Meeting of the National Plan for Sport and Recreation Committee, Feb 24

Panel 1 witnesses:

• Justin Coleman, Co-Founder and Chief Operations Officer, Alliance of Sport in Criminal Justice
• Barry Jones, Secretary, The Police Community Clubs of Great Britain
• Professor Rosie Meek, Professor of Psychology and Head of the School of Law at Royal Holloway, University of London

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:01:50] I'm going to say I'm going to start I'm going to ask you, Barry: We're interested in the committee, not simply just in sporting excellence, though clearly, that is something that's of real value to us, but we're very interested in this concept of sport for development. And whilst it isn't actually in the new Sport England framework, it is in another form of words of actually linking sport and recreation to two of the goals, particularly about tackling anti-social behaviour, deprivation, etc. So I wonder if you could say, how do you feel it's defined this idea of sport for development and how is it different to other sport and recreational offerings, for example, to people living in deprived areas?

Barry Jones [00:02:56] I've given it some thought and effectively I've got back to my original simple statement that I feel that for sport for development is simply having a goal to drive social change through sport. And that is effectively what we seek to do in everything the police community clubs do with hard to reach groups.

Justin Coleman [00:03:28] I guess in relation to support for development is quite simply summed up from our perspective in the context of the criminal justice system. It really is about making people sort of better, if you will, rather than just helping people to become better rather than just better athletes, which supports sports development or sports development does if you will. So, yes, in context of the prison estate or in the secure estates and within the criminal justice system is helping people identify with, you know, with their communities, with the processes of change, etc. that sport can offer a platform for when you've got decent relationships and the ability to focus on other things, such as homelessness or health and wellbeing, etc. within those contacts, not just the sport itself.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:04:15] Justin, could I ask you how you feel that should be financed?

Justin Coleman [00:04:24] At the moment, the prison estate in the secure estates is a multiple of funding streams, if you want because there is a bunch of them or a whole series of kind of interventions, such as health that's funded through the Ministry of Justice, it's funded through the NHS and services, education, etc. So funding wise, I think it needs to be something this review seriously and kind of look at in the sense of, hey, let's review. But also I think how it's identified who supports the development sector so is a kind of an emerging theme if you will, that needs to be kind of properly assess where that comes from.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:05:02] Where would you like it to come from?

Justin Coleman [00:05:05] From the sports section - DCMS, Sport England, Sport Wales, personally, because I think it's best there and also it fits well with the health sector.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:05:15] They haven't any money.

Justin Coleman [00:05:19] None of us do. I think it's very much about working together on that. And I think genuinely coming up with this many...there are great funders out there - charitable trusts, Comic Relief etc. And we're all working together to help, I guess, and sort of look at these things and prove what sport can do and what support for development can do. So again, I guess it's about working together on that one.

Rosie Meek [00:05:44] You know, I mean, as Justin just explained, when we're looking at the role of sport in justice settings, we need to think really creatively about the multitude of ways that sport can be used, not just as a diversion activity, but also as a way of instilling life skills or communication skills or simply as a way of encouraging people to engage in more positive social relationships, be that with their family members or with the professionals they come into contact with when we're talking about the funding of these initiatives. Part of the problem, I think, lies in the fact that we do rely on various disparate forms of funding. And a lot of this work is a lot more disjointed than what we would argue we need it to be. We need a coordinated effort in order to have the best impact, particularly in terms of justice settings. And unfortunately, we don't, I think, have that at this time.

Lord Knight of Weymouth [00:06:44] Thank you, Rosie. I just want to follow up with you, but, you know, the others might and some would say. The chairman's question did talk about the definition and you will talk about sport. And I see the importance of sport. But we're also looking at recreation. And I know in your report, Rosie, you mentioned the English Chess Association. So that's not one that we associate with activity, but it's recreation. I know you've looked at horses, you know, a long time ago in Portland. How do you see that balance and where should we really be focussed between sports and recreation and activity in terms of what it does on the criminal justice system in particular?

Rosie Meek [00:07:30] Well, I would urge you to take the stance that I take, which is that we should be as broad in our understanding of sport and recreation as we can be, because who are we to say that engaging in a game of of of chess or short bowls or team sports or working with equine therapy is the example you gave doesn't have the same benefit? I mean, I would often argue that sport is certainly one of the solutions to the terrible situation in our justice system is currently. But I certainly wouldn't argue it's the only solution. And I think when we think more widely around the role of the arts, we will also see other solutions. So I would always argue that we should be taking a fairly broad understanding of sport and recreation. And that's one of the reasons I was pleased to see that your committee indeed includes the term recreation.

Justin Coleman [00:08:33] Yeah, just to add to that, I guess in relation to the definition of sport for development, we're also looking at the fact that the sport itself and sport and physical activity is lifelong activity. And so with that being a lifelong activity, the criminal justice system itself, in the context that we sit in, shouldn't be a lifelong activity. It's got that positive pathway if you will. And the definition then is beyond that, if you will, of the criminal justice system, which should be longer than that, because it lasts for life. A fan of a football club, for example, can be forever, you know, kind of these kinds of other.

Baroness Morris [00:09:07] Yes, thank you very much. I just wanted to follow up on what you said about funding, because sometimes in life strengths become weaknesses. And I think from what you talked about in defining what this area was, you talked about how it could have an impact across a whole range of activities of how it can be visible everywhere. And that is great strength in terms of funding because it's a great weakness and you end up as just a third wanting pots of money from everyone. Rosie, I wasn't sure whether you acknowledge that was a problem. I wasn't sure whether you were saying that you wouldn't want the funding to come from ever. I think what my question is, how would you stop it is quite important to a whole lot of people are not sufficiently important to anyone to really make the difference.

Rosie Meek [00:09:55] It's a great question. And I think that's part of the issue. When we're looking in, particularly in prisons and the justice system, we need to see accountability. And ultimately, the Ministry of Justice is the accountable party that needs to make the decisions in terms of operational decisions. But we also need to see genuine cross-department working. And you will all know better than I how challenging that can be in terms of drawing together health, education, CMS justice. But until we see that and have it operationalised in all sorts of different contexts, we won't be fulfilling the real potential that sport has, particularly in my area of interest around reducing crime, which is in everybody's best interest, not least as a way of saving the taxpayer and the public purse.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:10:55] Barry, do you have a view on where the funding should come from?

Barry Jones [00:10:59] I do, yes, and if I could just clarify my answer to that question, one, I was not specifically referring to the justice system, although we don't know with the justice system, they the funding, as far as I am concerned, and what we're particularly interested in, our organisation, I think is coming should come from governments all through the Sport England sport. Well, but. But I think the importance of them, in fact, funding reputable deliverers like we would place ourselves in that category and should be taken seriously should be strongly considered, because I think there are a lot of people in the areas in which we work and who are involved in delivering programmes, which we have discovered are both unsatisfactory and in many cases not to what would be expected of those operating in this particular field. Our involvement with the justice system has been on the periphery really in so much as whilst we have a huge involvement with the police service and community projects with them, we've done very little within the prison establishments. But what we have done, we've felt it's been absolutely great work. Should I say put all our work is funded generally by money that we acquire through running a business, which makes us slightly different to all the scenarios that have just been mentioned? We run a limited company just to raise money to put back into community projects, and that's how we work.

Lord Snape [00:13:16] How do we know if development programmes are effective and how do you measure impacts? And could you perhaps define good practise in this particular area?

Justin Coleman [00:13:31] So I guess within measurement, we do need to involve more and more professors such as raising these and sort of more research teams and sort of encouraging more university, I guess, research itself and academic processes. We also need to look at the measurement framework, I guess, as well. And so in a way, in my personal opinion, is to stop the silo of measurement that seems to be happening across all of the criminal justice systems, especially with a variety of partners in that operating. We've all got different KPIs. We've all got different ways of measuring things. In a way, I think there needs to be some form of rigour around sport, I guess as well, to look at the measurement and a more holistic way and then to be able to look at it, I guess in our context, reducing reoffending or increasing the prevention of crime being committed.

Rosie Meek [00:14:29] Yeah, I've dedicated much of my research career to this, and I think obviously we need to be able to demonstrate the impact of this work in order to justify prioritising it at all. And actually, we do have some great tools at our disposal in this country. We have the Justice Data Lab Initiative, which, if you're not familiar with it, enables us to monitor the reduction in proven reoffending for those who take part in a given intervention, matching participants against those same characteristics. But that won't give us evidence until two years after release and relies on large sample size. So I think we also need to be more effective in looking at intermediate outcomes. I've dedicated a lot of work to this in terms of looking at various outcomes around health, education and so on. And we also need more immediate scrutiny, I think, of the impact of current programmes, how they work well, what lessons can be taken from existing programmes in terms of scaling them up, which is often a real challenge. We can probably all think of excellent small scale examples of interventions or programmes which very much rely on the fantastic abilities of maybe one or two people driving the programme. And the million-dollar question is, how can we then scale up the incredible impacts of these programmes in a more national or multi-site way? And that's where monitoring and evaluation are so important. And indeed, why I reflected on that one of my recommendations in my review that we need more coherent monitoring and evaluation strategy.

Barry Jones [00:16:28] Well, all I can say is that I take on board everything that Rosie actually says. And I agree with that. I just don't see it being an exact science. And it's very difficult to evaluate just how much influence you've made on the subjects that go through your programmes. Again, I think we're slightly privileged with our organisation is in that we tend to react to requests from chief officers. They know the sort of work that we do. They'll ask us to get involved and get involved around a certain problem they have in their locality. We're fortunate enough to be able to address most of those, either with off the shelf programmes and projects, or we've got a team that we can put together a bespoke programme for it for a chief officer on some of the ones we've done, particularly in Durham and around the Metropolitan Police areas, we do have some feedback and we do carry out our own level of evaluation, which is a good example for us to identify whether what we're doing is getting results or otherwise. So from my point of view, as I say, I reiterate, I don't think the evaluation is an exact science in this area around working with problems within communities. But there is some out there, and I'm always interested to see other people's evaluations of their projects referred to by professor Meek.

Baroness Brady [00:18:33] I'd really love to hear from anyone, really, if they could just give us a flavour of a project that is working, how you measure its effectiveness, what it costs and how it's funded.

Justin Coleman [00:19:11] At the moment we're looking at some current project, for example, around I'm levelling the playing field with the youth justice estate. And this involves approximately 80 planners, sporting partners, that in the community and also the criminal justice system where the youth justice system supported by the Youth Justice Board, the measurements that we can use there. Well, I think at the moment, the two to come and go. So we're measuring towards those and we're looking at the two common goals of underrepresentation of sport and physical activity in the community and overrepresentation of ethnically diverse people in the criminal justice system. And we using the role of sport, if you will, then to effect the prevention of those going into the criminal justice system and also looking at the impact there is of those that are in the criminal justice system and how we can use the community to help them through the gate and back into the community environment if you will. And so we're using measurements around the University of Birmingham, working with them and those of us on the board as well. They're helping with the measurements around the research. We're also then helping the community organisations start to think about their impact and the ways in which to measure this over a long period of time so that intensive training and intensive communication channels that we can work together and communicate across multiple channels of communication and if you will, organisations speaking together at any one time, state movements across the community and in the criminal justice system at the same time from the youth justice states that we're working with at the moment to try and understand how we can help them start to lift physical activity through the covid restrictions, etc. and in the community the same. And we're just starting to see hope in the near future, those activities start to start again and sort of have an impact on the sort of have to capitalise.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:21:14] One of the things we're worried about as a committee is there are a lot of initiatives, a lot of money going into initiatives. But how is actually coordinated or driven through so that we get a comprehensive if you like, a track approach? I'm totally bemused because I can't see is anywhere.

Rosie Meek [00:21:33] Yeah, and you're right, there is a really widespread range of programmes, and that's part of, I think, the wonderful landscape that we have, but also part of the challenge. So to give Baroness Brady a very simple example, many of you will be familiar with Parkrun as a community initiative. We've been working and developing that in prison populations, which is effectively very, very cheap, almost free. It's community-led and it has an enormous impact in terms of encouraging people to be physically active and to maintain that level of physical activity after they're released from prison, aside from the physical health benefits. There's also some really important psychological benefits in terms of feeling part of a supportive community, feeling part of the process of the peer group and being able to access something positive and free on a Saturday morning, perhaps with one child in the local area. So that's just one example of something which you could see is almost free. It relies on the prison supporting the initiative. And actually, it's the cost in kind, which can be more challenging when we're talking about prison contexts. It's not so much the financial cost. It's the implication of bringing on board the prison staff and the governor and making sure that the physical space is available and the individual prisoners can be given access to a certain activity. So I think it goes that sort of initiative that I gave an example of goes beyond the financial outlay. And it's more about a strategic tone-deaf approach, which I mentioned because it goes back to your second question, Lord Willis around coordination, which is, I think one of the main issues in terms of, as I said previously, accountability for making sure these programmes are delivered and why organisations like Justin's Alliance and other organisations that you'll hear from later this afternoon are so important in terms of coordinating programmes, sharing and disseminating good practise examples and making sure that the programmes are being delivered in the most effective way. So ultimately, that's what we all want.

Lord Snape [00:23:58] Where's the evidence about the impact of sports and physical activity on rehabilitation, on the deterrence or prevention of criminal behaviour? I mean, can you point to a specific example or a number of examples which would help the committee?

Barry Jones [00:24:21] I can think of a number of projects that we've done that have proved fruitful with regard to rehabilitation. I won't linger on the prison project unless you want me to, because that was a one-off project, which was very successful as far as we're concerned.

[00:24:44] I would say that our formation of police-community clubs across the country have been a great success. I personally have seen many, many youngsters that we have attracted, not only involved in crime but on the periphery of crime that has joined our clubs, have stayed with our clubs. And I was not only thinking before this session started. I also have done some research on the number of young people that we've had from the criminals on the periphery of the criminal fraternity that have come into our clubs and gone on to run clubs of their own. It's been so, so successful that introduction of the formation of police-community clubs. But again, that has had little if no funding. We currently have around 40 clubs with a waiting list of well over 50, but they're all run by volunteers, none of them are funded greatly in what they do, and they depend on so much peripheral funding, just as Rosie referred to, they're from all different areas which are not easy to come by for single clubs as we are. But there is a need to get these all coordinated where the funders can understand exactly where the real need is.

Justin Coleman [00:26:53] In relation to the impact in the measurement, I guess, where you would find that if you look back to this chance review, especially in 2018, that's where the report was generated if you will. There's a lot of evidence there in the sense of in a central location, central space in space. I think what we've also got is other reviews if you will, that have happened. And I think it's about maybe coordinating some of these reviews and bringing them together so that there's so, for example, that review and things touch on this sort of thing as well. And a review of some music that just touches on physical activity from people looking at those in a central location. And the impact measurement, if you will, and within this, this is that we do need a framework that will allow us to measure the impact in there. And there are developments there around certain systems going into the prison and into the prison system in the security state as well. And I believe that going through into the court systems and improving the police systems as well, to be able to map and monitor the impact of this.

Lord Addington [00:28:13] What is the classic cock up in this area? What is the sort of intervention that's well, meaning the classically falls apart is something I'd be quite interested in hearing about.

Rosie Meek [00:28:33] I would say an unintended cock up is when we have very short scale interventions, which are very well-meaning. This is particularly damaging in prison populations where a great programme is delivered for just a few weeks and there's no long term support following on from that. And actually, that can do more harm than good.

[00:28:56] OK, thank you. I'm going to move on now to Baroness Sater and forgive me for a minute.

Lord Snape [00:29:05] I think it would be valuable as far as the committee's eventual report is concerned if we could produce some evidence that sport and recreation have had a beneficial impact as far as rehabilitation, particularly of young people are concerned. And perhaps the witnesses can go away and put together some evidence for is that if we can't produce it this afternoon, but I can't stress in my view the importance of being able to say, look, this is how successful this has been in rehabilitation.

Rosie Meek [00:29:36] I can answer that briefly if you'd like me to just to reassure you that much of my work looks at this and I'm happy to provide copies. But just in some, the work I've been doing in prisons has tended to take an approach looking at not just reoffending statistics, which, let's face it, are important, but also other measures such as people's attitudes towards offending or their willingness to go into education or employment or their relationships with their families and with staff members. And indeed, a really valuable measure that I use a lot are violent incidents within the prison before a sports-based intervention is delivered and afterwards. And there are massive changes that you may be familiar with. The excellent work of writing table tennis club I support in going into a number of prisons and we've been able to demonstrate exactly that. A fairly straightforward and low-cost type of tennis based intervention has resulted in significant reductions in violent instances, both self inflicted violence, which we know is an enormous issue within our prisons, but also a prisoner in prison or prison staff violence. So that's just one element of demonstrating impact, which I'd be happy to share further.

Baroness Sater [00:31:24] We know that there are some really good programmes out delivering some really excellent work. And you touched on the fact about scaling a lot of these programmes and being able to upscale them. And we know that the benefits for young people, life skills and the work, the health and mental health and wellbeing of these programmes, the bigger picture, slightly more sport in the community as well as the justice system. What do you think are the main barriers or challenges to delivering high-quality sport for development programmes? What progress is being made? And we touched on it on the implementation of the recommendations from your report and maybe just give us a flavour of where your recommendations got to. And also, what is the state of play today potentially in prisons? Can you give us an overview how things improved?

Justin Coleman [00:32:30] In relation to the question, I guess the examples well, I guess the actual direction that we would suggest we take, there is a person-centred one. And I mean that in the sense that every intervention we're trying to deliver at the moment needs to be based on me. It needs to be based on the fact that if we're going to scale something up, it might be scaled up in one city and be needed there and scaled up somewhere else and not if you see what I mean. And I think it's about listening to the communities themselves that we're trying to impact them. We spent a great deal of time over the past few weeks and months working with neighbours, for example, or an education provider in the state and the prisoners themselves, and just listening, if you will, to young people what it is they want, how they want it, and then trying to look at how we can connect that to the provision across the state, but also then into the community. They're going to do, for example, we wouldn't put something on. It's really, really expensive in the establishment. It starts and they raise the expectations of the young people they get really. And then ultimately it doesn't know. They just can't access that sport or activity around those these person-centred approaches. They may be slightly more costly, more time-consuming. They work. And I think it's about listening to the needs of those young people and the stuff around them as well and working with them to look at what is possible. And I think it needs that really. And that's not a quick answer, but it's definitely an approach that we're taking that's working.

Barry Jones [00:34:07] Yes, thank you. Yeah, I think addressing the question was the main barriers and challenges that I think primarily it's the lack of financing capacity of national governing bodies to be able to address the question of high-quality sport in our type of development work. I'm sorry to keep banging on about finance, but it just is a major issue for us who are trying to do whatever we can within the context of working with hard to reach communities. Our guests were rather lucky because we do have a network of clubs that we can work with, quite apart from the national governing body clubs of which we're all apart. However, I think the one thing that we have discovered on a lot of our programmes is that funding is short term. It needs to be more long term so that we can get the results we're actually seeking.

Baroness Sater [00:35:25] You mentioned the issues around the national governing bodies. Can you just expand on that a little?

Barry Jones [00:35:43] There are no specific issues. In fact, I've got high regard for our own national body. I'm talking about England boxing, but they do not have the capacity within the framework of the funding that they get to seriously address the challenges, which are development programmes that we've got.

Rosie Meek [00:36:14] Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect a little bit on the review, so I delivered this almost exactly three years ago and it was two and a half years ago the government published it alongside the adoption of 11 of my 12 recommendations. So obviously, since that point, I've been keeping a close eye on changes to policy and practise. And I think in some areas I've seen more development than others. So I would argue that we've seen some really good developments around better use of sport and physical activity as part of our youth justice reforms. I've been delighted to see that the youth estate embracing the recommendations and even having their own action plans against my recommendations. And I'm also delighted to see that the women of the state have responded to my recommendation around a dedicated physical activity strategy for women and girls in prison because although they make up a small proportion of our prison population, we know that the least active and also the most vulnerable population within our prisons. And some of the stories that women in prison told me as part of my review were really quite shocking. And I'm relieved to hear that there have been some developments there. But let's be realistic. There are around seventy-eight thousand people in prison at the moment and about 95 per cent of them are adult men. And that's where I've seen less progress than I would like to. We know that this is a very vulnerable group overall, that a quarter of people in prison have been in care, half of identified as anxious and depressed and high levels of self-harm and learning difficulties. And yet we also know that our prison population, contrary to what people might think is an ageing population, the over 60s represents the fastest-growing group within our prisons now. And in fact, that's tripled over, I think, the last 16 years. So we now have as many over 60 years in prison as we have people under the age of 21, which is quite a shocking statistic. The reason I mention that is when we think about encouraging a holistic, physical, physical activity strategy in our prison, which is one of my overarching recommendations is that I think we're not seeing that because prisons aren't adapted to recognising the changing needs of their populations. And it's not easy to find some great programmes which maybe target the fit, the active, the engaged in our prisons. But I'm more interested in how we can reach the broader population as best that we can. And I think that's why there have been some calls for a national strategy for older people in prison. And your strategy and your plan should, I think, linked to that in terms of embedding health outcomes as well as other outcomes related to sport and physical activity in our prisons. So you also asked me to reflect I mean, I'm happy to talk more about my recommendations. In fact, to you may already know that the one recommendation which the government didn't adopt with my recommendation that the government should reconsider the current ban on anything to do with martial arts or boxing in prison. And I mention that because my fellow witness will have an interest in that. I think and frustratingly, I did provide in my report evidence that there is a role for martial arts-based programmes in our prisons and that prison governors should be given the choice to decide what sorts of programmes they offer in that prison. And currently, that's not the case in this regard. That brings me you ask me to reflect a little bit on the current situation with covid. And obviously, over the past year, we've seen a huge reduction in access to physical activity in our prisons, which has been a suspension of education and rehabilitative work and exercise to a large extent. But I think looking more positively, we have seen we've had to recognise that in our prisons there is a place for technology. I mention that because usually there is no place for technology in our prisons, but also there is a place for supporting in cell physical activity guidance. You may have heard of a wonderful individual called LJ Flanders, who himself was an ex-prisoner and whose support through his book Cell Workout, which he tells me is now available as part of the cell sort of guidance of the prison service have coordinated. So that, for me is a welcome addition that we're starting to think a bit more creatively about how we can encourage people in prison to be physically active, active. And, of course, part of that is making better use of the outdoor spaces in our prisons, which to date is only used, I think, to a large extent. So part of my argument here is that we can learn lessons from covid about being a bit more creative. And in doing so, we might see better progress towards some of my recommendations around a more coordinated, joined-up approach to encouraging for. Collectivity not just as a way of encouraging people to be physically healthier, but also encouraging them to be psychologically healthier, to become more proactive in taking control of their lives in more positive directions, to becoming more engaged in education and having a meaningful route into employment, which we know sport really can offer, particularly for young men or men who may have become quite disaffected around their previous negative experiences of education.

Baroness Sater [00:41:58] Early intervention work and diversionary work with young people and how sport and physical activity can make a real difference. And are there any recommendations you could give or one you could give that would you think could be done? That would improve that area?

Justin Coleman [00:42:27] In relation to that, I guess we need to take into account the one point five million cases that Magistrates Court dealing with on average per year. And when you start looking at the number of cases that they're dealing with, that's a lot of people involved with the criminal justice system and impacted by crime also. Therefore, whilst we're looking in the system, as in the justice system and through the prisons, that's fine. But we've also got the other parts of our criminal justice system which vary with us to is what the police are dealing with and what the courts are dealing with. And so I guess it's about using that leverage in the sense of preventing because those that are going into the criminal justice system as witnesses and victims are also as important as those going through it and sent to rehabilitation. And that's where you'll also have a large impact on the prevention things.

Barry Jones [00:43:33] All I can say is that there's a great deal to be achieved by engaging with community programmes, particularly where you can bring on board those volunteers in the police service. But beyond that, I'm not going to go further because its been covered already.

Baroness Blower [00:44:17] Thank you. Thank you very much. So perhaps Barry would answer this question for me first. It's how do you address a couple of issues? One, as the Lord chairman just said, is duty of care. And the second is diversity and inclusion to provide a safe and welcoming environment for the people with whom you're working.

Barry Jones [00:44:43] As we major in Olympic boxing, it would be right for me to tell you that as the compliance manager of England boxing, it was my task over a period of two years working directly with the Child Protection and Sport Unit in Leicester, and that's the NSPCC Child Protection Support Unit, to formulate the safeguarding procedures for amateur boxing. I managed to do that and since retiring from the Amateur Boxing Association, now our organisation not only provides the material and the physical safeguard manuals, but we administrate it for the whole sport. So whenever we're engaged with community projects, it takes a primary role.

[00:45:44] Having said that, I've also read Baroness Grey-Thompson's report. All I can say that I applaud the idea certainly of having an ombudsman for sport, but in the main, it refers to elite sportsmen. And I really haven't had a lot of experience in that sector.

Rosie Meek [00:46:19] And when we're talking about duty of care, I think we do well to reflect on the fact that when we're thinking about people in the justice system, we're thinking about people who are increasingly vulnerable and more likely to have experienced adverse childhood experience to wind up in the justice system partly as a result of their vulnerability. So I think that needs to be taken into account when we're designing programmes. And all too often it isn't. As I mentioned before, we have some very well-meaning initiatives which simply don't take off because they're not really adapted for use with justice populations. But I think I would also argue that we couldn't or shouldn't be expecting this to fall to the Ministry of Justice. It needs to be a genuinely cross-department approach and including education. And part of that, I think, is particularly important when we look at vulnerabilities. We know that children who are excluded from school are much more likely to wind up in our justice system. And that's why another organisation would like to champion is a Julie Elliott rugby works programme, which works particularly with children, including those at risk of exclusion. And these are the sorts of initiatives that have a duty of care on safeguarding really at the heart, but also have longer-term aspirations around improving educational aspirations and educational outcomes.

Justin Coleman [00:47:36] Yeah, to echo all the things that have been said already, but also to say that, again, the sports factor is a lifelong provision. Therefore, if it's something that can be there alongside the other aspects like health care and or so, shall we say, the art culture and the media and the social media side of things at the moment, it does impact across the life course of people. As Rosie mentioned, the trauma that people suffer within the estate and because of crime, etc. and criminal activity, the trauma is a lifelong recovery, too. So, therefore, some of these provisions need to consider that sort of lifelong support otherwise, which is very traumatising all the time. So it's about how we look at those decisions and then set things up just so they stop, because that automatically traumatised is one of the short term interventions if they are connected to the long term provision and it does have a better impact than the greatest of awareness and longevity, if you want to see the impact with the young people and with the adults within the system.

Baroness Blower [00:48:43] The answers were very full on safeguarding and duty of care. I wonder if I just press Barry a little bit on the second aspect of the question, which was diversity and inclusion and creating a safe and welcoming environment. Clearly the environment is the environments on the, you know, in prisons and so on. But I mean, we're not talking about prisoners in the work you do, Barry. So inclusion and diversity and safe and welcoming environments, if you have any further remarks you'd like to make about that.

Barry Jones [00:49:15] It's true that the police clubs of Great Britain target hard to reach groups, and that obviously includes people from various communities, various religions, various organisations that we deal with. It's near the top of our agenda, if not at the top of our agenda, to engage with exactly these people. We've gone to great lengths of getting involved in mosques, with travellers. In fact, we feel we've been very successful. All I can really say about that is that, yes, we take that part of the community extremely seriously and we're always willing to find avenues of engaging even more than what we do.

Lord Knight of Weymouth [00:50:28] This is the question that requires discipline as well as brevity, which is, if we were to allow you one recommendation and one only for us to put in our report that you think would make a tangible difference, what would it be?

Rosie Meek [00:50:47] Well, in the interest of brevity, I would just remind colleagues that when I look at these programmes, relationships are fostered through them are equally or actually more important than the sporting or recreational component. The sports element can be a great hook to engage people. But let's not forget, it's about the people who are delivering those programmes and building up rapport and trust that have the greatest impact. So let's support and resources people make sure we have the right people delivering those programmes.

[00:51:34] In terms of recommendation, I think my argument there is that we need to think when we articulate a theory of change about how these programmes have an impact, which is what we're talking about today. One of the key components, it comes down to the relationships that are fostered between delivery staff, for example, be they coaches or volunteers or people coordinating sports-based programmes and the young people and the adults in their care, those receiving the programmes. So what I'm arguing here is that we shouldn't overlook the importance of that relationship in terms of how influential it can be in helping people desist from crime and become more active and engaged citizens and indeed simply to become more physically active and the benefits of that.

[00:52:25] So I think I would argue that maybe we sometimes we get too hung up on the sporting component. And yes, that can be important, whether it's a team sport or really getting something which makes people engaged and interesting is important. But it's those relationships. And we need to make sure that if we're offering sports-based interventions to vulnerable and complex individuals, that the staff and the volunteers who are part of that are sufficiently equipped to deal with that in the most effective way and to have the most positive impact.

Justin Coleman [00:53:01] Thank you, Lord Knight, in relation to the one recommendation is kind of in two parts, if you will, an A and a B, and the first one is to define what sport the development is a lot further so that everyone understands the difference between that and sport development. That is an intervention platform, if you will, and therefore the sport itself is sport and physical activities, as I keep saying, a lifelong provision. It's something that can carry across the sport to where the sport for development fit within that and where this lifelong service, if you will, then without that provision against other lifelong channels and how does it relate to them and support them and vice versa? How do they support those lifelong channels? It would be a kind of a review and then ask that we celebrate that that kind of provision that sport can offer, but also what sport for development does.

Barry Jones [00:54:12] The government recognise the value of known governing body programmes and seriously consider us when deciding where funding should be placed.

Lord Hayward [00:55:00] Sorry, it wouldn't be me. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, just a very quick question. I wanted to follow up on what Lord Addington asked because I thought Rosie's answer to him was extremely good. And being honest is is great news. And I was about the other two witnesses. If there are things one thing that they keep hearing people suggest, which they think, oh, no, we've heard it all before and it just doesn't work. So I don't know whether either Justin or Barry have an immediate thought about that. It's not negative. It's just being realistic.

Barry Jones [00:55:34] I'm more than happy to respond to that very quickly. So, you know, I am very disappointed in the fact that everyone seems to say that and it's going slightly on roses, that everyone seems to think that the sport of boxing, should never be in prisons when we've clearly demonstrated that it is a method of engaging with prisoners, provided it's to do with sports coaching. And however much you press the arguments about sports coaching, particularly boxing in prisons, everyone gets the same response, as you said. So, you know, that's never going to work. But the problem is that people in positions of power who can agree such a prospect in a prison tend to have this perception that teaching someone to be a sports coach, whether it be boxing, football or whatever, particularly in boxing, it is believed that we are turning them into more violent people. And it's absolutely the opposite.

Justin Coleman [00:56:56] And just quickly as well, in relation to that, I suppose it's the fact that sports in itself need to admit that it's not the solution, and so therefore it's a part of the solution that needs to work in partnership with at least the work in partnership with other sectors. If you want the business taken out of context and also with the communities. And therefore, it's been part of the solution. Absolutely. And but it can in my opinion, I always say that, you know, sport is the solution and it's something that we need to bear in mind. The other aspect to look at when we're looking at trauma or recovery from anything or even coping with the traumas that people are still dealing with on a regular basis is that we need the specialisms within that mix to make things work.

• Rebecca Donnelly MBE, CEO, Fight 4 Change
• Ollie Dudfield, Executive Director, Sport for Development Coalition
• Mark Lawrie, Deputy CEO, StreetGames

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:01:54] We've heard a lot recently about this notion of sport for the development of how we use sport in all sorts of different settings, particularly in terms of lifting people in deprived areas of people that have got to displaying antisocial behaviour in the last section, of course, people who are actually going into the criminal justice system. I wonder if you could tell us how you would define sport for development and how is it different to sport and recreation office elsewhere, for instance, is it just a different offer of sport recreation that we would offer to people in a deprived area of Bradford?

Rebecca Donnelly [00:02:37] For me, sport for development is around sports for social outcomes. So it's a more holistic view. So sports for just doing specific recreation would be about getting them fit, getting the athletes out, sport for development is around the sport for the social outcome. You're addressing holistically everything to do with that young person that's engaging. It's more than just physical activities and mental wellbeing. It's the relationship between the coach and the mentor and the individuals that commissaire team-building experiences and the as well that come with that in terms of educational opportunities to grow from that initial engagement within the sport. So to put it in a nutshell, the sport is the hook within sport for development.

Ollie Dudfield [00:03:29] Having worked a number of years in the intergovernmental and UN system I draw the definition there in terms of the intentional use of sport and physical activity to contribute to specific, wider development outcomes. Across the 160-odd networks and organisations in the Sport for Development Coalition, that element of intentionality, of purpose, the intentionality of outcomes is pretty essential. But it's to other elements as well. There's a very strong equity lens within sport for development - that might be equity in terms of access to sport and physical activity, but also some of the inequalities around some of the outcome areas that sport for development aims to towards.

[00:04:14] And in the last part, I this clear specific characteristic which can be used to define a sport for development type of project. But this sits on a continuum through to what might sit as the broader sort of sporting system, our environment. There's also a diversity of organisations that might sit outside what we consider the traditional sport and leisure sector. But that intentionality that equity lends and how to define specific characteristics would be the three areas that are used to the definition.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:04:55] It seems to me that every witness we have in this enquiry and we've spoken to a lot of people actually see sport and recreation and basically an active lifestyle has been an essential part of a decent society. And yet coordinating that to actually get it into practice, nobody seems to take responsibility for that. And it's other than the department that has no money.

Ollie Dudfield [00:05:26] Well, I would respond in terms of the importance of segmentation to an extent and the importance of segmentation via outcomes. And so one of the challenges in the positioning of sport as a contributor to broader societal outcomes is sport for good, sport for change. Sport for development is a very vague term that might not cut across to the specific outcomes that applies to a community. Or indeed, I think the direct your question a department might be looking to achieve. So the specific characteristics, mechanisms, policy levers, programmes to specific interventions that can maximise the contribution of sport to reducing entry to criminal justice, to supporting employability and education outcomes, for hard to reach young people become then segmented outcome-based approaches which do need multiple stakeholders involved, but is very different from a very vague sport for social good sport, for development. And you can characterise between those two are much more specific targeted approach based on outcomes versus a more vague set of crosscutting generalised approach. I'm sure that will flow into then measuring outcomes, types of investment, et cetera, et cetera.

Mark Lawrie [00:06:59] I do think to Ollie's point, it is vague at times. It's not an absolute measure. I think sport for development organisations exist along a continuum which can be at one end of the continuum, they only use sport as the hook. So there are some organisations where they only run 12 weeks of sport to achieve an employment outcome. When I think about what StreetGames does and what we do, we are about both the value of long term participation in sport and the social outcomes that come with that. So we're actually at the other end, if you like, of the sport for development spectrum, closer to community sport and our beliefs and our way of working. Maybe the best way I could illustrate is through an example. So if you think about table tennis clubs, I used to keep reading and I worked with Early Table Tennis Club where Matthew Saiid came through, and to the elite club that has taken young people all the way from starting playing table tennis right the way through to winning Olympic medals. If you then look at the Brighton Table Tennis Club, they have that example of taking children on that journey through sport, but they also provide sport for development, for refugee groups, for people with learning difficulties, sport that is very much accessible and enjoyable and fun but doesn't necessarily take the participants on the journey so they can combine that traditional community sport view with the view of sport for development and making a difference to the individual's life.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:08:41] It's of a very vague idea this more of for development and therefore forth between different stools. You know, one of these things sounds good. Looks good. How do you actually and how do we as a committee actually make that a recommendation to government they will take notice of.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:09:01] Every organisation from your small grassroots organisation to your large charities, all, I think, have the emphasis that what they're delivering is more than and that holistic view, that they all have different outcomes probably, or there needs to be a focussed outcome that everyone can work towards joint outcomes, because then it wants to start singing off the same hymn sheet. And I think at the moment, all the different organisations, some of the outcomes may cross over, but some of them may be different. And I think then the issue comes. And how do you like that small sports club that might be a grassroots boxing club, your table tennis club that probably that's too small for government, naturally, but not know or understand it is to make them aware of the national framework that everyone's working towards these outcomes and then they can achieve those outcomes as well. And it's just being ground sports development. But then everyone's working towards that same platform.

Earl of Devon [00:10:15] Assuming we can define sports for development satisfactorily, how do we know if it's sport for development programmes are effective? How do you measure that impact? And can you recommend any good practise in this area for measuring the impact?

Rebecca Donnelly [00:10:30] So we have what's called an Outcomes Framework and those are attached to KPIs and that's predominantly a funder-led thing. Well, we have our own outcomes and KPIs, but each funder will obviously want us to work towards that. And I think for the smaller groups, it's going to be harder for them to monitor and evaluate it. We have surveys and questionnaires to individuals. We do baseline questionnaires and they're based on their perception of their feelings and their engagement within the sessions that are taking part. And this could be a simple question from how engaged are you within your local community on a scale of one to seven? How do they feel their relationship with their peers is how the relationship with their families? So we're measuring from a baseline to six months to nine months and we're collecting all that evidence internally so it can be done internally. And then we've got IMPAC research, which has been done by the university as well. But I think sometimes questionnaires can also become barriers. So I've got a young person that calls me, first of all on a programme and I've got various issues that first initial contact with someone is is vital and important to make them engage with your services further. And that comes down to the staff member the way they're trained in that individual. So we don't always collect surveys and that information on the first contact. We have to build up that relationship first to do that. But then I think there needs to be something. If you look into it, it's in all the evidence from all the smaller sports clubs. And if not that, I feel that there needs to be that understanding and training and around. The question is and how they would gather that information. We're OK with what? We've done this for 10 years and we've been in that process because we've been alone. But it's about making that process easier for the other groups.

Earl of Devon [00:12:28] Do you report that information because I'm wondering if it's the kind of information that the committee might see. So we understand how it's reported in the format in which you might be reported.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:12:37] So in terms of we've got research which the information that we've got is collated and work towards the surveys that we're using at the moment, I can easily send forward to the committee if they wish to. What we're collating at the moment is ongoing work. So there are interim reports and then there's the six months and nine months. So all the data for current projects isn't there yet. But we've got the impact research and the data for previous projects which are sent on.

Mark Lawrie [00:13:21] And so I suppose if I talk briefly about social network of organisations, which includes local government, measure their impact in a range of different ways, I suppose the first thing to say is that even for local government, the purpose of what they're doing with support for development isn't about counting things. So one of the great challenges we've had over the past 15 years as a charity has been encouraging people who just want to get children and young people active and away from the things that are potentially harming their life to record things. And that is still a challenge today, in spite of all the understanding of how valuable evidence is. So what we do is we provide a national portal for everybody from small community organisations to large local authorities where they can record their participants participation and where they can also look at different parts of the social outcomes spectrum and how they're having an impact. And we help them use tools like, for example, the Youth Outcomes Star, which is a standardised tool used by youth services and local authorities to identify how much young people's communication is improved, how much their confidence has improved, their self-esteem. And then we also similar to Rebecca, we work with academic institutions like Loughborough, like Brunel, like the University of East London, on lots of different deep dive academic reports that will involve local authorities as well as small community organisations. The final thing I would say is that this is a journey and we've worked with the coalition as a founding member of the coalition to develop a social impact portal that is designed to help any organisation measure the difference they make to life outcomes. Using the Office for National Statistics, national questions that are included within the Sport England Active Life survey so that even the smallest organisation can demonstrate the impact they're having on mental health, on individual development, on all those areas that we know sport can impact upon. But it's so hard to capture the data.

Earl of Devon [00:15:36] Thank you, that's very helpful and interesting to really understand the challenges of capturing that sort of data. Ollie, perhaps you can give us your view on this question and particularly if you've seen any good examples of overvaluation from the UK and overseas.

Ollie Dudfield [00:15:52] Certainly, I think there are two leading points. We talk about sports contribution to water outcomes, not just at an intervention level or project and programmatic level, but also can be at a policy level. And so the question around that more macro-level measurement is quite important indeed. You could argue that Sporting Futures as a policy framework and certainly uniting the movement Sport England's new strategy have strong support for development focuses that run across those sort of policy documents or strategies. The other point I'd make is, sometimes it's hard to measure things that haven't happened. And much of the approach to using sport to contribute to wider outcomes is a preventative approach, right from health through to the justice system, exclusions from education. But the two main set of principles across the coalition and certainly the network of the college did a good job taking some of the outcomes that we speak about him setting out very clear both planning, monitoring, evaluation and learning frameworks which help measure, measure, impact.

[00:17:13] And the first would be both descriptive and inferential. And what I mean by that, if you look at a policy level, we see an association between being active and improved wellbeing. It's an association. But there's a wider outcome that supports contributing to descriptive measurement. But also we say that there's an eighty five billion return on community sport and physical activity across health, across social care, across economic return. And so that's not why the wider outcomes, but being inferential and making inferences around the value and impact of sport at a policy level. If we go down to specific programmatic level, the same principles apply. Sportage, who's one of the large networks alongside StreetGames in the Sport for Development Coalition, looks pre-covid at the report from young people in low socio economic settings around community trust and around areas around life satisfaction before and after joining the Sport for Development Coalition/community sport setting. And I think we saw reports of sort of 10 times increase around trust in neighbours and about a three times increase across the scores in life satisfaction. We also see then if we move from the descriptive to the inferential strong use of, say, social return on investment, where people are putting in a programmatic and an intervention level as sort of dollar value on on on what they deliver. The other component and it builds on Mark's point, it builds on the monitoring and evaluation framework used in the sports study that I spoke about is being a locally driven but comparative in monitoring evaluation. And by that I mean utilising validated questions, utilised and validated data sets within the monitoring of specific interventions. And those two data points are used from the Sportage study were from the Office of National Statistics Wellbeing Data. As a coalition, a range of our network are utilising increasingly a collective survey tool which Mark mentioned, which utilises these validated questions and data sets. And I can give you a very good practical example. Dame Kelly Holmes Trust, which uses athletes as to put intensive mentoring around young people who may be at risk of exclusion from education environments rather hard to reach. Young people have seen a seven point five percent increase in scores on the Warick Edinburgh monitoring tool before and after intervention. So local driven around how we measure by comparative data comparative data points in terms of some level of validity to our measurement approach.

Baroness Morris [00:20:34] I was just wondering what we were talking about evaluation. And the answer to this might be just a straight no, but to what extent and the activities of which you are aware of, do they perhaps because of their partnerships, fall under the scrutiny of regulators? And I think other churches are involved in similar work and working with Off-stage because of the nature of the cost which they're contributing to. So they end up being inspected when they would primarily have inspected. So my query was, if you are aware of regulators having a presence with this sort of organisation, to what extent are they helpful and to what extent do they help us all in really promoting the importance of what you're doing? Or is it a bit vague? And it was OK, how much do they put you on the agenda?

Mark Lawrie [00:21:35] We've delivered apprenticeships. A lot of organisations that we work with deliver apprenticeships. And that, of course, brings them into contact with Ofsted as a regulator. I think my reflection on that is that the new numerous offset framework is actually much more helpful. So those organisations, because it does focus on the learning in the way that the learning is delivered, whereas the previous Ofsted framework was perhaps more systems focussed. So our view of that was that it was a helpful framework for us to plan our approach to apprenticeships when we were first involved with them. And certainly, our experience of dealing with them as a regulatory regime has been that they've added to what we're doing. But I recognise as well because we a fairly large charity that for small organisations it's about the requirements of the regulator are hugely demanding and really tricky to get your head around in terms of getting them done as well as the day job.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:22:48] Would it be helpful if we had standardised KPIs, which would help both in terms of evaluation but also in terms of actually standardising the way in which we evaluate projects of different sizes? Or is that not possible?

Mark Lawrie [00:23:04] Well, I have mixed feelings about this Lord Willis. I think if you look at the chief medical officers recommendations on physical activity as a standard KPI where you've got 30 minutes for adults and 60 minutes for children, I think that's really helpful because everybody knows that if they're delivering against that, that they're achieving something that means physical activity targets the intention with the social outcomes. Also, the only and I have talked about was about trying to get more organisations to use the ONS measures, and start to build a much bigger national evidence base. The reason why I've got mixed feelings about it is that what we've done is every organisation spending all its time measuring. So we almost need a set of agreed standards rather than KPIs that are... If you are delivering sport in this way, we know you are impacting on mental health. We know you are impacting on physical activity levels because ultimately one thing we do in the sector all the time is we just keep measuring the same things. And if everybody's doing it, and I'm not sure it's adding to the evidence base sufficiently.

[00:24:32] What is the evidence on the impact that sport and physical activity can have in rehabilitation, deterring or preventing engagement in criminal behaviour?

Ollie Dudfield [00:24:42] I think it's it's the challenge, the challenge they're around and as I said previously, measuring an issue that hasn't happened and that's where the effective organisation is about it, to take interventions that have taken the challenges and then how to develop a very clear what we would call a results chain, that the evidence base, the understanding of what is effective practise suggests the intermediate really intermediate results that suggest there would be a contribution to reduce entry or re-entry or recidivism and the justice system. So some of those measures around changed attitudes and behaviours, some of the harder outcomes around moving into sustained employment, some of the harder outcomes around moving into employment or training. And that's where this that if you like, nuance or pathway. You might have heard of the theory of change or logic model, et cetera, et cetera. This is the results pathway where the outcome and impact may be reduced. Reoffending or rehabilitation, recidivism, reduced entry into the justice system. These are the milestones on that pathway that are effective to measure because evidence based and understanding of effective practise tells us that it's those markers, those milestones that are the best contribution that people can make to what is a complex issue, which needs multiple interventions and multiple actors and stakeholders supporting what is a very complex and complex outcome.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:26:39] Yeah, I'd agree that if it could be the joint outcomes that we change, we have to change as well. So I would agree with me that there are different levels is the immediate impact that's happened. There's the longer term outcome that's happened, and then there's the ultimate goal, which would be the distance from kind or the well being to take it various different stages that you have the impact. So I would agree with what he said. And it's all around that not only in the interim, the short term and long term.

Mark Lawrie [00:27:20] And so I can't comment, particularly on rehabilitation. But in terms of prevention, we've been working with Loughborough University for the past five years and working very closely with around twenty six police and crime commissioners around the country to work out what all the critical ingredients of a sporting intervention that does reduce the risk of entering the criminal justice system, reduces antisocial behaviour, reduces the link to serious youth violence. And what we've developed with Loughborough is an understanding of the critical ingredients, and there are ten of them that you need to have in a sports intervention so that it can effect prevention of crime and avoid entry into the criminal justice system. And so the work we've been doing since we've understood that is about training and working with sports providers and sports, the development providers about how to get these ingredients rights, because just offering sport as a diversionary offer doesn't do it. You need you need to have people within the Sport England, you have the mentoring skills. You understand the ability to engage with young people. And as I say, the 10 ingredients that were in our community safety training, backed by evidence, are now proven to support young people to stay away from the criminal justice system. That's all these point, as well as sport in the neighbourhood is only one part of the solution. So you can design the sporting intervention in a way that it does support and prevent young people entering the criminal justice system. But you can't legislate for every other part of their lives. You can't be seeing what they're doing when they're not at your sessions. So there is only so much sport can do.

Lord Hayward [00:29:33] What are the main barriers or challenges to delivering high quality sport for development programmes? And when I ask that question, I'm not asking just looking upwards, but structures and government seem to be, but also a barrier or a challenge to getting more people involved, because I would define that as actually a high quality programme. So you can either look upwards or look down or out.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:30:06] So if I'm looking at it from the point of view that is grassroots think sprung from the grassroots upwards and we need the people there in the first place to engage the people that we're talking about and the young people so that they're always the important ones because you can't have that intervention without the right appropriate staff there. And a barrier to that staff being able to do their job, as I call it, is the paperwork side of it. So although the outcomes are important, although the more innovative solutions are important, although a centralised system, simple and spare time inputting into that system is their time doing that paperwork, which isn't always accounted for because some of these volunteers are doing this as well. So that is one barrier. And then another barrier would be the short term interventions. There needs to be a realisation that when you're engaging with a young person, there's a whole cycle that's involved and these are external factors. These are home lives. And we've also, I say, can stay. This alone is not enough, but sport alone can help with that. Initial engagement with a short term programme is doing sometimes more harm than good is putting a lot of work on the work coaches on the ground because they probably have the same maybe monitoring, evaluation, reporting on that short term programme, but not a not a long enough contact time with that intervening individual to make any difference within their life.

Ollie Dudfield [00:31:43] While taking the advice, I might look up at a structural issue and a lot has been made of all of the projections, all the modelling of eighty five billion return on community sport and physical activity. Maybe less has been looked at the inputs that at support and deliver that return on investment and the models out about twenty one, twenty two billion of inputs. Now what's interesting here is the methodology used by Sport England, Sheffield Hallam. There's about eleven point one percent of those inputs come from government sector. There's about twenty six percent is sort of volunteering and non-financial inputs. And then you've got about sixty three percent, which is from the consumer commercial sector. So people paying for access. At The same time we've seen over the last 10 years the Institute of fiscal studies, has projected about a 70 percent decrease in local government budgeting towards towards sports and leisure. So one of the points I spoke to at the start in defining sport for development is certainly the city networks and organisations which four thousand thousands of groups within the coalition, there's a real diversity of organisations, some from the sort of traditional and leisure sector, but a of voluntary community social enterprise type organisations. And we well know working in Ofcom communities facing multiple challenges. So within the current structure to support commissioning, constructed to support access to facilities, be the leisure or or school, the space for the component of the sector that often have an intentionality of purpose and deliver with the characteristics that we know and support. Those wide outcomes are struggling not just to get to not just the funding, but access to facilities, access to support from different structures. And I think that structural issue is a quite an important one. Is there going to be enough resources in sport of government? Probably not. So then to redress that balance, certainly looking at being very articulate and clear about the outcomes and contribution sport can make to priorities in other areas of government being national or local for me then becomes critical to try and redress that balance and ensure the organisations, the VCSE organisations that are sport based or using sport to get the support and access they require to deliver the outcomes that we're talking about.

Mark Lawrie [00:34:34] At a very local level, three things, I think a couple of them have been touched on already, so inclusive access to school and other facilities is a massive barrier because unlike member paying sports clubs, a lot of these small sport for development organisations don't have the financial wherewithal to pay the fees that it requires to get access to facilities, which is going to be made harder, obviously, with the pandemic and the effects on leisure providers and schools. That's definitely something about hand to mouth existence of these organisations. They are very agile. They're able to draw in funding from lots of places, but they don't have long term sustainable funding that allow us to invest in the people and the coaches that Rebecca was talking about in a way that allows them to grow participation. And then the third one is probably the risk that the whole sport for development sector has about lack of understanding of what they do and what they can do as local community organisations. So not being able to get that message across that you can increase base participation and social benefit working through community organisations. And then at a macro level, if I may, just two quick things. The first one for me is if we really want more people involved and we want to face the challenges that Sport England have identified in uniting the movement around inequality, then we need mainstream sports to change its approach in some of the areas that we work in, because in most of the areas there may only be a community centre and possibly one football club. In some of the neighbourhoods we're talking about, the wider mainstream sport offer needs to be there if we're going to grow participation, not just a sport for development offer.

Baroness Grey-Thompson [00:36:34] Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody. I'd like to start with Rebecca and just ask how you address issues around duty of care, diversity and inclusion to ensure that you can provide a safe and welcoming environments.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:36:48] Yeah, and again, I'd say this starts with a staff, but it's also integrated into our policies, staff, equality and diversity training, they're trained up in safeguarding as well as safeguarding officer. We follow the protocols. Every volunteer is inducted with us and we go for the policies and they're trained up as well. So it's more like everyone singing off the same hymn sheet. We have safeguarded meetings fortnightly where we go for the least of our welfare checks. Yes, so that's basically nutshell is what we do.

Ollie Dudfield [00:37:29] I think a really important question and really focus for the committee through this enquiry. Certainly talk around balancing a culture around duty of care and safe guarding and ongoing capacity building of the diversity of organisations in the sector alongside a compliance focus and certainly we know the benefits that come from sport at each level, but there are some additional risks, particularly around that and not intentional harm or intentional harm and abuse. And so fostering that sort of culture element, fostering that capacity across a diversity of organ organisations, quite, quite critical, I think with that the critical importance of that starting at a governance level and regardless of the different types of governance to the diversity of organisation we talk about, have that it is a consideration right at the top of the governance of the intervention organisation or indeed policy and then ring-fenced investment in this area and gave a good example of how that then that plays out at an organisational level, if there's a governance level, commitment and specific ring-fenced investment in strengthening the safeguarding culture capacity as well as the compliance aspect.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough [00:39:09] The duty of Care in Sport Review, how has that influenced the multitude of organisations within your alliance?

Ollie Dudfield [00:39:27] One important influence is that it's raised up the awareness of those involved in sports and those that sport organisations, those that are using the sport of the critical importance of of duty, of care, of safeguarding, then I think there's been a range of initiatives, including the work of the Child Protection and Sport Unit and NSPCC around child safety and as worker and adult safeguarding, particularly in the context of the shift from sort of it being frightened and vulnerable adults to actually adults are at risk at risk situations. That's certainly one of a number of influences that is that has put this issue, I think, more on the agenda of sport generally over the nature of some of the organisations within the coalition who do work with people at risk, who do work crossing over with voluntary sector to carry out areas of the sector. There's been some interesting learning that's been brought from that sort of intersecting Venn diagram, if you like, back to those who might be more sort of traditional sport orientation.

Mark Lawrie [00:40:53] And I think the very positive thing about the duty of care is that it shifted the focus away from a minimum standard defensive approach to welfare and safeguarding and asked the sector to think about the responsibility we all have for making sure that children and young people have a safe and caring environment to play their sport in. Because having come from a children's services backgrounds, safeguarding can often be interpreted about child protection in the very worst of harm. And that absolutely has to be there. That's foundational that you have the policies, you have that that disclosure empowering service checks. But it's far more than that. It's about people doing it in practise. And actually, I think the duty of care is led to people looking far more at their safeguarding practise rather than just their policies. The Child Protection and Support Unit has altered their standards so that it asks much broader questions about the way that safeguarding and welfare is approached. Organisations like UK Coaching have obviously set out their duty of care courses that kickstart people to think about duty of care beyond purely safeguarding. And then for organisations like ourselves, what we've developed this practise by safeguarding training. So it's actually about talking to coaches on the front line and saying, OK, you've got your policy, you've got your DBS check. What do we need to do to help you make sure children are safe and the environment is safe for them?

Baroness Grey-Thompson [00:42:35] I would like to ask, was there anything - and it's hard because my name is on the report - was there anything that you thought that was missed as part of the recommendations? But I know it's a really huge area and it's quite challenging, but something that really stands out immediately. Or that you'd like to see included in future geotech work?

Rebecca Donnelly [00:42:59] In short, it was quite comprehensive report. We're a small charity, We've grown from like a boxing club into a charity. And I know that regulations we've been boxing when they first started out, for example, your local coach would take you a group of kids to that tournament and think nothing of it. And obviously now that's all changed. I think it's made us think about it. But I think it was comprehensive enough for me as an individual to read and be able to digest and follow, simple enough. So it wouldn't be something I would input into or have anything that would need to be added to it.

Ollie Dudfield [00:43:47] I assume my response is just a chance to say thank you for raising this issue up the agenda through the through the report.

Mark Lawrie [00:43:57] I think it was very comprehensive. The only thing, I suppose, is Ollie's point about culture and how do we over time understand how the culture of the sector is changing, not just the mechanics and the policies, because that's a huge challenge. I think.

Baroness Brady [00:44:27] This committee is going to publish its report in the autumn and we want it to include very clear recommendation for government and others. And I really want to know if you were sitting on the committee knowing what you know, what is the one recommendation you would absolutely insist goes into this report with all the good work that you're doing and to encourage and support people to do more.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:45:10] So it's hard to do that, but just one bit. But I'm going to try and do it. And I guess that. The important thing for me is the people on the ground delivering the work. Without them, nothing would happen. And so it's around making sure that they are up skilled, because I think that the that the what they have is in front of them is so diverse. Sometimes your sports coach needs to be your mentor. Your sports coach needs to be a catalyst for your coach so much that they need to be trained on to sometimes be able to address the needs or they need to be aware of to be able to refer on those needs. So I would say that in the first instance, and if I can have a little bit of a second one, it would be that that funding is longer term. And the reason being that we're engaging with them over a short and shorter period would build up relationships only then for that work to then leave you having to work all over again and build a relationship and get to know when UPS get to work as a staff is so important to us and their relationship.

Baroness Brady [00:46:19] Just to be clear, you're talking about some sort of training programme for the people who are volunteering that help them with some of the skills outside of the, you know, the the physical engagement that you're having and the softer skills of mentoring and relationship.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:46:36] And I think it's about identifying the right training, not only the right training, the length training, the right time and accredited training. And it's a fine balance between having your the coach in the work and knowing that you've got to engage that young person. You've got to get to know them to ultimately get to the end you want, but then trying to free up that work time to enable them to then go on the right course to be able to then do more work, that young person. So it I guess it's on a lot of courses are thrown at us as well, and it's deciphering what the right policies are for the individual. And I feel that different things come up at different points. So now we're doing as an organisation because of covid we're doing a lot more welfare checks and as a consequence of that, counselling has come up. Counselling is a longer term qualification that work coaches need. So we put on psychotherapy and counselling, which is a qualification, but in their mentoring. And I feel that if it was little things like that that we could be aware of and have that training. And I know that the training is out there, but suffering through the training and knowing what the longer term ones will unaccredited and what comes up at what point.

Baroness Brady [00:47:49] So. So you would like a recommended training programme?

Rebecca Donnelly [00:47:54] Yeah, I mean, at the moment we've been put on the trauma training and mentoring, so two staff are going on that, and that's quite an easy and manageable because that is two days a month for three months. So I can manage the staff time in that way. And I know that they're fully qualified at the end of it and it's a recognised qualification within that. I want them to be able to go and deliver with that qualification. And not being a light qualification is and I recognise that there are some qualifications that can train them up internally. But I'd like that accredited qualification where I know that they are. My insurance is then covered for them to continue to deliver with that.

Baroness Brady [00:48:35] And very last question to you, Rebecca. Who would pay for that? We are paying for it at the moment.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:48:42] So we're paying for it at the moment. Yes, but I would say that we're a network of local organisations, so they've got funding for the existing training that we're putting on. So we don't have to pay for that, which is a an added benefit as well to us. So we haven't got to find that that money. But I know that we will find have to find it going forward, which is fine because we we work the Chair and we're fully aware that that's part of that model going forward. But it is good to know that there are courses or what would be available. So better, better training that leads to better people that lead to better outcomes and better relationships and retaining those people and being able to retain them for longer, because that's ultimately what you want. You don't want to put all that investment into a person that up to a great job on the on the ground and and the work they do with that young person. You just you can see the benefit. But then that person leaving as well and I think is also recognised in the coaching industry. And I think that's because, you know, sometimes it's undervalued and we need to recognise and upscale that individual, because ultimately, it goes from the grassroots up and if we have them going at the grassroots and we're not engaging or affecting any young people.

Ollie Dudfield [00:50:01] Development of clear plans - and that plural is quite important - that articulate and set a roadmap for how to maximise the contribution of sport and physical activity to specific outcome areas. There's a model for this with the Skill, Sport and activity plan, which looks at the contribution of sport and physical activity within that policy area, brings together three departments and then a multitude diversity of of of of actors to support the delivery of that plan and really those plans in the priority outcome areas where there's evidence. And there's actors who have the competency and ability from the local to a national level to affect and maximise the contribution of sport, whether it be into employability outcomes, whether it be about supporting at risk young people back in education, employment training, social cohesion. But those those clear plans based on intentionality, a strong equity lens, and using the specific characteristics or ingredients that we know categorise as sport type intervention, sports programmes that can can deliver those outcomes. What's then the role of, if you like, the area of government area or third sector, the area of business which is focussed on sport? I would put that role within those plans back to a similar role to the start up and innovation sector. The role is to seed fund those interventions, those programmes that are going to have the most potential to attract resources from outwith of sport to deliver that water outcome and at the same time get more people engaged in sport and physical activity. A good examples of that of the Department of Work and Pensions providing direct funding to a member of our network, StreetLeague, who gets about a half of the young people they work with to education, employment and training. StreetGames have mobilised significant amount of resources from outside of of of of sport for their likely trusted sports organisation. So there's very specific, specific plans around the contributions of sport to these wider outcome areas.

Mark Lawrie [00:52:33] The risk to the local organisations we work within communities is that they're funded from and supported by so many different government departments or sources to keep that running. And we've probably all seen that through the pandemic. Those amazing community organisations who are the invisible front line in neighbourhoods get their funding and their support from so many different areas on the back of that there. My recommendation would be about a cross government commitment to both recognising the value of community organisations that provides for and deliver across a range of other government priorities and supporting them long term. And that isn't just about funding, although funding is always important to these organisations. It's about putting them within strategy, within policy, so that other actors that have funding can recognise their importance and help sustain their work. I think the intention in Sporting Futures to recognise the range of outcomes that these local organisations deliver is great. I think the intention in uniting the movement in terms of proportionate universalism, really tackling inequalities is great. It's following that with resources and action. That is the critical point to make.

Baroness Brady [00:53:57] And not just on that point. Cross-departmental, working only really works if there's one owner and one leader. Who do you think that should be?

Mark Lawrie [00:54:08] That's a great question. If you're talking about children and young people, I think you probably go to the Department for Education as long as they recognise the breadth of providers that are in this space and don't just take a schools focussed approach. I think the holiday activities with food programme that the DfE have been piloting for the last three years is a great example of how to include children from disadvantaged backgrounds through schools, through community organisations, through professional football clubs, through any number of different organisations that can make a real difference to their lives. But not with a single lens that talks about schools and young people. It has to be broader than that.

Baroness Blower [00:55:04] I just wanted to go back to Rebecca's points because I thought they were very interesting. I mean, there is a risk that the quality of life of any given training is the is in inverse proportion to the glossiness of the brochure that advertises it. So I just wanted to know whether and and you did say, Rebecca, sometimes courses get so just thrown at you, I think with the expression you're used to it. Do you always know where to go for the training that you think is necessary? And and is there some way of you easily being able to see whether it's being kind of quality assured or. I mean, I just wanted to hear a little bit more about that.

Rebecca Donnelly [00:55:47] I think sometimes we get emails across network. For example, there was an email that they up it was around training around domestic violence. So that was a good one for for certain staff. Then it was two 1/2 day workshops and it wasn't accredited. So that allowed my staff to deliver domestic violence workshops under our insurance? Probably not because it wasn't an accredited course. So then it would be, well, where would I then go and find that a call for that specific subject? I would have to go and Google domestic violence courses. And then he's trying to make that up against what would enable me to to deliver with the appropriate qualifications. So it's not always available, but then it comes up at different points. When we face a new issue is then I go and think, well, can staff have staff got the knowledge and the capabilities to deal with these issues? And if not, then I guess he saw that young person being referred to a specialist service or if there's a whole that staff can be trained up to allow them to have the confidence as well to be able to address those issues with that young person. So it's not always in in the one place and it's not always, at first glance, obvious whether that qualification does allow you to deliver a waiver, because I'm always conscious that we're giving advice to a young person, then we need to be sure that the qualification staff got and allows us to give the young person, because otherwise we're giving wrong advice in a way.