Questions to Education Ministers in the Welsh Assembly

Questions to the Minister for Education

Additional Learning Needs

Suzy Davies AM 13:30:27

1. Will the Minister provide an update on funding for additional learning needs? OAQ54913

Kirsty Williams AM 13:30:32

Minister for Education

Local authorities are responsible for providing suitable provision for all learners, including those with special educational needs, and funding is allocated to local authorities via the revenue support grant. I have also made available £20 million to support the wider ALN transformation programme. 4

Suzy Davies AM13:30:50

,Thank you for that answer, and, of course, to be fair, in committee last week, you spoke to us about that pot of funding for helping local authorities and educators prepare for the requirements of the additional learning needs Act. And in the draft budget, you've committed £9 million to two other areas of expenditure, including helping councils deal with the present situation on providing additional learning needs support. And, yet, we do know that, as a result of the UK Government's spending round, the consequential to the Welsh block from its budget allocation to special educational needs and additional learning needs is £35 million. So, I'm not talking about the £700 million headlined by the Secretary of State for Education, which we'll all watch out for, but the £35 million from the spending round. You prioritise your spending, I do know that, but I can't believe that our need for investment in SEN and ALN is so much less than in England. Why haven't you spent £35 million on SEN and ALN?5

Kirsty Williams AM13:31:45

Well, as I said to the Member in answering her initial question, the vast majority of school costs are met out of the revenue support grant. The Member will be aware that the Government has been able to give a significant increase to local authorities this year. The addition to the local government settlement and other new funding for schools and social care totals £220 million for 2020-21, and this is more than we received in the spending round in relation to additional schools and social care funding from England. The extra funding for additional learning needs in England is included in the overall school increases, so we have been able to ensure additional money for the RSG. I'm aware of specific pressures within the ALN community, and that's why we will complement the increase in the RSG with an additional £8 million from my own budget and in excess of £1 million to support specialist placements for the children with the most profound needs for post-16 study. 6

David Rees AM13:32:52

Minister, I appreciate very much the extra money you've put in. I have a constituent who has got a child who needs that type of support, but unfortunately is not getting it because the diagnosis has not been identified yet. But I also appreciate the £20 million you're giving to the ALN preparations for the Bill being enacted in 2021. Local authorities, therefore, will look very carefully at the additional money, to deliver on the expected increase in requirements that they'll have to meet as a consequence of those changes. Now, as I said, I have a constituent whose child, probably in 18 months' time, would actually get the support, because the requirements are changing, from not just a diagnosis to actually the needs of a child. As a consequence, they will have that support. But councils need money to deliver it. Will you be looking to increase the funding to local authorities in future budgets to ensure that—when this change comes in, when there's an increase, and there is going to be an increase in demand—that increase will be met and those children will get the support they need?7

Kirsty Williams AM13:33:59

Thank you, David, for that question. There are two very important points here. Firstly, my expectation is that every single local education authority in Wales meets the needs of children under current legislation, and there should be no excuse for those needs not being met in anticipation of the introduction of the new ALN Bill. There are protections and rights for those children now, and local authorities should be meeting them. Although, I do have to say, expenditure on SEN in schools by local authorities for this current financial year is budgeted to be in the region of £405 million, which is a 6.1 per cent increase on the year before. So, local authorities are investing in the education of these children.8

With regard to the introduction of the Act, you'll be aware that, as I said in answer to Suzy Davies, £20 million has been provided to support that implementation, specifically on the professional learning needs of staff and local education authorities to ensure that that legislation is a success. There will be further financial information available to Members when we publish the statutory code that will underpin that legislation later this year.9

 13:35

Alun Davies AM13:35:17

The Minister was kind enough to spend some time yesterday in my constituency meeting with ALN teachers, and I was very grateful to the Minister for both the time she spent talking with those people but also the conversation that took place, which I thought was beneficial for everybody. The teachers there, Minister, were very clear that, in order to deliver the vision, which I think is shared on all sides of this Chamber, they need the resources, the time and the support to be able to get these things right.10

Can you give us an undertaking today, Minister, that you will seek to put together this package? Because the legislation was, of course, a part of a transformation programme and not the totality of it. And in delivering the code, when you're able to do so, we will be transforming the experience of education for children and young people with those additional learning needs. 11

Kirsty Williams AM13:36:16

Firstly, can I thank the Member for facilitating that meeting yesterday, and for the efforts of the teachers that I did meet yesterday for the work that they do, day in, day out, in our schools, and the individual who actually looks to co-ordinate the approaches to ALN across the region? It was indeed useful to me to receive their feedback. They were very loud and clear that they do not need any further training on the elements of the new legislation, but now need some training in the practical day-to-day responsibilities of doing that job.12

I was also very interested to hear the different approaches as to the status of additional learning needs co-ordinators in school management structures, some of them feeling perhaps that not due weight is given by senior management teams to the needs of that particular role. So, there were very useful discussions, which I will pursue with my officials and will feed back to the Member so that he can feed back to those members of staff who I was very grateful to meet yesterday. 13

The Holiday Hunger Playworks Pilot

Joyce Watson AM13:37:22

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the Holiday Hunger Playworks Pilot? OAQ54910

Kirsty Williams AM13:37:27

Over the summer and autumn, we piloted a number of approaches to tackling the issue of holiday hunger, including working with play and community-based settings across Wales through our playworks pilot. The evaluation findings will inform thinking about wider provision next year.14

Joyce Watson AM13:37:44

I'm really pleased to say that we are carrying out this scheme, and it is helping children from low-income families, but I'm sure people would share my distress that hundreds of families—both those in work and receiving benefits, and those relying solely on benefit incomes—feel that they have to depend on such schemes to feed their children during school holidays. It is a mark of 10 years of austerity, and the changes to benefits and entitlements from the Tory Government that have hit families with very little income the hardest. So, we recognise also that must be immensely stressful for the parents and the families to find themselves in these positions of need.15

You have said that you are going to evaluate, moving forward, and my question to you, Minister, is: once you have that evaluation and are moving forward with that pilot, is it your intention then to widen the access to those who aren't currently in the pilot and to continue access for those who are?16

Kirsty Williams AM13:39:06

Well, Joyce, the reasons why families and children suffer from holiday hunger are ones that are, in many cases, often beyond our control. But I think it is absolutely right that the Welsh Government looks to take action to alleviate the consequences of decisions that are taken elsewhere. In total, the Holiday Hunger Playworks pilot had 92 open-access-play sites and six out-of-school sites. They delivered some 13,000 meals, which just shows you the scale of that particular programme.17

It is important that we remember that that is just one part of our attempts to tackle and to alleviate the problem of holiday hunger. It sits alongside our traditional school holiday enrichment programme; our food and fun programme that is delivered via a school setting. And I am pleased to say that, in the new financial year, we have earmarked £1 million funding for the playworks pilots, and we will be increasing the Welsh Government's budget for the food and fun SHEP to £2.7 million. That will allow us to provide 100 per cent of the cost of that programme, which in past years has been partly funded by Welsh Government and partly funded by local authorities. But we will be able to expand that programme and we believe that, potentially, it will reach some 7,600 children this summer.18

 13:40

Leanne Wood AM13:40:40

I welcome this pilot and I welcome the information that you've just given us that more children are likely to benefit from this. I recognise also that budgets are tight and, with the Tories in power in Westminster, there's little prospect of our situation improving for some years.19

So, I wonder what consideration you've given to tapping into the vast excess of food that's generated by supermarkets on a daily basis. Could using that excess make this scheme cheaper? My office has been collecting and distributing food from a small number of supermarkets. It's perfectly good produce and it would have been destined for the bin, mainly due to its short shelf life. We don't have any qualification—there's no benefits eligibility to accessing this food—and as a result we've had more than 6,000 visits from people for free food, just over the last six months. So, can you consider utilising the waste from supermarkets to enable more children to be fed during school holiday times?20

Kirsty Williams AM13:41:51

Thank you, Leanne, for that, and thank you for your own personal efforts. It is mirrored by efforts by politicians who sit in this Chamber, and outside this Chamber, in a range of political parties who look to take practical action in this regard. We don't actually run those programmes. We make the finance available for our partners in local government and our third sector organisations to be able to, on the ground, deliver.21

But I'm more than happy for officials to ask our partners whether they could encourage and look at the proposal that you've just put forward. We're always looking for new partners to help ensure that not just the food on offer but also the range of activities—because that's an important part of the programme as well, the range of activities—on offer are meaningful, exciting and attractive to children. 22

So, recently I met with the Welsh Rubgy Union. The WRU are looking to do some summer provision and, rather than simply set that up as a solo programme, they are now in discussion with us about how we can put them in touch with local authorities so that they can work alongside our programme, rather than duplicating efforts.23

So, we're always looking for new partners to work alongside local authorities and third sector organisations to make those experiences for children meaningful, not just in terms of nourishment, but also activities that can address issues around anti-social behaviour or loneliness and isolation or learning loss during the summer holidays.24

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd13:43:20

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.25

Suzy Davies AM13:43:24

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I have to say I was very pleased when you amended the guidance, to be followed by local authorities primarily, requiring them to take additional steps before they made a decision on closing small, rural schools. And while that didn't capture all small schools, it was a statement of recognition of the place in the community of small, rural schools and their contribution to standards, and of course the negative consequences of having young children being ferried across large distances, and in some cases of course the negative effect on Welsh as a community language.26

But small schools are more expensive, per head, to run, and to assist with this you've offered, from the centre, a yearly grant of £2.5 million to be allocated annually from April 2017 to support greater school-to-school working in rural areas. It's an annual grant, but I wonder if you can tell me where I might find it in the draft budget for 2020-21, and what use it's been put to since its introduction.27

Kirsty Williams AM13:44:20

Can I thank the Member for the recognition of the important role that small schools play in our education system? On coming into office, I made a pledge to reform the school organisation code to include a presumption against closure, and I am very pleased that we have been able to do that. 28

The Member is right, we have a small and rural schools grant, which is there to support the education of children in small and rural schools and to ensure that it is as good as it should be. There are some particular challenges to delivering small and rural schools: teachers being asked to teach over a wide range of age groups, for instance, and the ability to differentiate, as well as headteachers who are managing classroom teaching responsibilities as well as managerial responsibilities.29

The amount of money available in the new financial year for the small and rural schools grant continues at the same level and will be available. Local authorities bid for that money and they have used it in a variety of ways to support planning, preparation and assessment time for headteachers and the employment of additional support within those schools, or, in one particular case I'm aware of, being able to make sure that that school is part of a wider pedagogical sharing network to ensure that teaching is as good as it could be when, sometimes, schools don't have specific expertise in an individual subject. 30

 13:45

Suzy Davies AM13:45:41

Thank you very much for that answer. Obviously, I'm extremely pleased to hear that it is in the budget somewhere and that the use it's being put to is the use for which it was intended. Although local authorities, as we know, are largely responsible for school funding, schools are undoubtedly affected by decisions you make on the education budget. Over the course of this Assembly, you're making available £36 million to reduce infant class sizes, targeted at those most adversely affected by deprivation, but, within its clear limits, it's open, I think, to quite a lot of schools—many schools. Have you any indication of how many rural schools are in receipt of the money to reduce infant class sizes?31

Kirsty Williams AM13:46:21

The £36 million that has been made available over the course of this Parliament to support smaller class sizes is made up of both a revenue and a capital element. The Member is right: one of the criteria for a successful application is a high percentage of children who are entitled to free school meals. But, we also support schools where, perhaps, standards are not what they need to be and they need to improve, and we also look at schools where there is a high percentage of children for whom Welsh or English is not their first language. We choose those categories because we know that that's where the money will make a difference.32

The bids come in from local authorities. So, the local authorities themselves prioritise which schools they wish to support—they are a variety of schools across all of our local authorities—and I'm happy to provide the Member with a list of every school that has been in receipt of both the revenue and the capital element. 33

Suzy Davies AM13:47:19

Thank you for that answer. I understood that the targeting was at areas of deprivation, but it seemed that, in the way that it's been crafted, it was able to have a slightly wider remit than, perhaps, the pupil deprivation grant.34

This £36 million, though—you'll have seen it in the press this week—has already prompted some questions about its value for money in terms of its outcomes. You've also heard that schools are worried that maintaining the levels of employment of all of these new staff, and actually populating the new rooms that this £36 million may have bought, may be pretty difficult when this class-size funding commitment comes to an end.35

Some of those schools that have used this money will also be eligible for a considerable amount of pupil development grant income, but, of course, not all of them. So, firstly, can you tell me whether you're expecting the extra PDG that you've announced for infant-age children just this week to pick up the cost of this activity from 2020-21, which would soak up any rise in that budget line?36

Secondly, what do you say to rural schools that may have made that investment in staff and buildings to reduce infant class sizes, but don't have access to high levels of PDG, which also supports the sustainability of schools in terms of staffing numbers, whose provision of SEN support, which goes back to my first question today, is doubly difficult due to sparsity and therefore, they can't tackle the effects of poverty in the way that they would like and, presumably, in the way that you would like?37

Some schools in my region really do quite well through the central education budget, but my rural schools do not. And I can only imagine what this looks like in your own overwhelmingly rural constituency. 38

Kirsty Williams AM13:48:54

Well, in my own constituency, I'm absolutely delighted that the cutting-class-sizes grant is providing for an additional classroom teacher at Trefonnen primary school in Llandrindod Wells, and it is providing a dedicated Welsh-medium early years centre in the Ystradgynlais and Swansea valley area. So, I'm very delighted, in my own constituency, with the impact that it is making.39

But, let's be clear, in this academic year, some 95 extra teachers will be employed as a result of that grant; some 40 additional teaching assistants will be employed as a result of that grant; and, with regard to its sustainability, that grant will exist as long as I am the education Minister and through to the end of this Parliament. As for a future Parliament, I would hope that the evidence that has been received from parents and teachers of how valuable this grant is will inform a future Government of its important continuation.40

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd13:49:53

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Sayed.41

Bethan Sayed AM13:49:56

Diolch. As far as I'm aware, this is my last session scrutinising before I go on maternity leave, all being well, so whoever's taking over from me, I wish them all the very best. Erasmus is the core of our students' opportunities to study abroad and without it, as we said yesterday, thousands of students would not have the opportunity to have travelled and to have experienced that abroad. It surprises me that the Tories, who claim to be aspirational, would even consider or hint at the possibility of taking us out of Erasmus next year. If the UK Government doesn't participate in the successor programme or complete negotiations on education partnerships quickly enough with the EU, our participation could be compromised and thousands of students, especially from lower income backgrounds, as Lynne Neagle said yesterday, will be denied any of those life chances.42

Does it concern you as Minister that, in rejecting the amendment to continue to take part in Erasmus+ successor programmes last week in the House of Commons, and the UK Government seemingly not so sure what they're going to do with the future negotiations in this regard, that this is the UK Parliament—UK Government, sorry—playing ideological politics with the future of higher education? Would it not lead to more uncertainty for universities and colleges here in Wales after years of uncertainty anyway with Brexit hanging over us? 43

 13:50

Kirsty Williams AM13:51:21

Presiding Officer, I'm sure I speak on behalf of all of the Chamber in expressing my best wishes for Bethan as she begins a period of maternity leave. If I could offer just a little advice in this regard, don't be in too much of a rush to get back. [Laughter.] And I say that for purely, purely unselfish reasons. Bethan, you are about to embark on the toughest job that you will ever do, and in some ways, coming back to this Chamber will be a rest, I can assure you. [Laughter.] But I just want to wish you and your husband all the best on this wonderful, wonderful journey that you are about to embark on. 44

It's so timely that Bethan raises this question this afternoon, because I understand, Presiding Officer, in the gallery above us today are a number of participants from an Erasmus programme—teachers who, as part of that programme, are able to work internationally to develop skills and understanding and to strengthen each other's education system. That valuable work is in danger of being lost if we don't get decisions around continued participation in the Erasmus+ programme right.45

As we rehearsed in the Chamber yesterday, there is no reason why leaving the European Union is incompatible with our ongoing continuation as full partners in that particular programme, across the entire range of that programme, which supports educational exchanges for practitioners, for those in higher education, for those in further education, for our schools and for those in our youth clubs and our youth services. Wales has disproportionately benefited and has been highly successful in drawing on those Erasmus+ funds to expand the life opportunities for a whole range of children and young people and professionals, and that, potentially, is at risk.46

Now, it is true to say that the vote this week does not preclude us from an ongoing negotiation, and I have used every opportunity that I have had and will continue to have to persuade Chris Skidmore and, in particular, the Treasury, of the real value of that money. And sometimes, politicians and civil servants need to be reminded that we can know the cost of everything and sometimes miss the value of some things, and Erasmus+ is an example of where the value that is appreciated is so much more than the financial sums that are invested.   47

Bethan Sayed AM13:54:06

Thank you. Just to pick up on your first point about maternity leave, I'm sure that there will be lots of people who are pleased that I won't be rushing back. [Laughter.] 48

In terms of worst-case scenarios, I asked the First Minister yesterday, which you were here for, in terms of contingencies that can be made, specifically in terms of the possibility of further education and higher education institutions here working directly with European institutions. And so, can you tell me what discussions you've had with EU partners about doing that? I understand that we're not able to go into specific bilateral agreements between the UK and EU on education exchanges, but I suppose we could be looking at our own relationship building with higher education institutions across Europe, as I'm sure we are already doing, but having to do that in a bit more of a pressurised situation to ensure that an Erasmus+ programme would be able to continue. So, can you just give me an idea about what you're doing in that regard, and what contingency planning is in train?49

 13:55

Kirsty Williams AM13:55:02

The Welsh Government and I have a hierarchy of preferences. Our preference is to continue to be able to participate on a UK basis in the full programme of Erasmus+. That is our preferred option, because we believe that there is strength in that brand, it is well understood, and it is aligned to the strategic goals that we would have as a Government. I am aware that the Westminster Government in English counterparts are potentially looking at a UK-wide scheme. That, I believe, is second best as it does not have—as I said—the recognition and the track record of the existing Erasmus scheme. I have had discussions with my Scottish counterpart and representatives of the civil service in Ireland to look at a Celtic scheme if there was no UK scheme available or the English Government was not willing to invest in this particular area. So, we're looking at that as well as having individual institutional conversations where our institutions in Wales are looking to secure partnerships with institutions across Europe. So, as you can see, there's a hierarchy.50

My real fear, from discussions that I have had, is that there could well be a replacement scheme on the education side, but I am very, very fearful for FE in particular and youth services in particular and about whether there are any guarantees or any likelihood of a UK Government seeing the value in that. So, I'm less concerned about universities, but I'm very concerned about the wider entirety of the programme. 51

Bethan Sayed AM13:56:40

Thank you very much for that. That's clear. The issue of Erasmus throws up some other questions in my mind, where we might not agree so much, I think—but I haven't said it yet—related to the wider health of the HE sector. Media reports over the weekend were clear that HE faces some very big challenges. The Vice Chancellor of Cardiff Met said—and I quote—that the talk of the sector was now, 'How big is your deficit?', not if there is a deficit.52

I understand that some costs, such as those related to pensions have caused deficits to look larger this year, but it's clear that most institutions are operating in the red and there is also a continuing decline in the number of accepted applicants in Wales and a fall of 17,000 overall applications since 2016. Now, I'm sure you're well aware of the wider economic impact of Welsh universities, and we have rehearsed some of those arguments here over the past few months. It concerns us in Plaid Cymru that half of all Welsh students chose to leave the country to go elsewhere to university. We're not saying that they shouldn't go, but we are concerned that over half decided to go, and we do see that the brain drain from Wales that has happened over decades has not been tackled over previous Governments here in Wales.53

So, my question to you, my final question, is: what are you doing differently to ensure that we can turn that around and encourage many more people to stay and to have their education in Wales? And I will say, just to end, it's not about not encouraging people to go elsewhere to study, but we have to acknowledge, for a successful and vibrant HE sector here in Wales, we have to look at how we can retain some of those students here in Wales because that is part and parcel of the issue at the moment.54

Kirsty Williams AM13:58:23

Well, curriculum, marketing, recruitment and retention of students is a matter for individual institutions and not a matter for the Government. We have delivered, during this Parliament, the fairest, most progressive and sustainable support system, I would argue, anywhere in the United Kingdom, which treats Welsh students very well. But also, I recognise that universities are major employers and vital to our local economy and many of our communities, and that's why we've moved to a more sustainable system of funding and why we will see Higher Education Funding Council for Wales's budget increase in 2020-21 considerably as we deliver on our Diamond reforms. But the courses that individual universities offer and their ability to market and recruit to those courses is rightly a matter for them.55

Autism within Schools

Jayne Bryant AM13:59:20

3. Will the Minister outline how the Welsh Government is raising awareness of autism within schools? OAQ54924

Kirsty Williams AM13:59:26

Thank you, Jayne. I'm committed to ensuring that autistic pupils in schools are effectively supported to overcome any barriers to learning that they may have. Our ambitious additional learning needs reforms will completely overhaul the existing system for supporting learners, and will drive improvements and raise awareness of ALN to ensure all learners achieve their full potential.56

Jayne Bryant AM13:59:47

Thank you for that answer, Minister. There are around 700,000 adults and children on the autism spectrum in the UK, and if you include their families, autism is part of the daily life of 2.8 million people, yet it's still often misunderstood.57

I wanted to take this opportunity to highlight the latest measure that is happening in Gwent to raise awareness and to introduce the Minister and the Chamber to Moli, The Cow Who Moo She Was Different. Moli is autistic and her story is a wonderful new addition to primary schools and libraries across the region. The book aims to highlight the importance of embracing difference and how everyone has their own individual strengths. Launched at Newport's Serennu centre, Moli's story was developed by young people with autism and came about after Newport councillor Paul Cockeram was inspired by The Elephant Who Forgot, a book created by parents to raise awareness of dementia. This is the third book of its kind, with another two in the pipeline. The books are funded through ICF. These soft approaches to teaching children about what are often difficult subjects are simple and beautifully insightful. They're proving to be effective in addressing stigma, and I ask that the Minister look closely at these projects and see how these books could be rolled out so that, eventually, Moli's story can be one that all Welsh children would recognise.58

 14:00

Kirsty Williams AM14:01:15

Well, thank you, Jayne, and thank you for bringing to the attention of the entire Chamber the availability of that resource, and, hopefully, I can have a closer look at it after questions finish. We are working to improve knowledge and awareness of autism amongst not just children, but also all of our professional groups, including those working in education, health and local authority services, as part of our ALN transformation programme. That's included the publication of a guide for practitioners. That guide details effective interventions for learners with autism in education settings. And we are continuing to roll out and develop our learning with autism scheme, with programmes aimed at early years, primary, secondary and FE. That does include the publication and the working up of bilingual resource packages for all of those settings, so that enables us, as I said, to help raise awareness, and I'm sure the book that you've highlighted and Moli the cow will be a useful addition to those resources that schools need to be able to address these important differences that exist within a classroom.59

Mohammad Asghar AM14:02:26

Minister, sport plays an important part in supporting children with autism and their families. However, children with autism are often misunderstood and can find socialising and communication challenging in their communities and in their surroundings. The lack of autism awareness among other children can therefore lead to autistic people being isolated or bullied. Minister, what guidelines has the Welsh Government issued to ensure that our schools take a proactive approach to raising autism awareness to promote greater understanding and tolerance of autism in our classrooms? Thank you.60

Kirsty Williams AM14:03:08

As I said in answer to Jayne Bryant, we have a pan-Wales programme of raising the autism awareness of the practitioners that are working with children. That includes, as I said, producing guides and training material for them, as well as producing resources that can be used in schools, and, of course, our new curriculum gives us the opportunity, in a variety of ways, but primarily through our health and well-being area of learning and experience, where we can proactively explore difference of all kinds with our children and ensure that they are understanding, empathetic, respectful and knowledgeable about the very diverse communities that they will be growing in and that they will become, hopefully, an ethical, informed citizen of when they leave our school system.61

Welsh and English GCSEs

Rhun ap Iorwerth AM14:04:04

4. Will the Minister make a statement on giving equality to Welsh and English GCSEs in the requirements of universities in Wales? OAQ54914

Kirsty Williams AM14:04:13

Student recruitment, as I said earlier, is a matter for individual institutions. However, it is my understanding that universities treat Welsh and English GCSEs equally, although individual courses may have specific entry requirements.62

Rhun ap Iorwerth AM14:04:27

You're right that it's a matter for universities, the detail, but there are important issues of principle here. There's more than one case that's been drawn to my attention. In this specific case, the latest one, a provisional medical student has found out that she won't be accepted on a course because she doesn't have a B grade in English GCSE—she has a C; she has a B in her first language, Welsh. Now, the Welsh Language Commissioner has told us there are a variety of other courses where the entry requirements ask for a C in Welsh or English.63

We would ask for an explanation as to why you need a B in English specifically, and why a B in Welsh wouldn't be sufficient.64

He makes the point that this is especially true given the need for more primary care workers who have Welsh language skills. The Coleg Cymraeg told me that in their opinion, Welsh and English should be treated equally in terms of this requirement and they'd be conveying that to the university. Do you agree with the principle that the languages should be treated equally in Wales for a course that provides for public services in Wales?65

 14:05

Kirsty Williams AM14:05:51

Of course, I believe that the ability to be able to practice medicine bilingually through the medium of both English and Welsh would put someone in very great stead for being an excellent practitioner, but as I said in answer to the question, universities themselves are responsible for setting individual grade requirements for the courses. They do that, often, in a way to ensure that the right students are placed on those courses with the right abilities to be able to be successful and to thrive. That individual case I am happy to look at, but as I said, it is for individual institutions to make a decision on the individual requirements that they require of students to be able to be successful on that course, but the principle of a Welsh first language GCSE or an English GCSE being compatible is one that I agree with and one that we use as a compatible performance measure in the Welsh Government's own evaluation system.66

Mark Isherwood AM14:07:03

As the higher education admissions guide issued by Qualifications Wales states, the reformed GCSEs in Wales retain the grading scale A* to G. No precise comparison can be made between the current alphabetical grading scale and the revised numerical scale in England. Of course, Wales also has two maths GCSEs, mathematics and numeracy, and England only one, risking the creation of complications and confusion when clearly we need understanding of comparability. If and when, therefore, universities fail to understand how to compare effectively so that equal achievement is recognised equally, what action does the Welsh Government take directly to overcome any misunderstandings or misconceptions in any universities in Wales, England or elsewhere who may be getting it wrong?67

Kirsty Williams AM14:07:58

The first thing to say, Mark, is that our GCSEs and A-levels and our suite of qualifications are absolutely of the same rigour as those across the border. The decision by the English Government to change their grading arrangements is rightly a matter for them, but Qualifications Wales has been quite clear in their advice that the letter grading system is one that is well understood by universities and employers, and perhaps in terms of educating universities as to qualifications, maybe it is the numbering system that they need additional information on.68

However, because there is a divergence in the qualification system and we want to ensure the portability of our qualifications system for our children and young people, for instance, Qualifications Wales has a dedicated employee who works with the higher education sector across the UK to ensure that there is a full understanding of the raft of qualifications that Welsh children sit, their value and their rigour, and I'm grateful for the work that Qualifications Wales do in this regard.69

Reid Review

Hefin David AM14:09:09

5. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's plans to implement the recommendations of the Reid Review? OAQ54918

Kirsty Williams AM14:09:14

The Reid review recommendations were accepted in principle by the Welsh Government in 2018 and, since that time, I have been taking forward actions in support of these recommendations with Ministers and officials from across the Government.70

Hefin David AM14:09:26

In the evidence that the Minister gave to the Children, Young People and Education Committee last week, she made a clear budgetary commitment to meeting £15 million of spending towards implementing in particular recommendation 2 of the Reid review. But the Reid review recommendation 2 was an additional £30 million a year to incentivise researchers to win greater funding from business and from outside Wales. I've no doubt that the Minister is committed to meeting in principle the recommendations of the Reid review, but the figure that she has outlined is £15 million short. And what she said in response to questioning was that the Welsh Government is funding this research in a variety of different reviews almost Byzantine in their complexity. The money is out there somewhere, but it's very complex to audit it beyond the £15 million she's committed. Yet, the third recommendation of the Reid review is a single overarching brand for its research and innovation funding to increase visibility and coherence. So, with that in mind, can she provide a more detailed explanation of where the money will come from? And if she can't do that today, will she commit to providing that explanation as quickly as possible and, if possible, make a statement to the Chamber around that, and work with her ministerial colleagues to deliver the coherence that the Reid review has recommended?71

 14:10

Kirsty Williams AM14:10:50

The Member is absolutely right, Presiding Officer: we are investing some £15 million in an innovation and engagement fund. That was a fund that was abolished or stopped back in 2014 because of the pressure that was on the Welsh Government budget at that time, and I'm delighted that we've been able to get back into funding that provision. On top of that, we are making allocations to quality research funding to HEFCW in line with the recommendations in both Reid and the Diamond report. But funding for research and innovation is spread across a number of portfolios: mine, the portfolio of Ken Skates, and the portfolio of Vaughan Gething. So, in its totality, the Welsh Government is spending significant amounts of money on research, on innovation across the piece. It can be complex and that's why this work is being undertaken by officials, to be able to have a better understanding of the resources that are available.72

But I have to say to the Member, our ability to fund universities in this way is severely under threat because of the lack of clarity under the shared prosperity fund. Much of the resources that have funded the Sêr Cymru programme, the KES programme at Bangor University—these programmes have been funded by money from European structural funds, and the inability to have clarity on that and the inability to be able to have Welsh Government direct that funding is a real threat. And that's why Universities Wales is supporting the Welsh Government in its call for clarity to the Westminster Government on the ability to have the replacement structural funds, and for those funds to be managed here, quite rightly, by this Government, and scrutinised by this Parliament.73

Twenty-first Century Schools

Helen Mary Jones AM14:12:38

6. Will the Minister provide an update on the twenty-first century schools programme in Carmarthenshire? OAQ54921

Kirsty Williams AM14:12:44

Thank you. Carmarthenshire has seen £87 million invested in their school estate through the first wave of the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme. A further £112 million for rebuild and refurbishment of Carmarthenshire’s school estate is proposed for the second wave of the programme, funding of which began in April of last year.74

Helen Mary Jones AM14:13:05

I am grateful to the Minister for that update. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me asking her again about progress on delivering Ysgol Gymraeg Dewi Sant in Llanelli. I was very grateful when, before Christmas, the First Minister undertook to have some cross-Cabinet discussions about the particular issues around planning for that school, and I wonder if the Minister is able to tell me today whether those conversations have taken place and when the parents, the staff, but most importantly of all, the pupils, can expect to hear that building on the new school will start.75

Kirsty Williams AM14:13:38

Well, as the Member will be aware, the outline business case for the replacement of that particular school was approved in 2017. However, since that time, that proposal has become subject to a wide-ranging discussion around planning issues, which the Member will be aware of. The planning decision branch of the Welsh Government is currently contemplating the request of a call-in, but I have to inform the Member that the request cannot be considered in its full way until Carmarthenshire council prepares its own officer's report and submits this to the committee meeting. Officials are currently awaiting that report, and then will make recommendations to the Minister for Housing and Local Government upon its receipt. Any influence she can bring to that process is very welcome.76

Angela Burns AM14:14:35

Minister, I wonder if you could tell or confirm to us what formal arrangements you have in place for monitoring and evaluating the value for money of the twenty-first century schools programme deliveries, whether it's Carmarthenshire or throughout Wales.77

Kirsty Williams AM14:14:52

Absolutely. Given the considerable amount of public money that is being spent on the programme, both money from within Welsh Government, but also capital money that local government themselves put into the project, then there is an evaluation process. That helped inform the second wave of funding, and we continue to work with our local authority partners to deliver the best value for money possible. I'm very pleased to say, because of very close management of the fund in the first band, we were able to deliver more projects than had been initially anticipated at the beginning of the project. But close attention to value for money is an important part of the robust process that is overseen independently of the Government when approvals are taken. So, it's a multilayered approach, and recommendations are made to Ministers by an independent panel.78

 14:15

The Review of School Funding

Dawn Bowden AM14:15:48

7. Will the Minister provide an update on the review of school funding in Wales? OAQ54926

Kirsty Williams AM14:15:54

The leading education economist Luke Sibieta is taking forward an analysis of how total spending and spending on different categories varies across schools in specific circumstances in Wales. The terms of reference for this work have been published, and it is intended that this work will be completed before the summer recess.79

Dawn Bowden AM14:16:11

Thank you for that answer, Minister. We're all aware that the quantum of school funding will remain an issue until we not only reverse the impact of 10 years of Tory cuts to the Welsh budget but can also increase our budgets in real terms and for a sustained period. But in spite of those pressures, I'm proud that the Welsh Government has provided £100 million to deliver improved school standards, introduced the pupil development access grant, increased support for free school meals, supports the holiday hunger scheme and delivers the twenty-first century schools programme. But can you tell me to what extent the 2020-1 Welsh budget settlement will address some of the concerns identified in the Children, Young People and Education Committee's inquiry on school funding in Wales?80

Kirsty Williams AM14:16:58

Okay. I can say that the decisions made by regional school improvement services, local education authorities and councils will form a part of Luke's investigation and report. One of the issues that was front and centre of the committee's report was not just the total sum of funding but actually the way in which that money allocated reaches the front line and gets into an individual school's budget. And so, as I said, that will form an important part of the report.81

With regard to the financial year we're about to go into, having listened very carefully to colleagues in local government and received assurances from them that, if the Welsh Government was to provide local government with a good settlement, they would prioritise schools and social services, I think that puts us in a good place, as well as the additional resources that are available to me, some of which investments you outlined in your supplementary question.82

The Siarter Iaith Framework

Llyr Gruffydd AM14:18:03

8. Will the Minister provide an update on the Siarter Iaith framework? OAQ54928

Kirsty Williams AM14:18:08

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Siarter Iaith is the responsibility of the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language. I can, however, tell you that the Siarter Iaith framework was part of the consultation on the new curriculum for Wales. The responses will be considered alongside the independent evaluation of the programme, which is currently ongoing.83

Llyr Gruffydd AM14:18:28

Well, thank you for that. Obviously, the initial guidance—84

Kirsty Williams AM14:18:32

I'm sorry—85

Sorry—my earpiece. My Welsh isn't that good. [Laughter.] Blwyddyn 2 standard. 86

Llyr Gruffydd AM14:18:41

Thank you. The initial guidance provided to schools back in April stated that there would be further practical guidance available by September. Well, we're five months later and, as far as I can see, we still haven't seen those. Now, I accept what you said about ministerial responsibility around this, but the point I want to make is that the Siarter Iaith should be far more prominent and central, in my view, in this attempt to develop the Welsh language through the classroom, although it does promote the use of Welsh outside the classroom, of course. And I do want to hear from the Government that the Siarter Iaith is given that appropriate status so that I can have confidence that it is a priority for you as Government, because this delay in terms of the latest guidance is something that concerns me a great deal. You could alleviate that concern by ensuring, as you have perhaps suggested, that there would be a far stronger reference to the Siarter Iaith in the new curriculum for Wales. But the message I want to hear from you is that it is a central part of the Government's vision in this area and that you have a commitment to ensuring that the Siarter Iaith does grow and develop further.87

Kirsty Williams AM14:19:52

Well, I hope the Member will be pleased when we publish the final version of the curriculum guidance at the end of this month that we have listened very carefully to the feedback from the initial period with regard to the Siarter. External evaluation is ongoing and, due to the changes to the timetable of the evaluation, the project will now not be completed until the end of February. As a result, new guidance will not be published until the summer term. Schools will be expected to implement the new framework from September 2020, and the Siarter Iaith co-ordinators have been informed of this new timetable. So, it is the delays around the evaluation work that have led to the knock-on effect. But the Siarter is going to be a very important way in which we develop the language.88

One of the challenges we sometimes face, especially for children for whom Welsh is not their language at home, is that, too often, language is seen as something that happens within the classroom, rather than a living, breathing part of the entire school community in all its regards. And so being able to build upon speaking the language outside of the classroom will be a really important part of, first of all, developing individuals' skills and proficiency, but also sending a very clear message of the place of the language within not just the life of school, but the daily lives of our children and the communities in which they live.