Scottish Parliament: Topical Question Time: Deposit return Scheme - Jun 6

1. Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it plans to commence its Deposit return scheme on 1 March 2024. (S6T-01421)

The Minister for Green Skills, Circular Economy and Biodiversity (Lorna Slater)

Due to the United Kingdom Government’s 11th-hour intervention to change the Scotland’s Deposit return scheme—both to remove glass from it and to add significant uncertainty around essential parts of it, such as the 20p deposit and the costs to producers and fees for retailers—it is clear that the scope and form of the scheme that this Parliament passed cannot go ahead as currently planned.

We are urgently establishing—we have been doing this over the past 10 days—the extent to which there is a way forward for a modified scheme in relation to its scope, terms and timescales. Crucially, that depends on whether the UK Government can provide timely, stable and reliable assurances on basic operational matters, such as trading standards, the 20p deposit and producer fees. It also depends on the extent to which there is industry support for an alternative scheme.

I am writing to the UK Government today to ask for an urgent discussion about those conditions. I will update Parliament at the earliest opportunity on the outcomes of those actions and what they mean for Scotland’s Deposit return scheme.

Liam Kerr

I am not sure that members heard a specific answer on whether the scheme will commence on 1 March 2024.

In any event, the minister mentioned glass. Circularity Scotland Limited—the scheme administrator—says that the scheme is viable to launch without the inclusion of glass, but the First Minister claims that removing glass would threaten the viability of the scheme. They cannot both be right, so who does not know what they are talking about: the First Minister or CSL?

Lorna Slater

The Scottish Conservatives are on very shoogly ground when discussing glass, given that Rishi Sunak, Alister Jack and their own Douglas Ross stood on a manifesto to put in place a Deposit return scheme including glass. The UK Tories are not only undermining our scheme in relation to glass; it looks as though they are doing the same thing to Wales, too.

Glass is one of the three main materials that are used to make single-use drinks containers, and it accounts for more than a quarter of such containers. It does not make as much of a business case to run a system without glass. That would undermine the fundamental point of Deposit return, which relates to the environmental and litter benefits. Even the UK Government’s analysis of Deposit return schemes across the UK shows that social benefits relating to reduced litter, emissions saved and the economy are increased by 64 per cent when glass is included. It is England that is the outlier by removing glass from a bottle return scheme.

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

There is much interest in the subject, so I would be grateful for concise questions and responses.

Liam Kerr

We did not hear much in that response. The implication is that the minister thinks that CSL does not know what it is talking about in relation to glass.

However, that answer was instructive because, over the past week, the Scottish National Party-Green coalition has gone from mess to meltdown on Deposit return. It has threatened to scrap the scheme, tried to pick a fight with the UK Government and been caught misrepresenting one of Scotland’s leading drinks producers. Why does the minister think that division and conflict will be more productive than collaboration and co-operation in rescuing her scheme?

Lorna Slater

I must highlight to Liam Kerr and the rest of the chamber some of the misrepresentations that we have heard, particularly from the Secretary of State for Scotland. His accusation that glass would be used for aggregate is completely untrue and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how our Deposit return scheme would operate and, indeed, how our wider recycling legislation operates. Alister Jack’s misrepresentation in relation to the process that has been agreed and to adherence to common frameworks, as well as the lack of timeliness on decisions on VAT and trading standards, shows that the UK Government is not acting in good faith to support Scotland’s scheme, going forward. In fact, it is doing everything possible to undermine the scheme.

Circularity Scotland and I are looking at how we can take forward an alternative scheme in Scotland, because the scheme that this Parliament passed has been shot down by Westminster. We are looking at an alternative scheme, and I will report back to Parliament as soon as I can on what that alternative might be.

Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)

The UK Government has shown nothing but contempt for the Scottish Parliament in using the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 to, in effect, rewrite devolved laws. As Professor Aileen McHarg has suggested, there is nothing in the 2020 act that makes Alister Jack the arbiter of what goes forward. This should have been done through the common frameworks. How much investment from Scottish business has been lost as a result of the UK Government’s misguided intervention and U-turn?

Lorna Slater

Hundreds of millions of pounds of investment from a range of businesses to prepare for the launch of the Deposit return scheme are now at risk as a result of the UK Government’s 11th-hour intervention. The exact investment figures are held by industry, but published estimates suggest that retailers will invest up to £200 million and that producers have invested about £100 million in the scheme. Alongside that, Circularity Scotland contractors such as Biffa will have invested significant sums—some estimate that that investment will be £80 million.

Mercedes Villalba (North East Scotland) (Lab)

The minister will be aware that Sight Scotland has concerns about how blind and partially sighted people will be able to access and take part in the Deposit return scheme. Just last week, Sight Scotland received a letter from the minister’s officials, but it failed to address the issues that the organisation has raised. Will the minister take the concerns of Sight Scotland and others seriously and use the delay to the Deposit return scheme to ensure that blind and partially sighted people can take part in the scheme?

Lorna Slater

Any Deposit return scheme must of course be accessible to every person in Scotland, and that is true no matter whether people have disabilities or other impediments that make that more of a challenge. Particularly for non-sighted people or people who have difficulty with sight, the design of reverse vending machines absolutely is intended to take that into account. If a scheme is to proceed, the intention is to work with retailers and handlers to understand how they can best support customers who use manual return points. I refer the member to the equalities assessment that was undertaken as part of the Deposit return scheme legislation.

Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con)

The minister and the First Minister have wreaked havoc on the Deposit return scheme. Can the minister tell us today when the missing gateway review will be published?

Lorna Slater

A series of independent gateway reviews have been undertaken throughout the design of the Deposit return scheme, with the most recent having been carried out in March. The Scottish Government is considering carefully the recommendations from that review and will share those recommendations and its response with the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee soon. Gateway review teams normally speak to between 12 and 15 interviewees. For this latest review, reviewers spoke to 45 people, which included CSL and a range of producers, retailers, wholesalers and hospitality representatives.

Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)

This is a shambles that has been years in the making. All last week and over the weekend, we heard threats from the Scottish Government that, if the UK Government did not back down, DRS would be dead in the water. It now appears that the Scottish Government has backed down. Does the minister believe that that will add to the confusion and the loss of confidence in the proposals that the Government is trying to bring forward?

Lorna Slater

Liam McArthur will appreciate that the UK Government has now blocked the scheme that was passed by the Scottish Parliament. The devolved powers of this Parliament were used in 2020 to legislate for a Deposit return scheme. That scheme included glass and clearly set a 20p deposit, and there was guidance to industry on how the scheme was to be interpreted.

The UK Government has used—some might say abused—the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 to impose changes on this devolved matter at a very late stage in development of the Deposit returnscheme. We now have to properly assess those changes. Our scheme, as passed by the Scottish Parliament, cannot go forward—we know that that is the case. Can an alternative scheme be made from the pieces that the UK Government has left us? That is what we are rapidly assessing with business stakeholders and Circularity Scotland.

John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)

As I understand it, in Wales, Mark Drakeford is taking a firm line and arguing that glass should be included in the scheme there. Can the minister explain why Scottish Labour is being so weak on the matter?

Lorna Slater

Indeed—

The Presiding Officer

The answer should be on matters for which the minister has general responsibility.

Minister, you can address the question to the extent that you address matters for which the Scottish Government has general responsibility.

Lorna Slater

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Labour used to be a champion of devolution as an opportunity to address a democratic void in Scotland and to ensure that Scotland could strike out on its own path if the Scottish Parliament, elected by the people of Scotland, chose to do so. That is exactly what Labour in Wales is doing by designing its own DRS to include glass because it, too, understands the environmental and economic benefits of doing so.

Wales is at an earlier stage than we are on Deposit return. It has not yet passed its regulations and, once it comes to drafting its regs and doing the detailed design, Wales will very likely face the same barriers that we are now dealing with.

Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)

What would be the impact on glass recycling, including non-scheme articles, of rolling out separate kerbside glass collection to councils that currently do not have that service?

Lorna Slater

Brian Whittle will appreciate that we are assessing the substantial change to the Deposit return scheme that has been imposed on us by the UK Government under which it cannot include glass. We are trying to figure out whether the scheme is viable and can go forward in Scotland, and that includes looking at the impact on recycling rates.

We know that kerbside recycling rates tend to get glass up to only about 63 per cent; Deposit return can get glass recycling up to 90 per cent. That means a substantial reduction in broken glass litter and in carbon emissions. That is how we know that including glass is a good idea, but now that we cannot include glass in our scheme we will have to undertake a detailed assessment.

Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab)

After the delays and grandstanding between the UK and Scottish Governments, we deserve better than this. To get a viable DRS, the UK and the Scottish Governments should get around the table as quickly as possible, especially given that Circularity Scotland said today that the scheme could go ahead.

Over the past two weeks, I have asked the minister repeatedly whether she has explored all the options. The minister will be aware that, over the weekend, I wrote to her urging her to meet GS1 UK, which is the only company in the UK that can provide globally recognised barcodes. The minister has failed to meet GS1 UK, which is a not-for-profit company that has a solution that could, at least, reduce the burdens on industry in delivering the scheme, and, at most, change the conversation on the internal market exemption.

Will the minister commit to exploring every solution and to meet GS1 UK immediately, so that we can get a scheme that works?

Lorna Slater

I have reassured the member repeatedly that we have looked at every possible option for carrying forward the scheme as passed by the Scottish Parliament. We know that that is not possible, due to the limited exclusion passed under the Internal Market Act 2020. Today, I will write to the secretary of state to ask for an urgent meeting tomorrow to deal with the operational matters and see whether we can get the UK Government around the table to discuss those things. I am not hopeful, given its track record: how long it took to make a decision on VAT, the fact that it still has not made a decision on trading standards and the fact that it has changed its mind very late in the day both on glass and on whether devolved nations should be able to set their own scope.

I also remind the member that barcodes are not part of the regulations passed by the Scottish Parliament and are therefore not part of the legislation that we can consider here. Because it has different powers, the UK Government may include barcodes in its scheme, but we do not know that because it has not passed the regulations yet. Therefore, it would not really help anything to discuss that with a barcode manufacturer.

Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)

Can the minister confirm that she is drawing up a modified scheme without glass and does she think that that modified scheme could be up and running by March next year?

Lorna Slater

Graham Simpson will appreciate that removal of glass is a substantial change. The question that he asks is what I am working through right now. The Conservatives are betraying their own commitments on DRS because they see undermining the Scottish Parliament as more important.

To decide whether we can go ahead with an alternate scheme without glass is a very substantial decision, so the First Minister and I will meet industry representatives tomorrow and I am attempting to get a meeting with the UK Government urgently to decide whether it is feasible for us to go forward with that.

Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)

Last week, Labour’s First Minister of Wales, Mark Drakeford, criticised the UK Government for reneging on a 2019 agreement that allowed Scotland and Wales to establish our own Deposit return schemes that include glass. Westminster’s Tory Government wants Wales and Scotland to wait for an English scheme, but what assurances has the minister had that there will actually be a DRS in England? When will it be up and running and will the rules for interoperability be?

Lorna Slater

Mark Ruskell will appreciate that I am unable to answer that question because the UK Government has not passed its regulations. It gives a date of 2025, but we have not seen any sort of critical pathway to making that decision. The UK Government has not got a scheme administrator in place and it has not even determined whether the deposit will be 20p to match ours, so it cannot even answer basic questions about interoperability. It says that we have to adhere to its rules but it has not written the rules yet. Will the deposit be 20p? Will the producer fees change? We cannot answer that because the UK Government has taken away our power to do so.