Motion Moved by Lord Sharpe of Epsom That the Bill be now read a
third time. The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con) My Lords, I have
it in command from His Majesty the King and His Royal Highness the
Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that they, having been
informed of the purport of the National Security Bill, have
consented to place their interests, so far as they are affected by
the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the
Bill. Clause...Request free trial
Motion
Moved by
That the Bill be now read a third time.
The Lord Privy Seal () (Con)
My Lords, I have it in command from His Majesty the King and His
Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to acquaint the House that
they, having been informed of the purport of the National
Security Bill, have consented to place their interests, so far as
they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for
the purposes of the Bill.
Clause 14: Foreign interference: meaning of “interference
effect”
Amendment 1
Moved by
1: Clause 14, page 13, line 10, leave out from “department” to
end of line 12 and insert—
“(aa) a Northern Ireland Minister, the First Minister in Northern
Ireland, the deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland, a person
appointed as a junior Minister under section 19 of the Northern
Ireland Act 1998, a Northern Ireland department or the Executive
Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly,(ab) the Scottish
Ministers or the First Minister for Scotland,(ac) the Welsh
Ministers, the First Minister for Wales or the Counsel General to
the Welsh Government, or”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and Lord Sharpe’s other amendments to clause 14
clarify the persons whose decisions are caught by clause
14(1)(d), and are needed to avoid giving a meaning to the terms
“Scottish Ministers”, “Welsh Ministers” and “Northern Ireland
Minister” that is different to the meaning of those terms given
in the devolution Acts.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office () (Con)
My Lords, as I set out at Second Reading, the first
responsibility of any Government is to ensure the safety of their
citizens. National security is at the forefront of this
Government’s agenda, and that is why the passing of this Bill is
so important. It gives us a new toolkit to tackle those state
actors who threaten the safety and security of the United
Kingdom. By listening carefully, and working closely with your
Lordships through the passage of this Bill, we have created
legislation which is stronger, more targeted and shows the
importance of the scrutiny that this House provides.
We have made a range of changes to this Bill since its
introduction, such as significantly tightening Part 1 in response
to concerns relating to journalistic freedoms. We have amended
the “ought reasonably to know” test to put it beyond doubt that
individuals would not be caught if they acted unwittingly or
without genuine knowledge as to the effect of their conduct.
Further, we have focused the political tier of the foreign
influence registration scheme more explicitly on foreign powers,
providing us all with more information about the scale and nature
of foreign political influence in the United Kingdom. We have
also, under Clause 30, created a targeted defence available to
UKIC and the Armed Forces for the extraterritorial offences under
Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 in specific circumstances,
replacing the previous approach of disapplying those
offences.
I also note that the Government will bring back the sensible
amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, to restrict the
defence to intelligence activity of the Armed Forces, during
Commons consideration of these amendments. We have extended the
oversight provisions which were included in Part 2 on
introduction of the Bill to cover Part 1 as well. We have also
amended Schedule 3 to the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security
Act, so that the statutory oversight for those powers will now be
the responsibility of the new independent reviewer of national
security legislation, ensuring that the oversight of all state
threats provisions is in one place. The Government recognise the
importance of independent scrutiny, and I know noble Lords
welcome the inclusion of a new reviewer for the Bill.
I shall now speak briefly to the minor and technical amendments
we have tabled today. Together, these amendments clarify
definitions related to decisions of the devolved Administrations
in Clauses 14(4)(a) and 71(3)(b) for the offence of foreign
interference and the political influence tier of FIRS. These
amendments will also clarify which officeholders in Scotland and
Wales to whom a communication is sent are caught by Schedule 14
as set out in Clause 71(2)(a). I want to provide some context to
these changes. We took the opportunity on Report in the Lords to
clarify the drafting so as to ensure our policy intention in
relation to government decisions was clear on the face of the
legislation. We replaced the phrase
“a decision of the government of the UK”
through Amendments 50 and 118, with
“a Minister of the Crown (within the meaning of the Ministers of
the Crown Act 1975), a United Kingdom government department”.
In doing so, we identified that the definitions did not fully
reflect the decision-making powers of the devolved
Administrations and their Ministers, but we wanted to make sure
we got this drafting right, so we have worked closely with our
colleagues in the devolved Administrations before tabling these
amendments. Amendments 1 to 8 achieve the same effect as those
tabled on Report mentioned above.
Amendments 1 and 4 relate to drafting changes for Clauses 14 and
71 respectively. They contain revised definitions for Scotland,
Wales and Northern Ireland to ensure parity for all Governments
within the United Kingdom. Amendments 2, 3, 5 and 6 are
consequential amendments flowing from Amendments 1 and 4.
Amendments 7 and 8 relate to the definitions in Schedule 14,
which covers those officeholders to whom communication is caught
under Clause 71(2)(a). It is vital that the UK is able to promote
transparency within the political lobbying arena and tackle those
who seek to interfere in our democracy at every level and in
every part of the United Kingdom. That is why these amendments
are so important, and I ask noble Lords to support their
inclusion in the Bill.
Finally, in terms of tabled amendments, there is also a change to
the Long Title of the Bill to reflect the changes made on Report
to the foreign influence registration scheme. I beg to move.
(Con)
My Lords, I briefly thank the Minister. I have heard from the
stiftungs that we intervened on behalf of, and they thank the
Minister for the movement that has happened and look forward to
working closely with us in the future. I think it is as well to
place these thanks on the public record.
(GP)
My Lords, I still feel quite grumpy about the Bill, but I accept
that the Government have moved a little. I very much hope that,
when it gets back to the other place, Members there will perhaps
see fit to introduce stronger protections for journalists. I
understand that something has gone into the Public Order Bill,
but I think something should have been in this Bill as well.
(CB)
My Lords, we on these Benches are often critical of the
Government—of either colour, I understand—so it is perhaps
appropriate to record my appreciation, at least, to the Minister
and indeed to the Security Minister, for the patience with which
they listened to us, but also for the imagination with which they
reacted, not simply producing cosmetic tweaks that resulted in
dogs being called off, but being prepared to go back,
particularly on the political tier of the foreign influence
registration scheme, to first principles and to think it out
again, with the consequence, I suspect, that we are now left with
something of real value, rather than the bureaucratic nightmare
with which we were threatened when the Bill left the Commons.
Amendment 1 agreed.
Amendments 2 and 3
Moved by
2: Clause 14, page 13, leave out lines 37 and 38
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on Lord Sharpe’s amendment to
clause 14(4).
3: Clause 14, page 14, leave out lines 3 and 4
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on Lord Sharpe’s amendment to
clause 14(4).
Amendments 2 and 3 agreed.
Clause 71: Meaning of “political influence activity”
Amendments 4 to 6
Moved by
4: Clause 71, page 52, line 5, leave out from “department” to end
of line 6 and insert—
“(ii) a Northern Ireland Minister, the First Minister in Northern
Ireland, the deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland, a person
appointed as a junior Minister under section 19 of the Northern
Ireland Act 1998, a Northern Ireland department or the Executive
Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly,(iii) the Scottish
Ministers or the First Minister for Scotland, or(iv) the Welsh
Ministers, the First Minister for Wales or the Counsel General to
the Welsh Government,”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and Lord Sharpe’s other amendments to clause 71
clarify the persons whose decisions are caught by clause
71(2)(b), and are needed to avoid giving a meaning to the terms
“Scottish Ministers”, “Welsh Ministers” and “Northern Ireland
Minister” that is different to the meaning of those terms given
in the devolution Acts.
5: Clause 71, page 52, leave out lines 17 and 18
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on Lord Sharpe’s amendment to
clause 71(3).
6: Clause 71, page 52, leave out lines 22 and 23
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on Lord Sharpe’s amendment to
clause 71(3).
Amendments 4 to 6 agreed.
Schedule 14: Public Officials
Amendments 7 and 8
Moved by
7: Schedule 14, page 186, line 33, leave out from “Minister” to
end and insert “, the First Minister in Northern Ireland, the
deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland or a person appointed
as a junior Minister under section 19 of the Northern Ireland Act
1998.”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies which office-holders in Northern
Ireland, to whom a communication is sent, are caught by Schedule
14, and is consequential (in part) on Lord Sharpe’s amendment to
clause 71(5).
8: Schedule 14, page 186, line 34, leave out paragraphs 3 and 4
and insert—
“3 The First Minister for Scotland, a Minister appointed under
section 47 of the Scotland Act 1998 or a junior Scottish
Minister.4 The First Minister for Wales, a Welsh Minister
appointed under section 48 of the Government of Wales Act 2006,
the Counsel General to the Welsh Government or a Deputy Welsh
Minister appointed under section 50 of that Act.”Member's
explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies which office-holders in Scotland
and Wales, to whom a communication is sent, are caught by
Schedule 14, and is consequential (in part) on Lord Sharpe’s
amendment to clause 71(5).
Amendments 7 and 8 agreed.
In the Title
Amendment 9
Moved by
9: Title, line 4, leave out “principals” and insert “powers”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment to the long title is consequential on amendments
made to Part 4 of the Bill on Report.
Amendment 9 agreed.
Motion
Moved by
That the Bill do now pass.
(Con)
My Lords, I wish to express my sincere gratitude to all noble
Lords across the House for their interest in this Bill and for
their valuable contributions and co-operation so far. Debate has
been consistently informative and constructive. I am extremely
grateful for the diligent approach that noble Lords from across
the House have taken to ensuring that this vital legislation has
received full scrutiny ahead of returning to the other place.
I am particularly grateful for the positive engagement and
support of various noble Lords. From the Benches opposite, I am
grateful to the noble Lords, , and ; from the Cross Benches, I am
grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady , and the noble Lords,
Lord Evans, Lord Anderson and Lord Carlile; from the Liberal
Democrat Benches, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Purvis
and ; and I am also grateful to my
noble friends Lady Noakes and Lord Leigh. I hope all noble Lords
will join me in thanking the Bill team, policy teams and legal
teams in the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice for their
hard work in getting the Bill to its current position. They
worked phenomenally hard, particularly in relation to FIRS. It is
always invidious to single out anyone in particular, but I would
very much like to thank the following: Emer Smith from my private
office, and Laura Weight, Jack Joseph, Sebastian Graves Read,
Grace Bennett, Joe Marshall, Grace Lucas, James Dix and, last but
by no means least, Louise Holliday from the Bill team.
I also place on record my thanks to our law enforcement and
intelligence agencies, both for their contributions to this
Bill’s development and for their enduring work in keeping us all
safe every day. It is vital that they have the tools they need to
fulfil such a challenging task. The measures in the Bill seek to
ensure they are well equipped to tackle the wide range of modern
threats that we face in the UK today. I beg to move.
(Lab)
My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for his constructive
engagement, along with his colleagues, the noble and learned
Lord, , and the noble Lord, Lord
Murray, and others, including his Bill team. The Bill has
had significant changes made to it, showing the way this Chamber
can improve legislation. That can happen only when a Minister and
the Government listen. All of us, I think, appreciate the way the
Minister has engaged and made significant changes to the Bill to
improve it. We are all grateful to him for that.
I also pay due respect to the contributions of many noble Lords
across the House. I pay my respect to the noble Lord, Lord
Anderson, who we have just heard from on the previous group of
amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who I am pleased to
see in his place. I think the contributions from the noble Lords,
Lord Alton, and , have been significant and
have helped to improve the Bill.
The Minister paid tribute to the intelligence and security
services, as we all do, because we all have an interest in the
security of our nation. We should note that the noble Lord, Lord
Evans, and the noble Baroness, Lady , have attended virtually
the whole of the proceedings on this Bill. That says everything
about the contributions they have made, but also it also sends a
signal to the intelligence and security services to know that two
former directors-general have spent all their time contributing
to the Bill and advising people both in the Chamber and outside
of it. That is of huge significance, not only to this Chamber but
to our country. They deserve recognition for that.
I also thank my noble friends and Lady Hayter for their
contributions throughout the Bill, which have helped our thinking
as well. I thank my noble friend for his—as I often say
now—calming support to my more excitable personality. That helps
me enormously in more ways than you can imagine. I also thank—I
know they are not here—the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and , for their input, which helped
to improve the Bill.
15:30:00
I look forward, as the Bill progresses, to the other place
looking at the amendments we have made. I particularly look
forward to the update on the ISC MoU and where the Government get
to in respect to that and their response to it, and the Prime
Minister’s attendance, which I am sure we are all looking forward
to. The ISC has been waiting since 2014, so I think it will be
looking forward to a prime ministerial visit at some point. It is
a bit nearer than Washington.
In terms of proscription, we are also worried about the
activities of the IRGC. My amendment was defeated, but we look
forward to seeing what the Government propose to do in respect of
that. As the Minister quite rightly said, we are all interested
in the national security of our country and the freedom and
democracy for which it stands. I both believe and think that the
National Security Bill, in updating the architecture in which
security in this country works, has made and will make a
significant contribution to the security of our citizens and,
indeed, our country.
(LD)
My Lords, I must apologise that my noble friend Lord Purvis
cannot be here with us today. He was coming down from the
Borders, but he was unfortunately grounded by the winds at UK
airports, so I am just standing in to pass on his thanks to the
House.
At Second Reading, my colleagues raised concerns that, in many
areas, this important Bill was not workable and, in others,
seriously undermined civil liberties. However, we would like to
thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, who in Committee listened,
acted and then brought forward a series of government amendments
to address them. My noble friend is also appreciative of the
openness of the noble and learned Lord, , at the Ministry of Justice.
The Bill leaves this House a better one than when it arrived, and
it is a testament to the cross-party working that went into it.
Of course, some issues remain, and we will continue to press on
them.
My noble friend Lord Purvis would also like to thank all Members
of the House who have participated, including the opposition team
and the officials’ Bill team, for all their support and work
during this Bill. On his behalf, I thank our own team, led by
, who marshalled all our
work supremely.
(LD)
My Lords, I saw my role in this Bill as representing the research
sector to some extent, and I am very conscious—as I am sure the
Minister is—of the delicate balance there is between the
desirability of close international collaboration and sometimes
having to collaborate with those who come from authoritarian
countries that are not entirely friendly to us. The
representatives of the research sector—the Royal Society and
others—look forward to talking with the department about the
guidance, which we hope will strike exactly the right balance in
this delicate area between what needs to be done and not imposing
deliberate bureaucracy.
I am sure that the Minister is aware from what we have seen in
Georgia over the last two weeks—where there have been very
serious riots against the Government caused by a foreign agents
Bill, which is seen as a Russian attempt to gag the Government
and the people of Georgia and to block their contact with the
western world—that this is a delicate area. It is extremely
difficult to get the right balance, and we hope that we have
achieved in this House a much better balance than when the Bill
was originally drafted.
(Lab)
My Lords, I hope the Chamber will indulge me. I forgot to thank
, who is our adviser. I apologise
to him for that.
(Con)
While the House is indulging, I also forgot to thank my
colleagues, my noble friends and , so I would like to
place that on record. I also thank my noble and learned friend
at the Ministry of
Justice.
Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments.
|
