Defence Jobs
(Crawley) (Con)
1. What steps his Department is taking to support defence jobs.
(901113)
(Redcar) (Con)
15. What steps his Department is taking to support defence jobs
in the UK. (901128)
(Banff and Buchan) (Con)
17. What steps his Department is taking to support defence jobs.
(901131)
(West Bromwich East)
(Con)
20. What steps his Department is taking to support defence jobs.
(901134)
The Secretary of State for Defence ( )
I am sorry that I did not get the memo on dress and attire
earlier, Mr Speaker. What next? Flip-flops in the House?
Mr Speaker
Politicians already do that. [Laughter.]
Mr Wallace
Not in the Defence team, Mr Speaker. We shall leave that to
others.
The Ministry of Defence’s sustained investment in industries
across the UK supports over 200,000 jobs. Continued high and
focused defence spending, supported by the changes we are making
as part of the defence and security industrial strategy, will
contribute to further economic growth and prosperity across the
Union.
It is good to see that you are in fine, typical wit despite the
heat, Mr Speaker.
As my right hon. Friend said, the UK defence sector is vital for
jobs, the defence of this country and our allies, such as the
Ukrainians, against Russian aggression. I am very proud of the
contribution of Thales, which is located in my constituency. What
is his Department doing to encourage defence contractors such as
Thales to expand to meet this country’s increasing defence
needs?
Mr Wallace
My hon. Friend asks an important question. Last week, I met the
Defence Suppliers Forum, which includes Thales. We work closely
together not only to indicate potential investments by defence in
what we would need, but to make sure that we both meet our future
requirements. Thales UK is one of Britain’s biggest and most
advanced defence companies. Its NLAW—next generation light
anti-tank weapon—systems are being used in Ukraine. I
congratulate him on posing a question on Thales.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that procurement rules in the UK
should recognise the socioeconomic benefit of investment as well
as value for money in defence spending? To that end, will his
Department ensure that more defence contracts are given to
businesses based in Britain, such as our fantastic manufacturers
in Teesside?
Mr Wallace
Yes, the defence industrial strategy embraces the social value
model from the Treasury in competitive procurement and ensures
that tackling economic inequality and equal opportunity are
factors that are taken into consideration in procurement. Under
my direction and that of the Minister for Defence Procurement,
the Ministry of Defence always has regard for onshore sovereign
capability and industrial skills.
Scottish businesses receive more investment than average across
the UK from defence procurement, so how will my right hon. Friend
continue to encourage the building of the skills that we need to
help Scottish businesses to continue doing their bit in defence
of our United Kingdom?
Mr Wallace
Our investment in Scotland was £1.99 billion last year, on
projects such as the Type 26 in Govan, the Type 31 in Rosyth,
airborne radars and advanced laser munitions in Edinburgh, which
all help to sustain the skills base. It is incredibly important
that the Scottish Government and the UK Government work with the
further education colleges and the manufacturers to make sure
that they invest in the skills that we so vitally need.
The Boxer programme in Telford has a positive effect throughout
the midlands, with over 60% of its value flowing into UK supply
chains. Can my right hon. Friend confirm how certain we can be of
future jobs and investment from defence land equipment?
Mr Wallace
Yes, the fact that the Army will invest £41.3 billion in new
capabilities over the next decade—including the likes of Boxer,
Challenger 3 and two new major programmes that will develop in
the near future, such as deep fires—will increase production and
the employment base, which is also why it is so important that we
invest in the skills at the same time. That will put UK land
manufacturing back at the forefront of the international defence
sector. It is a part of the sector that has lagged behind air and
sea for too long.
(Warley) (Lab)
May I make it simple for the Secretary of State? Defence jobs
depend on orders, principally from his Department, and even
export orders depend on British validation. He referred earlier
to his support for the British defence industry, so why will he
not now commit to ordering the fleet solid support ships to be
built in British yards?
Mr Wallace
They will certainly be integrated in British yards, and a
significant proportion will be built there. Let us have a look at
what the bidders say; I have not yet seen the bids. As the right
hon. Gentleman absolutely points out, British defence is
dependent on British manufacturing, but British manufacturing is
dependent on exports. If we are going to export our defence, as
with Typhoon aircraft, Boxer and many of our exports, we often
have to collaborate with international partners, because if we
close the door on them, they are not going to buy British
kit.
(North Durham) (Lab)
The Defence Secretary has just said that social value will be
taken into consideration when awarding contracts. I have asked
numerous parliamentary questions of the Department to try to
quantify that; I have had no answer. I have asked the National
Audit Office this question; it does not seem to know what is
being used by the Department. Could the Defence Secretary clarify
exactly what social value means, in quantifiable terms, when
awarding contracts? It was clearly laid out in the excellent
report that the right hon. Member for Ludlow () did a few years ago.
Mr Wallace
In strategy documents such as the national shipbuilding strategy,
we pledged a minimum 20% weighting for social value with naval
ships. Social value is one of the weightings that we put on the
contract. All contracts are obviously different from what we are
seeking to buy, but within the weighting for social value, on
which 20% of the total award is based, we can consider
inequalities or the economic factors that I referred to earlier.
I make sure that those factors are in there, and that they are
adhered to. It is incredibly important.
(Caithness, Sutherland and
Easter Ross) (LD)
The hostelries of east Fife benefit hugely from having Leuchars
in east Fife. Similarly, when Joint Warrior comes to the
north-west of my constituency, brisk trade is done. Does the
Secretary of State accept that there are spin-off jobs that
benefit from MOD expenditure the length and breadth of the
UK?
Mr Wallace
Yes. I am delighted that military activity in the north-west and
the east of Scotland brings in not just investment and
industry—the £1.99 billion that I have talked about—but economic
engagement with the community, which helps to sustain jobs, often
in low season rather than the tourist season. It is Britain’s
armed forces and British defence that help to keep us all safe,
from the very tip of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency right down
to the south-west.
(York Central)
(Lab/Co-op)
But the defence jobs that the Defence Secretary is cutting are
those of our armed forces personnel. There are 40,000 less than
when Labour left office, and right now we are cutting another
10,000 jobs. At a time when there is greater global instability,
we could be utilising these vital armed forces personnel to
de-escalate risk using soft power, which our armed forces are so
good at. Could the Defence Secretary tell the House whether this
determination is driven by him, by the former Chancellor or by
the professional leadership of our armed forces?
Mr Wallace
It is currently driven by an estimation of threat. As I have said
a number of times at the Dispatch Box, if the threat changes, so
must we. I do not call an increase of £24 billion in spending on
defence a cut, in anybody’s book. However, what I do believe is
that as the threat changes, so must we. We will continue to
review that and, if the threat changes, I will be back.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
(Wentworth and Dearne)
(Lab)
May I congratulate the Defence Secretary and his team on ensuring
that there has been continuity in defence while the rest of the
Conservative Government have collapsed in chaos? Let me also say,
lest this prove to be their last session of oral questions in
their current jobs, that whatever our other disagreements, the
Secretary of State’s cross-party working on Ukraine has helped to
ensure that the UK has strong, unified support for the
Ukrainians.
The right hon. Gentleman has been Defence Secretary since the
Prime Minister, nearly two years ago, boosted defence spending
and boasted that that would create 10,000 jobs every year. Only
800 new defence jobs have been created since then. Why the
failure?
Mr Wallace
I should be happy for the right hon. Gentleman to show me that
800 figure, but, first and foremost, we have started to invest
that £43.1 billion, or £41.3 billion, in the land scheme, a huge
amount of which will be spent on Boxer and Challenger 3. That
will generate an enormous number of jobs. Obviously, replenishing
some of our ammunition stocks, many of which are made up and down
the United Kingdom, will result in more jobs, and indeed the
increased skills base for our work on the Dreadnought
submarine.
Let me thank the right hon. Gentleman—my opposite number on the
Front Bench—and, indeed, the whole House for the cross-party
support on Ukraine. I also thank my team, my hon. Friends the
Members for Wells (), for Horsham (), for Aldershot () and for Stourbridge (), , and my hon. Friend the
Member for Blyth Valley (). It is not often that a team
stick together in Parliament or indeed in Government and,
whatever happens over the next few months, it has been a
privilege for me to work with all of them.
We will continue to invest in the jobs—over 200,000. No doubt the
right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne () will be attending Farnborough
air show this week; it is an incredibly important event to
showcase British industry.
The answer is simple: direct British defence contracts first to
British firms and British jobs, starting with the Navy’s new
support ships.
The right hon. Gentleman has been Defence Secretary since the
Prime Minister also pledged, at the last election:
“We will not be cutting our armed services in any form.”
However, he then launched plans to cut the British Army by a
further 10,000 troops. He uses the words “when the threats
change”. With Ukraine, the threats that we face are greater and
our obligations to NATO are greater, so will he now do what
Labour has been urging the Government to do for more than a year,
and rethink these cuts in the strength of the British Army?
Mr Wallace
As I have also said over the year to those on the Labour Front
Bench, we have already reduced the original cut by 500 so that
the numbers are increased from 72,500 to 73,000. As for the
changing threats, the right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the
defence command paper was written and delivered before the actual
Russian invasion of Ukraine. I have said continually that we will
review it, and we will obviously review the threat as it changes.
That review of the threat is ongoing, which is why Defence
Intelligence gives regular briefings, and next year, or the year
after, is the Department’s spending moment.
Defence Technology
(Harrow East) (Con)
2. What steps his Department is taking to develop innovative
defence technology. (901114)
(Sedgefield) (Con)
4. What steps his Department is taking to develop innovative
defence technology. (901116)
(Harrogate and Knaresborough)
(Con)
5. What steps his Department is taking to develop innovative
defence technology. (901117)
(Heywood and Middleton)
(Con)
12. What steps his Department is taking to develop innovative
defence technology. (901125)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
Underpinned by a ringfenced £6.6 billion commitment to defence
research and development, we are determined to innovate
effectively and at scale. In addition to the well-established
Defence and Security Accelerator programme this summer, we are
launching the Defence Technology Exploitation programme, geared
to supporting small and medium-sized enterprises and their
innovative role in defence.
As my hon. Friend will know, we face a continued and substantial
increase in attacks from cyber-technology. It is important to
note that that is happening every single day that our defences
are being probed. What further efforts will my hon. Friend make
to ensure that our defences are secure and those attacks are
rebuffed?
My hon. Friend is right about that threat, and he is right to
suggest that we need to be absolutely on our toes in dealing with
it. The Department continuously integrates leading-edge
innovative cyber-technologies into military operations, including
intelligence agents for autonomous resilience cyber-defence and
cyber-deception technologies, through the National Cyber
Deception Laboratory. In doing so, we make active use of DASA
funding and the excellent expertise that we have in the Defence
Science and Technology Laboratory.
As we see in the tragedy that is happening to Ukraine, the normal
boundaries of warfare are being ignored, with increasing risks of
the employment of biological or viral warfare strategies. Does my
hon. Friend agree that we need to be at the forefront of
innovation and research to deliver the best possible platforms to
defend against these abhorrent strategies, and that the work that
companies such as Kromek in Sedgefield are doing in collaboration
with others deserves full support and indeed acceleration?
I am familiar with Kromek and its capabilities, and my hon.
Friend is absolutely right to say that it is often SMEs that
produce the most brilliant ideas, often working with excellent
British universities. DASA finds and supports new ideas within
defence, and I am delighted that SMEs make up some two thirds of
the projects that DASA supports. Funding is also available for
specialist innovative projects through Defence Science and
Technology.
Building on the comments about SMEs, the conflict in Ukraine has
shown the benefits of technical innovation, particularly in the
area of drones, and we have great SMEs in this country that are
keen to help, so could my hon. Friend explain a bit more about
how he is engaging with that sector?
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, not least because it
gives me the opportunity to say how keen the entire defence
sector is to support our friends in Ukraine in every way we can.
We recently completed the application phase of our Ukrainian
innovation fund competition, and no fewer than 295 proposals
designed to deliver capability to our friends in the Ukraine in
the very short term were submitted from 205 different companies.
Many are being closely scrutinised, including 17 that have been
shortlisted for immediate attention, and I am proud to say that
the majority of contributors were SMEs.
As we have seen from recent events in Ukraine, air combat is
incredibly important to maintaining our national security and
also, as has been mentioned, to maintaining our economic
security-supporting businesses, such as Middleton-based MSM in my
constituency. Can my hon. Friend tell me what is being done to
ensure that the RAF retains its cutting-edge capabilities?
A brilliantly topical question, if I may say so, with Farnborough
taking place this very week. I was delighted to announce last
Friday at the Royal International Air Tattoo our £2.3 billion
investment in ECRS mark 2 radar. This British-made world-leading
electronic warfare capability will transform our combat air. It
is just one example of how we will continue to invest in combat
air as we develop our next generation future combat air system
programme. We are currently investing some £2 billion into FCAS,
with industry and international partners likewise investing in
what will be an extraordinary combat capability.
(Rochdale) (Lab)
A few moments ago, the Defence Secretary mentioned Typhoon and
the advantages of international co-operation. Is this Government,
post Brexit, prepared to have a clear strategy to say that
co-operation across Europe is in the interests of defence jobs
here in the United Kingdom?
It is absolutely the case that co-operation across Europe is
helpful to our own defence sector and to the capabilities of the
entire western alliance. A couple of weeks ago, I was there to
celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Organisation for Joint
Armament Co-operation, a major procurement hub that we do jointly
with the Germans, the Belgians, the Spanish and the Italians.
There are umpteen programmes, including Typhoon, to which the
hon. Gentleman referred, and Boxer, on which we work very
closely. Indeed, the ECRS mark 2 programme to which I have just
referred will be integrated by a P4E integration programme across
our Typhoon partners. It is absolutely right that we work with
all our allies across NATO and they include many of our European
friends.
Mr Speaker
We now come to the shadow Minister, .
(Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
If this is indeed the last Defence questions for the present
Defence team, I would like to place on record my thanks to the
Minister for Defence Procurement for his kindness and generosity
since I started shadowing him over a year ago. He is well known
in the House for his attention to detail and he has been a
formidable opponent for me.
“Complacent”, “too traditional”, and “resistant to change or
criticism” are some of the words used to describe the Department
by the Public Accounts Committee. With a new urgency for
innovation due to the clear and present danger created by the war
in Ukraine, and with deep concerns that the Department cannot
manage large projects such as Dreadnought, is the Minister
confident that the Department can deliver the new battle-winning
capabilities this country needs, on time and in budget?
I very much thank the hon. Gentleman, my shadow, for his
question, which started so well. I am very grateful and I hope
that we continue our ongoing relationship across the Dispatch
Box. I understand his concerns. They have been voiced by the PAC
and we have responded to the concerns raised. I am afraid that I
am a details bore, and we do go through the projects project by
project. Defence procurement is never easy—it is a tough thing to
get right—and I have not yet found a state anywhere on earth that
can really deliver to the kind of standards that I am sure the
hon. Gentleman would wish to see. What I do know is that, in
Defence Equipment and Support and throughout the MOD, we have
people who are doing a great job. They are becoming more
professional, and senior responsible owners are spending more
time on the projects. We are making sure that projects are
properly set up to succeed at the start and ensuring that they
are properly funded. It is that combination, along with working
through the defence and security industrial strategy with British
companies, that will get us the results we all wish to see.
China: Countering Threats
(Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
(SNP)
6. What steps his Department plans to take to counter threats
originating in China in the context of the 2022 NATO Strategic
Concept and joint address from the heads of MI5 and the FBI.
(901118)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence ()
I hope you will indulge me, Mr Speaker, as I recognise my
counterpart Volodymyr Havrylov, the Ukrainian deputy Defence
Minister, who joined us in the UK this week as we went to see the
Ukrainian troops and sailors in training.
The Ministry of Defence and the whole of Government are taking
active steps to counter state threats from China. In line with
the NATO strategic concept, we are working with allies to
increase our shared understanding and to protect against China’s
coercive tactics. Together with other Departments, we have
strengthened investment screening, the academic technology
approval scheme and our export control regimes.
The director general of MI5 has said:
“The most game-changing challenge we face comes from the Chinese
Communist Party.”
At the last count, the UK Foreign Office had some 63 Mandarin
speakers. Can the Minister tell us how many the Ministry of
Defence has?
No. I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman.
(Elmet and Rothwell)
(Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the emerging threats from China
show NATO was right to make cyber and space among the key
frontiers, along with the traditional three, and that, when
looking at defence procurement and how money is spent, we are
world leading in these vital areas of defence?
I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend, but we should not
think that our competition with China is exclusively concentrated
on the high-end warfighting capabilities that may or may not be
required in the first and second island chains. Every single
week, we compete with China for influence around the world.
Maintaining the defence effort across the global south to protect
our interests around the Commonwealth is every bit as important
as preparing to stand alongside the US in anything that might
happen in the Pacific.
Ukrainian Resistance to Russian Aggression
(Colne Valley) (Con)
7. What assessment his Department has made of the effectiveness
of Ukrainian resistance to Russian aggression. (901119)
The Secretary of State for Defence ( )
There have been multiple reports of Ukrainian resistance and
partisan activity in areas under Russian control, particularly in
the south of the country. This has likely forced Russia to
dedicate additional security personnel to areas it has occupied.
Russia has deported 2.5 million people from Ukraine to Russia
through filtration camps, and it has also likely detained and
interrogated thousands of Ukrainians to try to quell the
resistance. Such action will not deter Ukraine, and it will not
deter the United Kingdom from continuing to support Ukraine in
her fight.
Following the Prime Minister’s generous offer to train up to
10,000 Ukrainian soldiers here in the UK, I was delighted to see
the first cohort arrive earlier this month. How does the Defence
Secretary assess the success of this programme so far, and how
does he see it evolving over the summer?
Mr Wallace
I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has visited the sites, but I
am delighted to have visited one of the sites twice. The first
course completes this week, and it has been a learning experience
for both sides. We will continue to invest in improving the
course, and I am delighted that the international community has
now joined us. The Dutch have declared that they will send people
to support the training, and the New Zealanders were already here
to help the Ukrainians on 105-mm artillery. We are talking with a
number of other international partners about delivery.
It is amazing to see men aged from 18 to 50—some women will soon
be part of the deployment—who sometimes got on the plane in
tracksuits, being trained in basic battlefield skills, the law of
armed conflict and so on. It is quite sobering that they will go
from here to a war zone, where many of them will tragically make
the ultimate sacrifice.
(Rhondda) (Lab)
Putin obviously thought the west would fracture at the beginning,
and it is good that the west has not fractured so far. It is also
good that lots of different countries in the western alliance are
providing military hardware, some of it lethal, to Ukraine, but
one problem Ukraine is facing is that each country has procured
something slightly different, and Ukrainian personnel have to be
trained in how to use each of those different pieces of
equipment. If we really are to stay in this for the long haul,
will we not have to start developing military equipment that we
can all give together so that Ukrainian personnel need only one
training session rather than 34?
Mr Wallace
Yes. One strength of NATO is its adherence to standards across
all the nations in it. At the moment, Ukraine is transiting from
using Soviet era calibres and so on to using western weapons
systems, which is why it is important to help train Ukraine in
their application; they are not one in, one out—they need to be
used differently. Having helped establish the international donor
co-ordination centre near Stuttgart, Britain has added training
into that, so we co-ordinate that properly. Most countries use
that and engage, so that this is co-ordinated: we do not double
book and we get this in the right place. I urge any other
international partner who is thinking of offering training to
co-ordinate through that system.
(Rayleigh and Wickford)
(Con)
The Ukrainians are putting up a valiant and skilful resistance
against Russian aggression, but we understand that they are
currently losing about 100 men a day, with many more wounded.
Given that rate of casualties in modern warfare, and given that
the integrated review was published long before the Russian
invasion, does the Secretary of State agree with me and many
other Conservative colleagues that the supposed 10,000 cuts in
the Army, which the new Chief of the General Staff has called
“perverse”, should not only be reviewed, but completely
reversed?
Mr Wallace
As we can see from our Conservative colleagues, defence spending
is a key priority in the leadership race, and I recommend to all
leadership candidates who are wanting votes from Conservative
Members that they recognise its importance. The threat has
changed and it warrants more spending on defence, because the
world is more dangerous and anxious than it was—not only when we
had the defence Command Paper but before Putin invaded.
(Swansea West)
(Lab/Co-op)
Will the Secretary of State today give an undertaking that the
level of defence support to Ukraine in the next six months, both
in value and in volume, will be as much as it was in the previous
six months?
Mr Wallace
With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, I will not categorise
it in six-month blocks. As long as I am Defence Secretary, we
will continue with the investment and the support to Ukraine, be
it in hardware or software. Will it continue through third
parties? Yes, it will. Obviously, I cannot speak for the next
Prime Minister, but I can say that all the candidates have
clearly made a statement to such effect. It is important that we
do not give up on this and we carry on, whoever comes in the next
Government and after the next election. Putin’s one calculation
is that we will all get bored and go back to doing other things.
That is how Russia wins, but we are not going to let it win; we
must stick at it, for as long as it takes.
Mr Speaker
I call the SNP spokesperson, Stewart M. McDonald.
(Glasgow South)
(SNP)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I, too, say that no matter what might
happen in the reshuffle following the summer, the Ministry of
Defence has worked co-operatively, particularly on Ukraine,
during these past months? Whoever takes over or stays in place,
it is to the benefit of all of us that that continues, whoever
the new Prime Minister might be. Who knows, that job in Brussels
might be what is waiting for the Secretary of State later this
year. The situation in south and eastern Ukraine is getting much
worse. Indeed, just in the past few days the Russian Defence
Minister Shoigu has ordered an intensification of attacks on
those parts of the country. With winter just around the corner,
that is the point where there is the potential for allies to be
picked off, although I do not lay that accusation at the
Secretary of State’s door. Will he ensure that the training being
given by the UK keeps pace with what is needed for that
intensification and helps get the armed forces of Ukraine through
the winter?
Mr Wallace
Let me thank the hon. Gentleman as well. I have never doubted the
desire of anyone in this House to keep this country safe, no
matter whether they are SNP, Labour, Liberal Democrat or anyone
else, and I pay tribute to his constructive manner. We are
learning as we go on the training. We started with a pledge to
10,000. As I said this morning in a meeting, I would be perfectly
understanding if it ended up being 20,000 or if the Ukrainians
sought to switch it at some stage to do something else. The
casualties figures were given earlier by the former Armed Forces
Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and
Wickford (Mr Francois), and they have dropped for now, which is a
good thing. Russia is facing the consequences of the HIMARS–high
mobility artillery rocket system—and I can confirm to the House
that our guided multiple launch rocket system is now in country
and active, delivering the same munitions. That is having a
significant effect on the Russians’ ability to prosecute the war.
As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, the key is to get through the
summer and make sure Ukraine is ready for the winter, and then we
can continue to start pushing back Russia’s aggressive
invasion.
Armed Forces: Size Targets
(Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
(SNP)
8. What assessment he has made of the potential merits of
maintaining current targets for the size of the armed forces in
response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. (901120)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence ()
We continue to assess the threat posed by Russia and other
competitors around the world. As my right hon. Friend the
Secretary of State has just said in response to my right hon.
Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), we
are, of course, excited to see defence spending play such a
prominent role in the leadership debate. We look forward to
working with the new Prime Minister to assess the threat and look
at what changes to defence capability might be needed
thereafter.
As has been said, cutting 10,000 troops came from the integrated
review, which predates Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The outgoing
Chief of the General Staff has said that he is
“not comfortable with an Army of just 73,000”,
and has stated that the capability
of the fighting force is
“well below what it should be”.—[Official Report, House of Lords,
27 June 2022; Vol. 823, c. 438.]
Given the answers we have heard from the Dispatch Box about
increased spending, does that mean that Government Front Benchers
agree that the cut of 10,000 should be reversed and that a much
larger Army is required?
Nobody in the Ministry of Defence will ever argue against more
money being spent on defence, but let us be clear: if more money
were made available, there are other things that we would do more
immediately than regrow the size of the Army. There are things
that we would want to do about the lethality and deployability of
the current force, to get more from what we have at the moment.
If thereafter there is a discussion about regrowing, great, but
there are other things that we would do first.
(South West Wiltshire)
(Con)
Autonomous weapons systems are likely to be force multipliers in
the future. To what extent does that impact on the Minister’s
assessment of manpower? What doctrine does he believe will be
needed to govern their use, and how is he recruiting soldiers
with the skillsets necessary to handle them effectively?
My right hon. Friend makes a really important point. Autonomy is
increasingly the key to the successful generation of overwhelming
force in the battle space. That is a key part of the integrated
review and within the defence industrial strategy. It may well be
that a more lethal force—even a bigger force—does not necessarily
acquire more workforce in the future if that is the way in which
the trend continues to go.
Cost of Living: Armed Forces Personnel
(Motherwell and Wishaw)
(SNP)
9. What recent assessment his Department has made of the impact
of the rise in the cost of living on armed forces personnel.
(901121)
(Edinburgh South West)
(SNP)
16. What recent assessment his Department has made of the impact
of the rise in the cost of living on armed forces personnel.
(901129)
The Minister for Defence People and Veterans ()
Our mitigating measures on the cost of living include a freeze of
the daily food charge. We are limiting the increase in
accommodation charges to 1%, and we are ensuring that the council
tax rebate of £150 reaches more than 28,000 of our armed forces
people. We are also, of course, bringing in wraparound childcare
in time for the new school year.
Will the Minister confirm that the cost of a new £250 million
royal yacht, whose principal use will be for champagne
receptions, is not coming out of the Ministry of Defence budget
during a cost of living crisis, when personnel have not received
a real-terms rise for a number of years and while bases in
Scotland have been closed and we have the smallest UK standing
Army ever?
The hon. Lady makes a flippant point. The serious point is that
this new vessel will deliver jobs right across the United
Kingdom.
Notwithstanding the Government’s cuts to the armed forces
footprint in Scotland, including at Redford barracks in my
constituency, over the years Scots have played a very active role
in the defence of their country. Yet despite being injured in
service, many veterans over 65 in the lowest-income households
miss out on pension credit because their war disablement pension
is considered as normal income. What steps is the Minister taking
to persuade his counterpart at the Department for Work and
Pensions to address this anomaly, to help our veterans cope with
the rise in the cost of living?
We take any potential anomaly extremely seriously, and I would be
pleased to meet the hon. and learned Lady to discuss that
specific case. If I may make a general point, it is a bit rich to
be told to take lessons on the cost of living from the Scottish
National party, given its tax hike on armed forces personnel.
There are 7,000 personnel in Scotland who pay £850 more on
average, thanks to the SNP tax hike, which should be reviewed. It
is absolutely outrageous.
(Barnsley East) (Lab)
The Government’s own figures show that at least 33,000 veterans
are on universal credit, and estimates suggest the actual figure
could be double that, so why does the Government’s veterans
strategy cut specialist employment support in jobcentres—which
would help veterans on universal credit who are out of work get
back into employment—by 50%?
We on the Conservative Benches will not perpetuate the myth that
receiving universal credit is a bad thing. Many of these people
are in high-paid and good jobs. It is a reflection of the fact
that this Government support people into work and that military
service gives them skills for life.
Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy
(Manchester, Withington)
(Lab)
10. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the
effectiveness of the Afghan relocations and assistance policy.
(901122)
(Carshalton and Wallington)
(Con)
14. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the
effectiveness of the Afghan relocations and assistance policy.
(901127)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence ()
The Afghan relocations and assistance policy scheme has had more
than 100,000 applications. Although I appreciation the
desperation of many who apply, the reality is that staff numbers
and even names of those who worked with us in Helmand are being
shared, so it is hard to identify individual applicants. To that
end—the entitlement is bound; we know who worked for us— last
week, I engaged a number of non-governmental organisations and
charities to help us find the people on the list of those who
actually worked with us, so that we can bring them to the front
of the queue and get them out as quickly as possible.
Ministers confirmed last month that around 8,000 Afghans and
their families could still be eligible for relocation to the UK
under the ARAP scheme. The Minister says that it is hard to
identify those people, so what specifically are Ministers doing
to identify them, to establish pathways to get them here, and to
process their applications as quickly as possible?
I think the hon. Gentleman might realise that I have answered
that question in my original answer. We think that there are
about 2,000 principals—people who actually worked with us—yet to
bring out. Rather than going through tens of thousands of
applications, we are asking those with networks in-country to
help us find those 2,000 people on the list. We have the capacity
and the routes to bring them out. The challenge is finding them
when a huge number of applications are gaming the system, with
dozens of applications coming in on the same staff number, which
should be the individual identifier.
I thank the MOD’s Afghan relocation team who are working
tirelessly to identify and process the huge number of
applications including friends and relatives of Carshalton and
Wallington residents. How many individuals have made it to the UK
under the ARAP scheme since Operation Pitting concluded?
A total of 9,962 people have come out under ARAP, 2,984 of whom
have come out since Op Pitting.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister, .
(Plymouth, Sutton and
Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
We are now only a few weeks away from the one-year anniversary of
the start of Operation Pitting, the evacuation from Kabul. A year
on, thousands of Afghan citizens are still waiting for their
applications to be properly processed, too many are still in
temporary accommodation, and the promises made to many of them
about relocation and family reunions have been left unhonoured.
With the one-year anniversary a few weeks away, what will the
Minister be doing to speed up this incredibly slow process, so
the promises that this country made to those Afghans who worked
with our armed forces can truly be honoured?
The hon. Gentleman probably just heard me answer the previous two
questions. There are hundreds of thousands of applications, many
of which are duplicates, and many of which are from people who
have no eligibility under ARAP whatsoever. ARAP is a very tightly
bound scheme. It is not the same as the Afghan citizens
resettlement scheme or other mechanisms where each case might be
judged on its merits. There is a list of people who worked with
the British armed forces in Afghanistan, so our focus must be on
finding the people on that list and bringing them out. We are
doing so quickly.
The hon. Gentleman says that it has been nearly a year. That is
correct, Mr Speaker, but it is not as if we can just wander
around in Afghanistan and find these people. It is not
straightforward. A lot of them are undocumented. He may want to
speak to some of the charities that are working on this, as I
know that some of his colleagues on the Back Benches do. When I
spoke to them last week, they realised that the situation was
exactly as I have said: it is not easy; people do not have
documents; and we are working fast to get people out. We think we
have found of way of doing so quicker, and we will be getting on
with it now.
Defence Business Services
(Bootle) (Lab)
11. What plans he has to restructure Defence Business Services.
(901123)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
The hon. Gentleman has raised this with me on more than one
occasion previously. I know that it matters greatly to his
constituents. As announced back in 2016, Defence Business
Services will consolidate its north-west estate into a single
location. Last year, a thorough multi-criteria decision analysis
was undertaken, which considered a number of locations and
recommended consolidation in Blackpool. The full business case is
being considered within the approvals process. I expect to make
an announcement soon, and will write to the Members representing
the constituencies affected.
I thank the Minister for Defence Procurement for his answer, and
for procuring some continuity in the Government, against the
odds, by remaining in his post during this crucial time. Will he
consider bringing the hubs in Liverpool and Manchester into the
Defence Business Services workplace programme solution to avoid
compulsory redundancies?
What I can say is that in locating to Blackpool, as was
recommended, we will do our utmost to avoid compulsory
redundancies. There is a good working relationship at a local
level with the trade unions, which are doing well to represent
their members. There is an absolute expectation on our part that
we will maximise the ability to work flexibly, with things such
as deferred moves and everything else we can do to support our
employees. This move was designed not to cut posts, but as an
estate rationalisation scheme. That is at the back and the front
of our minds, and we will work with the trade unions and our
employees to ensure as few redundancies as can possibly be
managed.
(Blackpool North and
Cleveleys) (Con)
I thank the Minister for moving so many of the jobs to Blackpool
and to my constituency—yet one more to add to my list of
wonderful things the Government have done for the town of
Blackpool. Will he encourage all Government Departments, not just
the MOD, to share his vision and his confidence in the people of
my constituency?
I know we are not alone in putting Government jobs into
Blackpool; it is a popular location, and it was entirely driven
by the intensive work we did on finding the best location. I can
reassure my hon. Friend and this House that we undertook a very
serious bit of work looking at all available options, and the
recommendation of Blackpool emerged as a result of that serious
analysis.
Topical Questions
(West Dorset) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental
responsibilities.(901138)
The Secretary of State for Defence ( )
I would like to update the House on the exciting progress of the
United Kingdom’s future combat air system programme, Tempest. At
Farnborough international airshow this week, our industry and
international partners are showcasing the new FCAS capabilities,
demonstrating the momentum we have achieved. Today, I can
announce that a flying demonstrator aircraft is being developed
by the UK MOD and Italian industry. This piloted combat air
demonstrator will fly for the first time within the next five
years and is an important step in ensuring that our technology
skills and industrial capability are ready for the future. I am
delighted that the UK is working alongside Italy, Japan and
Sweden on the same combat air journey. We intend to take
collaborative decisions by the end of the year.
Will my right hon. Friend update the House on progress being made
with the new medium-sized helicopter procurement, noting that
Leonardo Helicopters in Yeovil is the only end-to-end helicopter
manufacturer in the UK and supports hundreds of jobs in West
Dorset? I would like to make the case again for the AW149.
Mr Wallace
I reassure my hon. Friend that he will have plenty of opportunity
to lobby on behalf of his constituents and others in the
south-west. The new medium helicopter competition will align with
the defence and security industrial strategy; the competition’s
contract notice and dynamic pre-qualification questionnaire were
released on 18 May this year and responses are now being
evaluated to determine a shortlist of credible suppliers. The
second half of the competition, in which we will ask the selected
suppliers to provide more detailed responses, is due to be
launched later this year.
Mr Speaker
I call , the shadow Secretary of
State.
(Wentworth and Dearne)
(Lab)
When the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Wells (), answered my urgent question
on Thursday about new public allegations about British special
forces in Afghanistan, he said that,
“the Secretary of State is clear that he rules nothing out”.
He also said:
“I am certain that the House will hear from him in the near
future.”—[Official Report, 14 July 2022; Vol. 718, c. 494.]
With the summer recess starting on Thursday, when will the
Secretary of State make a statement to the House on this?
Mr Wallace
I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s interest. It is an
incredibly important allegation that has been made, which none of
us takes lightly. Mr Speaker, you waived at the time the sub
judice rule; as the right hon. Gentleman will know, there is a
matter before the courts that may determine that timetable and
precludes my guessing when I can make certain decisions. What I
can say in the meantime is that I think the right hon. Gentleman
is due for a briefing on this matter. We have a date for him on
that, and I am happy to oblige the SNP Front Bench as well if
they wish to get it. We take everything seriously. This is
incredibly important, but we can only act on the evidence before
us. People need to remember that we cannot act based on noises
off. We will always act on the evidence put before us, but this
is a matter for the independent police and prosecutor.
(Berwickshire, Roxburgh and
Selkirk) (Con)
T2. I am a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee, which
recently welcomed the increase in military capacity in Scotland,
especially in the light of the Russian aggression. What plans do
the Government have to ensure that Scotland remains at the heart
of the United Kingdom’s defence capacity?(901139)
Mr Wallace
Our plans are to keep Scotland within the United Kingdom, because
it is in the best interests of England, Scotland, Northern
Ireland and Wales to all be part of a greater Union providing
security for each other. We are better together.
Mr Speaker
I call SNP spokesperson .
(Glasgow South)
(SNP)
I want to return to the issue that the shadow Secretary of State
raised—not the individual allegations or even the “Panorama”
programme, but the wider issue of the unanswerable case for
democratic oversight of special forces. When will the Department
devise proposals, bring them to the House, and allow us to debate
and legislate on that issue? Surely that does not require
anything at all from the courts.
Mr Wallace
Indeed it does not, and the hon. Gentleman is perfectly at
liberty to table a motion and have a debate in this House.
[Interruption.] He says, “Come on!”, but I cannot remember one.
The key is making sure that democratically elected Ministers in
this House have oversight of our special forces, and we are also
bound by law in the same way that anyone else is. There is no
exception to the law, whether through investigational powers or
the operational prerogative on which we deploy our forces.
(Ruislip, Northwood and
Pinner) (Con)
T4. I have heard from a number of Ukrainians now resident in my
constituency how much they value the work of my right hon. Friend
the Secretary of State to support their armed forces. What
lessons are we going to learn from our work to supply ordnance
and equipment to the armed forces in Ukraine that will inform our
future plans for maintaining appropriate stocks of weapons and
equipment?(901141)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence ()
We learn an awful lot from watching the way that modern conflict
is being prosecuted in Ukraine, and that is indeed shaping our
analysis of the stockpiles we need to hold, particularly given
the intensity of the modern artillery battle.
(Manchester, Withington)
(Lab)
T3. This October will see the 70th anniversary of the British
nuclear tests. What are Ministers doing to formally recognise our
nuclear veterans ahead of that date?(901140)
The Minister for Defence People and Veterans ()
I recently met the families, alongside the Prime Minister. I
committed at that meeting to instruct the MOD to look afresh at
the case to be made, and that work is ongoing.
(Stockton South) (Con)
T7. At the National Memorial Arboretum, 306 wooden stakes
represent the 306 soldiers who were wrongly shot at dawn and
subsequently pardoned. One of those is George Hunter from
Stockton, who left behind a wife and two children to enlist in
the Durham Light Infantry. Despite being pardoned in 2006,
Private Hunter and his comrades have still not been posthumously
awarded their medals. Will the Secretary of State meet me to
discuss how we can get these heroes the medals and recognition
that they deserve?(901144)
I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for the work he does
for the armed forces in his constituency. Of course this a very
serious matter, so I am happy to confirm that we will look at it
and I will write to him.
(Rutherglen and Hamilton
West) (Ind)
T5. What steps are being taken to address the urgent shortage of
translators for UK and Ukraine training exercises while ensuring
that adequate proficiency in the language is a key requirement?
Some concerns have been raised that the fluency level currently
being accepted is not high enough.(901142)
Those are not concerns that I have heard reflected. I have
visited the artillery training that was taking place at
Rollestone camp, the Secretary of State has been to visit Warcop
twice, and tomorrow I am going to Knook camp in Wiltshire with my
Ukrainian counterpart. I can assure the hon. Lady that while my
experience of the interpreters has been amazingly positive, if
there are any shortcomings we will make sure they are
rectified.
(Bracknell) (Con)
Bracknell constituency is very proud to have a new veterans’ hub
at Crowthorne fire station, and my thanks go to the Royal
Berkshire Fire and Rescue Service. What additional provision
might be available for communities wanting to provide local
support for veterans?
I put on record my thanks to my hon. Friend for his
characteristic support for armed forces personnel and veterans in
his constituency. The hub is clearly an important thing, and
those people should be made aware of opportunities for support
coming from the Armed Forces Covenant Fund Trust, which he will
know well.
(Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
(SNP)
T6. If I gave the Secretary of State £250 million, would he
invest it in another Type 31 frigate, in other defence capability
we are missing out on, or in a royal yacht whose sole purpose is
supposed to be for signing new trade deals?(901143)
Mr Wallace
I will invest in whatever furthers Britain’s national interest. I
totally understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. He
will understand, although perhaps not from the west coast of
Scotland, the importance of the royal yacht, because the number
of people who pay money to go and look at it in Edinburgh, where
it is currently tied up, is incredible. It is very popular.
(Totnes) (Con)
The two voluntary outflow reasons for personnel from the armed
forces tend to be that there are greater opportunities outside
the military and the impact on family life. The Minister has done
extraordinary work, so what assessment has he made of the armed
forces families strategy and how it will take account of those
two issues?
The strategy is an important piece of work. We launched it in
January, and we will keep the House up to date. We acknowledge
that we recruit the armed forces personnel, but we retain the
families. We want to give them flexibility and choice, and we
look forward to reporting back.
(Paisley and Renfrewshire
North) (SNP)
T8. I have met Airspace Unlimited, which is creating an airspace
optimisation tool for defence airspace, which will assist the
RAF’s ambition to be net zero by 2040 with an added benefit of
supporting vital defence training for fifth and sixth-generation
combat aircraft. Does the Minister agree about the importance of
that and of supporting such initiatives through a defence and
security accelerator?(901145)
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
I do agree. I think there are huge opportunities, and the hon.
Gentleman correctly points out that the RAF has an ambition of
2040 for net zero. We are investing a lot of money, including
£2.35 billion into the European common radar system or ECRS Mark
2, a prime recipient of which will be Edinburgh. Scottish
companies have a lot of other opportunities to bring to our
attention, and we will happily look at them.
(North Wiltshire) (Con)
I think it was at his keynote speech to the land warfare
conference that the Chief of the General Staff made his
oft-quoted remarks that this was “our 1937 moment”, that it was
“perverse” to cut 10,000 people from the Army and that we would
be at risk of being “outnumbered” in the event of warfare. Can
the Secretary of State tell me whether that speech was cleared
through his office before CGS gave it?
Mr Wallace
Some of the characteristics that my hon. Friend mentions were not
in the speech. The Chief of the General Staff did not say it was
perverse to cut 10,000 troops—he did say it was a 1937 moment.
The important thing about 1937 was not only that General
Montgomery had talked about mobilisation, but that he had talked
about ensuring that the force was relevant. If you have a big
mass force that is irrelevant to modern technology, you end up
like Russia, stuck on the road to Kyiv—wiped out.
(Glasgow North East)
(SNP)
T9. Mr Speaker, you will be pleased to know I have a very short
question that could be answered with one word. Will serving
personnel receive an above-inflation pay rise this
year?(901146)
We look forward to making an announcement in due course.
(Ludlow) (Con)
I start by congratulating my right hon. and hon. Friends on the
Defence Front-Bench team for the competence, clarity and
steadfastness they have shown, particularly in recent months in
proposing the UK contribution to Ukraine. When my hon. Friend the
Minister for Defence Procurement visits Farnborough, will he find
time to attend the joint economic data hub hosted by the UK
Defence Solutions Centre, which demonstrates to Her Majesty’s
Treasury that £1 invested in defence has a multiplier of more
than £1?
In a packed programme, I will do my utmost to visit the JEDHub
centre. My right hon. Friend is too modest to point out that that
came out of a recommendation from the Dunne report. It was a
valuable recommendation, and knowing exactly what defence
investment means for our economy is very good news for defence
and very good news for the United Kingdom.
(Kingston upon Hull West and
Hessle) (Lab)
T10. A couple of months ago I was delighted to spend an evening
with some Fijian veterans, and a good fun evening was had by all.
I was able to express to them my personal thanks for their
services to the British armed forces. I recognise the progress
that has been made on visa fees for Fijian veterans, but will the
Minister look at cancelling the costs of visas for Fijian
servicemen and women’s spouses as well?(901147)
The point is that it is all about fairness, and we must not
disadvantage any comparable British soldier in the same
circumstances, so currently there are no plans to extend that
measure to family members.
(Lichfield) (Con)
It is thanks to the team on the Front Bench and the Prime
Minister that I am still able to wear this badge showing the
Ukrainian flag, because had it not been for the supply of
next-generation light anti-tank weapons some three to four months
before the invasion, the Russians would be in Kyiv now. May I ask
my right hon. Friend whether he is satisfied that we will still
be able to maintain the supply of ammunition that the Ukrainians
naturally need?
Mr Wallace
We are able to do that, and where we do not have our own stocks,
alongside international partners and donors we scour the world to
find them and make sure that we have them. Ukraine and Russia are
both discovering that a prolonged battle is very hard to manage
with their own stocks. Russia is now using very old equipment,
some of which came out in the 1950s, and using it incorrectly—for
example, using equipment designed to kill a ship to hit a
building.
(Ogmore) (Lab)
Complaints about service accommodation have rocketed in the first
four months of this year, and are 20% higher than last year. Can
Ministers explain why, and say how they plan to rectify this
urgently, given the already undue pressure experienced by
families and those who are married to someone in the armed
forces?
We take these issues extremely seriously. That is why we have
invested more than £936 million in service family accommodation
in the last seven years, and there is more coming. Under the
future accommodation model, we want to give choice, flexibility,
and accommodation of the highest possible standard to those
living in service family accommodation.
(Salford and Eccles)
(Lab)
British nuclear testing veterans and their families met the Prime
Minister, Defence Ministers, the right hon. Member for South
Holland and The Deepings ( ) and me on 8 June. The veterans
told me that they felt that the Prime Minister had listened to
them, and they were hopeful that they would be formally
recognised. Will the Secretary of State provide a progress report
on the actions that he and the Prime Minister have taken since
the meeting to secure the recognition that these veterans so
deserve?
It was my great pleasure to be at that meeting, and I am happy to
write to the hon. Lady with an update.
(South Shields) (Lab)
Despite stark warnings from successive Chiefs of the Defence
Staff and others about the vulnerability of our undersea cables
in the light of increased Russian submarine activity, it took
until 2021 for the Government to announce that they would acquire
a multi-role ocean surveillance ship to protect that critical
infrastructure. It was recently reported that the Government
still have not decided on the capability required, a procurement
strategy, or an in-service date. Why is that?
We are looking closely at how we take forward MROSS. As the hon.
Lady suggests, it was an important step to make that part of the
defence Command Paper in spring ’21. We said that we would ensure
that we brought that capability into service, but we need to get
it right, and considerable work is continuing on what exactly
that capability should look like.
(Twickenham) (LD)
“Meritorious” was the word that the Prime Minister used in this
House to describe the application made under the Afghan
relocations and assistance policy scheme by a former Supreme
Court of Afghanistan judge who put hundreds of terrorists behind
bars, undoubtedly saving British lives. I was promised a meeting
with Ministers on the subject; that never materialised, and
suddenly, out of the blue, his ARAP application was turned down
last week because he was deemed to have not worked closely enough
with the UK Government. I plead with Ministers to meet me to
review this hero’s case, because I have no doubt that he will be
hunted down and slaughtered by the Taliban if we do not bring him
to safety.
The hon. Lady and I walked through the Lobby together the other
week—it was one of the rare occasions on which we were in the
same Lobby—and were able to discuss this case. I asked the team
to look at it. ARAP is a very tightly bound scheme for those who
worked with the British armed forces, and the person for whom she
is advocating did not. There are other routes by which that
person can come to this country, including through the Afghan
citizens resettlement scheme, and I will make sure that she is
connected with the appropriate Minister on that.
(Barnsley Central) (Lab)
Will we be left without a low-level parachute capability when
Hercules goes out of service? If so, can Ministers say how long
our airborne forces will be grounded while Atlas is upgraded?
Mr Wallace
I took steps immediately to close the gap, if there was one, in
that last year we purchased a significant number of new
parachutes off the shelf. The hon. Gentleman will be aware, given
his interest in airborne forces, that both the German and French
air forces have on numerous occasions jumped out of A400s, and it
is odd that we have not yet done that, so that is not the reason
why this matter has not progressed. We are making sure that we
have the right equipment and the right training for pilots. We
are on track to do that, but I will give him an update. Just like
him, I think it is incredibly important that the RAF gets on and
does this.
(Tiverton and Honiton)
(LD)
House of Commons Library analysis forecasts that Ministry of
Defence day-to-day spending will be cut by 5.5% in real terms by
2024-25. Can the Secretary of State confirm that this amounts to
a real-terms cut of £1.7 billion over the next three years?
Mr Wallace
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the House. I would also like to
pay tribute to his predecessor as the defence spokesman for the
Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and
Easter Ross (). We served in the Scottish
Parliament together, and he will be missed from this brief.
On the point made by the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton
(), I think that is based on
the new inflation rate. When we got our defence spending in the
comprehensive spending review, the GDP deflator was at 1.5%. As a
result, we have been compensated by the Treasury in the short
term for inflationary pressures, but that will not show in the
core budget until after the accounts are in. However, he is right
to point out that inflationary pressures on a budget such as
ours, with huge amounts of capital, will have an impact. We are
taking steps to try to mitigate that, and I am looking forward to
engaging with the new Prime Minister to make sure we get that
mitigation.
