Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours To ask Her Majesty's
Government whether they have assessed the value of introducing
identity cards following Brexit. The Minister of State, Home Office
(Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con) My Lords, in 2010 the
Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition decided to scrap the
identity card scheme and the associated national...Request free trial
Asked by
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To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have assessed
the value of introducing identity cards following Brexit.
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of
Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, in 2010 the Conservative-Liberal Democrat
coalition decided to scrap the identity card scheme and the
associated national identity register because it was
expensive and represented a substantial erosion of civil
liberties. The Government have no plans to revisit that
decision.
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(Lab)
My Lords, a very interesting question was asked on 3 May by
the noble Lord, , who is a convert to
ID cards. Recognising the possible difficulties post Brexit
for unionists in accepting a de facto border with the rest
of the UK at Northern Irish ports, would the introduction
of biometric ID cards, across the UK—which includes
Northern Ireland—further emphasise their identity and
entitlements as UK citizens and help alleviate unionists’
concerns by underscoring their national identity within the
United Kingdom? In a way, passports in Northern Ireland
will not always be able to do that in the future.
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Question. The
status of Northern Ireland’s citizens will remain the same
post Brexit and they will still have access to the same
identity documents. The Government are committed to
protecting the Belfast agreement. One of the successes of
that agreement, and the peace process, was to protect the
ability of the people of Northern Ireland to identify as
British, Irish or both.
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(Con)
My Lords, the last time this question came up, last year,
we were told that this was 20th century stuff, not 21st
century. I have never personally met a police officer who
does not feel that identity cards would be more than
helpful. I am of an age to remember them during the war.
There is another factor which all in this House are
interested in. Last week, the Office for National
Statistics brought out the results of their “surveys” about
what the future will be. It would undoubtedly consider that
identity cards would be a huge improvement in enabling us
to forecast the future more accurately. That would be in
all our interests: might the Minister consider it?
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I thank my noble friend for that question, and for
forewarning me of it. I have talked about cost and civil
liberties but, in addition to the things which my noble
friend talked about, I draw attention to the fact that an
increasing number of transactions and interactions,
including the majority of identity frauds now occur online,
where documents are far less effective in proving identity.
I will take back what my noble friend said, but we should
recognise that there is now a thriving market in fraud with
actual, physical documents.
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(LD)
My Lords, in 2005 experts at the London School of Economics
estimated that the introduction of an ID card scheme would
cost up to £18 billion. Taking account of inflation and the
total absence of any Brexit dividend, does the Minister
agree that £26 billion would be better spent on the
National Health Service?
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The quite swingeing costs were certainly a consideration
when the coalition Government decided to scrap identity
cards or take them no further. I do not know about the £20
billion figure, but abolishing the scheme saved the
taxpayer at the time £86 million and removed the need for a
total investment of £835 million. What the Government
choose to spend the money on will be a collective matter
for the Government.
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of Bengarve
(CB)
My Lords, this is not a question about identity but
identification. Is it not quaint that we still have people
who imagine that ID cards are a threat to civil liberties,
who walk around with mobile phones, which constantly give
away far more information than any ID card I have ever
heard of? When will the Government recognise that being
able to show who one is is seriously important, matters
particularly for people who may not be entirely sure about
their place of birth, and is necessary for people in
Northern Ireland?
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I hope that I have just addressed the Northern Ireland
point. However, I totally concur with the noble Baroness
that with mobile phones and on forums people give away
information about their personal identification that they
would never dream of telling the state or their banks. That
is why I pointed out the more serious development of online
fraud and the importance of proving identity in a lot of
different situations. Whether it is proving your age in a
nightclub or proving the right to rent or work, they all
need different solutions.
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(Lab)
Has the Minister noticed, over the period of time when
questions on the subject have been repeatedly raised—by, to
his great credit, my noble friend —that the
mood in this Chamber, if not more widely, has tended more
towards recognising the necessity of ID cards? Has she
noticed that no one these days defends it on grounds of
principle—not even the Liberal Democrats—
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Noble Lords
Yes, we are!
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The question from the Liberal Democrats was entirely on an
issue of cost, which is not irrelevant but not an issue of
principle. To clear this thing up, and in the interests of
transparency, can the Minister tell us, as this was done
during the coalition Government, which party in the
coalition she most blames for the decision to scrap the
scheme?
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My Lords, I do not blame either of them. However, I do not
disagree at all with the noble Lord when he says that the
issue of proof of ID and identity assurance is becoming more
and more important. I am making the point that different
identity assurance proofs are required in different
situations. One would not expect to go into a nightclub and
have to prove one’s immigration’s status, and similarly, in
other situations you might not have to prove other things.
Therefore we are trying to get to both a proportionate and
reasonable proof of identity.
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