The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire (Chris Philp) With
permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on legislative
proposals to tackle the use of machetes and other large knives in
crime. Knife crime causes misery and fear in our communities, which
is why over many years this Government have taken concerted action
to tackle it. We are pursuing a twin-track approach, combining
tough enforcement with prevention and intervention as we
relentlessly bear down on...Request free
trial
The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire ()
With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on
legislative proposals to tackle the use of machetes and other
large knives in crime.
Knife crime causes misery and fear in our communities, which is
why over many years this Government have taken concerted action
to tackle it. We are pursuing a twin-track approach, combining
tough enforcement with prevention and intervention as we
relentlessly bear down on violent crime, and we are supporting
the police every step of the way in that effort. We have given
forces more powers and more resources to go after criminals and
take knives and dangerous weapons off our streets, and we have
legislated over time to tighten the law.
The results are clear to see. Since 2019, the police have removed
over 90,000 knives and dangerous weapons through stop and search,
surrender programmes and other targeted police action. Violence,
as measured by the crime survey, is down by 38% since 2010, and
hospital admissions as a result of injuries caused by a bladed
article and where the victim is below the age of 25 are down by
24% since 2019. This is really important work: every knife or
weapon taken off the streets has the potential to save lives. We
have also invested significantly in violence reduction units to
bring together agencies to tackle the drivers of serious violence
at a local level. We have introduced Grip—hotspot policing to
tackle enforcement in areas with particular problems—and have
established the £200 million Youth Endowment Fund to fund
innovative diversionary activities.
The combination of violence reduction units and targeted hotspot
policing has prevented an estimated 136,000 violent offences in
the first three years of funded delivery, and tomorrow we will
launch a pilot of serious violence reduction orders to give the
police an automatic right to stop and search convicted knife
offenders. Every offender issued with an SVRO will face an
increased likelihood of being stopped by the police and, if they
persist in carrying weapons, will be sent back to prison or
brought before the courts. That follows the start of the
offensive weapons homicide review pilot on 1 April, which will
see local partners work together to review the circumstances of
certain homicides where the death of a person aged over 18 is
likely to have involved the use of an offensive weapon.
Through our police uplift programme, of course, we are recruiting
thousands more officers—we will get the figures next week, but we
confidently expect those to confirm that we have record numbers
of police officers in England and Wales. That is something that I
am sure Members across the House will welcome very strongly,
along with the 38% reduction in violence since 2010.
However, as the public would expect, we keep our approach under
constant review, and where improvements can be made, we will not
hesitate to act. It is in that context that we have today
launched a seven-week consultation on new proposals to go even
further to tackle the use of certain machetes and other bladed
articles in crime.
The UK already has some of the strictest knife legislation in the
world, and the police already have broad powers to tackle knife
crime. Our new proposals to go even further have been developed
in co-operation with the National Police Chiefs’ Council knife
crime lead, but also in consultation with Members of this House
who have brought forward constituency cases illustrating the need
to go further.
I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for
Southend West (), who brought forward an
example of a knife that was legal that was used in an offence in
Southend. That knife will be illegal once these changes are made.
I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North
()—I see him in his place—who
also highlighted constituency cases of knife crime. Finally, my
right hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea and Fulham () raised the case of one of his
constituents, who was robbed using a machete in broad daylight on
the streets of Chelsea. I thank those Members and others for
bringing these issues to the attention of the Home Office, and it
is in response to their constructive campaigning and to the
police that we are taking even further action today.
We have identified certain types of machetes and large outdoor
knives that do not appear to have a practical use and appear to
be designed to look menacing and to be favoured by those who want
to use knives as weapons. We intend to ban those weapons, going
further than the weapons ban already introduced in the Offensive
Weapons Act 2019, particularly under section 47, with which I am
sure Opposition Members are familiar. That means it will be an
offence to import, manufacture, sell or supply any of these
weapons. We also believe that the criminal justice system should
treat carrying prohibited knives and offensive weapons in public
more seriously, to better reflect the severity of the offences,
and we are consulting on that point.
In addition, we are proposing to toughen the current penalties
for selling prohibited offensive weapons and for selling bladed
articles to under-18s. Under our proposals, the maximum penalty
for those offences would be increased to two years’ imprisonment.
We are also consulting on whether to provide the police with
additional powers to enable them to seize, retain and destroy
bladed articles of any length held in private where they are
intended for criminal use, or whether the powers should be
limited to articles of a certain length. We consider that to be a
proportionate response. When discussing it this morning in
Brixton police station with the National Police Chiefs’ Council
lead, they certainly strongly welcomed those additional
powers.
Finally, we are consulting on whether it would be appropriate to
mirror firearms legislation and introduce a separate offence of
possessing a knife or offensive weapon with intent to injure or
cause fear of violence, with a maximum penalty higher than the
current offence of straight possession. In addition to
publication on gov.uk, I will place in the Library copies of the
consultation document and the accompanying impact assessment, and
I encourage Members on both sides to respond to that.
Knife crime is a menace that has no place in society. It can
destroy families and leave lives devastated. We have shown time
and again that this Government will always put the interests of
the law-abiding majority and victims first. We have given our
police forces more officers, we have given them more powers, and
now we are seeking to go even further. We are relentlessly
focused on driving down crime, and I trust that Members on both
sides of the House will support these measures.
Mr Speaker
Order. Can I just say to the Minister that the copy of his
statement that I have does not relate to what he was saying to
the House? Some part seems to be missing.
Of the statement?
Mr Speaker
Yes, of your statement. I do not know whether you have been
ad-libbing.
There were one or two points I added in reference to Members
here, but in substance no. I am happy to try to work out what
happened afterwards.
Mr Speaker
Normally, I see a full copy. I was looking to where we had got
to, and then we picked up somewhere else. I think it is important
that we try to keep as near as possible to the script that we
expect the House to reflect on. I just make that point. I have
had it before, and it is easier, especially when the Opposition
are going to reply, if things are there. When you go off script
for a while, we do wonder what is coming next. I call the shadow
Minister.
1.13pm
(Croydon Central) (Lab)
The additional extracts were not in my copy of the statement
either. Labour supports measures to ban zombie-style knives and
machetes. Knife crime devastates lives and rips families apart,
but this is too little, too late—a smokescreen to distract from
the Government’s appalling record. Knife crime has risen across
the country by 70% since 2015, and the whole country is affected.
Since 2011, knife crime has doubled in Lincolnshire,
Hertfordshire and Derbyshire. It has trebled in Norfolk, Essex
and Sussex, and in Surrey it has risen tenfold. There are serious
problems in Swindon, Milton Keynes and Rochdale. With a serious
violence strategy that is five years out of date, the Government
do not have a plan to tackle knife crime in our towns and
suburbs.
The Offensive Weapons Act 2019 was hailed by the then Prime
Minister as the big answer to what is a national crisis, but it
has not worked. A year and a half ago, I called on the Government
to act on getting these knives off the streets entirely, but they
have done nothing. Why the delay? We have heard it all before. In
2016, the former Home Secretary pledged a ban on zombie knives.
In 2017, the next former Home Secretary pledged another ban on
zombie knives. In 2018, the then new Home Secretary pledged
another ban. In 2021, the Home Secretary after that promised yet
again to ban zombie knives. Now, déjà vu, we are promised yet
another ban. The Home Secretary says today that it cannot go on,
but it has and it is; it is going on and on. Who on earth do they
think has been in power for the past 13 years?
This is personal for me. Just last month, I sat with a grieving
mother in Rochdale, traumatised after the murder of her little
boy. I have seen the destruction that knife crime causes with my
own eyes, and it is getting worse. Total knife crime is up 11% in
the past year alone. Knife-enabled rape and knife-enabled threats
to kill are at record levels. Knife possession is up 15% on
pre-pandemic levels. The Minister said that violent crime is
down, but serious violence is up, not down, and that should be
his priority.
The proposed ban does not go far enough. It is already an offence
to sell knives to under-18s, but the Government have utterly
failed to enforce the law. Just last year, a boy was murdered in
east London with a knife bought with fake ID. After the
Minister’s changes in the consultation, will I still be able to
buy a 49-cm sword online? Only swords over 50 cm are banned. Will
I still be able to purchase the 40-inch samurai sword for £100 or
the 16-inch “Deluxe Rambo First Blood” knife for £40 that I found
this morning on knifewarehouse.co.uk? The consultation does not
seem to include any of those.
The Government are trying to legislate their way out of a problem
caused by their cuts to police—cuts that have left us with 10,000
fewer neighbourhood police and police community support officers
on our streets since 2015—and cuts to everywhere from mental
health to youth work. Does the Minister think it is okay that
adults can buy dangerous banned knives on online marketplaces
that come from abroad? There is nothing today to tackle that, and
the online harms Bill will not stop that. Does he think that tech
execs should be responsible for what is on their sites?
Apparently not, because his party opposed Labour’s plans to make
technology execs criminally responsible when they consistently
fail to remove illegal content. Does he think it is acceptable
that knife seizures have collapsed at the border? Why is the
serious violence strategy now five years out of date? Why are the
Government failing to prevent young people from being drawn into
crime in the first place, opposing Labour’s plans to outlaw the
criminal exploitation of children and cutting a billion pounds
from our youth services?
Is it any wonder that the public have lost faith in this tired
Government, who are weak on crime and weak on the causes of
crime? The next Labour Government will take action, making it our
mission to halve knife crime within 10 years. Labour is the party
of law and order now.
I certainly admire the shadow Minister’s sense of humour. Let me
pick up some of the points she made. She asked about police
numbers. As I have said, the figures that will be released on the
26th will show, I am confident, that we have more police officers
than at any time in our country’s history, including more police
officers than at any point in the time in office of the last
Labour Government.
The shadow Minister asked about crime figures. I will repeat the
point I made before: only one dataset is considered reliable by
the Office for National Statistics and that is the crime survey
of England and Wales. It shows that, since 2010, violent
offending has dropped by 38%, criminal damage is down 62%,
burglary is down 56%, robbery is down 55% and overall crime,
excluding fraud and computer misuse, is down 30%. When will the
shadow Home Secretary, who was a Minister in that Government,
apologise for the fact that crime was double the level it is now
under this Government?
The shadow Minister asked about the changes we are making today.
This Government have been progressively tightening the
legislation over the years, including the Offensive Weapons Act
2019. We have been continuously reviewing that legislation. Where
we find opportunities to make it stronger and more effective in
response to Members of the House and the police, we will take
those opportunities, and that is what we are now doing. If there
are some specific comments on the length of knives, that is
exactly what the consultation is designed to capture. I strongly
urge the shadow Minister to respond to the consultation. I look
forward to receiving the extremely considered and detailed
submission that she is no doubt working on already.
Finally, in relation to recent trends in the data, the most
reliable source of information on serious violence is hospital
admissions where the victim has received a knife wound. Over the
past three years, for victims under the age of 25, those have
reduced by 24%. There is a lot more to do, but the direction of
travel is clearly right and this Government are committed to
going even further.
(Rayleigh and Wickford)
(Con)
If I can make a non-partisan point for a moment, the whole House
knows that our late friend and colleague was murdered with a bladed
weapon, so I would like to pay tribute to his proactive
successor, my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (), for campaigning on this
issue, evidently with some success. Can the Minister assure us
that, on so-called zombie knives—many of which are now purchased
online and some of which, I understand, we can only ban because
of what is written on them, rather than what they can do—this new
legislation will materially restrict the ability, and ideally end
it, for people to buy those weapons online, either domestically
or from abroad?
My right hon. Friend makes a very good point and is right to
remind the House of our much-loved former colleague Sir David’s
tragic death at the hands of a knife-wielding attacker. He asks
two questions. First, yes, I can confirm that zombie knives that
do not have any writing on them will be covered by the proposals.
Sub-paragraph (iii) in section 47(2) of the Offensive Weapons Act
2019 has a requirement that there are threatening words on the
blade, and we have reached the conclusion that that is unduly
restrictive. It is not something that anyone, including the
Opposition, complained about at the time the Bill passed, but on
further reflection and following input from colleagues, such as
my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West, we think that that
change needs to be made, and I can confirm that it will be.
In relation to my right hon. Friend’s question, and the shadow
Minister’s question, about sales online, people directly selling
online prohibited items is obviously just straight-up illegal. In
relation to selling on marketplaces, following discussions with
colleagues in the new Department for Science, Innovation and
Technology, I have been assured that the Online Safety Bill will
cover online marketplaces when it comes to selling items like
this, so with the passage of the Online Safety Bill, the kind of
provisions he is asking for will apply.
Madam Deputy Speaker ( )
I call the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee.
(Kingston upon Hull North)
(Lab)
I know that there is widespread concern about this issue on both
sides of the House. In 2019, the Home Affairs Committee published
a report on serious youth violence, following a 70% rise in knife
crime over five years. The Home Office had failed to give the
Committee at that time any assessment of how many young people
were at risk of being involved in knife crime. The Committee
called on the Government to treat this as a social emergency and
warned them that the serious violence strategy was inadequate.
Four previous Home Secretaries have made announcements in
response to knife crime. I wonder if the Minister could set out
why he thinks those approaches have not been effective. What is
different about the approach that he has announced today and will
that be effective?
I thank the Select Committee Chair for her question. I do not
accept that the previous initiatives have been unsuccessful. I
have already pointed to the steady reduction in hospital
admissions as a result of knife wounds and the steady reduction
in violent offences, as measured by the crime survey for England
and Wales. The Government have successively tightened the law and
we are tightening it further today. We have also put more and
more resources successively into tackling the social problem that
the Select Committee Chair rightly highlights. For example, the
violence reduction units are now putting a great deal of money
into the 20 police force areas where violent crime is most
serious. The Youth Endowment Fund has £200 million to spend on
targeted, evidence-based interventions to help young people into
a better future. I have visited some of the programmes that have
been run—by Everton football club in Merseyside, to give one
example. I was in Brixton in south London earlier today, hearing
about the community work that happens there. I think the process
we are following is successively increasing resources, investing
in diversionary activities for young people and successively
strengthening the law where evidence emerges that that is
necessary. It is over time yielding results; I set out the data
at the beginning of my answer.
(Bury North) (Con)
Following a recent meeting with my local chief superintendent, he
set out that it is a matter of course for many young people in
Bury to carry a knife. I will just state that fact again: it is a
matter of course for young people to carry a knife. The excuse,
when they are stopped, is that it is for self-defence purposes.
What happens then? The police take the knife, but there is no
prosecution. The problem, and we always do this in this House, is
that we talk about words on a piece of paper. Unless the police
actually prosecute and take action against people for possession
of weapons, this problem will never be sorted out. It could be
any type of knife that you want. Does the Minister agree that we
have to have an approach from the police where there is no
nonsense and no taking a knife—people are prosecuted and put in
front of a court if they have a knife, end of story?
I agree with my hon. Friend. The laws we pass here, whether on
this topic or on any other, are only meaningful to the extent
that they are properly enforced. It is my view, as it is his,
that when the police arrest somebody in possession of a knife,
they should follow up. There should be a prosecution and, where
appropriate, there should be custody as well, or there should be
rehabilitative work, where that is appropriate, as well. So I
entirely agree with him. With the extra resources and extra
officers the police are getting, they have the bandwidth now to
do that. Our expectation across this House—on both sides—and
certainly in the Home Office is that the police do do that.
Mr (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
Knife crime is taking a devastating toll on our communities, with
young lives cut short and families torn apart and living with the
heartbreak for the rest of their lives. Last year, my constituent
Ronan Kanda was killed in a knife attack just yards from his own
front door. Ronan was only 16. He had his whole life in front of
him. His mum Pooja, his sister Nikita and his wider family miss
him every day; I spent time with the family on Friday evening.
Can I urge the Minister to bring in this ban on the sale of
machetes and similar knives as soon as possible, as one step
towards tackling knife crime and trying to ensure that fewer
families have to face the grief felt by the Kanda family over the
loss of Ronan and the many other families carrying a similar
burden of grief?
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his moving and powerful
description of the awful tragedy that has affected the family of
his constituent. The way he described that incident illustrates
powerfully to the whole House why it is so important that all of
us work to eradicate the scourge of knife crime. Yes, I can give
him the commitment he asked for: we will proceed as quickly as we
possibly can. Some of the proposals can be done in secondary
legislation. We will do that as quickly as we can following the
conclusion of the seven-week consultation—it is quite a short
consultation, because we want to get on with this. Where primary
legislation is needed, we will aim to do that as quickly as we
can in the following Session, so, yes, I can give him that
assurance.
(Southend West) (Con)
I am absolutely delighted to hear this announcement today,
because machetes and knives have been used in my constituency
with tragic consequences, quite apart from what happened to Sir
David. The devil is always in the detail. I am delighted to hear
that we are going to consider tightening up the definition of
zombie knives, which is obviously needed. I am also delighted to
hear that, once they are prohibited, their importation,
manufacture and sale will be illegal. But reckless retailers are
expert at circumventing the law and that is what has happened
here. So could I urge the Minister to consider going even further
and having a licensing scheme for machetes in this country
similar to gun licences? There are some legitimate uses for
machetes, but not many. That way, at least we could make sure we
get every machete off the streets and out of homes, and prevent
these appalling crimes and tragedies.
Can I start by paying tribute again to my hon. Friend for her
tireless and very effective campaigning on this topic? This issue
is a good example of Members of Parliament raising constituency
issues that have led to what I hope will very shortly be a change
in the law. In relation to retailers, we intend to be very strict
with retailers. The ban will apply to machetes where there is no
obvious legitimate purpose, and retailers will be committing a
criminal offence if they sell them. We should have no tolerance
at all, as she says, for any retailer who seeks to circumvent or
break the law by selling machetes that are—that will
be—banned.
(Battersea) (Lab)
Machetes and zombie knives should have been banned a long time
ago, given that the Government had committed on multiple
occasions to banning them, but 13 years of cuts to youth services
has led to a number of those services closing across the country,
including in my constituency, and it is a fact that areas
suffering from the largest cuts in spending on young people have
seen the biggest increases in knife crime. For all the talk about
prevention and intervention, why will this Government not commit
to investing in more resources for young people alongside banning
these weapons?
On the first point regarding existing legislation, certain kinds
of zombie knives were banned under the Offensive Weapons Act
2019, but as I said earlier, sub-paragraph (iii) in section 47(2)
of the Offensive Weapons Act 2019 banned only zombie knives that
have threatening writing on them, and we are now filling that gap
in response to feedback.
On the second point about youth services, I agree that prevention
is a critical part of the strategy—it is not just about
enforcement; it is about prevention as well, and that includes
providing alternatives for young people. That is why we have set
up the Youth Endowment Fund, with £200 million to fund
evidence-based activity, and it is why violence reduction units
and project Grip programmes are directing funding at the 20
police forces, including the Metropolitan police, where those
services are most desperately needed.
(Walsall North) (Con)
I pay tribute to Pete Madeley and the Express and Star newspaper
for their campaign on this issue and for articulating the
concerns of their readership. Does the Minister share my surprise
that the Labour police and crime commissioner seems to have made
little or no attempt to engage with the public in Walsall
following some dreadful knife crime recently?
I thank my hon. Friend for his tireless campaigning on this
issue, and his local paper which I know has been raising it as
well. I am sorry to hear what he says about the Labour PCC in the
west midlands. I urge all PCCs to engage with their local
communities and I am particularly shocked and concerned to hear
that the west midlands PCC is apparently considering closing down
20 police stations.
(Orkney and Shetland)
(LD)
I welcome the relative novelty of a Home Office statement,
instead of Home Office Ministers having to be brought to the
Chamber to answer an urgent question. If this statement is a
yardstick by which statements can be expected, the House will be
better served in the future than it has been in the recent
past.
The measures in the consultation are eminently sensible, and I do
not think there would be any challenge from Members in any part
of the House, but the Minister is kidding himself if he thinks
that this process is going to shift the dial at all in reducing
violent knife crime. What would make a difference is visible
police presence in our streets. It remains to be seen whether the
Government have honoured their manifesto pledge on police
numbers, but we already know that the number of police community
support officers on our streets is down by 33%; when are the
Government going to restore those numbers?
I am glad the right hon. Gentleman likes the statement and I will
try to provide further such statements in the future given that
there is clearly an appetite for them from his side of the
Chamber.
On moving the dial, there is clearly no one solution to a problem
like knife crime—there is no silver bullet; no one measure will
fix the problem in totality—but I do think that these proposals
will move the needle. I saw a knife today in Brixton police
station that is currently legal; it was a zombie knife without
lettering on it and therefore does not fall within the scope of
section 47 of the 2019 Act. It is legal today, but under these
proposals it will be illegal, meaning people cannot sell it,
market it, import it, manufacture it or even possess it in
private. I spoke to the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead
today about the totality of these measures and he was very clear
that he thinks this will make a difference. It will not solve the
problem on its own, but I think it will make a difference.
On police numbers, the figures will be unveiled at 9.30 on 26
April—next Wednesday—so the right hon. Gentleman will have to
bear with me until then. However, I am very confident, as I have
said once or twice already, that we will have record numbers of
officers—more than we have ever had at any time in the history of
policing in England and Wales.
(South Basildon and East
Thurrock) (Con)
I do not wish to pre-empt the outcome of the consultation, but
many of my constituents cannot comprehend how such dangerous
weapons can be sold and end up in commonplace use on our streets.
I recognise the challenges, but please will the Minister do
whatever it takes to get these weapons off our streets, prosecute
those who carry them regardless of whether or not they claim it
is for self-defence, and go as far as possible to restrict, and
preferably completely ban, their sale?
My hon. Friend speaks words of great wisdom and I agree with
every single one of them.
(Leeds Central) (Lab)
This is urgent. Last Sunday a 15-year-old boy was attacked with a
machete in Leeds—he is being treated for a serious head
injury—and the previous month a group of men had a fight with
machetes in broad daylight on the streets of our city. I welcome
these proposals and echo the call from my right hon. Friend the
Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) for them to be
brought in as quickly as possible and the call from the hon.
Member for Southend West () for them to be made as
comprehensive and loophole-free as possible, because there is no
place for these weapons anywhere in our cities and towns.
I agree completely with the right hon. Gentleman’s sentiments and
those expressed previously by the right hon. Member for
Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden). Speed is important: we
want to do this as quickly as we can, and that is one reason it
is a seven-week consultation rather than longer. As I said
earlier, we will take forward measures in secondary legislation
as quickly as we can, and will also handle as quickly as possible
those that need primary legislation.
I agree with the point about the need to avoid loopholes, and in
that spirit I strongly encourage Members of this House and people
outside it with an interest in this topic—whether charities or
anyone else—to reply to the consultation on those points of
detail. The shadow policing Minister, the hon. Member for Croydon
Central () raised some questions about
the length of particular knives; that is the kind of detail we
need to get right and the consultation is the vehicle through
which we can make sure the details are comprehensively captured
exactly as the right hon. Member for Leeds Central () suggests.
(Gillingham and Rainham)
(Con)
As in the constituencies of other Members, in 2018 we had a
shocking incident in Gillingham in which an 18-year-old was
killed by a gang using knives—the incident led to the tragic loss
of the life of Kyle Yule. I met his family afterwards and said we
would do everything we could to address the issue of knife crime,
which brings me to asking the Minister where we go next.
In 2019, senior detectives in Newham said they had discussed with
the Government a licensing or registration system due to fears
that hunting knives were becoming the weapon of choice for gangs.
That was in 2019 and we are now looking at new initiatives. Where
are we with regard to licensing and registration? The Minister
says we are looking at firearms legislation to see whether we
need to move to that kind of system for the possession of knives.
I was a lawyer and I prosecuted and defended many of these cases,
and questions were raised then about licensing perhaps being
specifically needed in this area. Are we there, and if not, why
not?
Some important steps were taken through the Offensive Weapons Act
2019. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, my hon. Friend the
Member for Louth and Horncastle () is in the Chamber, and in
a previous ministerial post she took that important legislation
through the House. We propose to go further now: rather than
introducing a licensing scheme, we propose to ban completely the
machetes and zombie knives that are not currently illegal.
Instead of requiring a licensing regime, it will simply be
illegal to sell, market, import, manufacture or privately possess
those particular knives.
(West Ham) (Lab)
I obviously welcome the further steps to crack down on dangerous
knives whenever they might come in, but I gently say to the
Minister that when I have taken evidence from experts on the
knife problems in my constituency they tell me it is about
poverty and child poverty; they tell me it is about the
flourishing illegal drugs trade that we just do not have a handle
on; they tell me it is about the exploitation of children by
county lines gangs; and they talk about the lack of access to
youth services and mental health treatment. I urge the Minister
to look at this in a holistic way and begin to bring real change
and real hope to communities like mine which are so blighted in
this way.
I recognise many of the causal factors the hon. Lady describes
from her experience in West Ham. In Croydon, we see similar
social problems that need to be addressed. Quite a lot of
investment is now going into those areas. There is more money
going into mental health. I mentioned already, in response to
previous questions, the money going into the Youth Endowment
Fund. The violence reduction units are designed to work with
young people and get them on to a better path. I was talking to
officers in Brixton in south London earlier today. They were
telling me how they will use their extra officers. The sergeant
from Lambeth talked about how they are going to try to work with
families of young people as young as nine who are beginning to
head down the wrong path. So, I agree that those are exactly the
things we need to work on. Investment is being made and we are on
the right path.
Mr (Old Bexley and Sidcup)
(Con)
I, too, welcome the news today that the Government are working to
close legal loopholes on zombie knives and to strengthen police
powers to help make our streets safer. My right hon. Friend will
be aware that many of our constituents, in Croydon but also in
Old Bexley and Sidcup, are very concerned about the rise in
crime, in particular knife crime, under the Mayor of London. I
therefore urge the Minister to review the calls from frontline
police officers to look also at the introduction of scan and
search as a way of helping to get knives off the street.
My hon. Friend and fellow London MP asks a very good and
pertinent question. The Metropolitan police currently takes
between 350 and 400 knives off the streets of London every month
using regular stop and search, so we should be clear that it is
an important tactic that keeps our constituents and fellow
citizens safe. Scan and search has enormous potential for
covertly or discreetly scanning people as they walk down the
street and detecting those who are carrying knives. I strongly
encourage police forces up and down the country, not just the
Metropolitan police, to adopt that kind of technology to ensure
they identify more knives and take them off our streets.
(Hemsworth) (Lab)
An hour and a half ago, we were able to identify and source
online a machete for under £11 which could be delivered to my
house tomorrow. That is totally unacceptable. My constituents do
not want to hear any more words; they want action. The Minister
talked about diversionary tactics for young people. The 23
villages I represent tell me the Government have abandoned them:
no youth services anymore; very little access to mental health
services for young people; and very often we do not see any
community police officers in our villages. None of that is
acceptable. The issue requires a holistic approach by the
Government to tackle the sense of abandonment that so many people
feel in our area, which is the breeding ground for so much
violent crime.
One of the reasons we are hiring extra officers—and why we are
confident we will have record numbers when the figures are
unveiled next week—is to ensure we have a visible police presence
not just in our cities and towns, but in villages up and down the
country as well. In terms of action on buying zombie knives, the
seven-week consultation launched today, combined with the
provisions in the Online Safety Bill, are designed to address
that problem. It is important, as the hon. Gentleman says, and
that is why the Government are acting.
(Stockton South) (Con)
Recently in Thornaby we have seen feral, balaclava-clad,
knife-wielding yobs riding around residential areas on off-road
bikes. On Saturday, someone was robbed at knife point in broad
daylight. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we must encourage
and back the police in the wider use of stop and search to get
knives off our streets? Will he meet me to discuss the horrendous
issues occurring in Thornaby?
Yes, I absolutely agree that stop and search is a vital tool. I
mentioned a few minutes ago that every month in London alone stop
and search takes between 350 and 400 knives off our
streets—knives that could be used to injure or even kill our
fellow citizens—so I completely agree with that point. And yes,
of course I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend.
Sir (Rhondda) (Lab)
It is nearly three years since John Rees, then 88, left his wife
in the car when he popped into Penygraig Co-op to pick up a few
groceries. While he was in there, Zara Radcliffe tried to attack
another person. He tried to intervene and was killed in the
process. Of course, a knife was involved and it was the knife
that killed him. But in the end, in a way, it is not the knife
but the person who killed him. He was a phenomenal hero.
My anxiety is that if we deal only with more and more legislation
and we do not deal with all the other issues, such as the mental
health situation surrounding Zara Radcliffe or the problems with
youth services up and down the country, we will not come to a
solution. A point was made by a colleague of the Minister earlier
that I think is really important: there is no point in passing
lots more laws if we do not enforce them. He may not be able to
answer this question now, and if he cannot I would be grateful if
he wrote to me, but can he tell me how many prosecutions there
have been since the 2019 Act in relation to possessing a knuckle
duster, a throwing star or a zombie knife, or for that matter for
the sale of a knife either in person or online without proper
reason to someone under the age of 18?
I am afraid I do not have the prosecution figures to hand, but I
will certainly write to the hon. Gentleman with them. They are
quite substantial. I agree with his general point that
legislating is important but that, on its own, it is not enough.
It is important that we legislate and that the police have the
relevant powers, and it is important that we criminalise
dangerous knives, as we are going to do, but we also need to
ensure that there are enough police to enforce those laws, hence
the police recruitment programme. It is important to have the
right youth services, hence the Youth Endowment Fund and the
violence reduction units that are being invested in, and the
hotspot policing via the Grip programme, where the police
identify particular hotspots and have surge policing in those
areas. He is right that we need to do all those things. By
comprehensively tackling this together, we can continue to make
sure that the violent crime figures go down.
(Coventry North West)
(Lab)
As co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on child
criminal exploitation and knife crime, I welcome any announcement
to tackle knife crime. As many have said today, adequate police
numbers are important when tackling knife crime. In the west
midlands, we have seen the highest incidence of knife crime of
any police force area in the country, but we have had the lowest
increase in police numbers since 2010. When will the Government
start listening to my constituents in Coventry North West, invest
in policing in the west midlands and make the necessary
investments to start tackling the root causes of knife crime?
I have talked a lot about the measures being taken to tackle the
causes of knife crime: the Youth Endowment Fund, the violence
reduction units and the Grip hotspot surge policing. I think the
west midlands is one of the 20 forces that receives those
interventions, as we would expect given the problems. On police
numbers, I believe we will hit record numbers across England and
Wales. There are some individual forces where police and crime
commissioners have chosen, over the last five or 10 years, not to
use their precept flexibility to raise more funds, and that does
have a consequence. That is an issue the hon. Lady should raise
with her local police and crime commissioner.
(Eltham) (Lab)
I welcome the consultation. Let us hope it leads to urgent
action. The Minister bandied around some figures to try to paint
a rosy picture of crime rates, but what he failed to mention is
that knife-enabled rape cases are at a record high and that,
since 2015, knife-enabled crime is up 70%. I wonder if he thinks
that has been assisted and aided by the fact that the
Conservatives cut 21,000 police officers in that time, and
whether that contributed to those rising figures? He says he may
be crowing about the number of police officers next week, but
where will they be allocated and will they be back on our streets
in community policing, which the Conservatives decimated?
Actually, the Metropolitan police already has record numbers. The
most recent published figures show that it has roughly 35,000
police officers compared to a previous peak of 33,000, so the Met
already has record numbers. From talking to the commissioner, Sir
Mark Rowley, I know that he intends to place an emphasis on
neighbourhood policing. In fact, earlier today a neighbourhood
sergeant in Brixton, Lambeth confirmed that the neighbourhood
policing units across the three wards he looks after have gone up
already.
(Birmingham, Selly Oak)
(Lab)
In his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central
(), the Minister cited the
importance that he attaches to data from the Office for National
Statistics. It reports that the number of people killed with a
knife last year was the highest in 76 years. Did the Minister
miss that statistic? How does that fit into his rather upbeat
presentation?
Overall, total homicide has gone down slightly over the last
three years—by about 7%, speaking from memory. We should welcome
that reduction. One of the reasons for legislating is that we are
concerned that some of the very dangerous knives are being used
in knife-enabled homicide, as the hon. Gentleman describes. One
of the issues with zombie knives is their double-serrated and
jagged edges: if somebody is stabbed it causes serious internal
injuries, which trauma surgeons and A&E consultants tell us
are more likely to lead to serious injury or even death.
Precisely for that reason, we are bringing forward these
changes.
(Hammersmith) (Lab)
Is the Minister aware of the long-standing research by the
University of Leicester on knife injuries, which found that
carving knives are the most commonly used in stabbing incidents?
A campaign was led by retired circuit judge Nic Madge, who has
tried many knife offence cases. He said:
“my experience is that the vast majority of knives carried by
teenage boys are ordinary kitchen knives.”
The campaign has made some practical recommendations such as only
allowing the sale of large kitchen knives with rounded tips, to
reduce serious injuries. Will the Minister engage with that work?
What he announced today will make very little difference to the
number of deaths and serious injuries on our streets, as
perpetrators have other sources of knives available.
As I said in my previous answer, the knives that we are talking
about with serrated edges and jagged shapes tend to cause the
worst injuries, because of the internal damage that they cause
when somebody is stabbed with them. However, the hon. Gentleman
makes some valid points, and I would be happy to engage with him
and others to see if there are areas where we can go further.
(Luton South) (Lab)
Sadly, on Friday evening a young teenager in Luton South was
stabbed and died. Like many others, I welcome the consultation.
However, like others, whether from West Ham in a city, the
village of Hemsworth, the valley of Rhondda or the town of Luton,
how can I trust what the Government are saying about prevention
when they have stripped £1 billion from youth services?
I am sure that all in the House extend their condolences to the
bereaved family in Luton for the incident that the hon. Lady
described. We have talked about youth services quite extensively.
Significant investment is being made via the Youth Endowment
Fund, which is an evidence-based programme to put money into
interventions that are proven to work using data. The violence
reduction units in the 20 police force areas with the most
significant challenges are funding local services to help young
people in particular—in some cases as young as nine—on to a
better path for the future. Those measures are working
collectively. Violent crime is down by 38% since 2010, but
clearly cases such as the one she mentioned mean that we cannot
be complacent. There is more work to do. I am confident that by
working together we can overcome the scourge of knife crime.
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