Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when all of the Type 45
destroyers will have completed the Power Improvement Project
(PIP) upgrade.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence () (Con)
My Lords, it is planned that all six Type 45 ships will have
received the power improvement project conversion by 2028.
(Lab)
My Lords, I have great respect for the Minister and her buoyant
way of answering questions, but I have to say that with her brief
she is a bit like a Tommy in the First World War being told to be
go over the top. The PIP has been an absolute disaster. We knew
in 2009 that there was a problem with our destroyers—we only have
six of them. It took three years to work out how to resolve it—to
2012. It took another two years to say, “We will find some money
within the programme to do this”. The first one went in for work
in 2020, that was the “Dauntless” in May, and we were told she
would be out by early 2021. “Dauntless” has still not rejoined
the fleet. “Daring” is about to go in and have this done. One has
very severe doubts about when this will be completed.
My real concern is that when you go to war, you have to fight
with what you have, and it seems to me that when you have only
six destroyers, if they are not working properly, you should be
pushing as hard and fast as possible to do it. British workmen
can do this. When I came from the Arctic down to the UK before
the Falklands, they told me it would take 10 weeks to sort my gun
out. The Argentinians invaded, a team came on board and said,
“Skipper, we will sort it out in two days.” So, we could do these
things quicker and we really must, because we are in a very
dangerous world. In the context of this case, are we putting
money from the reserve now into our military programmes to fill
where there are real gaps because we are in such a dangerous
world?
(Con)
Let me say to the noble Lord, who I thought was being somewhat
uncharacteristically mean-spirited, that he will understand that
the problems that beset the power propulsion systems of these
destroyers have been long-standing—he is quite right about that.
I reassure him and your Lordships that there is every
determination to get these six destroyers installed with the
power improvement project. In fact, “Dauntless” should be
returning to sea this year for sea trials; “Daring” is already at
Cammell Laird and programme conversion work on her will be
carried out during 2022. It is important to say that these
destroyers are hugely capable ships, they are universally admired
across the world, and all naval operational requirements at home
and abroad continue to be fulfilled.
(CB)
My Lords, given the length of time before the Type 45 numbers
will be up to operational scratch, with concomitant effect on our
destroyer frigate force levels, will the Minister say what is
being done to improve the in-service dates of the Type 31 and
Type 26, whose build rate is lamentably slow? Speeding it up will
certainly help mitigate the force level problem.
(Con)
As the noble and gallant Lord will be aware, batch 1 of the Type
26 is under way and the first one, HMS “Glasgow”, should be in
the water by the end of this year and is currently expected to
enter service in 2027. On current plans, the following two,
“Cardiff” and “Belfast”, will enter service in the late 2020s. On
the Type 31, he will be aware that these are proceeding well and
their estimated delivery schedule is for all five by the end of
2028. I think the noble and gallant Lord will understand that, as
the manufacture continues, delivery of successive ships is not
necessarily constant across the whole class. For example, for the
Type 26 batch 1, there should be one every 18 months and for the
Type 31, there should be one every eight to 12 months.
(Con)
My Lords, as a former Glasgow representative, the Type 45s were
built on my patch and I have seen first-hand the construction,
launch, trials and service of various of the vessels. In their
primary role as an air defence platform they have some
outstanding capabilities, but the recent increased activity of
the Russian navy highlights concerns about both reliability and
lethality. Of the six vessels, there have been times where four,
five or even all six have been unavailable for service. While air
defence is a strength, the lack of anti-ship missiles continues
to be a concern. Can I ask the Minister to give reassurance that,
following the power improvement project upgrade, we expect to see
increased reliability and availability of the Type 45? Can she
tell us what anti-ship capabilities we have across the wider
fleet, including the new Type 26 frigates?
(Con)
Yes, as I have already indicated to my noble friend, the
programme for the Type 45s is established, it is encouraging and
the improvements will be made. As to the Type 26 frigates which
are being produced in Glasgow, they will be muscular, they will
be equipped with a Sea Ceptor anti-air missile defence system.
They have been fitted with the Mark 41 vertical launch silo to
allow future flexibility and they will also be capable of
embarking a Merlin anti-submarine warfare helicopter or a Wildcat
maritime attack helicopter, which will be able to apply Sea Venom
and market variants of the future anti-surface guided weapon.
of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, the original PIP was supposed to refit between 2019 and
2021. The Minister for Defence Procurement then said the
estimated date for the PIP to be completed was the mid-2020s;
2028, which the Minister mentioned earlier, is surely the late
2020s. Can she say whether she has any confidence in the figures
that she has been given, and can she tell us how much of the £189
million budget for the PIP has been spent and whether she
anticipates it going over budget?
(Con)
I say to the noble Baroness that the programme is under way; it
is scheduled, and the other Type 45s will be going in subject to
their operational obligations and their availability for the
refit. I think the noble Baroness should understand that the
conversion is a complex engineering project. The noble Lord, Lord
West, and I may disagree on many things, but I think we are both
agreed on the technical complexity of this and it is being
delivered against the backdrop of the Covid-19 pandemic. There
has been a significant challenge that has tested industry and it
has impacted the schedule, but we continue to monitor and review
the programme.
(CB)
My Lords, as we have seen in Ukraine, the most important vector
of attack in conflict below the threshold of formalised warfare
is a form of politicised war based on an effective narrative. I
am sure the problem of the Type 45’s power plant will be
expensively resolved, but what steps are we taking to improve our
speed and effectiveness in translating military activity into an
effective political narrative?
(Con)
I am almost tempted to answer the question the other way around
and say that, with the integrated review, the defence Command
Paper and the allocation of budget to defence over the duration
of this Parliament and exactly what that means for both equipment
and shipbuilding, we have seen that there is a very manifest
political resolve to support defence and ensure our capability is
as good as it can be. As to the more strategic questions of how
you relate what you are doing at the MoD end with what is
required out on the front, as the noble and gallant Lord will
understand, we are constantly assessing, identifying and
recognising threat and addressing that with the multifaceted
character of the capability we have.
(Lab)
My Lords, the chair of the Defence Select Committee recently said
that
“our Navy will soon be too small to defend our interests and deal
with emerging threats.”
Given that the noble Baroness has just told us that the six
warships will not all be seaworthy until 2028, can the Government
confirm that they have a Navy relevant to the needs of this
country in terms of the threats we face? How does the fact that,
at the beginning of February, all six warships were in dock help
us defend our country and those of our allies?
(Con)
As the noble Lord will be aware, all our ships are subject to
planned maintenance schedules; that is how the Navy operates. As
to the broader question of whether we have a Navy that is fit for
purpose, I think the answer is yes, we do. If you look at the
success of the carrier strike group, which was regarded as a
universal declaration of naval strength across the globe, if you
look at the supporting assets which were out in attendance to the
carrier and if you consider that, for the first time in 30 years,
we have two classes of frigate simultaneously under construction
in UK yards—the noble Lord might be envious of that; I know he
will regard that with pleasure, but it was not something that
occurred when his party was in government—I would say that the
Navy is in very good shape.
(Con)
My Lords, how many of these vessels remain ready to be deployed
to the south Atlantic to respond to the recent threats from the
Argentinians—supported by the Chinese, no less—in case they came
to pass as they did in 1982?
(Con)
Well, as I said earlier, we always build in an assessment of
where the threat lies and how we counter it. As my noble friend
will be aware, we are dealing with exceptional circumstances at
the moment and are focusing our attention on addressing that
threat. However, we do not neglect where threat may be emerging
in other forms and other areas of the globe.
(LD)
My Lords, since we are dealing with the question of equipment,
can the Minister tell us if she is familiar with the Public
Accounts Committee report of 3 November 2021? In relation to
equipment, it said it was
“extremely disappointed and frustrated by the continued poor
track record”
of the Ministry of Defence and that that had resulted in a
“wastage of taxpayers’ money running into the billions.”
How can the ambitions of the integrated review ever be achieved
unless the Ministry of Defence is able to run its defence
budget?
(Con)
The noble Lord is correct in quoting the committee and in that it
identified areas of historic weakness, but as the noble Lord will
be aware, radical reform has been undertaken in respect of
procurement within the MoD. Arrangements are now much more
tightly and robustly negotiated at the inception of a contract
and much more ruthlessly and robustly monitored during its
duration. Therefore, there is evidence of improvement and of that
coming through in the finances.