Extract from Welsh Parliament: Questions to the First Minister - Mar 8

Rhys ab Owen MS: What discussions is the Welsh Government having with the Ministry of Justice and Police and Crime Commissioners to tackle racial discrimination in the criminal justice system in Wales? OQ57734

Mark Drakeford MS (First Minister of Wales): Thank you very much to Rhys ab Owen for the question, Llywydd. We continue to work closely with Police and Crime Commissioners and justice partners through the criminal justice in Wales board to ensure our race equality action plans tackle discrimination in the justice system. Next week, I will chair the policing partnership board for Wales, where these issues will be discussed.

Rhys ab Owen MS: Thank you, First Minister, and thank you for the Government's work within the criminal justice system in Wales, which, of course, is not devolved to Wales. 

Now, we have known for decades about the prejudices faced by people of ethnic minority within the justice system globally. What we have not known, until recent years, is that racial prejudice within the justice system in Wales seems to be worse here in Wales than in England. Through the work of the Cardiff University Wales Governance Centre, we now know that black offenders receive the highest average custodial sentence length in Wales, whilst white offenders receive the lowest average custodial sentence length. New stop-and-search data by the governance centre show that matters in Wales are far worse than in England. For every 1,000 white persons living in Wales, eight were stopped and searched, and this compares to 56 per 1,000 people in the black community in Wales. Individuals from black, ethnic backgrounds in Wales were seven times over-represented within police use of restraint, six times over-represented in police use of weapons, such as tasers. Now, these are disgraceful figures, which should worry all of us within this Chamber. I'm pleased that Wales is called a nation of refuge, but it can't really be called genuinely a nation of refuge if people in the black population are far more likely to be dragged into the criminal justice system than their white contemporaries. Now, will the Prif Weinidog set up an inquiry to analyse the extent of the racial prejudice within our justice system so we can understand why it's happening and address that fully? Diolch yn fawr. 

Mark Drakeford MS: Well, I thank Rhys ab Owen for that, and congratulate the Wales Governance Centre on the continuing work that they do and the very important, if very bleak, insights that they are providing to us through the work that they do. The figures to which the Member referred in terms of stop and search are obviously very concerning indeed, but they come on top of the work that we've seen already from the centre. It is a shocking figure, and I'm sure it will be shocking to people around the whole Chamber when that research reveals the fact that, while 14 white people in Wales are imprisoned for every 100,000 people in the population, 91 black people are imprisoned, and that is a shocking analysis. It's why, in the co-operation between our two parties, we have a specific commitment to ensure that the justice elements of the race equality action plan are robust and address these matters with the police and the courts, and that is the way in which we intend to take forward the practical ways in which we can address the figures that we've discussed this afternoon.

The long-term answer, Llywydd, is surely the devolution of policing and justice. And it is my belief, that that is not a matter of if it will happen, it is a matter of when it will happen. It should and it will happen, and that's because the case for doing so is so clear and reinforced by exactly the information that Rhys ab Owen has highlighted this afternoon. Where we have been able to have a strong influence, Llywydd, then we show the difference that we can make. Our influence has probably been strongest in the field of youth justice. A decade ago, in 2011, there were over 3,000 young people brought into the youth justice system for the first time that year. Ten years later, last year, that figure was under 400. Again, back in 2011, 109 young people in Wales were sentenced to custody that year. Last year, it was 17, the lowest figure ever on record. And that's why I feel confident that we will see the devolution of policing and justice, because we can show that, when we have the opportunity, we are able to deliver those services more efficiently and more effectively. Because when they are delivered locally they can be tailored, prioritised and implemented according to the values and the approach that we would wish to see for that service here in Wales.

Joel James MS: First Minister, the HM Inspectorate of Prisons 'Children in Custody' report found that a disproportionately high number of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller children were in the criminal justice system. Typically, 11 per cent of children in secure training centres and 6 per cent of children in youth offending institutions are from a Gypsy, Roma and Traveller background, compared to 0.1 per cent of the whole population. The report also highlighted that Gypsy, Roma and Traveller children have a greater difficulty in engaging with youth offending teams and education provision when in custody. The reasons for this are extremely complex, but there seems to be a connection to when children are first taken into custody and their overall experience and outcomes. It has been found that very often family and friends who act as appropriate adults do not always understand the processes involved, and in addition the children in custody can also feel overwhelmed. This then leads on to feelings of mistrust and isolation for children when they're in custody. First Minister, could you explain what actions this Government has taken in terms of working with the Ministry of Justice and Police and Crime Commissioners to identify the specific needs of children from Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities in Wales when they enter the criminal justice system? What extra support do you believe is needed for children from these comminutes? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford MS: All those are very important points that the Member has made. The single biggest way in which we have been able to address that challenge in Wales is, as I said earlier, in reducing year on year the total number of children from Wales who find themselves in custody, down to the lowest ever figure last year. That will mean that we have been able to have a benefit for those young people from the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community. But, more does need to be done, we know, because of the discrimination and disadvantage that children from those backgrounds face. We have significant investment from the Welsh Government in providing particular services to help meet the needs of those communities and that expertise is available to people who work in our youth justice system. I don't think it's unfair of me, Llywydd, even with what was a very constructive question, to point to the fact that there is legislation going through the House of Commons at the moment, taken forward by the Conservative Party, that will lead to the criminalisation of more people from that community, legislation to which this Senedd has refused to give its consent.