Defence Ministers were answering questions in the Commons. Subjects
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Army Personnel
Dr (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op)
1. What recent assessment he has made of trends in the number of
Army personnel. [900000]
The Minister for the Armed Forces ()
Halfway through the recruiting year, approximately 70% of the
Army’s regular soldier requirement have either started training
or are due to do so. In addition, direct entry officer and
reserve recruitment targets are all expected to be achieved.
Dr Drew
I thank the Minister for that answer, but he must be aware that
since 2010 the number of service people has declined each year.
The latest figures, which I believe are from 1 July 2019, show
that the Army has 74,440 personnel against a target of 82,000;
the Royal Air Force has 29,930 against a target of 31,750; and
the Royal Navy and Marines have 29,090 against a target of
30,450. What will the Government do to address the shortfall?
I think we are doing a lot, actually. As I said, we need only
look at this year, where all the signs are very positive. The
real challenge we have faced recently has been in the other ranks
in the Army. Officer entry is full, and the Army reserve is
growing. The target for other ranks in the Army is 9,404. We have
already achieved 70% of that target in the first six months. The
second we get to 80%, Army numbers, assuming that outflow remains
constant, will remain the same and will not reduce. In every
single other rank where we manage to recruit over 80%, that will
mean an increase in Army numbers. Within the first six months, we
have already achieved 70%, so we have 10% more to do within the
next six months to maintain numbers, and everyone after that will
represent an increase in Army numbers.
(Beckenham) (Con)
What progress has the Army made towards getting female soldiers
into frontline units such as rifle platoons in an infantry
battalion?
I am very proud that there are now no roles in the British Army
that are not open to women, so all ground and close combat roles
are open. We have seen the first women join the Royal Armoured
Corps. We also have women in training to join the infantry. I
cannot give my hon. Friend an exact number, but I will write to
him with that detail.
Mr (Huddersfield)
(Lab/Co-op)
Is the Minister aware that in 1982, at the time of the Falklands
conflict, we had 327,000 people in the armed services and now we
are below 100,000? Is it not a fact that if Mr Putin came
steaming towards us tomorrow we would not be able to defend this
country?
No, that is certainly not the case. It is certainly true, to
quote Stalin, that:
“Quantity has a quality all its own.”
However, the modern armed forces are very different from those of
the 1980s. We need only look at the Queen Elizabeth, our new
carrier, which, compared with Ark Royal, her predecessor, has a
complement that requires just one quarter of the number of crew.
(Chatham and Aylesford)
(Con)
Kent is proud to host a number of Gurkhas across the country,
including within the Queen’s Gurkha Engineers, currently located
at Invicta Park barracks just outside my constituency. Will my
right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the number of personnel in
the Brigade of Gurkhas, which has increased by 25% in the past
four years?
I have to declare my interest: the first Army unit I joined was
the Queen’s Gurkha Engineers back in 1988 in Hong Kong. I am
delighted that, speaking off the top of my head, we currently
have 69 and 70 Gurkha Field Squadrons serving in Invicta barracks
in Maidstone. I am also pleased to be able to announce that the
aspiration is to create 67 Squadron from 2021, and a second
further Gurkha engineers squadron, 68 Squadron, from 2023, so the
Brigade of Gurkhas continues to grow.
(Leeds North East)
(Lab)
We all know about the Government’s disastrous record on
recruitment of UK personnel, with the fully trained size of the
Army, as we have already heard, having now just fallen to 74,000
personnel. But the Government are failing to recruit enough
Commonwealth troops, too, and we now hear that they are
cancelling plans to proactively recruit from overseas. Can the
Minister explain how this decision guarantees sufficient
recruitment to our armed forces, and how on earth he plans to
meet the stated target of 82,000 soldiers?
I have already explained part of what we are doing. I sense that
the hon. Gentleman wrote his question before listening to my
answers and has not been able to adapt it, which is a shame but
often the case in this House. Equally, I think he has fallen into
the trap of reading a Daily Express or Sunday Express article
which is factually not the case. We have always recruited from
the Commonwealth, and over the last two years we have been
increasing our recruitment from the Commonwealth.
Mr (Haltemprice and Howden)
(Con)
I have listened to the Minister’s answers, and he intimated that
we are replacing quantity with quality. Much of this problem goes
back to the Capita contract for recruiting soldiers, sailors and
airmen, which was massively criticised in a Public Accounts
Committee report earlier this year in terms of both quantity and
quality. Today, 10% of our troops are incapable of deployment
abroad for medical reasons. What can he do to fix those problems?
Let us be clear: the House is absolutely right to scrutinise this
Government over recruiting into our armed forces. I welcome that,
because it enables me to put pressure on our service chiefs.
While there were, without doubt, challenges with that Capita
contract, I have explained today how we have already reached 70%
of our target within the first six months of this year. That
contract is now performing in a way that it was not before. My
right hon. Friend is right about medical standards, which is why
there is a series of reviews at the moment about how we can
prevent those injuries from happening in the first place.
Strait of Hormuz: UK Shipping
Mr (Basildon and Billericay)
(Con)
2. What steps his Department is taking to protect UK shipping in
the strait of Hormuz. [900001]
(Harrow East) (Con)
22. What steps his Department is taking to protect UK shipping in
the strait of Hormuz. [900022]
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr )
Happy Trafalgar day, Mr Speaker. Ships transiting the strait of
Hormuz are currently exposed to the threat of being harried by
units of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and, in some cases,
illegal seizure. While the international community is working to
de-escalate tensions, up to four ships of the Royal Navy have
been active in the strait since July.
Mr Baron
No matter how capable, a Royal Navy ship cannot be in two places
at once. On this anniversary of the battle of Trafalgar, given
that 95% of our trade is seaborne, is it not obvious that we need
a much larger surface fleet, including a larger number of cheaper
ships, if we are to play our full part in keeping world sea lanes
open?
Mr Wallace
I agree strongly with my hon. Friend’s point, which is why this
Government have invested in not only the new Type 26 frigate but
the Type 31, which will be designed to be more affordable and
will increase the overall number of frigates and destroyers that
we are able to deploy. In this example, we very quickly managed
to have four ships in the region to tackle the problem. We have
now gone back down to supplying two ships there, but it was not
the case that we could not get ships in the right place at the
right time.
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answers thus far. Clearly
the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is a constant threat to
shipping in the strait of Hormuz. Does he agree that it is now
time that the entirety of the IRGC was proscribed, with their
assets sequestered and sanctions imposed on them and their
leadership?
Mr Wallace
My hon. Friend makes an important point about the threat that the
IRGC poses to not only the region but countries such as ours. The
Quds force is currently proscribed. Further proscription
considerations are a matter for the Home Office. However, what is
really important is that, where the IRGC poses a threat,
like-minded countries around the world challenge that threat and
ensure that it is dealt with.
(Ealing North) (Lab)
Trafalgar day has been mentioned, and later today, when “Up
Spirits” is piped, we will all drink a tot to the immortal
memory. I hope that the Minister will place on record his
recognition and understanding that the Royal Navy and Royal
Marine personnel currently on active service represent the very
finest tradition of our services. Let us put that on the record.
Mr Wallace
I am, of course, delighted to agree with the hon. Gentleman about
the amazing quality that they bring to our armed forces. I am a
landlubber, as a former soldier, so I can only marvel at what I
have come across so far in this job.
(Llanelli) (Lab)
Happy Trafalgar day, Mr Speaker. Yesterday I had the pleasure of
seeing the sea cadets parade in a splendid fashion for Trafalgar
day. I welcome the Secretary of State and the new Ministers to
their posts.
The situation in the strait of Hormuz and the wider Gulf has
significantly escalated in the past few months. We have seen
unlawful aggression in the international seas, British flagged
ships seized by the Iranian regime, attacks on Saudi oil
facilities and a recent commitment by the US to send an extra
3,000 troops to Saudi Arabia. We need to de-escalate tensions.
With that in mind, can the Secretary of State confirm that the UK
will not be sending troops to Saudi Arabia?
Mr Wallace
The hon. Lady is absolutely right that we have to de-escalate the
situation in the Gulf, but what we will do is make sure that our
allies in the Gulf are able to protect themselves by offering
advice about how they can protect their airspace and protect
themselves from loss of life, which is incredibly important. One
of the ways to make sure this is de-escalated is to ensure, if
there was another Iranian attack, for example, on an oil facility
or any other facility in that part of the world, that it does not
lead to loss of life because that for sure would lead to some
form of escalation. We stand ready to help our allies with
knowledge on how to do that, and that is the best way we think we
can proceed to keep calming the tensions.
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer, but the Secretary
of State will also be well aware of the catastrophic impact of
the US withdrawal from the Iranian nuclear deal. Sadly, this is
not the only commitment that the Trump Administration have very
publicly undermined—withdrawing from the intermediate-range
nuclear forces treaty and putting the chances of a new strategic
arms reduction treaty in doubt—so what discussions has the
Secretary of State had with his US counterparts on upholding and
strengthening existing international security agreements?
Mr Wallace
On the joint comprehensive plan of action, dealing with the
Iranian nuclear capability, I have made it clear to the United
States, as have my colleagues in Europe, that we support the
maintenance of that agreement. We think that is the best way
forward to make sure Iran does not develop a nuclear weapon, but
also to deal with the concerns that the Iranians have had over
the years about their security. We will continue to press that,
as we continue to press in the areas of Turkey and Syria for
upholding international and human rights obligations.
(New Forest East)
(Con)
rose—
Mr Speaker
The good doctor and the illustrious Chair of the Select Committee
on Defence—Dr .
Dr Lewis
23. I hope I get an extra-long question in the light of that
introduction, Mr Speaker. May I take this opportunity to
congratulate, for the first time, my right hon. Friend on
becoming Secretary of State for Defence? May I return to the
question of the tanker seizures and the point made by my hon.
Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron)? Does
not the fact that it was originally conceived that 32 frigates
and destroyers would be necessary to complement the carrier
strike forces and the amphibious forces mean that, at 19 frigates
and destroyers, the size of the escort fleet is woefully too
small? [900023]
Mr Wallace
I look forward to working with my right hon. Friend. I think I am
going in front of his Committee later in the week, and no doubt I
shall bow to his knowledge as he will no doubt grill me.
I understand the point that my right hon. Friend has made. All
our defence capabilities have to match our ambitions across the
board—that is the first point—whether that is land, sea or air.
It is the case that our surface fleet is of over 50—of course, 19
are frigates and destroyers—and that means we do allow
flexibility in our fleet to meet certain needs, such as disaster
relief, which was done by a Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship. However,
in case the threat changes, we must always be prepared to move to
match that threat, and we will always keep under review the size
of our fleet, but it is also why we are continuing to invest in
new ships—more capable sometimes than numbers because of the very
potency they pose. The Type 26 frigate will be a world-leading
capability, and that in itself will be a deterrent to many of our
adversaries.
Service Personnel: Recruitment and Retention
(Harrogate and Knaresborough)
(Con)
3. What steps his Department is taking to (a) recruit and (b)
retain service personnel. [900002]
(Harlow) (Con)
4. What steps his Department is taking to (a) recruit and (b)
retain service personnel. [900003]
(Chelmsford) (Con)
5. What steps his Department is taking to (a) recruit and (b)
retain service personnel. [900004]
(Poole) (Con)
21. What steps his Department is taking to (a) recruit and (b)
retain service personnel. [900021]
(Clacton) (Con)
24. What steps his Department is taking to (a) recruit and (b)
retain service personnel. [900024]
The Minister for the Armed Forces ()
We remain committed to maintaining the overall size of the armed
forces, and we have a range of measures under way to improve
recruitment and retention. Those measures are kept under constant
review. Importantly, the services continue to meet all their
current operational commitments, keeping the country and its
interests safe.
The Harrogate and Knaresborough constituency is proud home to the
Army Foundation College, which has 1,100 junior soldiers in
training. Last year, the college received an “outstanding”
classification from Ofsted. Does my right hon. Friend agree that
the educational excellence on offer is a key part of the
recruitment package for the college, and that the qualifications
the junior soldiers receive set them up not just for their
careers in the Army, but for the whole of their lives?
I thank my hon. Friend for being such a champion of this
outstanding college, and he is absolutely correct. There are a
multitude of excellent opportunities, of which the Ministry of
Defence and the Army are extremely proud. These are reflected not
just in the formal qualifications and apprenticeships but in the
self-esteem, confidence and leadership skills the junior soldiers
gain.
In Harlow, we have outstanding cadet forces and outstanding cadet
leadership. They provide the training that young people need and
they develop qualities of leadership. May I ask my right hon.
Friend: what more can we be doing to support our cadet forces in
Harlow and elsewhere to encourage young people into the services,
and will he come and visit one of our great Harlow cadet forces?
How could I resist such a kind invitation? I should be delighted
to visit. Indeed, I started life as a cadet, so I know the value
of it. In accordance with the UN convention on the rights of the
child, that is not a conduit for entry into the armed forces.
However, it is a fact that while just 4% of cadet forces joined
the armed forces, 20% of the armed forces were once cadets.
Our cadet organisations give young people an invaluable insight
into the potential of a career in the armed forces, but they need
places in which to meet. I understand that the Ministry of
Defence will help to give financial support to buildings and
other facilities for Army and air cadets, but not for sea cadets.
Given that today is Trafalgar day, will my right hon. Friend meet
me to discuss how we can help to raise money for a new home for
Chelmsford’s excellent sea cadets?
A training ship, Upholder, in Chelmsford is indeed an excellent
base for the Chelmsford Sea Cadets. It is right that the sea
cadets have a different funding formula from the other two
services. They receive a mix of funding from the MOD and other
sources. Each sea cadet unit is an individual charity. There has
been much debate over the years as to whether or not that is the
right way to move forward, but I should be delighted to meet my
hon. Friend.
In the past, the MOD has offered a number of bespoke packages to
recruit people whose skills they need—for example, qualified
doctors when the medical services have been short. Does the MOD
intend to offer more bespoke packages to get people with a range
of skills into the armed services?
My hon. Friend makes a really interesting point. As we move
forward there are different specialist skill sets that we
need—cyber is an example, as well as medical services—and have to
consider whether or not we should look at different models for
joining the armed forces. One area that we are looking at is
greater use of the reserves for those specialist skills and,
equally, whether or not we should have some form of lateral
entry, as we do with medical services.
For the past two years, I have been honoured to be part of the
wonderful armed forces parliamentary scheme. I graduated only
last week. I have visited all three services, which are engaging
people with amazing work to keep the peace and keep us safe.
Overwhelmingly, they get great satisfaction and lead interesting
lives, but I was shocked to hear that some universities are
resistant to those terrific people visiting and advertising that
unique career path to students. I should like to ask my right
hon. Friend what more can be done to get our young people to
engage with an armed forces career?
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s comments about the Armed
Forces Parliamentary Trust. Indeed, that is a scheme from which
many hon. and right hon. Members have benefited. When it comes to
young people, we are the largest provider of apprenticeships in
the UK, and when it comes to encouraging university students to
join, we have a bursary scheme, as well as have an undergraduate
scheme. There is also the university officer training corps, the
university air squadrons and university Royal Navy units, in
which undergraduates can participate.
(Kensington) (Lab)
12. My question relates to the quality of living accommodation
and local facilities that make Army family life attractive. Will
the Minister update the House on the new £125 million leisure
complex at Faslane nuclear base, dubbed the “supermess”, which is
being dismantled to remove combustible materials? [900012]
It is normally family pressures that are the No. 1 reason cited
by members of the armed forces for leaving the armed forces,
which is why it is absolutely right that we get this whole
package correct. Faslane, as the hon. Lady knows, will soon be
the home of the entire submarine force for the Royal Navy. It has
been subject to large amounts of investment, and it has some of
the best accommodation for the armed forces. The mess itself has
faced challenges, and I will happily write to her to update her
on exactly where we are on that issue.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
The respected and celebrated president of the NATO Parliamentary
Assembly, .
(Bridgend) (Lab)
During visits with the NATO PA and, indeed, the Select Committee
on Defence to Finland, Norway and Sweden, I have noted their
highly selective and competitive attempts to recruit young people
to national service schemes, to the armed forces, and Government
defence agencies. Those are much sought-after schemes in all
those countries, and are highly effective not only in recruiting
young people but in retaining them in the reserves. May I ask the
Minister to look at Elizabeth Braw’s excellent article on this in
The RUSI Journal, and will he look at that as an example for the
UK?
I am grateful to the hon. Lady—Madam President—for those words of
advice, and indeed for that constructive suggestion. I am more
than happy to consider any way we can encourage more people to
join and, crucially—this is the other side of the coin—remain in
the armed forces.
(Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
(Lab)
The north-east has traditionally provided a higher proportion of
armed services personnel than any other region in England. Can
the Minister confirm whether that is still the case following the
recruitment shambles, and can he set out the improvements to pay
and housing that he will make so that the sacrifices of our armed
forces are in the interests of the country, not austerity?
The hon. Lady rightly highlights the important contribution that
the north-east and the north-west have made to recruitment to all
three services over many years. I am determined that our armed
forces should reflect modern Britain, which is why we are trying
to encourage more members from black, Asian and minority ethnic
communities to join the armed forces and, equally, more
women—currently we are achieving 7.3% for the former and 12.2%
for the latter. Last year we saw a decent pay increase of some
2.9%, and we continue to invest an awful lot of money in
improving accommodation standards for our armed forces.
(Gedling) (Lab)
May I first declare an interest, as my son-in-law will soon be
going on active deployment with the reserves? I also wish to
point out the magnificent contribution made by the Carlton
reserve base in my constituency. I want to ask the Minister a
simple but really important question. The reserves are a crucial
part of our armed forces—I know he knows that—but there are
really significant problems in recruiting and retaining reserve
personnel and integrating them into our armed forces, so can he
say a little more about what the Government are doing about that?
The right hon. Gentleman makes a really important point. It will
come as no surprise to him that, having been a serving member of
the reserves for 31 years, I take reserve service very seriously.
I think that maintaining that offer is absolutely key, which is
one of the reasons why I have imposed a target to ensure that at
least 5% of our reserve community have the opportunity to go on
operations, as his son-in-law is doing. It is that offer that is
so key.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
I congratulate the Minister on holding his post, and I welcome
the new team to the Government Front Bench. His boss is, of
course, a Scot, and he will tell him that Scots do not take
kindly to broken promises from Tory Governments. At the Scottish
independence referendum we were promised that there would be
12,500 personnel in Scotland by 2020, but at the last count the
figure stands south of 10,000, so will that not be another broken
promise from this Tory Government?
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman does not seem to welcome the
fact that Scotland will soon be home to all Royal Navy submarine
personnel. I am sorry that he does not seem to recognise that
there will continue to be an Army brigade based in Scotland. I am
sorry that he does not seem to recognise the important investment
in Lossiemouth, as the P-8 is soon to be based there.
Outsourced Departmental Contracts
(Enfield, Southgate)
(Lab)
6. What recent assessment he has made of the quality of service
provided under contracts outsourced by his Department. [900005]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence ()
The Ministry of Defence routinely monitors the performance of all
contractors, including those who provide outsourced services.
Performance against contract targets is regularly scrutinised and
officials take appropriate action when standards are not met.
Latest figures show that the Army is currently more than 9% under
strength, and that the full-time trade trained strength is now
well below the Government’s stated target. It beggars belief that
Capita still holds the contract for recruitment. Have the
Government just given up trying to hold Capita to account?
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the multiple answers that my
colleague has just given.
(North Wiltshire) (Con)
I warmly welcome my hon. Friend to her new post, which is very
well deserved. She is a graduate of the armed forces
parliamentary scheme—that is where she learned everything—so I am
glad that she is now at the Dispatch Box. I very much welcome the
fact that the new Type 31s are to be built in Rosyth, which
should be a very good contract indeed, but what evidence can she
bring forward that the contract will be delivered on time and
within budget?
Mr Speaker
For the benefit of those observing our proceedings, so that they
are intelligible, it ought to be explained that the hon.
Gentleman is what might be described as the overlord, or the
Gandalf figure, who oversees the armed forces parliamentary
scheme.
You know that your comments may go to my hon. Friend’s head,
don’t you, Mr Speaker? I thank him for his question. Indeed, one
of the most exciting things that I have had the opportunity to do
in this role so far has been to set running the new Type 31 class
of general purpose frigate. It will be built in Rosyth under
Babcock’s guidance. At the moment, the contract is being drawn
through to the final details so that we can hopefully get
cracking early in the new year.
(Llanelli) (Lab)
I welcome the new Minister to her post. A report in the Financial
Times today demonstrates that botched public sector outsourcing
contracts wasted more than £14 billion-worth of taxpayers’ money
just in the last three years, with the MOD found to be the
biggest culprit, accounting for £4 billion-worth of the extra
cost. At a time when our defences are badly in need of investment
after nine years of Tory cuts, does the Minister accept that this
Government’s ideological obsession with outsourcing is failing
our armed forces and the taxpayer alike?
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I have had a chance to
look a little at the Reform think tank’s paper, which highlights
some issues. All of us would agree that contracts have not always
been managed as tightly as possible. I direct her, most
importantly, to the outsourcing review that was done by the
Cabinet Office and was set in place by the former Prime Minister
in February this year. It has been very clear and set some really
good guidelines for all Government Departments on thinking more
proactively about early market engagement, in particular—I think
that has been a weakness historically—and being much more active
in the management of contracts, so that when we have great
contracts, such as with Leidos and a new contract that I have
just signed with Atos, we make sure that we are responsible in
the governance of those contracts so that we get the best for our
money and that the contractors provide the service that we need.
(Glasgow East) (SNP)
19. Capita’s record of success in engaging with potential
recruits has been particularly bad, as we see with the
bureaucratic aspects of the recruitment process and the
difficulty with the call centres. Does the Minister think that
this is the appropriate way to go forward if we are serious about
getting more folk into the armed forces? [900019]
I am sorry, but I did not quite catch the start of the hon.
Gentleman’s question. In relation to call centres and Capita, we
have to remember that those who are applying, who are 16 and
upwards, live in a digital world. They live on apps and dealing
with those systems is very much part of that. The call centre is
one part of the whole. That service ensures that young people can
really ask those questions and get to grips with their initial
questions about whether joining the armed forces is for them. How
that follows on from that is something that, as I think we would
all agree, my colleague the Minister for the Armed Forces has
spoken about at length this afternoon. We are making huge
progress in making sure that we get the numbers that we need in
the armed forces.
Defence Industry
(Warwick and Leamington)
(Lab)
7. What steps he is taking to support the UK defence industry.
[900007]
Mr
17. What steps he is taking to support the UK defence industry.
[900017]
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr )
We are committed to supporting the UK defence manufacturing
industry. On 14 March, the Government provided an update to
Parliament on our ambitious defence prosperity programme, which
includes work to sustain an internationally competitive and
productive UK defence sector. In 2017-18, the MOD spent £18.9
billion with UK industry and commerce, directly supporting
115,000 jobs.
I thank the Minister for his response, but last week, the former
head of MI6, Sir John Sawers, said that the deal for Cobham,
which is being taken over by Advent, the private equity company,
should be blocked. The Business Secretary said that there would
be guarantees, but we know that in the case of GKN and Melrose,
those guarantees were worthless. If the US President can say that
the US automotive industry is a concern that should be protected
for national security, what sort of protections do we have in
place for our industry?
Mr Wallace
The hon. Gentleman makes a really important point about
protecting our sovereign capability and I take that incredibly
seriously, as someone who worked previously in QinetiQ, in the UK
aerospace sector. The issue with Cobham is ongoing. It is
currently before the relevant Department in Whitehall. We have
made our internal submissions on that and I therefore cannot
comment on that particular issue. It is important that we
maintain and keep our sovereignty, where that is viewed as
necessary for our future, but we should also not forget that the
reason we are the second biggest aerospace exporter in the world
is that we take an international consortium attitude towards it.
Mr Cunningham
Can the Secretary of State tell us the future value of contracts
to British companies such as GKN and Rolls-Royce and the future
cost of those contracts?
Mr Wallace
Given the recent increase in our settlement of £2.2 billion, of
which a large proportion will go on investing in the capital part
of our budget, the future for UK aerospace should be bright and
looks bright. The Type 31 frigate, for example, will be made in
Rosyth and will be delivered by UK yards.
Mr (Rayleigh and Wickford)
(Con)
Although the bulk of its work in the United Kingdom is civilian,
Airbus also does some military work—for instance, on the A400M
transport aircraft. More importantly, leaving aside the problems
with that aircraft, which are dreadful and multifarious, the
current chief executive, Guillaume Faury, and his predecessor
both threatened to withdraw up to 14,000 jobs in the United
Kingdom if we left without a deal and in a disorderly manner. Now
that we have a deal and are not planning to leave in a disorderly
manner, does the Secretary of State agree that the chief
executive of Airbus should withdraw that threat and should start
talking about investment into the United Kingdom rather than
disinvestment?
Mr Wallace
My right hon. Friend raises an interesting point. My only advice
to chief executives of aerospace companies is to invest where the
skills are and where the customers are, and that is in the United
Kingdom.
Mr (Scarborough and Whitby)
(Con)
Although the order for the CVRT replacement, the Ajax tank, was
placed with General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin and
Rheinmetall—American and European companies—the hulls are being
kitted out in Merthyr Tydfil and the turrets are being built in
Bedford. How important is it that, if we place orders for the
best equipment available in the free world, we should have as
much UK content as possible?
Mr Wallace
Where possible, we should do all we can to ensure a huge
proportion of UK content in all the contracts we deliver so that
our forces get the kit they need.
(Caerphilly) (Lab)
I welcome the new Ministers to their posts. A little more than
three months ago, a prominent Conservative Member of this House
said:
“We must continue to hammer home the importance of sovereign
capability”—[Official Report, 16 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 277WH.].
That was, of course, the new defence procurement Minister,
speaking before she was promoted. Thinking about the fleet solid
support ships, for example, can I ask the Secretary of State why
his Ministers do not practise what they preach?
Mr Wallace
The hon. Gentleman is tempting me to comment on an ongoing
competition. As he knows, if we were to prejudice that
competition, both the UK taxpayer and potentially UK industry
would be at risk of being sued by the other consortium. The
Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member
for Berwick-upon-Tweed (), whom I welcome to my
team, was not the Minister at the time of that competition, so to
hold her to account in that way is unfair.
Defence Manufacturing Capabilities
(South Basildon and East
Thurrock) (Con)
8. What steps his Department is taking to maintain the
capabilities of UK defence manufacturing. [900008]
(Northampton South) (Con)
10. What steps his Department is taking to maintain the
capabilities of UK defence manufacturing. [900010]
Mrs (Basingstoke) (Con)
18. What steps his Department is taking to maintain the
capabilities of UK defence manufacturing. [900018]
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr )
To help sustain future capabilities we have published strategies
for shipbuilding and combat air and refreshed our defence
industrial policy with a new emphasis on supporting growth and
competitiveness, which are central to our procurement programmes,
including, for example, the Type 31 frigate and Tempest.
The UK has a world-beating defence industry that is dependent on
high-value design. How is the Department supporting the
Government’s “Engineering: Take a Closer Look” campaign to ensure
that people understand how vital engineering is to our defence
industry?
Mr Wallace
I congratulate my hon. Friend on being appointed engineering
envoy by the Government. Engineering is incredibly important,
which is why we support the “Engineering: Taker a Closer Look”
campaign, which will form part of that legacy and focus on STEM
youth engagement, targeting not only young people but the
gatekeepers, such teachers and parents. We are fully supportive
of the campaign objective, which is to increase consideration of
a career in engineering with a specific focus on 11 to
16-year-olds, especially among under-represented groups, such as
girls and black and minority ethnic groups.
What steps is the Department taking to ensure key industries
maintain sovereign capability?
Mr Wallace
To keep skills and innovation here the Government have been
determined to invest in home-grown innovation. It is the best way
to sustain UK capability in the long term. That is why the
defence and security accelerator, launched in 2016, is so
important, as is the defence innovation fund, under which £800
million will be spent in that sector over the next 10 years.
Mrs Miller
Thousands of people in north Hampshire contribute to the defence
of our country, and the ability of companies such as Fujitsu,
Harris and BAE Systems and their supply chains to recruit experts
from across the world to work with our domestic home-grown talent
is an essential part of our winning formula. How will the
Government ensure that that recruitment can continue after we
leave the EU?
Mr Wallace
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has been very clear about
the need for a points-based system to enable us to secure the
skills that we need, but, again, the long-term solution is
investment in our skills base. I was pleased about the increase
in further education funding that was announced in the recent
spending review, which will be important to ensuring that that
happens. In my constituency in Lancashire, investment in schools
and higher and further education colleges is the bedrock of BAE’s
capability.
Mr (North Durham) (Lab)
I know that the Secretary of State is reluctant to talk about the
fleet solid support ship contract, but may I ask him what
percentage of the bid is being taken into consideration in terms
of support for UK jobs and manufacturing? Will he really be
content to be the Secretary of State who is willing to export
jobs to Spain rather than investing in this country?
Mr Wallace
I think that the last part of the right hon. Gentleman’s question
anticipated the result of any competition that will take place,
and I am not going to comment on who or what is going to win if
we progress to that stage with competent bids. It will be
important for all the bids to include an element of UK
capability, and we will ensure that we take that into
consideration. It is important to us, and to the skills in this
country, for the customer—the MOD, which is spending all that
money—to secure not only an export market but a UK base.
(Stoke-on-Trent North)
(Lab)
Project Tempest is delivering and investing in a future fast jet
programme. However, given what we are hearing about the potential
closure of Brough, may I ask what conversations the Secretary of
State is having with BAE Systems about replacement training jets,
and what investment he is planning to make in some new Red
Arrows?
Mr Wallace
I shall have to write to the hon. Lady about the Red Arrows,
because I was not expecting that question, but the Tempest
project is an important signal to BAE Systems that the Government
are committed to another generation of fast jets. I shall be
meeting representatives of BAE soon, and I shall ensure that its
desire to be part of the programme is reflected in the locations
of its workforce around the country.
(Warley) (Lab)
The Secretary of State made a very significant statement from the
Dispatch Box a while ago when he said that companies should
invest where the skills are and where the customers are. That
only applies if the customers are prepared to use their buying
power to insist that the manufacturing takes place in the UK. Why
will the Secretary of State not change Government policy, even
before Brexit, and insist that the solid support vessels are
built in British yards? Make a decision, man!
Mr Wallace
The two aircraft carriers are built in British yards, the Type 26
is built in British yards, the Type 45 is built in British yards,
the offshore patrol Batch 2 is built in British yards, the Type
31 is currently built in British yards, and we will continue to
invest in our yards. The right hon. Gentleman will have heard the
hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North () ask how we could ensure that
BAE continued to invest in its workforce. It can continue to
invest in its workforce because it also manages to export around
the world When we export, we must recognise that we need an
international consortium, because we cannot sell purely to
ourselves; we have to export around the world.
Armed Forces: Capability and Strength
Mr (Wycombe) (Con)
9. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of the (a)
capabilities and (b) strength of the armed forces. [900009]
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr )
Our armed forces have suffered decades of being hollowed out to
meet short-term pressures. Eventually, that takes its toll on the
men and women of the armed forces and the equipment and
maintenance programme. The funds announced recently in the
spending review will allow us to reinvest and to maintain our
forces at their present levels. The adequacy of our capability is
of course defined by the extent of our ambitions, and by whether
we as a nation are willing to fund them.
Mr Baker
Will my right hon. Friend reassure me that nothing in the
European Union’s co-ordinated annual review of defence will
affect the capability or strength of our armed forces in the
short, medium or long term as we leave the EU?
Mr Wallace
My hon. Friend has raised some concerns about the engagement with
Europe, and, indeed, about Europe’s ambition. I think it
absolutely right that the European Commission has a strong
ambition for a single defence capability. We have made it clear
that we will only join any part of this European defence
arrangement voluntarily, and on condition that there is a
unilateral mechanism for exit. That is the key purpose. We will,
of course, work with international partners often to face
threats.
(West
Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
If the Secretary of State wants to assess the strength of the
armed forces, does he now agree that it is about time that they
had a trade union to stand up for ordinary members of the armed
forces against his puny Government?
Mr Wallace
Coming from a party that would reduce the armed forces to a
rubber boat in Scotland, I do not think we should take any
lectures from the hon. Gentleman and the SNP. It is absolutely
clear: the SNP is obsessed with trade union representation rather
than investing in armed forces.
Service Personnel Families: Pupil Premium
(Wakefield) (Lab)
11. What steps he is taking with the Secretary of State for
Education to ensure that armed forces personnel with children
eligible for the service pupil premium inform their child’s
school of that eligibility. [900011]
The Minister for Defence People and Veterans ()
I have already met the Schools Minister on this issue. We work
hard to get the message out there through payslips, posters and
an advertisement campaign. We can all, as MPs, play a role in
making sure the families of those who serve receive the benefits
they are entitled to.
There are over 400 serving armed forces personnel in the
Wakefield district, and they make a huge contribution to our
nation’s defence, but there are concerns from the Army Families
Federation that the service pupil premium is not being used
properly by schools to improve pastoral outcomes for service
children. What discussions has the Minister had with schools on
guidance?
I am very keen that the service pupil premium is used in the way
that it has been designed for—pastoral care and things like
that—and if the hon. Lady has evidence that that is not taking
place, I invite her to write to me and we can look into it.
Mr (Wantage) (Ind)
When the Minister next comes to visit the Royal Military College
in Shrivenham in my constituency, will he pop into Watchfield
primary school, where he will see a brilliant primary school that
educates children from all over the world—the children of those
of many nationalities who study at the military defence
college—and when he gets back will he ask the Secretary State why
the Ministry of Defence gives no financial help to this primary
school for the language teaching it has to do for those children?
I pay tribute to the school in question, which does a great job
of looking after the children of those who come and serve at
Shrivenham, and I am more than happy to look into the case my
right hon. Friend raises.
Commonwealth Veterans
(Midlothian) (Lab)
13. What recent discussions he has had with the Home Secretary on
the minimum income requirements for Commonwealth personnel and
veterans to bring family members to the UK. [900013]
(Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
15. What recent discussions he has had with the Home Secretary on
the minimum income requirements for Commonwealth personnel and
veterans to bring family members to the UK. [900015]
The Minister for Defence People and Veterans ()
All service personnel with non-EU citizen dependants are subject
to the minimum income requirement when applying for visas to
enter the UK. I recently met my hon. Friend the Member for South
Ribble (), the Immigration Minister at
the Home Office, to discuss the minimum income requirement for
visa fees. This is now being taken forward by officials from both
Departments, and I am very hopeful of a good outcome.
Penicuik in Midlothian is home to the Royal Highland Fusiliers at
Glencorse barracks, and the battalion has had a number of serving
Commonwealth soldiers, particularly from Fiji. Commonwealth
citizens have made significant contributions to the defence of
the UK throughout history, and continue to do so. I appreciate
the warm words from the Minister and that he has had
conversations, but is it not time that we repay their sacrifice
by scrapping the minimum income requirement so they can be
reunited with their families?
I pay tribute to those from Commonwealth countries for their
sacrifice and service over the years, which is exactly why we are
looking to recruit more people from those parts of the world. I
am in conversations with the Home Office to try and work out ways
to get over the minimum income requirement, and a lot of options
are being looked at—such as whether we work can with credit
unions or advertise on payslips—but I am more than happy to meet
with the hon. Lady.
Much like ordinary civilians, Commonwealth soldiers are being
unfairly treated by the Government under their hostile
environment policies. Is the Minister aware of the significant
difficulties that Commonwealth personnel have encountered in
bringing their families to the UK, and will he engage with me to
address these issues?
I will be delighted to engage with the hon. Gentleman, and I
would reiterate my point about the sacrifice and the service of
so many of our Commonwealth soldiers, who have contributed so
much to the armed forces in this country and who make them such a
diverse and incredible set of armed forces that do such a good
job on our behalf.
Leaving the EU: Defence Exports
(West Worcestershire)
(Con)
14. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for
International Trade on potential defence exports after the UK
leaves the EU. [900014]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence ()
Defence exports will continue to be supported, not just by the
Ministry of Defence but by other Government Departments including
the Department for International Trade, after the UK leaves the
EU. Work is ongoing to explore how to strengthen the
competitiveness of UK industry and to support exports, both to
the EU and globally. My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary
has regular conversations with the Secretary of State for
International Trade, including through the defence security and
exports working group.
I congratulate my hon. Friend on her appointment. I know that she
is a fervent champion of the tremendous exporters that we have in
the defence sector. She will know that they often face non-tariff
barriers when they export to the United States. Can she reassure
me that she will be championing their cause and ensuring that
those non-tariff barriers are broken down when we have a new
trade deal?
I thank my hon. Friend for her kind words. I reassure her that,
through our long-standing bilateral relationship with the US, we
work closely across the full spectrum of defence, including on
issues of shared economic interests such as reducing barriers.
Free trade agreements are not used as a means of increasing
defence exports. For non-sensitive and non-warlike defence goods
and services, the UK may pursue greater access to US public
procurement opportunities through the free trade agreement.
(Plymouth, Sutton and
Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
The 13 old nuclear submarines tied up alongside Devonport provide
a really important case not only for generating jobs in Devonport
but for exporting skills and technology around the world. Will
the Minister put forward a strategy for how we are going to
recycle those old nuclear submarines within the next year?
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his optimism that anything so big
as that project could be done in a year, but I will certainly
take up the challenge. I have been described by some in the
Department as a poacher turned gamekeeper on this particular
subject, especially as I have made it a priority to move this
forward. I saw the work being done on the Resolution project up
in Rosyth a couple of weeks ago, and I have been encouraged by
the progress being made there. We are starting to see a
structured framework that will enable us to move this project
forward and move our way right through our elderly submarines
that are now in need of retirement.
Topical Questions
(Chelmsford) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental
responsibilities. [900025]
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr )
In the light of recent events at the Syrian border, the
Government urge all parties to ensure that they comply with
international law, including international humanitarian law and
obligations on human rights. We urge a swift de-escalation of the
conflict by all parties.
I note that changes were made last week to the political
declaration on the future relationship between the EU and the UK.
Can my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State confirm that no
member of the British armed forces would ever be obliged to serve
alongside any EU army without Ministers’ support?
Mr Wallace
My hon. Friend makes the key point when she suggests that this
could not happen without Ministers’ support, or indeed without
the intention of this Government to voluntarily join an EU
taskforce, a NATO task force or any other type of international
task force. I can absolutely reassure her that we will not enter
into any of these European schemes without doing so voluntarily
and without a unilateral exit.
(Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
(Lab)
As we approach Remembrance weekend and the launch of the Royal
British Legion’s poppy campaign, we remember all those who have
given their lives for our country and of course all the veterans
who have served. Many veterans have accessed the veterans gateway
for help and support, but there is significant concern that the
funding for the gateway is not guaranteed. Will the Minister
address that concern today and guarantee the necessary funding to
enable the veterans gateway to continue its good work?
The Minister for Defence People and Veterans ()
The veterans gateway received an initial period of funding, and
it is supported by a consortium of charities. It has been a
success in helping veterans access help in this country, and a
long-term plan is being devised for it at the moment. I would be
more than happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss that in due
course.
(Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale
and Tweeddale) (Con)
T2. Will the relevant Minister meet me as a matter of urgency to
discuss the interminable delay in agreeing a lease for the
Eastriggs site of MOD Longtown? This delay is causing a threat to
important investment and job creation in my constituency.
[900026]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence ()
I welcome the opportunity to meet my right hon. Friend to discuss
the Eastriggs site in his constituency. I am aware of the
aspiration of Rail Sidings Ltd to develop its railway rolling
stock storage business at MOD Eastriggs. Defence Medical Services
continues to manage the site and may support initiatives to
commercially exploit the rail infrastructure, provided that any
increase in use does not conflict with the primary demands of
defence.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
Will the Secretary of State commit to publishing his Department’s
analysis of leaving the European Union as far as forfeiting our
rights and responsibilities under article 42.7 of the Lisbon
treaty is concerned?
Mr Wallace
I will be delighted to write to the hon. Gentleman.
(Tonbridge and Malling)
(Con)
T3. Given the surprise at the speed with which the Americans fled
from the scene in Syria, what preparations are Ministers making
for greater logistical independence for Her Majesty’s armed
forces so that they do not feel abandoned? [900027]
The Minister for the Armed Forces ()
The UK remains fully committed to the long-term security of the
region and to the counter-Daesh coalition. We continually assess
UK and coalition logistical capability to ensure that we are well
placed to continue to contribute to the counter-Daesh effort, and
we remain at the forefront of the coalition’s air campaign.
(Darlington) (Lab)
T6. It is just not possible to recognise the sacrifice and
service of our armed forces in pay alone, but it is wrong that
the salary of a new recruit is now worth over £1,000 a year less
than it was 10 years ago. What is the Minister going to do? When
will a new recruit’s pay match what it was 10 years ago in real
terms? [900030]
I am delighted to say that my understanding is that, as a result
of the recent pay review, the starting salary of a private
soldier has risen to over £20,000 a year.
(Lewes) (Con)
T4. What steps are being taken to protect veterans who served in
Northern Ireland? [900028]
The issue of protecting our servicemen and women from vexatious
and repeated prosecution in Northern Ireland is something that
the Government take incredibly seriously. Regular meetings are
now ongoing between me, the Attorney General, the Secretary of
State for Defence and the Secretary of State for Northern
Ireland. We are absolutely committed to the Prime Minister’s
determination that there will be no vexatious or repeated
allegations and prosecutions without new evidence, and we will
achieve that objective.
(Kensington) (Lab)
T10. We heard earlier about Capita’s failures in Army recruitment
and Carillion’s failures in Army accommodation. Is it not time to
review the costly procurement process, under which the Government
just last month signed a £1.6 billion contract to decommission
Sellafield with Morgan Sindall Group, which was responsible for
the Faslane leisure centre super-mess? [900034]
Sadly, I cannot speak about the procurement of other Departments,
but I can reassure the hon. Lady that, in my new role, I take how
we do procurement, who we do it with, and how contracts are
managed extremely seriously.
(Cheadle) (Con)
T5. In London, some veterans are eligible for free travel under
the veterans concessionary travel scheme, but Greater
Manchester’s veterans do not have the benefit of year-round free
travel on public transport. Transport is a devolved matter, and
our veterans should be afforded gold-standard treatment on our
transport network after years of service. What discussions has
the Minister had with the Mayor of Greater Manchester? [900029]
I have not had any discussions with the Mayor on this issue.
Transport is devolved to the Greater Manchester, so it is a
matter to be decided upon locally. However, as a supporter of the
armed forces covenant, Transport for Greater Manchester provides
free travel on Metrolink for veterans on important days, such as
Remembrance Sunday. I am of course happy to meet the Mayor to
discuss the matter further.
(Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
I recently met some veterans of the far east campaigns of the
1950s, and they impressed upon me the gross unfairness of the
pension situation for some of them who served for 15 years. Will
the Government change the rule that means that people who served
before 1975 must have served for 22 years to get a full pension?
In respect of pensions for those who served pre-1975, there is a
long-standing convention for which responsibility lies with the
Treasury. We simply do not have the resources to backdate
pensions, as has always been the case with pensions across the
public sector.
(Walsall North) (Con)
T7. The recent attack on a Saudi oil facility was carried out
using small pilotless drones capable of flying hundreds of miles.
Will the Minister tell the House what defence the UK has against
similar attacks? [900031]
The Home Office has responsibility for counter-drone activity
within the United Kingdom. The MOD has a layered air defence
capability, and we are happy to allow other Departments to use
that capability when they specifically request it.
(Kingston upon Hull West and
Hessle) (Lab)
Ministers will be aware that Hawk manufacturing at Brough is due
to end in 2020 after more than 100 years of aircraft manufacture.
I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member
for Berwick-upon-Tweed (), for agreeing to meet
me on Wednesday, but ahead of that meeting will she please
consider all suitable BAE MOD contracts and what pressure can be
put on BAE to ensure that some of them are manufactured in
Brough?
Mr Wallace
I have regularly met the unions from Brough over the years, and
not only because I represent a site in Lancashire that also
employs BAE workers. The key is for us to support BAE to get more
export bids and, at the same time, to prepare for the next
generation of fighter. With that, we will make sure that with our
money and with taxpayers’ money comes a commitment from BAE that
the jobs are as much based here, throughout the country, as they
have always been.
Mr (Scarborough and Whitby)
(Con)
T8. My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford () mentioned cadets in the
community, but the cadet expansion programme is about
establishing 500 new cadet units in state schools. What
assessment has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made
of the value of cadet units to some of our most disadvantaged
children in some of our most challenging schools? [900032]
The University of Northampton’s research into the social impact
of cadet forces, including those in state schools, suggests that
membership can increase social mobility and help children reach
their potential because of the activities they undertake. That is
precisely why this has been such a successful process.
(Glasgow North West)
(SNP)
The Secretary of State will be aware of reports of the use of
white phosphorus by Turkey in northern Syria. What is he doing to
assist NATO allies with the investigation into this?
Mr Wallace
The hon. Lady is right that white phosphorus is permitted only
for use in signals and markers; it is not allowed, under the
Geneva convention, to be used as a weapon. A number of people are
collecting evidence about that and many other incidents. When
that evidence is presented either to me, to the Organisation for
the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons or to the UN, we will
consider together what the next step should be.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Finally, because he must not miss out, I call .
Mr (North East Hampshire)
(Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome what the Minister has just said
and what the Prime Minister has said repeatedly—in March, in July
and last week—that we must not let politics trump justice. I
trust that legislation is coming to stop vexatious prosecutions,
but when?
The Department has completed a consultation—it closed only last
week—brought forward by the previous Secretary of State on
enhanced legal protections. We are now collating the responses
and look forward to introducing a Bill early in the new year.
