Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of
the decisions of Police and Crime
Commissioners who have (1) cut the number of police officers
in their police force area in their 2022/23 budget, and (2)
applied for a grant from year 3 of the Police Uplift
Programme.
The Minister of State, Home Office () (Con)
My Lords, through the police uplift programme, police forces in
England and Wales have recruited over 11,000 additional
officers. Police and Crime
Commissioners can also fund the recruitment of officers on
top of the uplift allocations from local funding such as precept
outside of the uplift grant. We collect data annually on local
ambitions to recruit additional officers, to ensure that growth
is tracked accurately.
(Lab)
My Lords, I remind the House that I am a former police and crime
commissioner and I thank the Minister for her Answer. According
to the Prime Minister himself, the Government are committed, as a
priority, to increasing the number of police officers. How do
they not see the need to criticise those PCCs, such as the new
police and crime commissioner for Leicestershire, who even though
they have the resources through government grant and maximum
council tax, have chosen in their 2022-23 budgets to cut the
number of police officers rather than increase it? Surely the
Government have the courage to tell them that they are wrong.
(Con)
First, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, , whom I saw first-hand doing an
excellent job as a PCC for Leicestershire. Secondly, how PCCs
allocate their funding and their officers is obviously a decision
for local areas. Thirdly, if that PCC does not perform in line
with the public’s expectations, they have the remedy at the
ballot box.
(Con)
My Lords, is it not outrageous that the PCC for Leicestershire
and Rutland, who describes himself as a Conservative, is cutting
police numbers while paying £100,000 plus expenses to Mike Veale,
a man facing severe misconduct proceedings who, as chief
constable for Wiltshire, besmirched the reputation of Sir Edward
Heath—a wicked deed for which he has still not been called to
account? Should not this dishonourable PCC be thrown out of the
Conservative Party and the proceedings against Mr Veale started
as soon as possible?
(Con)
My Lords, his membership of the Conservative Party is clearly a
matter for the Conservative Party. Whether he should continue as
PCC, as I said earlier to the noble Lord, , is entirely a matter for the
electorate.
(LD)
My Lords, what power does the Home Secretary have to overrule
police and crime commissioners—for example, if they refused to
increase police numbers to achieve the Government’s planned
20,000 uplift, or when the Mayor of London forced the
Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis to resign? If the Home
Secretary did not agree that Dame Cressida Dick should go, why
did she not intervene at the time, rather than commission an
inquiry after the event?
(Con)
Clearly, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service has
given notice of the end of her tenure. It appeared to be quite
short notice, although she has yet to depart. I understand she
will be departing in April and I join the Home Secretary in
paying tribute to her work. I say to the noble Lord that the
police are operationally independent and the PCC sets the
direction for the local area. If the public in that area are not
happy, they have the remedy at the ballot box.
(Lab)
Is it not the reality that the new PCC for Leicestershire has,
from the third tranche of the Government’s police uplift
programme and the maximum permitted increase in council tax of
£10 per year per dwelling, the resources for another 100 officers
in 2022-23, as previously budgeted for and agreed? He has decided
not to use the money for that purpose, even in part. The number
of officers there will remain under 2010 levels in 2022-23,
despite the Government saying that the overall 20,000 additional
officers nationally are to restore the cuts in numbers since
2010. Does the Answer to my noble friend mean that the Government condone
what the new PCC for Leicestershire is doing in using money
intended to increase police officer numbers for other purposes in
2022-23?
(Con)
My Lords, the Government have been absolutely clear on the police
uplift programme: we expect that funding to go towards the 20,000
police officers. That is not in any doubt. What is in debate this
afternoon is whether the precept should be used on top of that to
fund police officers. Whether a local PCC decides to do that is
down to that local PCC. Should local areas need to invest in
additional police officers, they have the funding to do so
through either the police uplift programme or indeed the
precept.
Lord McLoughlin (Con)
My Lords, in welcoming the increase in police numbers that the
Government have achieved, will my noble friend assure me
that Police and Crime
Commissioners will have the flexibility to best respond to
local circumstances? We are seeing that cybercrime does not
necessarily need a uniformed officer to investigate
it; Police and Crime
Commissioners may decide there are better ways to do it, and
surely that is the point of having them.
(Con)
My noble friend is absolutely right: local circumstances will
dictate different needs in different places. He is absolutely
correct to say that cyber and other types of crime—county lines,
for example—may necessitate different solutions in different
areas.
(Lab)
My Lords, following that specific question and the implication
that somehow this money was being spent on cybercrime, the
principal cybercrime in this country is fraud. Some 42% of
reported crime is fraud—despite the fact that the Government
regularly drop off this figure when they talk about crime. Some
1% of police resources are used in policing fraud—so it clearly
cannot be the case that these resources are being used for other
policing purposes; they must be being used for something
else.
(Con)
I return to the point made by my noble friend: it is down to
local elected PCCs to decide. Also, cyber is not just about
fraud; it can be about all sorts of things, such as disruption et
cetera. There are other bodies that deal with fraud as well, but,
frankly, we deal with fraud and other types of crime across
several agencies.
(GP)
My Lords, I declare that I have met several PCCs during my long
interest in policing. It is true that Conservatives have a
propensity to cut—they cut figures, costs and budgets all the
time. It is exactly what the Conservatives did back in 2010,
which caused chaos in policing, because the budget was cut so
savagely and so quickly. So perhaps this PCC did not get the memo
that the Government are now recruiting.
(Con)
My Lords, I think all PCCs got the memo. The funding and the
precept capability are there for police to not just get the
numbers through the police uplift programme but to add to them
through the precept, if they see fit in their area.
(LD)
My Lords, there is serious concern about the recruitment of
police officers from the diverse communities in this country. If
the number is cut, how will we improve on this record?
(Con)
My Lords, the numbers will not be cut; they are going up quite
significantly—I think they went up 9% in the last year. On the
point about diversity, the noble Lord is absolutely right; we
talked about this last year in relation to the HMICFRS report on
the back of the Daniel Morgan inquiry. Over the last four years,
numbers have gone steadily up in terms of BME representation in
the Metropolitan Police.
(Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. Of course, it
is to be commended that the Government are putting more resources
into police numbers, but that is only to reverse the cuts that
they themselves made. Can the Minister tell us how many of those
who are being recruited as part of the uplift programme have
actually completed their training and not dropped out or been
found not to have met the necessary requirements? What are the
Government doing about the chronic shortage of detectives, which
is now apparent partly because of the loss of police officers
over the last 12 years?
(Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point about how many
officers have taken up their posts. The total number of officers
recruited is nearly 140,000, which is an increase of nearly 10%,
as I said. I do not know the dropout number. I suspect that
140,000 is the overall number, but if there are any dropouts I
will let the noble Lord know.
