Asked by
To ask His Majesty’s Government what representations they have
received from (1) rail passenger groups, and (2) other
stakeholders, about the proposed closure of railway station
ticket offices.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Transport () (Con)
My Lords, the Government regularly hold meetings with rail
passenger groups and other stakeholders, including the Disabled
Persons Transport Advisory Committee. Retail and workforce
modernisation, including industry plans for ticket offices, forms
part of those discussions. To propose any changes to the opening
hours or the closure of ticket offices, train operating companies
must follow the process set out in the ticketing and settlement
agreement.
(Lab)
Would the Minister be relaxed about catching a late-night
train—operated only by a driver with no other staff on it—from an
unstaffed station and then leaving the train at an unstaffed
station at her destination? Does she think that ticket machines
would come to her assistance in the event of any problems? If
something unfortunate happened and she had to use a wheelchair,
how would she consider travelling in those circumstances? Bearing
in mind that, in the Greater London area, the London Overground,
the Underground and the Elizabeth line all have stations staffed
from the first to the last train, why cannot the rest of the
country be treated in the same way?
(Con)
My Lords, driver-only operations have been around since about the
1980s. It is certainly not a new concept. Over half of passengers
who use the railways are on trains where driver-only operations
are in place and have been accepted by train drivers. If we are
able to change arrangements at ticket offices in some locations,
that will mean that more people will be out and about in
stations, providing the eyes and ears that we need to keep
passengers safe. The Government are very conscious of more
vulnerable adults and how they travel. We work very closely with
the police and the Rail Delivery Group.
(Con)
My Lords, will the Minister comment on the fact that, in 2015-16,
Transport for London closed all ticket offices on the Underground
to free staff to be available for helping passengers and
providing information? Why has it taken Network Rail all these
years to get round to this particular modernisation? Indeed, what
is happening with all the other modernisations? After all, this
is fairly low-hanging fruit.
(Con)
It is up to the train operating companies, which operate the
ticket offices, to think about the best way to manage their
resources—including people—to serve customers better. I accept
that TfL is often ahead of the game in many areas. Noble Lords
will recall a time when you could pay by cash for a bus ticket in
London; that is the case no longer. There are ticket offices
across the country where less than one ticket an hour is sold. I
put it to noble Lords that the person behind that glass screen
could be doing other things.
(LD)
My Lords, many of the stations that I use have not had ticket
offices for years, but my main concern is not just how and where
you buy the ticket but how much it costs. We already have the
most expensive railway in Europe. Are the Government committed to
ensuring that fare increases are frozen next year to help with
the cost of living in these difficult times, and to reflect the
dire service that passengers have received in recent months from
many train operating companies?
(Con)
When it comes to the railway, DfT Ministers have front of mind
the impact on passengers of recent disruption, and value for
money for all taxpayers. The railway has lost 20% of its
passengers since the pandemic, which means that it has also lost
between £125 million and £175 million a month in revenues. Nobody
wants to see fares go higher but the reality is that we need to
ensure a good deal for taxpayers. Part of that involves being
able to modernise the railways such that they can offer the sort
of service, at the sort of fares, that people want.
(Lab)
My Lords, is it not the case that ticket offices are providers
not just of tickets but, frequently, of essential information for
travellers? Given the huge complexity of ticketing systems across
the country and lack of knowledge, perhaps, about the cheapest or
quickest route, does the Minister not agree that ticket offices
need to remain open for that reason in addition to those pointed
out by my noble friend ?
(Con)
I think the noble Lord sort of makes my point for me. I agree
with him that people need help, but it may not just be about
buying a ticket and that person does not necessarily have to be
sitting behind glass. Some customers need all types of help,
particularly if they have reduced mobility. Our view is that
there may be circumstances where it is appropriate to make sure
that people are out and about helping customers to learn to use
ticket machines and answering questions on the platform and not
downstairs at the ticket office. It is all about flexibility.
(Con)
My Lords, am I not right in saying to my noble friend the
Minister that we now have a new Minister for Railways in another
place who will focus entirely on updating the so-called
antiquated systems of ticketing and the way that the railways are
managed and run?
(Con)
My noble friend is quite right. has taken over as the new Rail Minister. If I
may, I will just plug the meeting I have arranged with the Rail
Minister tomorrow at 5.30 pm for any noble Lord who wishes to
attend to ask him questions about current services, industrial
action or, indeed, the critical modernisation that he is focused
on.
(Lab)
My Lords, the Minister has talked about driver-only trains, but
the key surely is to have people on the station who can help
people who are in wheelchairs or disabled in some way—my wife
uses a wheelchair all the time—to get on and off the trains.
Whether they are behind a ticket barrier or in an office, it does
not really matter. Can she assure the House that there will be no
reduction in the number of people who are on the
platforms—whether they are from the train or the platform—to help
people who need mobility assistance?
(Con)
I can reassure the noble Lord that we are absolutely focused on
making sure that every single passenger, whether they have
reduced mobility or not, gets the service that they need at the
place they need it. That may not be the ticket office; it may be
on the platform. I am really pleased that the Government have
worked closely with the Rail Delivery Group on developing the app
for passengers with reduced mobility. That has proved very
successful. It is but one step and there are many more things
that we can do.
of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, yesterday morning when there was significant snowfall,
I stood on the platform at my local station and watched the
person who is often behind the glass—as the noble Baroness put
it—in the ticket office clearing the snow from the platform and
helping people, other than me, who needed help. Why is the noble
Baroness making a distinction between people who are behind the
glass and people who are helping other people? They are the same
people now and we need them all.
(Con)
That is exactly what we want to see. We want people who are
multiskilled and able to clear the platform of snow, help
passengers with reduced mobility and sell tickets. I am not
entirely sure that I understand that there is such a
differentiation.
(CB)
My Lords, will the Minister take back to her department that it
is extremely difficult ever to find anyone on any platform in the
West Country?
(Con)
A voice behind me said, “Including passengers”, but let us not go
there. I will take that back to my department.
(Con)
My Lords, the person who sold me my ticket yesterday certainly
made her views clear. She said, “What’s all this nonsense about
doing away with the House of Lords? They can’t do that, can
they?”
A noble Lord
Hear, hear!
(Con)
Maybe we are headed towards the ways of ticket office workers.
Who knows? I very much hope not.
(Lab)
My Lords, at the Conservative Party conference in October, the
previous Transport Secretary, when saying that she was asking
industry to launch consultations on reforming ticket office
provision, suggested the move was about putting passengers first.
Have the Government set out the terms of those consultations and
can the Minister confirm that it will include thorough
consideration of the impact on passengers with accessibility
needs?
(Con)
I can absolutely confirm all those things. This is not one
central consultation. The train operating company that operates a
ticket office will engage with passenger groups and, indeed, with
passengers at the ticket office where they propose to make
changes. It is all set out in the ticketing and settlement
agreement, which all train operating companies must abide by. If
there are any concerns, they should be registered and notified to
the relevant body, which is either Transport Focus or London
TravelWatch. They will then raise it with the Secretary of State,
who will take that into consideration, plus various other
elements, if there are concerns.
