(Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor to make a statement on
financial support for the self-employed in the light of the
covid-19 pandemic.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury ()
We know that many self-employed people are in real distress, but
we are working urgently to address this problem, and I say to the
self-employed: we have not forgotten you—help is coming. But the
policy and delivery are complex, and we cannot and should not
rush to announce a scheme that gives rise to more questions than
it answers. The Chancellor has held meetings this morning with
representatives of the self-employed and will continue to meet
them this afternoon.
It is important to remember that covid-19 is an urgent challenge
to our entire economy, affecting workers of all types. It is
essential that we respond swiftly, so that people can keep their
jobs and businesses can carry on. That is the basis of our
coherent, co-ordinated and comprehensive plan. It is a plan that
gives those on the frontline the tools they need to tackle the
virus, with all the support the NHS needs, backed up by an
initial £5 billion fund for public services. It is a plan that
puts a shoulder behind business with a statutory sick pay relief
package for small and medium-sized enterprises, business rates
holidays for all retail hospitality, leisure and nursery
businesses in England, and grant funding for small enterprises,
as well as support through Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’
time to pay scheme. As of yesterday, businesses with cash-flow
concerns are also able to access the coronavirus business
interruption loan scheme, offering up to £5 million for SMEs
through the British Business Bank. For larger
firms—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. It might be easier if Members pass notes down the line,
rather than going round and speaking to everybody.
The coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, on which
Members across the House have raised questions, is now available,
offering up to £5 million for SMEs through the British Business
Bank. For larger firms, the Bank of England is providing a new
facility to help support liquidity.
I urge all Members of the House to continue speaking—as I know
many are doing—to the business leaders in their constituencies
and ensure they are aware that they are not alone and that help
is coming. In this House, we are all standing behind business and
everyone who works in it. To encourage businesses to retain
staff, we are deferring VAT, and my right hon. Friend the
Chancellor has announced the job retention scheme to facilitate
that.
Taken together, this is a huge programme of support, and we will
keep thousands of workers in jobs, but we know that there are
thousands of self-employed people who have been wondering what
the future holds for them. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor
has already set out a range of measures in support. Sole traders
and freelancers will be able to access the business interruption
loan scheme as long as activity is channelled through a business
account. We are also removing the minimum income floor for the
self-employed workers affected by coronavirus so that they too
can access universal credit in full. That is not only the
standard allowance, but a wider package of support for those with
children, disabilities or, indeed, housing needs. At the same
time, the next self-assessment income tax payments will be
deferred until January 2021, helping those who have set money
aside for those payments with immediate cash flow. That means
there is a package on tax, on loans and, more widely, through
universal credit, to support those with that safety net.
Let me reassure everyone in this House and the self-employed
people they represent that further help is indeed coming, but we
have to make sure we get this right and that we target the right
support to those who are most in need. The Chancellor will
provide a further update on support for the self-employed in the
coming days.
I thank the Chief Secretary to the Treasury for that answer. He
knows that parties on all sides of the House have been supportive
of the way in which the Chancellor and the Treasury have given
support to businesses and to employees. But I have to tell him
that the 5 million self-employed people across the country, who
are in all our constituencies, are in real stress and are deeply
worried. While we all understand that there are complications,
the Government have to move as fast as possible to meet their
concerns, because they are literally, in many cases, simply
running out of money.
I want to say to those on the Treasury Bench that it is important
we remember who the self-employed are: 80% of the 5 million
self-employed are sole traders. They are our neighbours, our
friends, our family. The vast majority are not wealthy people.
They are cleaners, taxi drivers, plumbers, hairdressers; they are
musicians, tutors, journalists; and they are builders,
electricians and child minders. These people are literally
running out of money now, and we have to support them.
Of course there will be stories about wealthy people who are
self-employed, but they are the minority. If we look at the
figures from HMRC’s own data, 36% of sole traders—the majority of
the self-employed—have taxable incomes of less than £10,000 a
year. That compares with just 15% of employees on incomes that
low. We are talking about people on low incomes: 60% have profits
of less than £10,000 a year. These people were struggling before
the coronavirus pandemic, and they are now facing ruin.
I think that an urgent package of help is needed now, and it
needs to be at least the equivalent of that offered to employees.
While we all know the problems that the Treasury is facing, may I
say to the Chief Secretary that if the package is capped as it
was for employees, if it is temporary as it was for employees
and, especially for the self-employed, if there is some sort of
clawback mechanism if people are given money that they did not
need, surely we can come together as a House and as a country to
make sure these people get the support they need? It is not
uncommon for the self-employed, when they do their annual
self-assessment tax return, to have to pay money back to the
Treasury. Surely, if money is given now so they can deal with
cash flow—capped, in a temporary scheme—then that money can be
clawed back the next time they do their self-assessment, if it
turns out that they did not need it.
I honestly urge those on the Treasury Bench to move fast, and not
to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. People need the
money now: please act now.
The right hon. Gentleman is right to emphasise the importance of
timing and speed in this regard. He spoke about how that can be
targeted and the fact that there are many very deserving causes
within the population, but it is probably useful to draw the
House’s attention to the fact that one in 10 of those who are
self-employed are over state pension age. Over two in 10,
according to the 2017-18 figures, were earning less than £2,000,
which suggests that it was not their main source of income.
Between one and a half and two out of 10 are already on universal
credit. Some remainders will be quite well paid, such as law
partners and so on, and some will be in employment and returning
self-employment tax forms for part of their income in addition to
their employment. The point is that the population itself is
complex and we need to ensure that the measures are targeted
correctly.
The right hon. Gentleman raised the mechanism. One of the themes
that has informed the Treasury’s approach is this: what is
operationally deliverable? That is one of the things we are
working through. For example, HMRC does not hold people’s bank
accounts, which is why the support the package for those in
employment was through the PAYE—pay-as-you-earn—system. As my
right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out at Treasury questions,
tax data is one and a half years old. Those are the issues we are
working through. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right
that urgency is important—that is why the Chancellor is engaged
on this—but we are seeking to target a complex population.
(Altrincham and Sale
West) (Con)
Recognising the complexity of solving this problem, can my right
hon. Friend give some indication of how quickly we can expect to
have at least an interim solution in place for those who are
desperate for help and desperate for clarity at this point?
For some within this population—not all—there will be some
solution already through the £5 million loan that is available as
of yesterday. That will not cover the entirety of this
population, but, in accordance with the business needs of some
who are self-employed, there is support. For some of the
population—again, by no means all—there will be some relief
through some of the measures the Chancellor set out on property
and business rate relief, but part of the complexity of the
target population is that different measures work for different
groups. That is part of what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor
is working through, but I recognise the point my hon. Friend the
Member for Altrincham and Sale West ( ) and others have raised.
We do recognise the importance of timing on this issue.
(Hayes and Harlington)
(Lab)
Can I say to the right hon. Gentleman and other Members that no
one is looking for a row over this? We are looking for a
solution. The reason some Members became irritated earlier was
the emphasis, in one of the Chancellor’s responses, on the rich
self-employed. They are not the people who are contacting us. The
ones who are contacting me at the moment are the plumbers and the
hairdressers. Yes, some freelance artists and others are in
desperate straits, but I do not think there is a Member who has
not received representations. We are just looking for something
we can go back with today to give them some assurance. We know
how complicated it is, but we have to find a solution quickly. I
urge the Government to at least set a deadline, so we can go back
to our members and say, “By the end of this week, there will be a
proposal brought forward.”
The other assurance that people want was raised by the right hon.
Member for Kingston and Surbiton ( ).
If we can go back and say, “You will get the equivalent of the
80% or whatever that was offered to other workers,” it would lift
people’s spirits that something was on the way.
Many self-employed workers, just like other workers, are having
to sign themselves off sick. They do not have access to statutory
sick pay—still. I have to say that asking people to survive on
£94.25 a week is just an impossible ask. When the Secretary of
State for Health was asked on television last week whether he
could live on it, he said no. I agree with him. We need the level
of sick pay raised for everybody if we are expecting them to
choose not to work, and not have to choose between health and
hardship.
Finally, in Treasury questions my right hon. Friend the Member
for North Durham (Mr Jones) raised a point about different
categories of workers. I know that it is complicated, but we do
have to consider agency workers. I have had many emails and
telephone calls from people working in the construction sector
who do not know whether they should be at work today, or whether
they would be safe if they were. Let us use this opportunity to
look at the exploitation by payroll companies and umbrella
companies of people who in many instances are forcibly designated
as self-employed.
We do not want a row over this; we want to work with the
Government. In fact, Anneliese and I are happy to come and work a
shift in the Treasury, if that is what Ministers want.
[Interruption.] We might come up with slightly different
solutions. We need this quickly and we need it to be effective as
soon as possible.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am aiming for this to last until about 1.20 pm.
May I first welcome the constructive tone that the right hon.
Gentleman has struck? His offer to come to the Treasury might
contravene some of the recent social distancing requirements, but
I appreciate the spirit in which it was made. He is right that we
need to move at pace and to work together. That is why my right
hon. Friend the Chancellor was involved in further meetings this
morning, as he will be later today, as we work through how to
take this forward.
The Chancellor was drawing attention to the complexity of the
target population. I think that a number of Members would have
concerns, not least as we look to the future, if we were
subsidising some very wealthy self-employed people. I take the
point that they are not the ones getting in touch with the right
hon. Gentleman, but it is important that our approach is mindful
of the target population.
The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of reassurance, which
is a legitimate concern, and one shared across the House. I draw
the attention of his constituents, and those of colleagues across
the House, to the Chancellor’s comments this morning. We are
working at pace on this and we recognise the issue being raised.
I hope that provides reassurance, certainly in terms of an
announcement, although the operation of any solution may take
further time, as the Chancellor set out.
Considerable work is being done, but the population is complex.
We are looking at the burdens of different delivery mechanisms,
whether on the Department for Work and Pensions or local
authorities, which have their own staffing pressures because of
the number who are ill. That is why we are exercising flexibility
in lots of other areas in order to reprioritise resources, but it
is important that the scheme is deliverable and mindful of the
other challenges we are dealing with.
(Gainsborough) (Con)
May I make a point from a public accounts point of view by urging
the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to consider a system that is
humane, rapid and, above all, simple? The Treasury and the
Department for Work and Pensions have traditionally been obsessed
with complexity, targeting and clawback, but what we need is a
simple system. About 40 years ago I suggested having a universal
basic income to Mrs Thatcher, and I got an earful for my pains.
But we need something like that, which could be rolled out very
simply and claimed by taxi drivers, cleaners and those sorts of
people, because rich people would not bother with it. So just get
on with it, make it simple and do it now.
My right hon. Friend wants us to get on with it. I refer him to
the meetings and the considerable work being done to allow us to
get on with it. As a former Chair of the Public Accounts
Committee, he well knows that many policy ideas start with the
simple but then the devil is in the detail of delivery. I recall
many an interview that he has given to draw attention to simple
schemes that were then less simple in their delivery. It is worth
bearing in mind that a small number of self-employed people—a
very small proportion—might be doing quite well in the current
climate, while many others are suffering, but that is not what we
are focusing on now. The question that we are seeking to address
is how we target our measures at those who are most deserving,
which is what the attention of the House is focused on, and we
need to ensure that the scheme that is brought forward does
likewise.
(Glasgow South West)
(SNP)
Years ago, I read in the newspapers that there was a red Ed in
the House of Commons; I did not realise that it was the right
hon. Member for Gainsborough ( ).
I, too, will try to strike a conciliatory tone in talking to the
Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Obviously, there is very real
concern. Like other hon. Members, I have been bombarded with
emails from people who are self-employed. When this crisis is
over, we should really sort out who is self-employed and who
should be directly employed, but that is a debate for another
time. Countries such as Norway, Denmark and Belgium have come up
with schemes for the self-employed; is he looking at those
international examples? Surely what works in those countries can
work in the UK. There are 330,000 self-employed workers in
Scotland, working in areas such as the creative industries,
agriculture, forestry, fishing, construction, and as taxi
drivers. Are the Government looking at increasing weekly sick pay
from £94.25 to the equivalent of a week’s pay at the real living
wage? Are they considering removing the lower earnings limit for
qualification for sick pay to ensure that everyone can access it?
Are they looking at ending the five-week wait for universal
credit, so that the first payment is a grant—a real payment—and
not a loan?
On the issue of advance payments and universal credit, the
Chancellor has increased the standard allowance. That is not the
total quantum that people will get; I referred earlier to those
with children, housing needs or a disability, who would get more.
We have also made changes to access, so that people can get
payment quickly, from day one, without face-to-face meetings.
Concerns about subsequent repayments have often been raised in
the House, but clearly, the £20 a week increase in universal
credit that has been announced eases some of the repayment
issues; it means that there is more in the allowance with which
to address the issue of repayments. There has been a significant
increase in universal credit, in part to address those issues.
There is some operational complexity around a shift to a grant
system because of the way that the universal credit IT system has
been set up. We have sought to address the concern to which the
hon. Gentleman refers through the increase, and of course an
advance can still be offered.
Changes have been made to facilitate statutory sick pay being
paid from day one, and changes have been made in respect of
employers with 250 or fewer employees; the Chancellor set out
measures to support those businesses with those costs.
The hon. Gentleman made a point relating to what I said about
simplicity in a previous answer. Let me clarify the point that I
was making. The vast majority of people who are self-employed are
suffering; we recognise that. We are looking at how we can design
a scheme that addresses the operational challenge that Members
have spoken about.
Let me give an example. Part of the merit of the scheme that the
Chancellor set out on furloughing members of staff, which is, I
think, for many people a new concept, is that it gave clarity
about delivery of the scheme. In answer to the previous question
and the issue that the hon. Gentleman raises, we are looking at
what is operationally deliverable quickly; what recognises other
challenges in the Department for Work and Pensions and elsewhere;
and what will not result in support going to a small proportion
of people who should not be getting this targeted action, and
instead allow us to focus it on the much larger cadre of people
who deserve that help.
(Scarborough and
Whitby) (Con)
In designing his scheme, will the Chief Secretary to the Treasury
recognise that many self-employed people in the tourism sector
have very seasonal businesses, so using February, for example, as
a reference month would not be appropriate? Will he see what can
be done to help recreational charter fishermen, who, because they
pay harbour dues rather than business rates, have not been able
to access the grant aid that their friends across the road from
the harbour have been able to?
My right hon. Friend draws attention to the challenge that
emerged from some earlier questions: the simpler the scheme, the
less it accommodates often legitimate and deserving issues that
Members raise on behalf of their constituents. I am very happy to
have further discussions with him, but he will recognise the
tension between simplicity and addressing all the concerns that
colleagues raise.
(Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
Two of my constituents are musicians. One is in an orchestra, and
the other is a freelancer. One will get 80% of his income paid,
and the other will be on statutory sick pay. Surely, it would be
better to have a system where one wealthy freelancer benefits but
100 do not go hungry.
I refer to my earlier comments. We are trying to target the
support towards those who are in need, in a way that is
operationally as deliverable as possible, mindful of the issues
that have been raised. We also want to accommodate the other
point that colleagues from across the House have raised, namely
that we must ensure that those who have legitimate needs are not
excluded from the measures.
(New Forest East)
(Con)
Will Ministers consider suspending the application of the loan
charge for the period of this emergency, thus stopping the
hounding of the self-employed people who were the subject of an
important debate in this place last week?
I can provide a degree of reassurance to my right hon. Friend
that the self-assessment has been deferred from July to August.
That is one of the areas where the Chancellor has taken action to
address concerns.
(Warwick and Leamington)
(Lab)
Many of us, up and down the country, depend on sole traders for
jobs around the house. People in many communities that
experienced flooding are expecting others to come to their homes
and do work for them. How on earth are those households supposed
to say, “We cannot have you helping us out and repairing our
homes?” They are desperate for plumbers, electricians and so on.
Those electricians, those plumbers and the owners of those
properties want to do the right thing. What is the advice of the
Government?
Without straying into individual cases, the key advice from the
Government is to follow the medical advice that was set out
following the Prime Minister’s statement and updated on the
Government website. That sets out the advice to workers,
including what is safe to do and what is essential.
(Hitchin and Harpenden)
(Con)
In its unprecedented support for employed workers, the Treasury
took a fairly generous overarching approach. I urge the
Treasury—I am not the only one saying this; it represents the
mood across the House—to take a similarly broad approach to
benefit the majority of self-employed people who will need
support, accepting that certain people may get support even if
they do not quite need it.
The Treasury is looking at those issues in the design of the
scheme. We recognise that the vast majority of self-employed
people face very considerable challenges, and we are mindful of
the urgency that goes with that.
(Ceredigion) (PC)
More than 400 self-employed sole traders and freelancers have
contacted me over the past 24 hours, and many of them have
already lost their work because of this crisis. As well as
echoing others’ calls to introduce support for them as soon as
possible, can I ask the Minister to ensure that such measures are
backdated, as in the job retention scheme, to help to address the
disruption that has already been caused by the covid-19 epidemic?
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about backdating. The
Treasury has brought forward a range of measures, and one of the
challenges to date has been that it is not always understood what
has been announced and what is already available. I draw
attention to the fact that we are deferring income tax
self-assessments, which will not need to be paid until January;
we are supporting people through the welfare system with the
measures that I announced earlier, including on contributory ESA;
we are increasing universal credit and working tax credit by
£1,000; we are suspending the minimum income floor for 12 months;
we are increasing a three-month mortgage holiday for those in
difficulty; the self-employed will be eligible to receive support
with their tax affairs through time to pay; the business
interruption loan scheme will be available for some self-employed
individuals, up to the £5 million limit; and we have delayed
IR35. Members of the House can assist our small business
community, and particularly the self-employed, by drawing
attention to the measures that have been announced. We in
Government also stand ready to do that through a comms campaign.
(Wealden) (Con)
I know that my right hon. Friend is working night and day to help
businesses, and to help people stay in work. I am incredibly
grateful for all the support he has given me as I respond to the
self-employed in Wealden. The decision to take out a loan is
proving to be quite an anxious one for the self-employed, if that
is the only thing on the table. I will read out an email from
Anna, a self-employed wedding photographer who has had to give up
work, and who is going to try to find work elsewhere:
“I am loath to take any…loans offered, as there is no guarantee
that future work will be able to take place because we have no
idea how long this pandemic will last.”
I ask my right hon. Friend to take into account Anna’s dilemma
before making any announcement concerning the self-employed.
My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the pressure
and decisions that Anna and so many self-employed people are
facing at this time. I draw attention to the fact that the loans
are interest-free for 12 months. One of the key themes we are
very conscious of is that it is a health emergency that is
impacting on our economy. These were viable businesses before
that health emergency arose, and they will be viable businesses
after we have overcome it. The question is, how do we bridge the
gap? How do we support Anna and others through this period? The
interest-free loans are not the only measure; I have just drawn
the House’s attention to other measures that are available, and I
urge Anna and others to take advantage of them.
(Mitcham and Morden)
(Lab)
I appreciate the difficulties in coming up with these
arrangements, but I draw the Minister’s attention to the fact
that small traders are simply applying for universal credit,
blocking up the universal credit system, because they are
desperate for money from somewhere. That is causing a problem for
the Department for Work and Pensions, so delay does not get the
problem to go away. People do not wait; they just try to find
something else, which causes a knock-on problem.
I accept the concern the hon. Lady raises, but I think she would
equally accept that this is an unprecedented challenge and that
staff in the DWP and elsewhere are working heroically to address
the increased volumes. The best way for all of us to address this
issue is through wider support for the economy as a whole. That
is what was behind, first, the £30 billion of fiscal measures
announced by the Chancellor at the Budget; the further
announcement of the £350 billion, including £330 billion of
loans, and the wider package last Tuesday; and the further
measures announced by the Chancellor on Friday. That is on top of
the measures the Bank of England has taken—for example, reducing
base rates, and the £200 billion of bonds. A range of measures
have been taken to support the economy and to reduce that
blockage, but I absolutely accept that the numbers have
increased, and we are reprioritising work in the DWP to assist
with that.
(Arundel and South
Downs) (Con)
My rural constituency has one of the highest concentrations of
self-employed people in the country, so while I and other
Conservative Members thank my right hon. Friend for the timely
and unprecedented measures he has come forward with, I add my
voice to the growing consensus across the House for measures to
be extended to the self-employed.
My hon. Friend speaks with considerable business and financial
experience, and he will know the cash-flow issues and the
challenges that many of the businesses in his constituency face.
We absolutely hear his message, just as we do the message from
Members across the House, and that is why we are moving at pace
to address them.
(Paisley and Renfrewshire
North) (SNP)
Further to the point I raised at Treasury questions, which was
echoed by the shadow Chancellor, the newly under-employed must be
supported further. One of my constituents is a self-employed taxi
driver with no work, due to the lockdown. His wife and four
children have underlying health conditions. Any universal credit
application would mean their tax credit ceasing. A jobseeker’s
allowance application would mean having to prove that they are
seeking work and engaging with their accountant. Will the Chief
Secretary tell them how they can possibly put food on the table
and pay their bills?
The hon. Gentleman speaks to a real concern and a real issue, but
I draw attention to the fact that one of the challenges is to
communicate what support has already been announced by the
Chancellor. To give an example, a family renting in Sheffield
with two children would be eligible for around £1,750 a month in
support—far more than the £94 per week, if we take account of
additional things such as housing and children’s support. It is
about what package of support is available, and the Chancellor
has already announced considerable measures in that regard.
(Forest of Dean) (Con)
I listened carefully to what my right hon. Friend said. He
acknowledged that the vast majority of self-employed people were
being impacted. If he makes sure that whatever help is given is
taxable, we can claw back any money that is overpaid to those who
are doing well. However, what self-employed people are looking
for is a clear commitment today that whatever scheme is set out
is of a similar magnitude to that for employed workers. If the
Chief Secretary can say that, it will give people confidence to
borrow, knowing that they can pay the money back. That will go a
long way towards solving the problem.
As I have said, the Chancellor held meetings with small business
leaders this morning. He is having further meetings on this issue
today. He is very aware of the concerns raised by my right hon
Friend and other Members, and we continue to work at pace on this
issue.
(North Durham) (Lab)
I am sorry that the Chancellor is not here, but may I ask the
Minister to pass on to him that the self-employed people
contacting me are not wealthy individuals? They are individuals
such as Andrew Brown, who I raised last week—a self-employed
graphic designer whose income has disappeared. They are taxi
drivers. They are small catering companies. Unless action is
taken now for these individuals, not just to relieve the hardship
they are facing, their businesses will no longer be in existence.
My fear is that we will generate unemployment among these people
for a long time to come.
I agree with the first part of that. The right hon. Gentleman is
absolutely right about the vast majority of these people. I have
made that point repeatedly. I referred earlier to the fact that
the target population has different elements, but the vast
majority of those who are self-employed face enormous challenges.
We absolutely hear that, and I accept that. On his second point,
we have taken a number of measures, but we recognise that more is
needed. That is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is
meeting leaders on this issue today to look at what further
measures we can bring forward.
(Winchester) (Con)
May I say that I do understand that this is difficult? If it were
easy, the Chancellor would have announced it last Friday with the
rest of the package. The self-employed people I represent just
want a sign; they just want some hope and an indication. I think
they have had that today from the Chief Secretary and the
Chancellor, but may I make a suggestion? For self-employed people
and all other people right now, if they cannot get the same in,
they have to send less out. The Government worked magic last week
with the mortgage companies, which seem to be falling over
themselves to offer mortgage holidays, but all the other fixed
costs that our constituents face—utilities; insurance premiums;
car finance; council tax bills, which landed on the doorstep last
week; and even, for some, a business improvement district levy
due next week—are still there. I wonder whether there is
something the Minister can take back to the Treasury, perhaps
with help from the shadow Chancellor, on those sorts of fixed
costs, because they are dragging people down at a time when they
have a lot less coming in.
My hon. Friend is right that there is a range of costs. As I say,
we are looking as part of our support at what action can be
taken. He can see, as an illustration of that, the action that
has been taken on mortgages and in support of renters—both for
mortgage holders directly and in terms of the buy-to-let market.
Measures have been taken, but we stand ready to look at further
measures.
(Brighton, Pavilion)
(Green)
The local economy in Brighton and Hove is overwhelmingly
dependent on the self-employed, so I cannot overstate how urgent
it is that we have action on this. I do not know whether the
Minister gave a deadline when he spoke to his colleague earlier,
but if he did not, will he please tell us that we will have
action by the end of the week? Universal credit is not a fair
option for many freelancers, because it means they have to delve
into savings that they have put aside because they do not have
pensions. We are going to push them into greater insecurity right
now if we cause them to have to rely on that instead.
As I said in my opening statement, the Chancellor is meeting on
this today and we hope to bring forward proposals in the coming
days.
(Colne Valley) (Con)
I welcome that the Treasury is working hard on supporting the
self-employed. We must remember that these are local freelancers.
They are mobile hairdressers, childminders, freelance driving
instructors, photographers, musicians, IT consultants and
home-based travel agents. They have lost all their income. Can
the Minister confirm that the package for the self-employed,
freelancers and sole traders will be announced by the end of the
week?
I refer to the answer I gave a moment ago. We are actively
looking at this and we hope to bring forward proposals in the
coming days.
(Sefton Central) (Lab)
The way around the problem that the Minister, and the Chancellor
before him, identified of giving money to people who do not need
it was given to him by the right hon. Member for Kingston and
Surbiton ( ).
The money can be recovered later. Do not let that concern about a
handful of people get in the way of putting the scheme in place
and deny desperate people, who cannot put food on the table,
money they need right now.
As the hon. Gentleman’s earlier question in Treasury questions
suggested, that is not the sole consideration. It is a question
of what the operational delivery issues may be: for example, we
do not hold details of people’s bank accounts, so how would we do
it? It is how we roll this out, but we recognise his wider point
that there are immediate issues for many self-employed people.
That is what we are actively working on, and that is what my
right hon Friend the Chancellor is engaged on in further meetings
today. As I said in my previous answer, we hope to bring
proposals forward in the coming days.
(Thirsk and Malton)
(Con)
My right hon. Friend mentioned earlier the business interruption
loan scheme. Will he confirm that all self-employed people will
have access to it and that they will not have to give personal
guarantees? Will the Government widen the scheme to include
institutions such as OakNorth and Aldermore, which are currently
excluded from eligibility?
We are looking into that, but it is available as of now. It goes
up to £5 million and my understanding is that it does not require
personal guarantees. If it is any different, I will come back to
him on that point.
(North East Fife)
(LD)
A constituent in East Fife runs a mobile catering business,
providing a service to both private and public events such as
festivals. Having no fixed premises means that they will not
benefit from the support announced so far, and the relaxation of
planning rules that other food outlets can benefit from to do
home deliveries is also an issue. They are also struggling, like
many others, to access business interruption insurance. The
independent mobile catering sector could be utilised to support
and provide sustenance for our key workers. What amendments to
the measures will the Chief Secretary consider to support that
critical sector?
I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is looking at a range of
options in terms of how we adapt to the change of circumstances.
For example, many pubs and restaurants had significant food
orders, so we are looking at what can be done there. There is
food that would have been exported previously, but that may now
be difficult, so there is a range of measures in terms of the
food supply within which mobile caterers will have a role. I know
that my right hon. Friend is looking at those issues.
(Harrow East) (Con)
In my constituency I have a large number of families where one
partner works in the national health service and the other is
self-employed. The children have been sent home from school and
there is no one to look after them, because if the self-employed
parent does not work, they do not get paid. Can my right hon.
Friend look urgently at a scheme? Also and specifically, council
tax bills are due on 1 April—next week—and people are worried,
particularly in London, about how they will be able to pay. Can
council tax bills be suspended?
My hon. Friend will recall that the Budget included targeted
action specifically on council tax, with a £0.5 billion package
to allow targeted support on council tax. I think he is drawing
his attention to a slightly wider issue of concern, particularly
where one member of a household works in the NHS as a key worker
and one is at home, but of course that draws attention to the
fact that this is a complex scheme that we are seeking to design.
Those are the sort of issues we are working through.
(Ilford North) (Lab)
I have so many self-employed workers in my constituency,
including more than 1,000 taxi and private hire drivers. They
will understand from what has been said this morning that the
Government have good intentions, but they will respond to me that
good intentions do not pay their bills. Given that there will be
a lag with the new system coming in, what more can the Government
do in the meantime, through offsetting tax bills and also
encouraging banks to be more generous with free overdraft
facilities to help families through this? Let us not forget that
we all bailed out the banks when they needed it, so maybe it is
time for them to do something now.
The hon. Gentleman is right in terms of the role of the banks,
and a clear message has been sent by the Bank of England Governor
about the importance of banks showing forbearance at this time.
That applies to things such as credit card debts, but also he
will be aware that, for example, for many of his constituents in
a London constituency, their rent is a significant issue, as well
as the measures we have taken on mortgages. We have looked at
what we can do to assist on some of those fixed costs, but the
banks have had a clear message from the Governor about the need
to show forbearance.
(South Dorset) (Con)
I commend those on the Treasury Bench for the calm way they are
dealing with this unprecedented situation, but clearly something
needs to be done for the self-employed. One of my constituents
has made three points. First, they will be disadvantaged because
they will not get the topping up that an employer might give an
employee. Secondly, there will not necessarily be an immediate
return to work, and finally seasonality may affect their income,
which of course it would not for an employee. Will those three
very good points be taken into account by those on the Treasury
Bench?
They are good points, and again they draw attention to the
conflict between simplicity and addressing the various specific
issues that Members have raised. One of those is seasonality,
which obviously has an impact. That is why the design of the
scheme is more complex than perhaps meets the eye, but we are
looking at the issues and we intend to bring forward proposals in
the coming days.
(Midlothian) (SNP)
Like many other Members, I have been contacted by many
self-employed people in my constituency who are welcoming of the
support already offered, but in need of the absolute guarantee
about what is still to come and quickly. Going into the shop to
buy essential groceries for feeding their family and telling the
checkout supervisor that the Chancellor says that they can pay
for it soon is not going to get them their shopping, so how soon
can we give that certainty?
We hope to bring forward proposals in the coming days. I
absolutely appreciate the concern that the hon. Gentleman is
quite rightly raising for his constituents. This does not address
his specific question but, in part, that is why we have been
strengthening the safety net of the welfare system, and why the
main measures we have taken are to support the economy as a
whole. That is the best way to get viable businesses, including
the self-employed, back and earning money once we have dealt with
the health emergency. We are looking at the specific issue of the
self-employed, and we intend to bring forward proposals in the
coming days.
(St Austell and Newquay)
(Con)
While many of our supermarket shelves are empty at times, a food
source currently going to waste is fish. Most of our fishermen
are self-employed, but they have seen their markets collapse,
because pubs and restaurants are closed and overseas markets are
closed to them. Will we look for a bespoke package to support our
fishermen through this time and, in particular, to find ways to
get their fish sold to people who could buy it to feed their
families?
My hon. Friend makes an important point, and one that the
Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is
aware of. I am sure that he will be happy to have further
discussions with him in the coming days. My hon. Friend is right,
the pub and restaurant trade having collapsed, there is not only
food that would have been provided to them, but capacity in our
fishing catch, because of the quota rules.
(Cardiff West) (Lab)
I know that the Minister has been sent out with a new three-word
slogan from the Government’s three-word slogan unit, namely,
“Help is coming”, but may I remind him that the previous one was,
“Whatever it takes”? That is what the Government pledged, and it
should apply to self-employed people too. He just said that, in
the coming days, there will be some further clarity. There is
fear across the House that we might not sit next week, and that
the Government may be getting to the point where they do not have
to come back to the House to account for what they are doing for
the self-employed. What assurance will he give us that whatever
“Help is coming”, it will constitute “Whatever it takes” and will
be equivalent to what is being offered to employed people?
I am very happy to make it a six-word slogan, if the hon.
Gentleman prefers: “Help is coming”, and we will do, “Whatever it
takes”. As to whether the House will sit, that is not an issue
for the Government, as he well knows as an experienced Member of
the House. Whether the House sits—whether Ministers are called to
answer questions—is a matter for the Chair, and not for
Ministers. In fact, we had an urgent question last week, and we
have one here, so that suggests that Mr Speaker is keen to
ensure, quite properly, that Ministers are held to account.
(Romsey and Southampton
North) (Con)
Many self-employed have already taken the right decision and
socially distanced themselves—the hairdressers who have not gone
into care homes, the taxi drivers, the driving instructors—but
they are looking for some reassurance from my right hon. Friend
that they have done the right thing and will not be penalised for
it.
Again, that is quite right in terms of the self-employed, which
includes many hairdressers, but my right hon. Friend will also be
aware of measures we have already taken—they will support many
hairdressing businesses—such as the business rate relief and the
grants. The £10,000 grants targeted at the 700,000 smaller
businesses are, again, part of the package of measures to apply
to some of that population. However, it is clear from many of the
questions that populations are not tightly set, and that there is
a degree of overlap and underlap, which is what we are working
through.
(Strangford) (DUP)
Many farmers are self-employed, often on family farms, with a
husband and wife team, or a son or daughter. The Minister and
others in the House will know that lambing is taking place now,
and the first lambs will be sold in July, but the prices for
lambs and beef cattle are the lowest they have ever been. What
help will the Minister and Government give to farmers who face
financial ruin at this time?
As I see from the farmers in my own constituency, there is
considerable demand from for UK-produced food. I am very happy to
continue to work with the hon. Gentleman, and we have often had
conversations about farming issues in the past. I am happy to
continue those conversations, alongside those with the Secretary
of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, about how we
support our farmers, but I think their products will be in great
demand moving forward.
(South West Wiltshire) (Con)
May we please have further clarity on how builders, plumbers,
electricians and plasterers should be conducting themselves at
work or, indeed, whether they should be at work at all? There
seems to be some confusion as to whether they should be on site
or in premises. A leading builders merchant contacted me this
morning to say that it had to shut up shop because it feared that
the collection of the builders outside its premises were failing
to socially isolate, and it was concerned about what that would
mean. It seems that there has been some confusion over the past
24 hours, so I wonder whether the Minister can clarify the advice
for those crucial people.
I am very happy to draw my right hon. Friend’s concerns to the
attention of the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care so
that precise medical guidance can be given to address the concern
he raises.
