as part of this
process, I have been pushing to ensure that we have more online.
It will mean that people do not have to go to the station
beforehand to pick up a travelcard because they need a photo that
they have to take. The idea is that this move should make things
better for those who have accessibility and mobility challenges,
not just in putting more tickets online and into a place where
they can buy them from the comfort of their own home and phone,
but in making sure they have more help at the station. So I thank
him for the points he makes; he speaks with expertise.
(Bath) (LD)
The Government have overseen the largest increase in rail fees.
My constituents must deal with frequent delays and cancellations,
and now people in Bath and across Somerset face losing their
ticket offices. Bath is a world heritage site that has a large
number of visitors. Foreign visitors, in particular, find getting
through apps and ticketing machines bewildering; they depend on
the ticket offices. It more important than ever now to attract
people on to public transport, so will the Minister explain why
my constituents, and the many visitors to Bath who would
otherwise come by coach, should feel confident that train
journeys will be more reliable, cheaper and more attractive than
driving?
It is because we want to give that better customer experience, so
that more passengers are seeing more staff at the stations to
help them with information, make them feel more secure and
welcome, help them purchase a ticket, and do so in a manner where
those passengers are used to transacting across the space. I very
much hope the hon. Lady will see a better staff experience as a
result and therefore even more people will be attracted on to
rail.
(East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
My hon. Friend is a good Minister and a good friend, but I think
even he knows he has a tough gig this morning. To use his Beatles
analogy, can he not just let it be? I queue up at my ticket
office every Monday morning. There is always a queue of people
wanting route advice, people with disabilities who cannot use the
machines and people wanting refunds. I have to queue because I
have an open flexible ticket, as many Members do, that I cannot
get from the machine. Will roving members of staff be subject to
statutory regulation? At the moment, ticket office staff are the
only staff subject to statutory regulation, so I might not even
be able to find a roving member of staff to take me to the
machine, to request a ticket that the machine will not give me.
It is not going to work, is it?
The Beatles analogy rather flew past me, I am afraid. Let me
repeat the statistic to my hon. Friend: 99% of all tickets can be
purchased from a ticket machine or online. In terms of the 1% we
need to work on, I have asked the industry and officials to speed
up the process, so that more tickets can be purchased in that
manner and ticket machines can be changed so that that can occur.
I seek to work with my hon. Friend to convince him that that is
the right approach.
As the former Chair of the Transport Committee and having spent
all my time on transport since I became a Member, I would not be
making this statement if I did not believe this was the right
thing for the railway and for passengers. That matters to me
hugely. I am not a stooge; I do this because I think this is the
right thing to do, it will create a better passenger experience
and it guarantees our future in rail.
(Luton South) (Lab)
The Minister spoke of modernising passengers’ experience of
railways. Having visited, he will know that Luton station is not
fit for purpose and that the ticket office is integral to the
upper level walk-through from the town centre to High Town. Any
closure of the ticket office will pose risks to the security and
safety of staff and passengers. Crucially, can the Minister
assure me that the proposed closure of ticket offices will not be
used as a reason to delay, decrease or halt refurbishment of
stations that are in need of renovation in the future, such as
Luton station?
I have stood at the Dispatch Box and assured the hon. Lady that
the maintenance improvements for Luton station will start in
August and will be delivered by the beginning of next year. I can
give her that assurance. This programme is completely separate
and does not have any knock-on effects regarding the Access for
All programme, through which 400 stations will have been given
step-free access by next year.
As part of the process for the programme, passengers will have a
three-week period during which they can provide their views on
individual stations, so they can give their views on Luton
station. There will then be a 35-day period during which
passenger groups will assess what they have seen, and they can
work with train operators on issues with which they are
uncomfortable, perhaps for reasons of meeting accessibility
needs. Finally, the Secretary of State will determine matters, if
the two parties cannot agree. So there is a process in place to
ensure that every station meets its requirements, which they must
do from an accessibility perspective. None of that changes
through this mechanism.
(Shipley) (Con)
Ten per cent of ticket sales is still an awful lot of ticket
sales. In this process, I hope that people who choose or need to
buy their tickets from a ticket office will not suffer from the
tyranny of the majority who choose not to, and that their
interests will be properly protected throughout. Will the
Minister assure me that those people who want to pay for their
tickets using cash will still be able to do so? To me, banning
people from using cash to buy tickets would be completely
unacceptable.
I think I see the Beatles analogy, because there is a ticket to
ride process—[Interruption.] Okay, that was it. That process is
available to anybody who wishes to pay cash. For example, if my
hon. Friend looks at the Northern Trains website, he will see
that there is a whole feature explaining how cash can still be
used. The machines should take cash. In the event that they do
not, there is a process for passengers to purchase a ticket on
the train without fear of a penalty. So yes, cash can still be
used in the machines.
(Eltham) (Lab)
The Minister is clearly on Southeastern time. That is why he was
late getting the analogy. He said that just 10% of tickets are
sold over the counter, but that does not explain who are using
the ticket offices and what alternative arrangements he is going
to make for them. Southeastern has announced 40 ticket office
closures, 35 of which are in south-east London—that is 35 in
south-east London. That is an outrage. One in my constituency has
closed, but all the ones around my constituency are closing as
well. What will he do to ensure that these people not only keep
their jobs once they are moved out from behind the glass, but are
not moved from being redeployed to redundancy? And what will he
do about the 10% who rely on ticket offices?
I say respectfully to the hon. Member that Southeastern has had
its best performance in six years. He stood in this place in
January rightly saying that changes in the December timetable had
led to higher cancellation rates. Those rates have gone down from
13% to 1.6%. Southeastern was one of the best operators in terms
of performance. That was all down to the staff, but never has he
stood up to thank the staff for turning things around and working
so hard. He should not think they are his friends when they have
to listen to him going on and giving misinformation about the
situation. He has also got Southeastern’s consultation wrong.
Southeastern is doing its part in stages. The first part is on
the Metro, so it is London TravelWatch that will deal with the
responses. It will then roll out the changes to the rest of the
network. He knows that, because it was on an email sent to
him.
(Bromley and Chislehurst)
(Con)
I pay tribute to and thank people such as Vinnie at Chislehurst
station who was actually very busy when I came through this
morning to get my rather late running Southeastern train—but we
will leave that on one side. Does the Minister accept that 21
days is a very short period for such an important consultation?
Secondly, one of the stations named—Sundridge Park—does not have
step-free access to both platforms. It is staff currently in the
ticket office who help people get on the trains: they put up the
ramps and help passengers to negotiate the steps. Will he give an
undertaking that no staff will be removed until cast iron
arrangements are in place for somebody to be in attendance on
those stations to assist people throughout all the hours that a
station is operating?
The changes mean that some staff may be best deployed on the
platforms, because that is where they are seeing most of the
passengers and some of them need their help. There may be other
situations where it makes more sense for that member of staff to
be near where they are currently positioned because of the design
of the station. The idea is that each station is looked at, so
that when a member of the public decides to fill in the
consultation, they will get a dropdown, which will locate the
station in which they are interested and then they can provide
their comments. The passenger groups will then look to see
whether what is proposed will work. If it does not, that is a
different matter. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that
the train operators and the passenger groups will make their
determinations on a case-by-case basis. Where things do not make
sense, those changes will not just be put through to make for a
worse experience.
(Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
The announced closure of 45 railway ticket offices across Greater
Manchester, including at Levenshulme and Gorton stations, will be
to the detriment of my constituents who depend on them. Just when
we should be encouraging travel by rail to reduce our carbon
footprint, this measure will push people away from our great
British railways. We should be trying to make train travel
easier, cheaper and more accessible, so why are the Government
acting against the interests of the public?
I re-emphasise that the aim of these measures is to redeploy
staff who are currently underutilised and who are not seeing the
passengers that they used to because passenger habits have
changed. Those staff will be freed up to work in other areas
where they can not only sell the ticket to the passenger, but
also help them with information and cater for any particular
accessibility needs on the platform. This is all about making for
a better passenger experience. All I can say to the hon. Member
is that he has the consultation and he should complete it. He
will find that things such as this happen in all walks of life
and in train stations as well. Manchester has looked at using
ticketless travel. Tyne & Wear Metro has just done this and
London Underground has done it for years. It actually works and
it gives a better passenger experience and that is what I am
determined to see the train operators deliver through this
change.
(Colne Valley) (Con)
I have huge concerns about these plans. As the Minister knows, my
hard-pressed constituents trying to get to work, college or
university from Marsden or Slaithwaite stations and transiting
through Huddersfield still face huge disruption on
the Transpennine route.
When the computer says no, does he not agree that the best way
for them to get advice on ticketing, refunds, alternative routes
and when the next train is coming is by speaking to fully trained
staff in ticket offices?
If I give my station as an example, we have one member of staff,
who is in a ticket office. Most people already have their
tickets, for the reasons I have given; only one in 10 buy them
from the ticket office. They access the platform through a gate
and do not see any members of staff. If there are delays and
problems, it is better for passengers to be alongside the member
of staff on the platform to get that information, rather than
trying to find them behind glass.
(Barnsley Central) (Lab)
There is a problem with the Minister’s point about looking to the
future. Back in 2021, Transport for the North, of which I was a
board member at the time, was forced to abandon its integrated
smart ticketing programme after the Government pulled the
funding. I am sure the Minister will remember that from his time
on the Select Committee. That work would have helped to digitise
transport and create multi-modal, multi-operator pay-as-you-go
travel on rail, light rail and bus. We thought it was a deeply
flawed decision at the time, and recent events have shown that to
be the case. Will he work with TfN and others to see whether any
of that work can be reinstated?
I have the greatest respect for the hon. Member and I will
certainly look at what more can be done. We are keen to roll out
more pay-as-you-go. There will be 400 stations by the end of the
year that will have pay-as-you-go in place, where people can tap
in and out. That tends to be the future, as we see with London
Underground. Those pilots are in place for the end of the year in
the west midlands and Manchester. I recognise that does not cover
the area he mentions, and I am happy to work with him to see what
more can be done.
Coming back to London Underground, this system has been in place
for some years. London Underground does not have staff behind
ticket office counters, and I believe it works well. It has freed
those staff to come out into the station area as a whole, where
they can give much better advice and understanding to passengers.
It works really well, and that is why, I believe, no Labour Mayor
has asked for it to be reinstated.
Sir (South Swindon) (Con)
Residents in Swindon had a taste of things to come yesterday,
when the ticket office was closed and people were queueing out of
the door to use the wholly inadequate machines at the station.
The wi-fi was unreliable as well. If we are to proceed with this
significant change, the technology available to customers must be
significantly better and we need to avoid a situation where
elderly customers who come to pick up an advance ticket have
nobody to help them. Will the Minister do everything he can,
working with the rail authorities, to ensure that residents do
not face—to quote the Beatles again—a “Magical Mystery Tour” when
they come to Swindon station?
I will certainly do so, with my right hon. and learned Friend,
and I will share a bit of experience that led me to want more in
this direction. I need to get a weekly travel card, but I could
not get it online because it was not available. I went to the
station but did not have a photo with me. I asked, “Why is it the
case that we still need a photo when that weekly travel card is
less than an Avanti single?” I was told, “That’s the way it has
been on the railway for 40 years. That’s why we do it.” That is
not good enough. I have mobility, so I can walk up to Charing
Cross to make that transaction —or not make it—and then leave,
but for others who do not, it does not work for them at all. I
can give him the assurance that alongside this programme is a
strong exercise to make all products accessible from machines and
online; 99% are already accessible, but we need to get the full
suite of products so that people do not have to queue in the
manner he has just described.
(East Lothian) (Alba)
Although these station office closures are in England, they have
implications for Scottish passengers. Many in my constituency,
myself included—never mind those in the Borders and elsewhere in
southern Scotland—access services through stations in northern
England, in Berwick and elsewhere. That is not just a matter of
choice, but often a matter of necessity; it is required because
of the pan-UK services timetabling from LNER, TPE or
CrossCountry, all of which are signed off by the DFT. What
discussions are taking place with the Scottish Government or with
Scottish passenger representatives to ensure that the rights of
those north of the border who are impacted by this change will be
protected?
I will be looking to speak to the Scottish Executive. In
Scotland, similar proposals have, as I understand it, been rolled
out to a number of ticket stations by ScotRail. I want to assess
whether that was a mandate from the Executive. I will certainly
be having a chat with them to see what lessons can be learned,
given that Scotland appears to have gone before England in that
regard.
Mr (South West Hertfordshire)
(Con)
May I take this opportunity to welcome the extension of
contactless payments to Berkhamsted and Tring in South West
Hertfordshire? I declare an interest as a local commuter from one
of those stations. Although this initiative on rail ticket
offices will, in my eyes, help more travellers, can my hon.
Friend reassure the House that additional support will remain for
those who require help, such as the elderly and the disabled?
Yes, I can. I thank my hon. Friend for his points. I know that he
has busy stations and will want to ensure that his constituents
are looked after. The very first meeting that I had when we were
looking at the train operators’ proposals was with disability and
access groups and age concern groups. I wanted to work with
them—I still do—to find out what individual characteristics of
the design may work for some but not for others. I can give him
the assurance that we will continue to support those who have the
greatest vulnerabilities. I firmly believe that taking people out
from behind glass and putting them into areas where they can be
best accessed will mean that they will be able to give passengers
the greatest help, making for a better rail experience.
(Gateshead) (Lab)
The Minister says that he has engaged with relevant disabled
people’s organisations, but there has been widespread opposition
to ticket office closures from such organisations, including
Disability Rights UK, the National Federation of the Blind,
Transport for All, Royal National Institute of Blind People,
Royal National Institute for Deaf People, Guide Dogs and Scope.
The Minister thinks that taking expert staff out of station
ticket offices and putting them on the platform will help people,
but how will people know which member of staff to go to for the
help they need? A ticket office means that people know where to
go to get that help. If those staff are to be redeployed, there
will not be a single redundancy, will there, Minister? I have a
funny feeling that these proposals will go down not like a yellow
submarine but like a lead balloon.
I have stated the position with regard to redundancies. A deal is
on the table but the RMT will not give it to its members to make
a determination. It included a commitment to no compulsory
redundancies until December 2024. It is for the RMT to decide
whether it wishes to get that protection in place. I will say the
same thing to the hon. Member that I have said previously: I have
worked with those groups; they were the first I met and are at
the forefront of my mind in ensuring that this works. From a
passenger perspective, if they want to reach out to a member of
staff for any reason, they will do so, and members of staff
will—because they are great members of staff—signpost them to
somebody else. All members of staff must have the requisite
training, and they do. I have great faith in our railway
workforce to continue looking after passengers. I believe that
these changes will bring more benefits in that regard.
(Darlington) (Con)
I thank the Minister for meeting me yesterday to discuss the
proposed closure of Darlington’s booking office. I also met David
Horne yesterday afternoon to discuss that issue. I remain deeply
concerned that our mainline station, which is currently receiving
£139 million of expansion investment, will be left without a
booking office. The elderly, disabled and vulnerable rely on help
from our ticket offices, and if a station has barriers, that help
needs to be in front of those barriers, not behind them. Ticket
machines and apps have cut-off times, making purchases impossible
in the minutes running up to a train leaving. Will my hon. Friend
look into that problem? Will he assure the House that there is
proper consultation, and that some ticket offices can be saved?
Will he make it clear that representations can be made by letter
and not just by email?
Yes; the way in which the ticketing and settlement agreement
process works means that anyone can access it online, but they
can also write. Details will be available at stations, and indeed
online, explaining how people can write through to make their
points about their stations.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for meeting me and for doing so
in a constructive manner whereby he was able to give me examples
of his concerns, including tickets not being available within 15
minutes of travel. I have taken that point away because it forms
part of the catalogue of changes that I want to see—the remaining
1% of tickets that cannot be purchased for that reason should be
reduced towards 0%. I invite all right hon. and hon. Members who
can give other examples to get in contact with me as well,
because I will take those problems away and look at getting them
fixed.
(Cardiff West) (Lab)
The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham () was right: sometimes it is just too complicated to
purchase a ticket without using a ticket office. I recently had
that experience, and buying my ticket from the ticket office was
£50 cheaper than if I had purchased it from the machine. I am
afraid that the Beatles analogy he started is right: he’s got a
ticket to ride, and he don’t care.
I was not even aware that I had started a Beatles analogy.
Actually, this is more important than joking about music; this is
about reassuring passengers that we can deliver a better
experience but also an experience that they are very familiar
with, in terms of the other transactions they make across the
retail space. More and more people are doing that online, and
they start doing it online by being taught how to do it. The idea
is that ticketing staff who are currently behind glass, not
seeing those passengers, will help to deliver that and ensure
that those passengers have a better experience and do not need to
queue up next time, because they can do it in a seamless manner.
Where that operation does not exist because of the machine, we
are looking to upgrade. I will take any examples he has, to
ensure that passengers get the best price but can do it online or
via a machine.
(Kettering) (Con)
Staff at Kettering railway station are superb; they are friendly,
polite, efficient and dedicated to simply outstanding customer
service. Given that Kettering is one of the stations potentially
affected, will the Rail Minister encourage rail passengers in
Kettering to take part in the public consultation promoted by
East Midlands Railway? Can he confirm that if the changes go
through, a passenger who turns up at Kettering railway station
with cash to buy a ticket will be able to do so?
Yes, I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that cash purchases
would remain across the network. If there is a machine that is
not working for cash, passengers can enter the train, safe in the
knowledge that they can then purchase their ticket on the train
or at the end of their journey. There are a number of stations
that are not part of the current consultation, and they will tend
to be the end point where passengers will find a busier station.
I can absolutely give him that assurance.
My hon. Friend mentioned the staff. We are looking at the ticket
office as a place that people are not accessing any more, but the
ticketing staff are brilliant. All we want to do is utilise them
more, so that they can see more people and use their expertise.
Passengers want their ticket office staff to be more accessible,
so that they can gain that expertise, and that is exactly why we
want to put them in the places where the passengers are.
(Kingston upon Hull North)
(Lab)
I am a bit worried. The Minister keeps saying that staff are not
utilised and that people are not accessing ticket offices. I can
tell him that in Hull last year, nearly 180,000 tickets were sold
from the ticket office—that is one ticket every 1.6 minutes. We
have gone through years of bad management with Transpennine at Hull
Paragon station. This looks like another downgrading of
facilities for passengers. We have heard about the effect it will
have on the elderly, the disabled and the vulnerable. Can the
Minister just for once put the travelling public first?
I am putting the travelling public first when I make these
points. What the right hon. Lady and others cannot deny, despite
saying it cannot be believed, is that 10 years ago one in three
tickets was sold across the ticket office counter, because people
were not purchasing as much online or through machines. Now it is
10%. That demonstrates that ticket office staff are not being
utilised fully. We want to utilise them in a better manner.
Redeploying staff where they are not as busy as they were and
could be better utilised and have a more rewarding job is what
happens across the retail sector. The railways should be no
different.
(Southend West) (Con)
Anyone who has experienced the long queues from the machines and
the ticket office at my local train station of
Leigh-on-Sea—sometimes it goes out of the office and around the
block—on a Monday morning, and sometimes on a Saturday, will know
why I have been campaigning for contactless ticketing to be
extended to Leigh-on-Sea and Chalkwell stations ever since I
arrived in this place. As such, I am personally delighted;
however, innovation must never be used as an excuse to exclude
any of my constituents or deliver a worse service. The blind and
partially sighted, such as the wonderful Jill Allen-King OBE,
cannot access the touchscreen ticket machines and need a person
to help them buy that ticket, but that person does not need to be
behind glass. Can the Minister assure me that there will always
be somebody available at Leigh-on-Sea and Chalkwell ticket
stations to help the blind and partially sighted, the elderly,
and anyone else who needs help?
Yes—any currently staffed station will not become unstaffed as a
result of these changes. As I have said, 43% of stations do not
have ticket office staff, but if the stations that my hon. Friend
has mentioned are currently staffed, they will not become
unstaffed.
My hon. Friend referenced guide dogs. I am very grateful for the
meeting I had with the Guide Dogs team, because we know that when
it comes to mobility and accessibility issues, what may work for
some does not work for everyone. Sight loss is a particular
example of that, so I am very keen to continue to work with Guide
Dogs to reassure my hon. Friend’s constituents that they will
always get the help they need at her local stations.
(Stockport) (Lab)
I have several rail ticket offices in my constituency: Stockport,
Heaton Chapel and Brinnington. The Minister will know, because I
have raised it with him frequently, that Heaton Chapel and
Brinnington do not have disabled access, so I am not convinced by
the notion that this Government are looking to deliver more for
passengers, and I do not think my constituents are convinced
either. The ticket offices at all three of those
stations—Stockport, Brinnington and Heaton Chapel—seem to be
earmarked for closure, and the people who work in those ticket
offices will be worried. Some 240,000 people work on the railway;
they will be worried that the Government are running the industry
into the ground, so I urge the Minister to rethink this proposal.
Twenty-one days is an absolutely outrageous period of time for a
consultation.
Again, I point to the accessibility stats. There was a 68%
increase in the number of passengers who needed assistance at
stations, so it surely makes sense to free up people who are
working behind glass and are unable to provide that
assistance—people who may not be as utilised, because fewer
passengers are purchasing tickets in that manner. Those people
can then go and assist the passengers who need that help the
most, which is at the forefront of these changes.
(Gillingham and Rainham)
(Con)
I very much welcome the announcement that Gillingham and Rainham
ticket offices will be kept open, and I pay tribute to the
fantastic staff in Gillingham and Rainham. Across the board,
constituents have raised with me the needs of an ageing
population and the elderly. I accept the need for innovation and
adaption, but whether it is banking or seeking repeat
prescriptions, services are going online, and the elderly are
finding it difficult to access face-to-face services. Regarding
transport and getting advice and support at public train
stations, can the Minister please ensure that face-to-face
provision is always available for our elderly residents?
Yes. I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I hope that these
changes will lead to more face-to-face interaction, because those
who work on the railway and provide such brilliant help,
information and reassurance for passengers will be more likely to
be in the places where those passengers are located. Southeastern
is doing its consultation in stages—the current part is for the
metro side of Southeastern, after which it will be rolled out
further—but I can give my hon. Friend that assurance.
(Ellesmere Port and Neston)
(Lab)
My constituents and I are getting a bit fed up of everything
being pushed online, because as we have heard today, it does not
work for everyone. However, I want to ask the Minister what he is
going to do to help operators deal with this change. Merseyrail,
for example, does not accept tickets on phones, and there have
been plenty of examples of people who bought through tickets
online being fined because they have not been able to produce a
physical ticket. Is the Minister going to do an assessment of
operators’ capacity to deal with this issue and give them some
financial support to make that change?
We will certainly be working with the train operators to ensure
that passengers are not inconvenienced. As I mentioned, 43% of
stations do not have ticket offices right now, and people still
purchase their tickets and get on board. However, if members of
the public are not able to purchase a ticket for whatever reason,
including in stations that do not have a ticket office—perhaps
because the machine is not operating—there will be a means to
ensure that they are not inconvenienced. Obviously, the changes
could be rolled out further, so I will make sure that train
operators are fully geared towards that end, and that passengers
are not inconvenienced in the manner that the hon. Gentleman has
described. I give him that assurance.
(Keighley) (Con)
Of course, it is always healthy to carry out a review to make
positive change, but I have to say that I am deeply concerned to
hear that Northern is considering closing the ticket offices in
Keighley and Ilkley. I am yet to be convinced that these changes
will have a positive impact on disabled passengers, elderly
passengers, those with accessibility issues and of course those
who want to carry out more complex transactions. One in six
people carry out such transactions at those two stations—higher
than the national average. Will the Minister meet me so that I
can express my concerns, but will he also reiterate to the House
that this is a consultation and that there is no done deal, and
urge people to comment and give their views to the
consultation?
I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. I would certainly be
delighted to meet him and any other hon. and right hon. Members
who wish to meet me to discuss this issue. Again, let me set out
the process, which has been triggered by the train operators
setting out their plans. There is a period of time— 21 days—for
members of the public to respond. There is then a 35-day period
for the transport groups, London TravelWatch and Transport Focus,
to assess what is being said at each station. If they are not
convinced, they will work with the train operator, and if that
mechanism cannot reach an agreement on these matters, it will go
to its ultimate stage, which is with the Secretary of State.
(Edinburgh West) (LD)
Many Members have mentioned the impact on those with
accessibility problems, and I would urge the Minister to take
that into account. For my constituents in Edinburgh West, the
closures announced by LNER, CrossCountry, Avanti West Coast
and Transpennine all affect
stations on the main line route. Can the Minister tell us how he
is going to address the perception, which is growing, that people
are not being encouraged on to public transport, and that
accessibility to the south of the United Kingdom from Scotland,
particularly from Edinburgh, is being undermined?
As part of this process, a number of stations will not be
included. They tend to be bigger hub stations, as we call them,
so Edinburgh is not included in that regard. I may be in danger
of repeating myself, but the reason I sat down on the very first
day this came up with those who represent disability and
accessibility groups is that I was concerned they would feel that
such a change may not be a positive for them. I wanted to work
with them to understand how we can make this change positive, and
how we can deploy more staff into the spaces where they will be
able to access them more than they can right now. I continue to
work with those groups, and I give the hon. Member the assurance
that that process will remain. Of course, after the consultation
and at the end point, all the current accessibility requirements
will have to be met under these proposals, as they are under the
existing set-up.
(Eastbourne) (Con)
First, I absolutely understand and respect what my hon. Friend
and next-door neighbour is looking to achieve through these
innovations, but he will not be surprised that I have already had
a deluge of concerned constituents get in touch who are feeling
that they are being designed out and are set to be
disenfranchised. This follows hard on the change to car parking
at the station, which now requires a specific app.
I have already had assurance from Southern that there will be
assistance for passengers at Eastbourne from the first train to
the last train. Under the proposed changes, there are longer
ticket assistance hours than ticket office hours, so at face
value this may represent an improvement and an extension of
support. However, I can only imagine the complex and quite
convoluted conversations at ticket machines that will have to
take place about journey planning, and the long line of other
passengers waiting to access a service with which they are
super-fluent. The consultation is for 21 days, which is a very
short period of time. I intend to make a significant contribution
to that on behalf of the very many people who will not know how
or will not feel empowered to do so. Will the Minister encourage
operators to accept that?
Mr Speaker
Order. Can I just say that it might be worth putting in for an
Adjournment debate? The question must be shorter.
I can give my hon. Friend and neighbour that assurance. Again, I
would encourage hon. Members to look at the train operators in
their area to see what the plans would mean. A number of train
operators have decided to take a number of people from behind the
glass counters, who are all working the same hours, and flex
their hours—they have the ability to do so—which means there will
be wider coverage over the day. One plan I was particularly
interested to see was with late-night coverage where there is no
such coverage at the moment; these changes will actually provide
that coverage. It is coverage not just to sell a ticket on the
platform and provide help and guidance, but to provide safety
reassurance, an information point and the greeting that people
want if they are to be able to use their railway. That is why I
am a passionate advocate of these changes, and I believe they
will make for a better experience for the passenger over a longer
period of the day.
(Erith and Thamesmead)
(Lab)
The Minister may remember our meeting on 1 December with
Southeastern. In that meeting, I asked whether there were any
plans to close any ticket offices. The response from Southeastern
was no. Was the Minister privy to any conversations or plans
regarding ticket office closures before our meeting?
I will look back on our notes from that meeting and work out what
was said. The train operators have put forward these proposals
because they are required to look at their coverage and at how
they need to adapt and modernise to give a better passenger
experience. I have of course had discussions with them, and one
of the examples that I have given over the course of the past
three quarters of an hour is that of ensuring that more ticket
options are put online and on to machines. I also made sure that
my first discussions were with accessibility groups, because I
wanted them to be able to give me their views. Yes, I have been
involved in the process, and I will look back at the minutes from
our meeting in December, assess what was said and write back to
her.
Mr Speaker
Let us go to the centre of the railways: Strangford.
(Strangford) (DUP)
Strangford is the centre of the world, Mr Speaker.
Is the Minister aware that not everyone is completely computer
literate or has access to a printer? For example, my 92-year-old
mother has the capacity to go to the train station for a day
trip, but she absolutely cannot go online because she is a cash
person. Where in this decision is the consideration of people
such as my mother and others of that generation? Surely customer
care and satisfaction has to be key to any decision.
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: customer care is at the
forefront of this change. At the moment, a customer can go to a
station and purchase a ticket from an office behind the glass,
but only 10% of tickets are purchased in that manner. That means
that other members of the public often do not receive any help or
journey assistance in other parts of the station and do not get
the full benefit of that member of staff. These changes are all
about giving passengers a service. This is not just about buying
tickets, with a member of staff with them at the machine showing
passengers what to do, but about help in all other regards.
I have a great passion for the railways. I love this job, and I
love the railways. All the staff who work on them do an amazing
job. That is why I am spending three weeks of my summer visiting
all parts of the system to learn more, assess more and reassure
more. I recognise Members’ concerns, and I hope I have answered
as many questions as I can. For those who want to meet me because
they want to understand more, I am happy to do that, because I
want every hon. Member to have everything they need to ensure
that this change is positive for our passengers.
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