Extracts from Scottish Parliament Questions to the First Minister: Scotrail - May 19

ScotRail (Disruption to Services)

1. Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

I begin by recognising the incredible achievement of Rangers Football Club in reaching last night’s Europa league final in Seville. It was a significant achievement not only for the club, but for Scottish football. For 120 minutes, the two teams could not be separated. I know that it is difficult for a club to lose any match on penalties, but to lose a major European final on penalties will be particularly hard to take. However, I think that the Parliament can agree that Rangers did Scottish football proud last night in Seville. [Applause.]

When Nicola Sturgeon’s Government took over the running of Scotland’s railways just last month, the First Minister promised that passenger services would be “efficient”, “sustainable” and “fit for the future”, but in the seven weeks since the Scottish National Party took control of ScotRail passengers have faced chaos and disruption. Every day, hundreds of services have been cancelled, often at the very last minute. Will the First Minister apologise to the thousands—[Interruption.]

“Here we go”, SNP members say. Well, yes—here we go. Will the First Minister apologise to the thousands of passengers who have faced disruption since the SNP took control of Scotland’s railways?

The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon)

I appreciate the opportunity to address the rail issue. I will do so directly, but first I, too, want to take the opportunity to pay tribute to Rangers Football Club. Last night’s result was heartbreaking for the team and for the club’s many, many fans. However, the achievement of getting to the final was considerable. Rangers played extremely well last night—it was a gutsy performance—so, despite the disappointment that I know the team, everybody associated with it, the many fans in Seville and those who watched the match across Scotland will feel today, they should also feel extremely proud of their team. The team did Scottish football and Scotland proud last night, and I congratulate it on that achievement.

I turn to rail services. I appreciate the opportunity to address an important issue that is of significant concern to rail passengers. I say at the outset that I always express apologies to anybody who does not get the standard of service that they deserve, whether from our rail services or any other public services.

ScotRail has taken the decision to put in place a temporary timetable. That has been made necessary by the decision, as part of a pay dispute, of some drivers not to take up the option of overtime Sunday and rest-day working. ScotRail considered that issue and, in consultation with Transport Focus—which is the organisation that represents passengers—decided that a temporary timetable was preferable to unplanned cancellations. However, I stress—I make this point very strongly—that it is vital to get the timetable back to normal as quickly as possible. I expect ScotRail to review the temporary arrangements regularly: indeed, they are due to be formally reviewed on 3 June.

Two points are material in that regard. First, it is important to seek to reach an agreement—a fair agreement—on pay as quickly as possible. Right now, train drivers earn around £50,000 a year, before overtime. Notwithstanding that, this is a tough time for everyone. Everyone wants a fair pay award, but it is required that all pay awards be affordable.

Secondly, ScotRail continues to reduce the need for rest-day working through training new drivers. The training programme was interrupted by Covid, but a significant number of new drivers are currently going through training.

Therefore, I expect ScotRail to make sure that the temporary timetable is just that—temporary—and that the timetable gets back to normal as quickly as possible. I will, of course, ask the Minister for Transport to ensure that MSPs are kept fully up to date.

Douglas Ross

The First Minister said twice that she appreciates the opportunity to update members on the ScotRail issue, but it seems that she did not appreciate the opportunity to say that she is sorry. Those words did not come from the First Minister’s mouth. She mentioned—[Interruption.] I listened. The First Minister said she will take opportunities to apologise, but did not do so.

Passengers deserve an apology, and not only for the cuts up to now. From next week, there will be even more, with 700 services being lost every day. Almost a third of services will disappear. It will be even worse on some lines—the number of services from Glasgow to Dumfries, for example, is being halved and it is the same on the Edinburgh to Tweedbank line. Dunbar station will go from having 11 ScotRailservices every day to zero—none. ScotRail passengers will be left with a reduced timetable or no trains at all.

Yesterday, the Scottish National Party’s transport minister could not give passengers a guarantee on when the cancellations will end. That is no wonder. Kevin Lindsay, of the train drivers union ASLEF—the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen—said on Monday, of the Scottish Government’s role in settling the dispute:

“Quite frankly, it’s the worst negotiations I have been part of in 30 years as a union representative.”

That is a direct quote from the union. With such terrible handling of the negotiations by her Government, will the First Minister tell passengers when they can expect normal service to resume?

The First Minister

Douglas Ross often decides what he does and does not want to hear. The problem for him is that other people are listening to my answers, as well. I started my answer by saying that I always take the opportunity to apologise to any member of the public in Scotland who does not get, from a public service—whether that is the railway or any other public service—the standard of service that they have a right to expect. That includes those who are being disrupted right now because of the temporary timetable that has been put in place by ScotRail.

Secondly, for the services that are affected, this is, as I said, a temporary timetable. I expect the timetable to return to normal as quickly as possible; that expectation is being made very clear to ScotRail. I have set out the requirements for the progress that we need. First, there should be progress towards a fair but affordable pay settlement for rail workers. Secondly, ScotRail must continue to progress the training of additional drivers so that reliance on rest-day working can be reduced and, I hope, eventually eliminated.

It is worth pointing out that, last year, we negotiated with ASLEF and agreed an extension to the rest-day working arrangements. Those are in place until October 2022, so it is disappointing to see them being affected in this way. Notwithstanding that, ScotRail is focusing on the steps that need to be taken.

I want to see services going back to normal as quickly as possible. The Government will do everything that we possibly can to bring about that outcome.

Douglas Ross

The cuts will affect not only passengers: they are also devastating for businesses in our city centres, which are still reeling from the impact of the Covid pandemic and now face another lost summer.

In many places across Scotland, people will not be able to get a train after a night out. The chief operating officer of ScotRail said yesterday, before the latest cuts were announced, that protecting the first and last services was an “absolute priority”. That is a quotation from the chief operating officer.

That clearly has not happened. Let us take one example. To get the last train from Edinburgh to the Deputy First Minister’s constituency in Perth, people will not have to leave an hour or two hours earlier, but more than three hours earlier. The last train from Edinburgh to Perth is now going to be at 8 o’clock instead of 18 minutes past 11 at night.

That is just one example. On train services right across Scotland, last trains are being brought forward by hours. That will have a profound impact on businesses, restaurants, bars and clubs. I have a quotation from the Night Time Industries Association, which just this morning called the cuts to services “another cruel blow”. The association goes on to say that the cuts

“will be putting at risk both Scotland’s economic recovery and the future of many thousands of small businesses and jobs”.

What compensation will be First Minister’s Government provide for the businesses that will clearly be affected by the cuts?

The First Minister

It is very clear, and I absolutely accept, that the temporary cancellations, which have been made necessary by a pay dispute, are disruptive to individuals and to businesses. That is why it is so important that I stress, and that ScotRail works hard to ensure, that the temporary timetable is just that—temporary—and that normal service is resumed as quickly as possible. That is ScotRail’s focus, and the Government will do everything that we can to support that outcome.

It is also important to note that, although it is regrettable that it is necessary, the temporary timetable is designed to give more certainty to passengers for the short term, rather than there being unplanned cancellations such as we saw at the weekend.

The cancellations are disruptive and the situation is not acceptable and must get back to normal as quickly as possible. That is why all parties must get round the table and negotiate a fair and affordable pay deal, and it is why ScotRail must continue the work that it is undertaking to train more drivers—already, more drivers are working for ScotRail than was the case in many previous years—so that reliance on rest-day working is reduced and, eventually, eliminated. That is the focus of ScotRail and of the Government.

I say to the unions that I understand that their job is to represent their members and get a fair pay deal for them, but both parties should get round the table and negotiate for that in good faith. That is what the travelling public wants.

Douglas Ross

The First Minister calls it “regrettable”. She should say that to the people in Dunbar, at whose station zero ScotRail trains will stop. She should say it to the business leaders who are telling her, right now, that the cuts are going to put at risk thousands of job and small businesses.

We should remember that Nicola Sturgeon and her Government are in charge of Scotland’s railways. Just last month, at Queen Street station, the First Minister proclaimed that nationalising ScotRail was a

“new beginning”

and that it would deliver

“a railway ... for the nation”,

but passengers are now paying more than ever for fares and are getting the worst service in a generation. Seven weeks in, nationalisation is already proving to be a disaster. As happened with the ferries, as soon as the Government steps in to try to sort things out, the problems get even worse.

The SNP took over the running of our rail service on April fool’s day, but nat rail is no joke for Scotland’s passengers. Next week there will be 700 fewer services across the country every day. Was that really the First Minister’s grand vision for the railway in Scotland under SNP control?

The First Minister

Public ownership is the right arrangement to have in place. Over the long term, it will enable us to ensure that there are real improvements in our railway.

However, members should make no bones about it: regardless of whether the railway was in public hands or still in private hands, Douglas Ross, rightly and properly, would be asking me such questions, because such matters are of significance to people across the country. It was to individuals and businesses that I directed the comments in my earlier answer.

One of the benefits that we want to realise is affordable fares. However, we must not forget that fares in Scotland are already, on average, 20 per cent cheaper than they are where Douglas Ross’s party is in government.

On the temporary timetable, I repeat that it is temporary. It has proved to be necessary because of the dispute. I want that dispute to be settled as soon as possible and ScotRail to continue to take action to reduce reliance on rest-day working. It is right that ScotRail focuses on that. It needs the unions to get back around the table to negotiate on pay; I hope that that will be the case.

We will continue to focus on the short-term challenges, which are regrettable for the people who use our railways, but we will also focus on building the longer-term improvements that people across the country want in our railway services.

ScotRail (Disruption to Services)

2. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow) (Lab)

I start by joining others in recognising the tremendous effort of Rangers Football Club. Although the loss on penalties will hurt, the club, its staff, its players and its management should be incredibly proud of the phenomenal journey that they took the club on. It was a fantastic advert for Glasgow, for Scotland and for Scottish football.

Last month, after years of Labour campaigning, ScotRail was brought into public ownership in what Nicola Sturgeon described as “a historic moment”. I ask the First Minister whether making the biggest cuts to railways in over half a century is what she had in mind.

The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon)

Anas Sarwar says

“after years of Labour campaigning”,

but, of course, before that, there were years of Labour Governments at Westminster that failed to bring the railways back into public ownership. They also opposed the devolution of Network Rail.

However, to move back to what is, I think, the more serious issue, this is a temporary timetable. I wish that it did not have to be put in place, but it has been put in place in consultation with Transport Focus to give greater certainty, rather than having unplanned cancellations, for the—I hope—short period of time for which the revised services have to be in place.

I have already set out in my answers the work that needs to be done and the developments that we need to see, both on pay and on training more drivers, to ensure that, as quickly as possible, these services get back to normal. That is my focus and it is the focus of the transport minister, the Government and ScotRail.

Anas Sarwar

The First Minister wants to talk about what was happening when I was at school, and not what has happened in the 15 years for which she has been in government in Scotland. The reality is that there is no industrial action, and what she is talking about is relying on the good will of staff to work on their rest days to keep Scotland’s railways going.

Let us look at the facts and the reality that is facing Scotland’s passengers. At the start of 2020, there were 2,400 services a day. In the timetable that was announced in February, which was approved by the Scottish Government, that number had reduced to 2,150, which was a cut of 250. Now, in the new timetable that was announced yesterday by the Scottish Government, which owns ScotRail, that number has reduced to 1,456 services a day. That represents a cut of almost 1,000 services compared with the start of 2020. At the same time, the Scottish Government announced an increase in rail fares in the midst of a cost of living crisis, when fuel prices are spiralling.

In 2018, Nicola Sturgeon described cancellations of up to 144 services a day as “unacceptable” and cancellations of 40 services a day as “not good enough”. She said:

“We expect—indeed, we demand—better from the rail operator”.—[Official Report, 20 December 2018; c 12.]

For once, Nicola Sturgeon has nobody else to blame. Why are 40 cuts a day “not good enough” when somebody else is in charge but cutting 1,000 services a day is, in the words of the rail minister, a “stable and reliable service”?

The First Minister

Of course, Anas Sarwar is, possibly deliberately, mixing up different things. I will come on to that in a second. [Interruption.] It is important.

First, as I believe that the record will show, I have not said that there is industrial action. There have not been ballots for industrial action and I hope that there is not industrial action, but there is a pay dispute. ASLEF has said that it is in dispute with ScotRail, and some drivers are therefore not accepting overtime or Sunday and rest-day working. That is a matter of fact.

Anas Sarwar is right to say—and I have already said this several times today—that we do not want ScotRail to be in a position of having to rely on rest-day working. ScotRail came to an agreement with the rail unions in October last year to extend those arrangements until October this year, but there is a training programme under way to train new drivers in order to reduce the reliance on rest-day working. It was interrupted because of Covid, but it is back under way, and there will be significant numbers of drivers coming through that training programme.

I know that the changes to services in February are controversial and that members in the chamber have spoken out against them, but they were to take account of changes to travel patterns that have come about due to Covid and people’s different ways of working.

The services that we are talking about now are a temporary change. There is a temporary timetable until ScotRail gets over this short-term challenge, and I have set out today the steps that it needs to take around both pay and negotiating a fair pay settlement with the unions, and also continuing the work to train more drivers. What has been announced is a temporary timetable, and I expect it to be temporary so that those services are back to normal as quickly as possible.

Anas Sarwar

Scotland celebrated the railways coming into public ownership, which is something that Labour championed and continues to support. However, already, due to Scottish National Party incompetence—[Interruption.] I remind SNP members that they repeatedly voted against nationalisation of our railways.

Already, due to SNP incompetence, 1,000 services a day are being cut, there are proposals to shut booking offices, rail fares are up, there is a refusal to rule out compulsory redundancies and industrial relations are at an all-time low. Yet again, the SNP chased the headline but will not do the work. Maybe it should employ fewer spin doctors and more train drivers.

On the same weekend that Nicola Sturgeon jetted over to the US to talk about climate change, the SNP-Green Government cut rail services—the greenest form of transport—here at home. While she, rightly, demands action on the cost of living across the UK, she ignores the impact of decisions that she makes right here in Scotland. The cost of commuting is going up. People are struggling to get to work and are unable to get home at night. Whole communities are cut off from our cities. Why do the people of Scotland continually have to pay the price of SNP failure?

The First Minister

Chasing headlines—could that be like, I don’t know, saying before council elections that there will be no coalitions and then doing backroom deals with the Tories after the council elections? Could that be what Anas Sarwar is talking about? [Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

First Minister, there must be no loud conversations across aisles.

The First Minister

How dare Anas Sarwar come to the chamber and talk about the cost of living crisis when his party is seeking to do backroom deals with the authors of that cost of living crisis? It is one thing for Labour to say that it has championed the renationalisation of ScotRail and supported the renationalisation of ScotRail. Unfortunately, it did not do anything about it when it had the opportunity in government.

This Government has renationalised ScotRail. Yes, there are challenges in that, and we are doing the work to address those challenges, including in the short term, in the way that I have set out. People who use the railway across our country have a right to expect that. We will continue to work with ScotRail to overcome those immediate challenges and build a better railway for the future. That is what being in government is all about; on previous performance, Anas Sarwar is still some considerable way from that.

Train Drivers (Industrial Action)

7. Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government is doing to prevent future rail service cancellations due to industrial action by drivers. (S6F-01106)

The First Minister (Nicola Sturgeon)

I set out at length earlier that we are supporting ScotRail to negotiate a fair pay settlement with trade unions, and also to train more drivers in order to reduce reliance on rest-day working. The service cancellations that Mr Simpson refers to are temporary and the timetable change is temporary. My focus, the Government’s focus and ScotRail’s focus is on getting the service back to normal as quickly as possible.

Graham Simpson

When nat rail launched on April fool’s day, I speculated—

Members: Oh!

Graham Simpson

I speculated that things might not go perfectly, but—[Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Members, members. We will hear Graham Simpson.

Graham Simpson

They do not want to hear the truth, Presiding Officer.

What I did not realise was that wrecking the country’s train service would become established Government policy.

Nicola Sturgeon said that she wants to get everyone around the table. That should include her own transport minister, Jenny Gilruth, who has been posted missing in all this. That is why the unions are so exasperated—[Interruption.]

The First Minister should speak to the unions, as I have been doing, and she would hear the same thing—[Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Members, members. We will hear Mr Simpson.

Graham Simpson

I know that this is uncomfortable for members, but we are running a railway that is completely reliant on people working on their days off. That is completely crazy.

The First Minister says that she wants the current timetable to be temporary, but I put this to her. It takes 18 months to train a driver, and we have 130 drivers to get through the system. Will she admit that it could take until at least 2024 before ScotRail is off the emergency timetable?

The First Minister

No, I do not accept that. First, however, I welcome the Tory recognition of the importance of trade unions. That is not something that we often hear.

Jenny Gilruth has met, and talks regularly to, trade unions. She will continue to do so, and we will continue to support, in all possible ways, a resolution of the issues to allow the timetable to get back to normal.

On the issue of drivers, ScotRail hopes that an additional 38 drivers will be trained by the end of the summer, with the number rising to 55 by the end of the year and to 100 after that. That work is under way.

Perhaps if Graham Simpson spent less time borrowing slogans that his leader has already used and more time actually engaging with the substance, we might have better exchanges.

Fiona Hyslop (Linlithgow) (SNP)

I know that the First Minister appreciates the severity of the disruption that is affecting everyone involved, including those in my constituency of Linlithgow, where passengers were just coming back in strength to travel by train.

South of the border, the United Kingdom Government is pursuing a dispute with the rail unions for what can only be described as political and ideological purposes. Does the First Minister share my concern that events elsewhere in the UK are souring industrial relations here in Scotland, and affecting—[Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Members!

Fiona Hyslop

Does the First Minister share my concern that events elsewhere in the UK are souring industrial relations in Scotland and affecting the new beginning of public ownership of Scotland’s railway?

The First Minister

It is not surprising that the Conservatives do not want to hear that, but it is surprising that Labour members do not appear to want to hear it.

The situation in Scotland is the responsibility of ScotRail, which is now a publicly owned company, so it is therefore my responsibility and the responsibility of the Government.

However, the Conservatives should be aware that there is a separate National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers—RMT—dispute right now with Network Rail and UK Department for Transport operators. That is a reserved matter, but if it is not resolved, it will have an impact on services in Scotland, so some advice from the Conservatives to their own party as well might not go amiss.