Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the recently announced
Ocean Surveillance Ship and National Flagship will be built
concurrently; and when those vessels are expected to enter
service with the Royal Navy.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence () (Con)
My Lords, with the new multi-role ocean surveillance programme
announced in the defence Command Paper of 2021 currently in its
concept phase, and the national flagship programme in its design
stage, with a competitive procurement process in progress, it is
too early to discuss build arrangements for the two programmes.
(Lab)
My Lords, five years ago the shipbuilding strategy came out, and
I was impressed and pleased that the Government seemed to have
gripped this very important issue. I said so on the Floor of the
House. However, I said to the Minister that many times over the
years I had been promised ships and had never stood on their
quarterdeck. I have the same feeling with this. We have ordered
five frigates since then and not a single other ship. Three years
ago, we were told that we were ordering three fleet solid support
ships. They are still not ordered. This really worries me. When
it comes to these two ships, does the Minister agree that the
oceanographic surveillance ship is way more important for our
nation and defence than the other ship, because of data links et
cetera going across the Atlantic? With the possibility of a world
war, it is the sort of thing that Putin would have a go at.
(Con)
The noble Lord will not be surprised to learn that I do not share
his pessimism. I am tempted to ask under which government regime
shipbuilding was in such a poor state. Thanks to the national
shipbuilding strategy, we now see one of the most exciting
programmes in UK shipbuilding for decades. That is recognised in
the industry—and in his single service. These are two exciting
prospects. As he knows, the MROS will replace HMS “Scott”. I will
not say that it is a Trojan horse; it is a sturdy reliable
Clydesdale which plods away doing its work. These two boats—
(Lab)
Ships!
(Con)
The noble Lord manages to induce a bit of pessimism in me. These
two ships are a very important addition to the fleet.
(Con)
The original budget for the flagship was some £200 million. The
Defence Secretary now says that it may be up to £250 million.
With inflation running in the shipbuilding pipeline at some 8%,
can my noble friend tell your Lordships’ House potentially what
the upper limit for that budget would be, for the flagship to
continue to offer value for money? Also, when was the last time
that the Government or any Government delivered a warship for its
original budget?
(Con)
I will take the last question first. My noble friend is aware
that very strict procurement rules now govern MoD procurement,
and that the budgets for the Type 26 and Type 31 are very
vigilantly watched. On the possible price range for the national
flagship I cannot be specific about figures but, to put these
sums in perspective, over four years the projected cost amounts
to an impact on the defence budget in the region of 0.1%.
(LD)
My Lords, the ocean surveillance ship has the purpose of
safeguarding critical infrastructure in the north Atlantic. When
it was announced in March 2021, the service date of 2024 was
given, but in a Written Answer last November, the Government said
there was no date for entry into service. Why has the service
date been allowed to drag in that way? In relation to the
national flagship, why is it necessary for a ship whose purpose
is to showcase the United Kingdom’s economy, and to boost trade
and investment, to be provided from the defence budget? The
defence budget is not elastic, although this Government seem to
think so.
(Con)
I remind the noble Lord that the defence budget has one of the
biggest settlements, from this Government, that it has seen in
decades. That includes a period when the noble Lord was active in
support of government. I say to the noble Lord that the MROSS is
a technically complicated ship. It is in its concept and
assessment phase. He will understand the complicated progress
that is then made to the point of being able to talk about
initial operating capability, never mind going into service. It
is an important addition to the fleet.
On the budget of the national flagship, the national flagship
will achieve two things. It will promote the UK in its foreign
policy and security objectives, but it will also be an addition
to the Royal Navy and, by adopting its soft diplomacy role, it
will free up people in the Royal Navy to do other military tasks.
It is a very natural addendum to the MoD.
(CB)
My Lords, I refer to my entry in the register of interests. The
whole point of the ocean surveillance ship was to protect
critical infrastructure pertaining to our digital capability and
communications. I am not disinclined to be optimistic, but it
will take some time before we can protect those cables properly.
Is there any strategy, or any co-ordination with our allies and
NATO, to protect that infrastructure until those ships actually
provide it?
(Con)
As I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord West, we currently have
HMS “Scott” continuing to do very important and necessary work. I
would not want to give any impression that that infrastructure is
not being protected. It is, but what we naturally look to is a
replacement and successor for HMS “Scott”.
(Lab)
My Lords, following on from my noble friend Lord West’s Question,
I think the House will be disappointed that the Minister said
that it was too early to say anything about when the design would
take place, when the ordering would take place and when we can
expect these two ships to be in operational service. Would the
Minister go back to the Ministry of Defence and say that we would
like greater clarity on timing of all this? Furthermore, if it is
the Government’s intention that these ships are built in Britain,
will that be the default position? Should there be one British
tender for either or both of these ships that will see them,
particularly the national British flagship, built in Britain?
(Con)
They are very different ships, as the noble Lord will understand.
The intention is that the National Shipbuilding Office for the
MROSS will seek to maximise the opportunities for UK industry in
these programmes, but within the boundaries of our international
legal obligations. As he is aware, national security will be
attached to the national flagship and it will be built in the UK.
(Con)
My Lords, years ago, we were able to say that there were about 50
destroyers and frigates available for service in the Royal Navy.
What is the present figure and is it sufficient for the threats
that we face?
(Con)
I cannot give my noble friend a precise figure for the entire
fleet of ships, but I can say that, as he is aware, there have
been significant additions in recent years, not least the two
Queen Elizabeth-class carriers. We have an exciting programme of
frigate building for the Type 26 and Type 31 and, of course, we
have the Type 23s continuing in service and supporting. We are
satisfied that we have the capability we need for the tasks that
befall us.
(Lab)
Is it not the case that these ships require crews, and that crews
require uniforms and other facilities on board for domestic
purposes? Therefore, can the Minister give an absolute guarantee
that none of the cotton products will include cotton from
Xinjiang? It is absolutely fundamental, and I am very pleased
that the Minister for Health is sitting next to the Minister,
because exactly the same applies in the NHS. Do not trust the
paperwork. The forensic company Oritain, using element analysis,
can tell from the fabric where the cotton was grown. We do not
want, on flagships for the Royal Navy, cotton produced by slave
labour in China.
(Con)
I do not have that specific information before me, but the noble
Lord’s point is noted and I shall make inquiries.
(LD)
My Lords, I am sure the Minister agrees that much has changed in
the world since the OSS was first conceived and the contract let.
Would the Minister concede that it is inappropriate to stand at
the Dispatch Box and find reasons why this project is being
delayed? It would be more appropriate for the Minister to explain
how it is being expedited and sped up to meet the new world
situation.
(Con)
The MROSS is not a military engagement ship, per se; it is a ship
that will do important surveillance activity, with reference to
our subsea cables and energy infrastructure. I do not for one
minute disagree: it is an important project; the MoD recognises
that, but it is complex. That is why proper regard to due process
must be taken.
(CB)
My Lords, in the context of Ukraine, can the noble Baroness say
what role the Royal Navy is playing in deterring Russian
aggression? Given that there are 25 million tonnes of grain
blockaded in ports around the Black Sea, what advice is the Royal
Navy giving, particularly to neutral countries and their navies,
to get that food out to feed starving people in the Horn of
Africa?
(Con)
As the noble Lord is aware, maritime activity in the Black Sea is
governed by the Montreux convention, which Turkey has deployed.
For the moment, that restricts activity. The United Kingdom
Government are consulting with allies and partners on how on
earth we can try to get some of that grain shipped, either by sea
or by land.
