12.44 pm
Ms (Hackney North and Stoke
Newington) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
Office if he will make a statement on the National Audit Office’s
report, “Financial sustainability of police forces in England and
Wales 2018”.
The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)
I thank the right hon. Lady for her question. The NAO does
incredibly important work and the Government are very grateful to
it for its work on police financial sustainability. As my right
hon. Friend the Home Secretary made extremely clear to police
superintendents yesterday, we absolutely understand and agree
that the police are under pressure, and we are absolutely
determined to support them.
I do not recognise the suggestion, however, that Ministers do not
understand the pressures on the police. Last year, I spoke
personally to all 43 police forces in England and Wales,
including frontline officers. I also commissioned analysis to
improve our understanding of police demand and resilience, and I
explained our findings to the House last year, at the time of the
provisional police funding settlement. We recognise the pressures
on the police, including from complex crime and the threat of
terrorism, and we have provided a funding settlement that is
increasing total investment in the police system by more than
£460 million in the current financial year. This includes £50
million of additional funding for counter-terrorism, £130 million
for national priorities and £280 million in force funding from
increases in precept income.
We are not stopping there. I have already indicated that we will
afford the police the same precept flexibility in 2019-20 subject
to their meeting productivity and efficiency asks. We are also
working very closely with the police to jointly build the
evidence base on police demand, resilience and capability ahead
of the spending review.
The report is, then, valuable in highlighting the pressure on the
police, but we do not believe that it gives adequate weight to a
number of important issues: first, the strength of the local
accountability structure through police and crime commissioners,
which were introduced by this Government; secondly, our support
to the independent inspectorate in developing force management
statements—a key tool in getting better data to identify and
manage future demand; thirdly, our public and regular monitoring
of service effectiveness through Her Majesty’s inspectorate of
constabulary and fire and rescue services, whose independent
authority we have strengthened; and fourthly, our request to the
police that they reform themselves, meaning it is appropriate
that the police have their own strategy, which they do, in
“Police Vision 2025”.
Having said that, we of course take the report extremely
seriously, and our permanent secretary has written to the NAO to
accept these points. The House should be under no illusion,
however: the Government remain extremely committed to ensuring
that forces have the resources they need to do the extremely
difficult work that they do on behalf of all of us, and which the
whole House appreciates.
Ms Abbott
The House appreciates that the Minister has met the leaders of
all the police forces, but it is difficult to avoid the
conclusion that this National Audit Office report is an
indictment of successive Conservative Home Secretaries and their
handling of police financial sustainability.
Does the Minister now accept what the NAO sets out—that total
funding to police forces, which is a combination of central
Government funding and council tax, has fallen by 19% in real
terms since 2010-11? Does the Minister accept what the NAO
further sets out—that the
“main way that police forces have managed financial pressure is
by reducing the size of their workforces?”
It says that the total workforce across forces fell by 18%
between 2010 and March 2018. Does the Minister accept the NAO
conclusion that, although crime recorded by the crime survey for
England and Wales decreased by 36% between 2011 and 2018, at the
same time police forces faced an upsurge in the reporting of low
volume and high harm crime—the crimes that alarm the public most?
Most damning of all, the National Audit Office says it has found
early indicators that the police are “struggling”—that is the
NAO’s word—to deliver an effective service. Is the Minister aware
of the NAO’s conclusion that the Home Office simply does not have
a clear picture of what individual forces need to meet local and
national demands? Why is that, and what are Ministers going to do
about it? Yesterday Commissioner Cressida Dick, the head of the
Met police, said that she did not want the Government to wait
until the police were struggling like the Prison Service. Can the
Minister give the House an assurance that that will not happen?
Mr Hurd
First, I should make it clear that I did not speak just to police
leaders. Whenever I visit a force I make a point of speaking to
frontline officers, and through those conversations I gained a
very clear picture of the stretch and pressure that they are
experiencing.
The right hon. Lady asked me to confirm that police budgets had
been reduced since 2010, and asked whether we had fewer police
officers. The numbers do not lie: the numbers are very clear.
They are hardly news. What the right hon. Lady omitted to
mention, of course, was the underlying driver of the decisions
that were made in 2010. The state of the public finances that we
inherited from the previous Government led to the radical action
that was needed.
(Torfaen) (Lab)
That is desperate.
Mr Hurd
It is not desperate. Those are the stark economic facts that the
coalition Government faced in 2010. There was a need to take
radical action to return the public finances to some sort of
order. That is an uncomfortable truth about which the Labour
party remains in denial.
Rubbish.
Mr Hurd
It is not rubbish. [Hon. Members: “Yes, it is.”] The state of the
public finances is a matter of absolute record.
I welcome the right hon. Lady’s recognition that traditional
crime continues to decrease. Of course we are all concerned about
the clear increase in serious violent crime, and we have faced up
to it in clear statements of our determination to get on top of
it, not just with words but with actions through the Serious
Violence Strategy, which has been welcomed by the police and
which is supported by funding.
The right hon. Lady said that forces were struggling to manage
demand. It is absolutely true that some of them are, but we do
not need the National Audit Office to tell us that; the HMIC
reports on effectiveness make the point very plainly. We are
working with those forces. We should reject any groupthink that
suggests that this is just an issue of financial resources,
although they are clearly important. Police leaders recognise
that there is considerable scope for improvement in the way in
which police time and demand are managed. HMIC has made that
point very clearly, and has taken an initiative that we support
in requiring force management statements in which police forces
must explain their view of future demand and how they intend to
manage it.
The right hon. Lady asked what the Government were going to do. I
will tell her exactly what we are doing, and exactly what the
Home Secretary said yesterday to the police superintendents. We
will continue to support the police, and we have put more money
into the police system. The Home Secretary has made it very clear
that police funding is a priority for him, and we are working
closely with the police in preparing for the comprehensive
spending review. There needs to be a strong evidence base in
respect of demand and resilience, and it is exactly that work
that we are putting together. The Government attach the highest
priority to public safety, and to ensuring that our police system
has the support that it needs.
(Ashford) (Con)
The Minister is right to mention the vital role that police and
crime commissioners play in budgeting and spending. A good and
effective police and crime commissioner such as ours in Kent,
—who can husband resources
well enough to ensure that over the coming year Kent people will
be blessed with up to 200 more police officers—can work well
within a budget, and can provide the extra safety in our streets
that people demand.
Mr Hurd
My right hon. Friend has made an important point. We introduced
police and crime commissioners, and is an outstanding example of
the difference that they make, both through local accountability
and through stewardship of police budgets. I am delighted, not
least for the people of Kent, that as a result of the measures
that we have taken—and we could only do so because of the
improvements in the economy—more money is going into Kent
policing, which Matthew is using to recruit more officers. I am
sure that that is very welcome throughout Kent.
Sir (Kingston and Surbiton)
(LD)
England’s most senior police officer, Cressida Dick, said
yesterday that the police were now
“taking up the slack of other public services that are struggling
to deliver.”
Will the Home Secretary, ahead of the Budget, argue for not just
more cash for the police but extra cash for the NHS so that it
can collaborate with them, especially when it comes to people
with mental health issues?
Mr Hurd
The right hon. Gentleman has raised an extremely important point.
One of the clear messages that I received during my tour of the
police system was about the frustration caused by the amount of
time that officers spend—in their words—doing other people’s
jobs, away from core policing work, and a large part of that
frustration relates to the amount of time spent supporting people
with mental health issues. We are doing a piece of work on this,
because evidence must support the initiatives that we take. We
need to understand the problem, and think about how we can make
local collaboration work more effectively so that time can be
freed up to allow police officers to do what the public expect,
and focus on core policing.
(Shipley) (Con)
Policing should always be a spending priority for a Conservative
Government. I have voted against cuts in police grants every year
since their introduction in 2010. Our police are overstretched,
and that is of increasing concern to many of our constituents. Is
it not time that the Government broke the habit of a lifetime and
did something popular? [Laughter.] Is it not time that they
scrapped some of the huge, ridiculous sums that are going into
the overseas aid budget, and passed them to our hard-pressed
police forces? That would be popular with our local communities.
Does the Minister agree that calls for increases in the police
budget—which I consistently make—are not helped by morons such as
the police and crime commissioner in South Yorkshire, who seems
to think that his force has so much money that it can now start
asking people to report non-crimes as well as crimes?
Mr Hurd
My hon. Friend is a great and long-standing champion of the
police, and I have great respect for that. However, he should
know—because he is good at numbers—that this year the Government
are spending, on behalf of the public and the taxpayer, more than
£1 billion more on our police system than we were three years
ago. I hope he welcomes that, because, as he fully recognises,
the police system is stretched, and it is our responsibility to
ensure that it has the resources that it needs.
(Delyn) (Lab)
The most expensive way to fund policing is through the mechanism
of overtime, which is now at its highest-ever level. Would it not
be sensible for the Government, rather than allowing hard-working
police officers to work longer hours and cost the taxpayer more,
to revisit the issue of police funding and revert to the figures
that obtained in 2009-10, when Labour was in office?
Mr Hurd
Like most Labour Members, the right hon. Gentleman remains in
complete denial of economic reality and the adjustments that have
been needed since 2010 to put our public finances back in order.
As I have said very publicly for at least a year, I accept the
argument that the police system needs more resources, and that is
exactly what we have delivered. This year, as a country, we have
put an additional £460 million into the system, over £1 billion
more than three years ago. However, it is not just about
resources—as a former Minister, the right hon. Gentleman knows
that—but about more efficient and effective use of police time.
(Taunton Deane) (Con)
I pay tribute to the hard-working police force of Avon and
Somerset, which is making changes in its operating system. I was
in touch with the force recently because it has altered its
inquiry opening hours, but that is because it is having to adapt
to changing demands. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is
right to adapt to such changes, and will he reassure me that he
remains committed to working closely with the police on funding
following the delivery of a £460 million increase in the overall
police budget for 2018-19?
Mr Hurd
I do agree, and that £460 million includes an additional £8
million for Avon and Somerset, which I know my hon. Friend will
welcome. She is entirely right: Avon and Somerset is a superb
example of a force that has adapted and innovated. I consider it
to be best in class in respect of its smart use of data to manage
demand, which means that it has some of the best response time
statistics in the system. It provides an example to the rest of
the system of how demand can be managed better through a more
intelligent use of data, and I congratulate it on that.
(Hackney South and Shoreditch)
(Lab/Co-op)
The former permanent secretary at the Home Office has
acknowledged that the funding formula for policing is
ineffective. However, as there has been a delay, it now looks
like we will be waiting until the spending review before the new
formula is agreed and comes into force. On my calculation that
means it will not come into force or make a difference until
2020-21. Can the Minister give us any comfort on that and explain
when the funding formula will be properly revisited?
Mr Hurd
I say to the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, as I have
said publicly, that the appropriate point to address this
issue—which is very sensitive and which a number of forces and
MPs representing forces feel very strongly about—is in the
context of the CSR, which is the most important framework for
long-term financial planning in the police. I will be very frank:
my priority, working with the Home Secretary, is to make an
argument to set the size of the total cake. We have made it clear
that we will then need to deliver a compelling analysis and plan
for how that cake gets divided up in a way that more fairly
reflects the demands on the current policing system, which are
evolving. We are very serious about that, but we just happen to
think that the CSR is the most appropriate framework in which to
do this work.
Sir (New Forest West) (Con)
In God’s own town of Lymington a robber was captured but had to
be released because there was no police officer available to be
sent. We do need more police officers, don’t we?
Mr Hurd
We do; I agree and totally accept the argument that we need more
resources for the police, which is exactly what we have
delivered. That includes an additional £9.7 million for Hampshire
police, whom I meet regularly. Across the country forces are
using that money to recruit additional officers: 500 more here in
London, 200-odd in Kent, 150-odd in Essex, 150-odd in Nottingham,
100 in West Mercia. Across the country police forces are using
the additional resources we are able to deliver, as a result of
our successful stewardship of the economy since 2010, to deliver
what the public want, which is more policing. We would not be
able to do that under the Labour party’s policies.
(Birmingham, Erdington)
(Lab)
With 2,000 police officers cut in the West Midlands, crime is
soaring, violent crime by 59%. Communities increasingly live in
fear, as Ministers are in denial as to the consequences of their
actions. Does the Minister not accept that the first duty of any
Government is the safety and security of their citizens, and that
it is absolutely wrong that under the existing formula the West
Midlands cut is in excess of twice that of Surrey?
Mr Hurd
The hon. Gentleman and I have had many exchanges over the year
about West Midlands Police and I hope he welcomes—although he
voted against it—the funding settlement that will see an
additional £9.9 million go into West Midlands policing. David
Thompson, the chief, has made many representations to me about
fair funding and I refer the hon. Gentleman to my earlier
remarks: substantive work needs to be done around fairer funding
of the police system and the CSR is the right place to do that.
(North Herefordshire)
(Con)
My right hon. Friend has already mentioned the 100 new police
officers for West Mercia that , our excellent police
and crime commissioner, is about to recruit. I would like to see
these new officers fighting rural crime, so will my right hon.
Friend look again at road traffic offences, especially speeding?
Speed awareness courses help the safety of all of us on the
roads, but they can only happen once every three years. May we
have them on an annual basis, please?
Mr Hurd
I join my hon. Friend in welcoming the initiative of West
Mercia’s police and crime commissioner to use the additional £4.6
million made available to him to recruit additional officers. I
wholly understand the weight my hon. Friend attaches to rural
crime, as I have heard that very clearly from other Members
representing rural constituencies. It is obviously for the local
PCC in his local plan to establish his local priorities, but I
will take my hon. Friend’s point about road traffic away and come
back to him.
(Battersea) (Lab)
Opposition Members all know the impact of this Government’s cuts
on police officers—they are having an impact locally—but we also
all acknowledge the hard work they are doing. Does the Minister
agree with Cressida Dick that the pay award offered was like a
“punch on the nose”?
Mr Hurd
I wholly agree about the hard work police officers
do—[Interruption.] They are extremely stretched, and I will go
further: I completely understand, as does the Home Secretary, as
he said yesterday at the police superintendents’ conference, why
police officers feel extremely disappointed by the Government’s
decision. The reality is that, as the Home Secretary said
yesterday, the Government have to balance fairness and
affordability. We continue to operate in a very constrained
environment in terms of the public finances as a direct
consequence of the actions of the last Labour Government, and we
are still navigating our way through those difficulties. The
Government took a collective decision based on fairness and
affordability and looking at public pay in the round. We
completely recognise that police officers are disappointed by
that, and our priority going forward is to make the argument to
the Treasury about the resources the police need in the future.
(Wells) (Con)
Tomorrow evening there will be a public meeting in Glastonbury at
which residents from across the community will air their concerns
about antisocial behaviour in the town. Avon and Somerset police
hitherto have been limited in the way they have been able to
respond to that because of the challenges of delivering policing
across a large rural county such as Somerset. Will the Minister
of State ensure that, in all future decisions on police funding,
the cost of rurality is factored in and that rural areas are
therefore well provided for?
Mr Hurd
I thank my hon. Friend for that insight. I completely understand
this point as I have had many representations from Members
representing rural forces making exactly that point. In our work
planning for the CSR and the application of a fairer funding
formula, that is one of the factors that we take fully into
account.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
The appalling murder of Nicholas Churton last year in my
constituency highlighted deficiencies in both policing and the
probation service; at Prime Minister’s questions today we heard
about deficiencies in Wolverhampton, too. There is a widespread
increase in violent crime, which is having a direct impact on the
lives of our constituents. Will the Minister ensure that that
message is conveyed to the whole Government so that when he
secures funding in the CSR priority is given to policing, which
is a massive issue in our constituencies up and down the land?
Mr Hurd
I understand exactly the point the hon. Gentleman makes and I
hope he can take some assurance—they are words at this stage; I
fully accept that—from the statements by the Home Secretary about
the personal priority he attaches to police funding; he states it
is clearly his priority. The hon. Gentleman mentions serious
violent crime. I think the whole House is united in a
determination to bear down on that horrific problem. He talks
about policing being at the core of this. He is right, but what
is required is a cross-Government response because this is not
just about robust law enforcement, although that is essential; it
is also about much more effective work on prevention and early
intervention, which requires other Departments and the whole
system at national and local levels to work more effectively to
steer young people away from crime and violence and the
devastating consequences it has for them, their families, friends
and communities.
Mr (Hazel Grove) (Con)
It is pointless having an independent pay panel if its findings
are ignored. This summer, I had the pleasure of spending a day
with Greater Manchester police in their give a day to policing
scheme, as I know many other Members did. Will my right hon.
Friend take back the firm message to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to bring forward additional resources for policing in
the autumn Budget?
Mr Hurd
I understand the point my hon. Friend makes about the police
remuneration board. It is hard not to. I have made very
clear—more importantly the Home Secretary has made very clear—the
personal priority we attach to police funding. We recognise, in a
way the NAO report underestimates, and understand the pressures
on the police system. Demand on the police is rising. Crime is
changing and becoming more complex. We must respond because
public safety is the No. 1 priority of any Government.
(Ipswich) (Lab)
My local police force, Suffolk constabulary, is the third lowest
funded police force in England per head of population. About 300
officers have been lost in the last eight years, which is a large
proportion for a small force, and about a third of support staff
have also been lost. Violent crime, and especially drug-related
violent crime, in my constituency of Ipswich has mushroomed and
we have seen multiple gang stabbings in the last year. Can the
Minister see that there is a connection and will he speak to the
Chancellor to secure the funds that the service he is responsible
for needs?
Mr Hurd
The hon. Gentleman and I have had a number of exchanges over the
last year about Suffolk policing, and I have had many
conversations with the Suffolk PCC, which reinforces the point
that we feel the NAO report attaches insufficient weight to the
local accountability mechanisms that we have in place. There are
very few PCCs who have not made representations to me about the
pressure on their system and the argument for more resources or
fairer allocation of resources, and the Suffolk PCC would be
pre-eminent in that. I have made it clear, and the Home Secretary
has made it clear, that we are determined and—more than
words—that the Home Office, in a way we have never done before,
is working closely with the police to build the evidence base
that is going to be needed in a very competitive CSR to ensure
that our police system has the resources it needs, because public
safety is the No. 1 priority of any Government.
Dr (Sleaford and North
Hykeham) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is aware of the excellent work being done by
Lincolnshire police to keep us safe. I regularly meet our
excellent police and crime commissioner, , to discuss the challenges
involved in policing such a large rural area. Lincolnshire police
have 5,500 miles of road and 2,500 square miles to police. What
more can the Minister do to ensure that our dedicated police
force has the funds it needs to police this rural area?
Mr Hurd
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and to all those who have been
absolutely assiduous in making representations on behalf of
Lincolnshire police, which is a stretched force that is facing
financial challenges. has also been assiduous as a
PCC in making these points, and we have worked closely with him
to understand the pressures on that police force. It has received
an additional £3.3 million this year, which I hope my hon. Friend
welcomes. It has also been the recipient of some special grants
through the special grant programme. We will work closely with
Marc and other PCCs to make the case in the next CSR for
increased resources for our police system, which I hope
Lincolnshire will benefit from. I would add that Lincolnshire is
another example of a force that has worked superbly to adapt and
harness technology to make more productive use of police time. It
is a leader in the use of mobile working technology and I
congratulate it on that.
(Bristol South) (Lab)
The Minister talks a lot about seeking evidence, and he has
rightly praised Avon and Somerset police for their data and for
being best in class, but I am afraid that those words will not
serve my constituents properly by protecting them from crime.
When will we be getting the money to meet the demand that we have
evidenced?
Mr Hurd
The hon. Lady ignores the fact that Avon and Somerset is
receiving an additional £8 million this year in the settlement
that I think she voted against. I have made it clear that, for
2019-20, we expect to do something similar, and I have also made
it clear that, as a ministerial team led by the Home Secretary,
we are doing a great deal of work to develop the evidence base
and to make the argument about the resources that the police need
for the next five years. That includes Avon and Somerset, which
does outstanding work on behalf of its residents, not least, as
we have agreed, in terms of best practice in demand management.
(South West Bedfordshire)
(Con)
I know that the Minister cares deeply about these issues. The
Chair of the Public Accounts Committee is right when she draws
attention to the unfairness of the formula, which has been unfair
since damping was brought in in 2004. Four hundred people turned
up to a meeting with the police in my constituency just a couple
of weeks ago. That should give my right hon. Friend an indication
of the level of concern about this issue. We in Bedfordshire
cannot wait until the next comprehensive spending review. Because
of the unfairness in funding, we do not get what the national
formula says we should get, and we have not done so since 2004.
That needs action now.
Mr Hurd
I congratulate my hon. Friend on being absolutely assiduous in
making representations to me about Bedfordshire policing, about
which I know he cares deeply. His passion is shared by , the police and crime
commissioner, who is in regular contact with me about these
matters. He knows that Bedfordshire has had another £3.2 million
this year, and I am sure he knows that the force has put in
applications to the special grant programme. He will also know
that the long-term solution is through the CSR and the
application of a fairer funding formula. He knows from the
conversations that we have had that I am personally absolutely
committed to this, but I undertake to work closely with him, the
PCC and Bedfordshire police over the next two years as they work
through the challenges that they face. I completely understand
the concern that he has expressed so well on behalf of his
constituents.
(Stretford and Urmston)
(Lab)
Over the summer, I spent a day with officers at Stretford police
station, and I have to tell the Minister that I was quite shocked
when I saw the extent of the pressure they are under. This is
arising in part because of new demands on the police, including
those relating to radical extremism, to child criminal
exploitation and to additional requirements relating to
disclosure. Will the Minister ensure not only that the police are
funded adequately to meet their current needs but that there is a
real understanding of these new and growing pressures?
Mr Hurd
As ever, the hon. Lady makes an extremely good point. She is
absolutely right, and the shadow Home Secretary also understands
that demand on the police is changing. Traditional crime rates
continue to fall, but demand on the system is coming from new and
increasingly complex resource-intensive areas. We understand
that, and we have responded to it, but there is more that we need
to do in terms of ensuring that the police have the support that
they need. We completely get that.
(Torbay) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment to ensuring that the
police have the powers they need. We had the Counter-Terrorism
and Border Security Bill on the Floor of the House yesterday, and
the Offensive Weapons Bill will soon come to the House for our
consideration. Can he reassure me and my constituents that he
understands the pressures being faced by the police, not least
those being caused by the use of drugs such as Spice?
Mr Hurd
My hon. Friend has been assiduous in registering his concerns to
the House and the Government about the effect of Spice, which I
have seen for myself. We have had exchanges on that point, and
those concerns are shared by many colleagues. I also thank him
for making the point about police powers. For reasons that we all
understand, conversations about the police tend to focus on
resources and money, but in terms of what the Government can do
to support the police, it is not just about money. It is also
about new powers such as those in the Offensive Weapons Bill that
is going through the House. We are constantly reviewing how we
can support the police with the powers they need to counter the
changing demands on the system, and how we can work with them to
anticipate demand. The one thing we do know about the policing
environment at the moment is that it is one of constant change,
and we need to work closely with the police to ensure that they
are fit for purpose in terms of managing existing demand and
getting on top of future demand.
(Ceredigion) (PC)
Further to the answer that the Minister gave to the hon. Member
for Wells (James Heappey), and acknowledging the need for the
funding formula to appreciate the specific needs that rurality
creates for forces such as Dyfed-Powys, will the Minister also
consider in any forthcoming review the fact that the population
in many rural areas increases significantly during the summer
months and as such places additional pressures on the local
force?
Mr Hurd
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. It is a prime
responsibility of the Government to look at how these limited,
stretched public resources, which come from the taxpayer, are
raised and spent, and it is obviously one of our responsibilities
to ensure that decisions are taken that fully reflect and
understand the shifts and changes in society and in how this
country works. That is our responsibility, and it is a serious
bit of work, which is why I think that it is best done in the
context of the CSR.
(Boston and Skegness)
(Con)
I am grateful to the Minister for the engagement that he has
shown with Lincolnshire police and for the praise that he has
given to the force for doing more with less, but does he agree
that, however big the funding cake is for the police,
Lincolnshire deserves a larger slice of it?
Mr Hurd
I have received assiduous representations on that point from
Lincolnshire MPs, the chief constable and the police and crime
commissioner. Some work has been done on fair funding and more
work needs to be done. I recognise that the Lincolnshire police
force is stretched and challenged. We have done what we can to
help in the short term. I give my commitment that I will continue
to do what I can there, if that is what the evidence shows, but
in the context of the CSR, which is the most important event in
terms of framing the future of police funding for the next five
years, I undertake that we will look again at the fair funding.
(Bedford) (Lab)
The chief constable of Bedfordshire, Jon Boutcher, told me this
morning that in his 35 years as a police officer he had never
seen such a high demand on his force, yet he has to deal with
this with fewer police officers than he had in 2010 and a £47
million budget cut. He simply cannot find enough officers to
attend all the 999 calls. Our police force is at breaking point.
When will the Minister’s Government admit that their funding
formula is broken, understand what forces such as Bedfordshire
are dealing with and give them the funding they need to protect
the public?
Mr Hurd
I am in regular contact with Bedfordshire’s chief constable and
the police and crime commissioner. I am extremely aware of their
concerns, and we are doing more than listening. We have put an
additional £3.2 million into Bedfordshire policing this year, and
I have already signalled that we intend again to give PCCs
flexibility over precepts in 2019-20. We are engaging with
Bedfordshire about applications to the special grant pot, which
we increased in the funding settlement that the hon. Gentleman
voted against. We are serious about the work that needs to be
done for the CSR, both in terms of increasing the resources
available to the police and the fair allocation of the cake once
it has been established.
(Amber Valley) (Con)
The Minister will know that Derbyshire’s police are particularly
unfairly treated by the formula, but the force has a practical
suggestion relating to the amount of policing it does involving
Black Mamba that it says will help it to manage its scarce
resources. The force says that it would greatly help if the drug
could be reclassified to class A to provide a far better
sentencing deterrent to the use of that drug. Is that something
that the Minister could do quickly to help forces to manage the
issue?
Mr Hurd
I thank Derbyshire for its pragmatic, constructive approach to
some of the challenges we face. My hon. Friend will know, not
least from sitting next to my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay
(Kevin Foster), that the Government keep the classification of
Spice and other synthetic drugs under regular review. We rely on
advice from the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, and its
position is unchanged, but we are extremely aware of the public
concern, and I expect that that advice will be kept under regular
scrutiny and refreshment.
(Kingston upon Hull North)
(Lab)
May I pay tribute to the bravery of the police officers in
Humberside who ran towards a serious incident in Hull city centre
yesterday? Despite the best efforts of our excellent police and
crime commissioner, , to refocus resources to the
frontline, we still have fewer officers than in 2010. We have
lost equipment, including the force’s helicopter, and powers for
police officers on antisocial behaviour were weakened under the
coalition Government. With rising levels of crime—antisocial
behaviour is rising in particular in my constituency—what is the
Minister going to do about that?
Mr Hurd
The hon. Lady talks about financial resources. I have already
taken steps that have led to an additional £4 million of public
money going into Humberside policing. I hope that she will
welcome that, although she voted against it, and we intend to do
something similar this year. We will work closely with the
police, including Humberside, to make the case for additional
investment in policing.
The hon. Lady and other Labour MPs continue to talk about the
cuts since 2010, but they are in complete denial of the economic
reality. The budget reductions were taken for two good reasons.
First, we had to take radical action to control the deficit that
we inherited from a Government that she sometimes supported.
Secondly, everyone agreed at the time that demand on the police
was flat. Even the shadow Home Secretary at the time agreed that
the police could deliver efficiencies, which is exactly what they
have done. However, demand has changed since 2014 and we have to
respond to that.
(Walsall North) (Con)
I will continue to lobby for more funds for West Midlands police,
but this is not just about cash. Will the Minister confirm that
police forces led by Conservative police and crime commissioners
perform better across all measures, according to a report by Her
Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary?
Mr Hurd
I would be delighted to accept that analysis, and I totally
recognise the work that my hon. Friend does to champion West
Midlands police, which is an incredibly important police force
that does extremely good work. We have put additional resources
into the force, and I note that the Labour police and crime
commissioner has managed to go about increasing reserves by £26.9
million since 2011—the period in which he has complained about
being cash starved.
(Heywood and Middleton)
(Lab)
Like many of my colleagues, I recently spent a day shadowing
Greater Manchester police in my constituency. From trainees to
inspectors, they all expressed concerns about underfunding and
short-staffing, not to mention having to pick up the pieces from
cuts to mental health and ambulance services. What will Minister
do to ensure that the police in my constituency have the
resources to do their jobs and that my constituents feel safe?
Mr Hurd
I understand the truth of the messages that the hon. Lady has
received, because I have heard exactly the same thing. We are
responding to that with the additional money that is going into
the system—£10.7 million for Greater Manchester. I have already
laboured the point that we see that as a start. We are building
the case for additional resources, reflecting the fact that
demand on the system has changed and has become increasingly
complex. However, this is not just about money; it is also about
how demand on the police is managed. I have heard exactly the
same frustrations that she heard from officers in her area about
how their time is managed. That is based partly on demand from
other bits of the system and partly on failings or room for
improvement in how their bosses manage their time. We have to
press and pursue both those things, which is exactly what I am
doing.
Mr (Kettering) (Con)
Our police forces have never had to work harder. They are working
more efficiently than ever in tackling crime, not least in
Northamptonshire, where individual police officers do a fantastic
job, but they need to be paid properly. It is wrong not to accept
the recommendations of the independent pay review body, which
should be honoured in full. Conservative Governments always used
to prioritise police pay. Please can we get back to doing that?
Mr Hurd
I completely understand my hon. Friend’s point. I also fully
appreciate the frustration and, in places, anger that police
officers feel at the decision. As a representative of the
Government—this was a collective decision—I can say that we are
still in a difficult position in relation to the public finances,
and the Treasury and others have a difficult job to do in terms
of balancing fairness and affordability, which is what underlies
this decision.
Mr (Birmingham, Perry Barr)
(Lab)
With a 59% increase in violent crime, a 70% increase in murders
and an increase in occasions when police are unable to attend
serious disorder events on time, my community in Birmingham and
the west midlands is being put at risk. Trying to wring more out
of the budget towel is not possible, because there is a lack of
officers and finances.
Mr Hurd
We have already touched on the west midlands, and the hon.
Gentleman and I have had meetings about this matter, as I have
done with all west midlands MPs. As a result of those
representations, we have taken steps, which I hope he will
welcome, to put an additional £9.9 million into west midlands
policing. We have regular conversations with the leadership of
West Midlands police about the force’s needs, which feeds into
our demand work, into the 2019-20 settlement and into the CSR.
(Barrow and Furness)
(Ind)
When the Minister took the time to attend our special seminar on
the long-distance county lines drug-running problem last week, he
heard the drive and the determination and the new ideas of senior
officers from forces around the country. Does he accept that that
determination will be hamstrung unless he can tackle the issues
outlined in the damning National Audit Office report?
Mr Hurd
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on convening that meeting about
county lines. The fact that it was so well attended by so many
different groups involved in the issue is a great credit to him.
It is a classic example of a growing problem that is challenging
for the police because it crosses force borders and requires them
to co-ordinate their work in ways that they have historically
found difficult. That is exactly why the Home Office is playing a
role by providing £3 million to support a co-ordination centre to
help police forces better co-operate in their work on county
lines. I hope the hon. Gentleman welcomes that.
(Ogmore) (Lab) rose—
(Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
rose—
Mr Speaker
Well—
Two Whips, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker
Indeed. I call .
South Wales police have seen a 30% cut in central Government
funding since 2010 and faced a 12% cut overall. Remarkably, that
represents only the second smallest set of cuts across the UK,
and I am unsure whether the Minister thinks that South Wales MPs
should be grateful for that. The reality is that we have a
capital city in Cardiff and another large city in Swansea and
major events lead to real-time pressures, but the Government
still have not increased budgets. Police and Crime Commissioner
has called for additional
funding, because undue pressure is being placed on rural policing
and the policing of smaller communities, such as Ogmore.
Mr Hurd
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about Cardiff, because he
has made it to me before, and I certainly do undertake to speak
directly to the police and crime commissioner about it. I ask him
to recognise that something has changed in the Government’s
approach to police funding, which is reflected in the fact that
we recognise the increasing demands on the system and the
pressures on places such as Cardiff. I hope that he will welcome
South Wales police receiving an additional £8.2 million of
taxpayers’ money this year.
Greater Manchester police have lost 2,000 officers—a quarter of
their strength—in the past eight years. The Minister is right to
refer to the increasing demands, and particularly to the huge and
increasing amount of time that the police have to spend dealing
with people in mental health crisis, which is a massive problem
in south Manchester. If the Government are going to make massive
cuts to council services, mental health services, substance abuse
services, homelessness support, domestic violence services and
youth services, are they not going to have to increase funding to
the police disproportionately because it is the police who have
to pick up the pieces from all those other cuts?
Mr Hurd
I challenge the hon. Gentleman’s premise. I want to see police
officers focused on core policing and demand better managed in
Greater Manchester and other areas between local partners. He
talks about cuts. Actually, the Government are, rightly,
investing an additional £1 billion a year in mental health. I am
determined, as police Minister, to ensure that that money is felt
on the ground and that agencies on the ground are supported to
take some pressure off our police system.
