Access Rights to Grandparents 4.29 pm Nigel Huddleston
(Mid Worcestershire) (Con) I beg to move, That this
House has considered grandchildren’s access right to their
grandparents. It is a pleasure to serve under your
chairmanship, Sir Christopher, and I am grateful for the
opportunity to...Request free trial
Access Rights to Grandparents
4.29 pm
-
(Mid Worcestershire)
(Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered grandchildren’s access right
to their grandparents.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
Christopher, and I am grateful for the opportunity to
introduce this debate. Since announcing that this debate
was happening, I have been inundated with emails, letters
and calls from grandparents and grandchildren from across
the country expressing their support, and many colleagues
from across the House have told me that they have been
dealing with cases on this issue for many years. I extend a
special thank you to Dame Esther Rantzen and Jane and Marc
Jackson from the Bristol Grandparents Support Group, who
first brought the issue to my attention. I thank the
Minister, as we have had several conversations about this
issue over the past few months.
It is not the first time that this issue has been debated
in the House of Commons. A similar debate took place about
a year ago. Unfortunately, because of purdah rules close to
the election, the then Minister was unable to give the full
response that I think he expected to give. A Green Paper
was mentioned. I hope that the new Minister—the
Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. and learned
Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy
Frazer)—will be able to give a fuller response today. We
will ensure she has time.
As I said in a question to the Prime Minister late last
year, divorce and family breakdown can take an emotional
toll on all involved, but the family dynamic that is all
too often overlooked is that between grandparents and their
grandchildren. When access to grandchildren is blocked,
some grandparents call it a kind of living bereavement.
Unlike some other countries, grandparents in the UK have no
automatic rights to see their grandchildren, and vice
versa. I count myself lucky that I had a very good
relationship with my grandparents when I was growing up—I
went on holidays with them and saw them virtually every
weekend—but I am well aware that not every family is
fortunate enough to have that family dynamic.
The estrangement of grandchildren from grandparents happens
for a wide variety of reasons: divorce, bereavement,
marital breakdown or just a falling out between family
members. However the estrangement has come about, rarely is
it anything to do with the grandchildren. That is why I
have deliberately worded the motion for the debate today so
that the emphasis is on children’s rights as well as those
of their grandparents. They are the innocent victims in
family breakdown. The loss of the relationship with their
grandparents is usually the result of a disagreement among
the adults, and the children have had no say and no control
over the matter.
-
(Charnwood)
(Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that, for children going through
the trauma and upset of a family breakdown or a divorce,
access to grandparents can often provide the stability they
really need?
-
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I have received volumes
of precisely those sorts of comments in the emails sent to
me over the past few weeks. It is a compelling point.
Large numbers of children in family breakdowns are left
very sad and confused about the sudden loss of contact with
their grandparents, which in many cases goes completely and
utterly unexplained. The children are then left feeling
that they have been unloved by their grandparents or
believe that their grandparents simply did not want to see
them anymore.
One grandson who was denied contact with his grandparents
from the age of 10 said to me,
“as a child, you are powerless to insist that you see your
grandparents, however much you may want to. I feel a sense
of deep loss, guilt and regret. I truly hope that my
grandparents still knew of our love for them, and that we
were powerless to do anything.”
Another grandchild referred to their parents’ decision to
sever ties with his grandparents after a family
disagreement as “an abuse of power”. While grandparents may
have friends, partners and support groups to turn to and
lean on, young children, as my hon. Friend has said, are
often left to deal with the emotional toll of the
separation from their grandparents by themselves. The
situation undoubtedly also has an impact on the family
dynamic and the relationship between the children and their
parents.
-
(Berwickshire, Roxburgh
and Selkirk) (Con)
My hon. Friend is speaking passionately. My constituent,
Issy Shillinglaw from Tweedbank, has been campaigning
outside the Scottish Parliament for many years, every
single week, for the law in Scotland to be changed. Does my
hon. Friend recognise that the same issue exists in
Scotland and that there is also a jurisdictional issue?
Sometimes parents move south or north of the border and
there is that extra challenge in ensuring access is
achieved in different parts of the United Kingdom.
-
I am pleased that my hon. Friend has raised that point. I
focus today on English and Welsh law, but the laws are very
similar in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I know that
campaigning groups have been set up to argue the same case
as we are making in England and Wales. The jurisdiction
element causes great confusion, which I hope the Minister
will also address.
I have heard horrendous stories about children being put up
for adoption despite the grandparents wanting to care for
them. They cannot, however, afford the legal costs to
pursue the issue through the courts, which I will come on
to in a minute. There are cases where grandparents are
denied access to their grandchildren for perfectly
legitimate reasons and in the best interests of the child,
and I am not seeking to block that. Safeguarding children
should be paramount. As the Prime Minister said when I
raised this issue in Prime Minister’s questions,
“when making a decision about a child’s future, the first
consideration must be their welfare”.
She also stated that
“grandparents...play an important role in the lives of
their grandchildren.”—[Official Report, 22 November 2017;
Vol. 631, c. 1035.]
With this debate, I am trying to draw attention to the
growing number of cases where grandparents are denied
access to their grandchildren for apparently little or no
legitimate reason.
I have focused on the impact of family breakdown on the
grandchildren. I turn now to how the breakdown of
relationships can impact on the grandparents. As I said
earlier, some of the grandparents who have contacted me
have said that being cut off from their grandchildren is
like a living bereavement. One grandparent poignantly said
that the grief does not have
“the closure or finality of death”.
-
Dr (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that time is not a healer?
The cases I have dealt with have gone on for decades and
the hurt grows rather than diminishes. Does he agree?
-
I do agree. Unfortunately, in the letters and emails I have
received the stories go back years and years, and in some
cases decades. They are absolutely heartrending. Many hon.
Members will have received similar and seen people in
surgeries over the past few years. The length of time is
horrendous.
Another common feeling is, of course, guilt. Many
grandparents feel that they must have failed their children
somehow for the relationship to have deteriorated to such
an extent, and they are ashamed that they were not able to
hold their family together. One grandfather said:
“I have been to the blackest places you can imagine and
felt total despair and loss of confidence in myself as a
father.”
Hon. Members could be forgiven for assuming, as I perhaps
did when I first started hearing about these cases, that
some drastic event must have taken place for family
breakdown to have happened, but that is often not the case.
Too often, the family rift arises from a simple tiff that
snowballs out of control. As one grandfather said:
“there is an inevitable feeling that no one cuts people off
for no reason but it can happen for the slightest thing, it
doesn’t take a full blown argument, just a wrong word or a
badly timed comment”.
Another said that,
“a lot of the time, the grandparents have no idea what the
problem is”.
I have heard some truly heartbreaking stories from
grandparents detailing how their emotional anguish has led
them to consider, and in some cases attempt, suicide. One
grandmother who considered suicide said that
“the only thing that stops me is hoping that my daughter
will have a change of heart and let me be part of my
grandson’s life again”.
Sadly, three grandparents known to the Bristol Grandparents
Support Group felt unable to continue their lives without
seeing their grandchildren. I was shocked to hear from one
grandparent who told me that seven members of their support
group had committed suicide.
-
(East Worthing and
Shoreham) (Con)
My hon. Friend is right to raise this very important issue.
Does he agree that when parents divorce, they do not
divorce their children? The law now has a supposition that
the parents should both be as involved as possible in their
children’s upbringing when cases have to go to court
because they cannot be agreed in mediation. Does my hon.
Friend not think that it would be equally appropriate to
have a presumption that grandparents should be involved as
much as possible in the upbringing of those children,
unless—and only unless—there is a problem with the welfare
of that child?
-
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point—he is very
knowledgeable about these issues. I will come on later to
the asks and the potential resolutions. He has absolutely
hit the nail on the head—that is exactly what we need. That
also involves safeguarding. I hope the Minister will
respond to that point.
That this is a growing issue is evidenced by the growing
number of grandparents support groups across the country.
One has been recently established in my patch, in
Worcestershire. The Bristol Grandparents Support Group has
dealt with more than 6,000 grandparents in the 11 years
since it was formed. Unfortunately, one experience that
many alienated grandparents have in common is that they
have sometimes had a visit from the police. I have heard
from a number of grandparents who have tried to send
birthday cards or Christmas gifts to their grandchildren
and found themselves being visited by the police and
accused of harassment. As Jane Jackson of the Bristol
Grandparents Support Group said:
“grandparents are living in fear that if they drop a
present at the door, then officers will come and march them
to the cells”.
Of course, genuine cases of stalking or harassment are
extremely serious and need to be dealt with accordingly,
but it seems that our anti-harassment laws are being used
as a weapon in family disputes. I hope the Minister will
tell us how we can overcome that.
What can grandparents who have been cut off from their
grandchildren do? If appealing directly to the parents’
good will does not work, the first step is to go through
mediation. If that does not work, the next step is for
grandparents to apply for a child arrangement order.
Increasing numbers of grandparents are taking that route.
Ministry of Justice stats show that 2,000 grandparents
applied for CAOs in 2016, up from just over 1,600 in 2014.
Unlike parents, most grandparents must take the additional
step of seeking leave of the court before they can even
make the application for the child arrangement order. I
know that is not intended to be an obstacle for
grandparents, but clearly it is. I urge the Minister to
consider introducing an automatic right for grandparents to
seek contact through the courts.
As well as being emotionally draining, the whole process
can be time-consuming and costly. Some grandparents have
told me that they have spent three years and thousands of
pounds going through the process. Time is not always on
their side, and many are on fixed incomes and are dipping
into their savings and pensions to pay for legal costs, as
legal aid is rarely available in those cases.
Once a child arrangement order has been granted,
enforcement can be an issue. One grandmother told me that
she and her husband spent nine months going through the
courts, had three court hearings, and were finally granted
an order of contact; but as her daughter chose to ignore
it, she had still not seen or spoken to her granddaughter.
What else can be done? I am calling for the Government to
introduce an amendment to the Children Act 1989, to
enshrine in law the child’s right to have a relationship
with their grandparents by adding the words “and extended
family” or “and any grandparents” to the section on
parental involvement in relation to the welfare of the
child, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and
Shoreham (Tim Loughton) said.
-
(Hendon) (Con)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for securing this debate.
As he is aware, on 31 January 2017, my constituent,
Lorraine Bushell, held a lobby day here in Parliament. I
welcome the right of the child to see their grandparent,
but is my hon. Friend aware that such a procedure already
exists in France? We can learn from that country and make
it happen for our constituents.
-
I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. That is a
good precedent. Changing the law also changes the culture
so that deliberately restricting the access of one family
member to another becomes socially unacceptable. The legal
change that France has already pursued is very important,
as is the social tone that comes with it. That is a very
important point.
-
(Mid Dorset and
North Poole) (Con)
I, too, am very grateful to my hon. Friend for securing
this debate. It is clear from the number of hon. Members
here to support him that this issue affects not just his
constituents but the constituents of every single Member of
Parliament. He mentioned the law. Going through a court
process is painful, time-consuming and costly. Will his
proposal ensure that families will not have to go through
that painful and costly procedure?
-
I thank my hon. Friend for making that important point. One
of the important considerations is the need to ensure that
children’s welfare is paramount. Some kind of court action
is probably required, but we can make it a hell of a lot
easier. I am calling for an amendment to section 1(2A) of
the Children Act 1989, to provide for the court to presume
that the involvement of a grandparent in the life of the
child concerned will further the child’s welfare, unless
the contrary is shown. It is important to note the
phraseology. That kind of amendment would not grant
grandparents the right to involvement in the child’s life
if a case can be made that it would bring harm to the child
in question.
-
(Aberdeen South)
(Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very
important debate. I have been supporting constituents in
Aberdeen South who have been denied access to their
grandchildren, and I have been struck by the role of social
media. Facebook posts can be used as a weapon, and
grandparents sometimes feel punished by them. Will my hon.
Friend join me in calling for UK Government action not just
in England and Wales but in Scotland to address these
points?
-
I will indeed stand united with my hon. Friend in calling
for similar action in Scotland. This issue affects all
nations of the UK, and I hope we can act with one voice.
There are unintended consequences to any change in the law.
In the previous debate on this issue, questions were asked
about what a change in the law would mean, in terms of
clarity about who has got the ultimate right over children
and grandchildren. The Minister is extremely capable and is
surrounded by a very capable team at the MOJ, so I am
fairly confident that we can find a form of works that will
work. I do not want every single iteration of unintended
consequences to prevent us from doing the right thing.
I hope that this debate will raise awareness of the anguish
that grandparents and grandchildren across the country
feel, and that my brief summary of just a fraction of the
cases I have come across demonstrates to the Minister that
the status quo is simply not acceptable. I wish to conclude
with the words of a grandparent who sent me an email just
last night. She very eloquently said:
“My story has been going on for 15 years…The pain I have
and still feel is indescribable and affects every aspect of
my life…dreading Christmas, Easter, birthdays, mother’s
day, summer breaks…all the times when you would hope to see
the grandkids. Instead, just pain and heartache—a life
sentence. So although at 70 years of age I will probably
die before I’m forgiven whatever it is I’ve done, you may
be able to help the hundreds of poor souls suffering the
same torment.”
I wish to say to that lady that I will indeed do what I can
to help, and I call on the Minister to do the same.
4.46 pm
-
(Bristol North West)
(Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire
(Nigel Huddleston) on securing this important debate and
championing this really important issue. He referred to my
constituent, Jane Jackson, who set up the Bristol
Grandparents Support Group and has been campaigning for a
very long time on this issue.
I seek to make only a short contribution today, to share
the words of Jane Jackson, because her story speaks for
itself. She said:
“Ten years ago, I lost contact with my granddaughter after
my son’s separation and divorce.
To not see our granddaughter was heartbreaking and, as is
often said, a ‘living bereavement.’ Contact was stopped
overnight. The last time we saw her, at the age of seven,
she told us she had been told to ‘dump her family in
Bristol.’ That was the last time we saw her. You go through
the stages of grief as you do when you actually lose
someone, except you are grieving for someone who is still
alive.
Not being able to tell her how much she was loved was
beyond words. I just had a constant knot in my stomach, a
huge void.
She was my first grandchild, my first granddaughter, and
she always will be.
She is the person I first think of in the morning and last
thing at night. Does she think we don’t love her anymore?
I have a memory box for her, with all sorts of things in
it—pieces of a jig-saw. It includes a tiny bear she gave me
that says, ‘The best granny’. I certainly don’t feel that
way. There are so many questions and no way to find
answers.
The acid drip feed of alienation is a very powerful thing,
and I have no doubt that a very bad picture of us has been
painted.
The emotions felt when this happens are so destructive.
Because when you become a grandparent, it holds such
promise of the future, you being able to watch the new
generation growing, giving them your experiences of life
and to be a support through the highs and the lows.
I decided I wasn’t prepared to go down a dark spiral of
depression and so set up Bristol Grandparents Support
Group. I had to turn a negative into a positive.
At my first meeting we had 6 grandparents. To date, I have
now been contacted by over 6,000 grandparents across the
UK, and we are now a registered charity with groups around
the country.”
For Jane Jackson to turn that heartbreaking series of
events, which for many of us is difficult to understand,
into the positive of establishing a charity such as the
Bristol Grandparents Support Group, engaging with those
throughout the country suffering similar pain, and
achieving such wide reach over so many years, deserves
tribute from all of us. I have every confidence that the
Minister will tell us in her response how she and the
Government in which she serves will seek to make the
changes that so many people are rightly crying out for
across the country.
I shall finish with an update, which I received from Jane
only recently. She said:
“Our granddaughter contacted her Dad a couple of weeks ago
and has been messaging me. She is coming to Bristol over
the bank holiday weekend, which is going to be very
emotional.
The little girl we last saw at age 7 is now a young women
of 17. We now start to build up trust and to start a brand
new relationship. She has told me that she never forgot us
and knows we love her—words I never, ever thought we would
hear. It is early days and it could all change in the wink
of an eye, but I have already told her how much she is
loved, and that is the most important thing.”
I pay tribute to Jane and to people in her position
throughout the country. I wish them the very best for this
bank holiday weekend. I support the efforts of right hon.
and hon. Members across the House in seeking to bring joy
and love back to those who have suffered so much dark and
pain in the past.
4.51 pm
-
(Northampton South)
(Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire
(Nigel Huddleston) for organising the debate and for his
excellent and moving speech. I thank the other contributors
for their moving speeches too. At a time when politics and
public opinion often revolve around Brexit and adjacent
matters that are seen as huge, it is important to recognise
that our constituents are directly affected by other,
personal problems that require our attention, such as
grandparents’ access to children.
The bond between children and their grandparents is an
essential one, yet, as we have heard, the latter lack clear
legal rights to the former. In the event of divorce or
family dispute, grandparents need to make an application
for permission to see their grandchildren under a court
order. At the hearing, the court assesses the relationship
between the grandparent and the child. It is heartbreaking
that a bond between close relatives has to be deemed to be
significant, or not, by a legal entity, especially when the
two parties are usually victims of a family rupture.
I have been contacted by a number of grandparents in my
constituency who have sought my help after being denied
access to their grandchildren. Colleagues have related
similar experiences. To that end, I met Marion Turner of
the GranPart support group, which is based in Northampton
and Milton Keynes. The group offers such grandparents help
and support to deal with the pain and loss, and it provides
free legal advice from solicitors. The information it
provides online and via telephone about the complexities of
application for leave of court, child arrangement orders
and so on is of great comfort to grandparents at what is a
hugely stressful time.
I am grateful for the support given by that group in this
matter, but I believe that there is still a need for a
justice reform to treat the problem at the root, instead of
people having to try to ameliorate the consequences case by
case. To that effect, a few months ago my hon. Friend the
Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), whose
constituency neighbours mine, with me and others, sent a
letter to the Minister of State for Courts and Justice, who
at the time was my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and
Walton (Dominic Raab), calling for a legislative change to
allow grandparents to have legal access to their
grandchildren. Since then we have awaited developments. I
therefore join my hon. Friend the Member for Mid
Worcestershire in asking the Minister—who is now, I hope,
of some standing—to produce a long-awaited Green Paper,
treating the matter with the attention it clearly deserves.
4.54 pm
-
(Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire
(Nigel Huddleston) on securing the debate. We talked about
it last Thursday, when we were away with the armed forces
parliamentary scheme. When I heard what he was planning to
say, I mentioned that I was keen to come along and support
him. I have constituents who think the same as he does,
which is why I am here: first, to support him; and
secondly, to look to the Minister for her thoughts on how
we can make things happen.
The issue is close to my heart. I am thankful for a
wonderful daughter-in-law who allows me to bring my
grandchildren to church and Sunday school, to tag along at
family dinners when time permits and, with my wife, to
enjoy family holidays with them. Such occasions with
children and grandchildren are always precious, whenever
they may be.
Looking to the past, I find that my sons always had a great
advocate not only in their mother, who is truly a warrior
mum, but in their grandparents, who simply adored them. No
breakage in my grandmother or my mother’s house, even of
special china or collectibles, was so bad. If it was my
children who broke them, their grandparents would said,
“Don’t worry about that”—it was not the same when I was
young, but that is by the way. Even when it came to writing
on the wall, it was never vandalism but artwork, and not a
word was said, other than, “That’s all right.”
I was often amazed that the parents who believed firmly in
the “spare the rod and spoil the child” doctrine when it
came to raising me and my brothers and sister were suddenly
converted to saying, “It’s better they are spirited,” or,
“There’s no harm in them,” or, my personal favourite,
“You’re far too hard on them.” That was grandparents; they
see things that wee bit differently. Words that were never
applied to me found a home when it came to the boys, and
now to the great-grandchildren.
Why is that? It is because the job of a grandparent is to
love, to love some more and to love some more again. Hon.
Members have referred to that in their contributions. I
heartily support what they have said, and what others will
say after me—I am conscious that others wish to speak, so I
shall not go on for too much longer.
Discipline is for the parents; joy is for grandparents. As
a grandparent now, I probably see that better than ever.
For that reason, my heart aches when I think of the more
than 20 decisions a day being made under the children order
behind closed doors in courts in Northern Ireland. It
grieves me greatly to see what is happening. Rather than
mediation, under legislation in Northern Ireland families
battle their way through the courts for access to children
and grandchildren. An analysis of data from the family
proceedings courts, the family care centres and the High
Court found that 10,206 contact and residence orders had
been made over the past three judicial years. Those orders
can relate to more than one child. That is what is
happening in Northern Ireland.
We have that system, which I wanted to speak about if I
could in a short time. By comparison, Family Mediation NI,
the largest provider of pre-court family mediation in
Northern Ireland, received Government funding over the same
period to assist only 750 families. That is just scraping
at the edge of things. I understand that the Minister has
no responsibility for the issue in Northern Ireland, but I
wanted to give a Northern Ireland perspective in the
debate, because it ties in with what the hon. Member for
Mid Worcestershire and others have said, and includes
Scotland and Wales—throughout the United Kingdom. It is
important to put that on the record.
There is no automatic right to apply for visitation for a
grandparent, and that must change. We need to legislate to
ensure that grandparents have their right to see and sow in
the life of their grandchild, which is why I wholeheartedly
support the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire and the
themes and thoughts raised by other Members in speeches and
interventions. I spoke on this issue the last time it came
to the Floor—perhaps he secured the previous debate too—and
I was later contacted by a lady who was not my constituent
but had heard the debate. She thanked me for speaking out
on her behalf as a grandparent. She was being denied access
solely because of an argument between her son and his
former spouse; it had nothing whatsoever to do with her or
her family.
In conclusion, as a grandparent and someone who could not
imagine life without my grandchildren, I ask the Minister
to take the issue into consideration and to take the steps
to make the changes necessary to allow grandparents basic
rights to family life and love. That is all such people ask
for: the chance to love their own flesh and blood, and not
to be caught in the middle of a conflict that has
absolutely nothing to do with them yet so deeply and
irrevocably affects them.
4.59 pm
-
(Milton Keynes South)
(Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
Christopher. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the
Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) on raising
this important subject. I do not intend to speak for long,
because I know others wish to contribute.
My motivation for speaking and interest in the issue stem
from the wonderful organisation GranPart that my hon.
Friend the Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer)
mentioned, which was set up by Marion Turner in both our
constituencies. It is a very important support and
self-help group for grandparents who find themselves in
this appalling situation. I have gone to visit the group a
number of times and have heard their stories. The emotions
there are very raw. Some of the cases have only just
started, but others have been going on for many years. It
has been mentioned in the debate that time is not a
healer—some of these cases go on for far too long. I have
heard the stories; I absolutely agree with the analysis
that my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire
provided and I support his proposals for reform.
I do not have grandchildren or children, but I was a
grandson. I think back to the incredibly important and
influential role that my two grandmothers played in my
upbringing; I cannot imagine what my life would have been
like without them and cannot imagine that similar level of
love and support being denied any grandchild. They passed
away many years ago, but I still think of them regularly.
Particularly in here, if I have a dilemma to resolve, I
often ask myself, “What would gran have said?” in this
matter. The answer often comes more quickly than if I had
not asked that question. To deny any grandchild that
support and love is absolutely wrong, where the grandchild
is innocent in whatever the dispute is.
From what I have seen in GranPart meetings, the current
access arrangements do not work. There are legal ways of
getting access but they are too cumbersome and the barriers
are too big. Many of the grandparents I have met do not
want to go down that road, either because they cannot
afford it or because they just do not want the anguish. It
is a barrier that should not be there—there is a problem to
address immediately.
In the debate last year and other conversations and
correspondence that have happened, there has been talk of a
broader family justice Green Paper that looks at all
aspects of the issue. There are other issues that I am not
as familiar with, which also need to be addressed, but I
make a plea to the Minister not to delay in making a reform
and improvement here, in the context of a broader review of
family justice. This is a stand-alone issue.
The grief that grandparents are suffering is here and now.
It is real. Surely we have the bandwidth in this place and
in Government to address it in isolation. I am not denying
that the other matters are important, too, but they can be
looked at later on. I ask the Minister to have a separate
look at this issue. Again, I thank my hon. Friend for
raising this very important subject.
5.03 pm
-
(Hendon) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
Christopher. I will not delay the House for too long on
this matter, because I have spoken about it in the past. I
congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid
Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) on securing this debate.
As I mentioned earlier, my constituent Lorraine Bushell had
an event here in the Houses of Parliament, when we were
joined by Esther Rantzen. At that time, the meeting was
packed; today, a number of people are in the Public Gallery
to listen to what we have to say on this subject.
I want to make a plea to the Minister: I previously brought
this issue to the attention of the Government and I hoped
it would be in the Conservative party manifesto. I cannot
recall whether it was—but even if it was not, I plea to her
to make this issue a priority. Many grandparents are of an
age that means that time is of the essence. They are not
able to go down a legal route; many people would find that
difficult not only financially but emotionally. People do
not want to go down that route, because whether it is in a
divorce court or between families, it is very painful for
all those involved.
I raised an issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid
Worcestershire that my constituents raised with me: the
resolution is not that the grandparents have the right, but
the children. The child should have the right to access to
their grandparents. We could incorporate that into our law
in this country, based upon the legal system in France or
whatever. That would allow the possibility for children to
be able to have that relationship with their grandparents.
Other Members have made reference to the relationship for
them and for their grandparents; we all treasure and
remember that relationship. My grandparents are no longer
alive, but I often think that being a grandparent is often
a second opportunity. When people are younger, perhaps they
do not have the time that they would like to spend with
their children because they are busy at work. It is a
second opportunity to do the things that they were not able
to do, perhaps because they did it wrong or they want to do
it differently. Who knows? We must not allow this
opportunity to go by. I repeat my plea to the Minister to
take action on this issue sooner rather than later.
5.06 pm
-
(Glasgow East)
(SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
Christopher. I commend the hon. Member for Mid
Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) on securing the debate. I
am conscious that it focuses on the situation in England
and Wales, which is why, as I indicated to you, Sir
Christopher, I will keep my remarks short, to allow the
hon. Gentleman time at the end to conclude.
I thank grandparents for the work that they do—in
particular kinship carers, who are huge part of my
constituency. The number of kinship carers who are
grandparents is massive. Before taking part in the debate,
I reflected on my own experience. My mum and dad split up
before I was one year old. My dad was pretty much off the
scene from that point. It was probably then that my mother
was faced with the dilemma of whether to go and visit her
ex-mother-in-law and take me with her. To my mum’s credit,
she did that. That must have been quite a difficult thing
to do; I respect it and I think we would all want that.
The Members from north of the border, the hon. Member for
Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) and the
hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Ross Thomson), mentioned
the situation in Scotland. It is only right to put that on
the record. The hon. Gentlemen made the point that under
the current Children (Scotland) Act 1995, grandparents do
not have an automatic right to see their grandchild, but
can apply for a court order to get that access.
It is important to place on the record that the Scottish
Government are committed to reviewing the 1995 Act; the
consultation on that begins this month. I hope that hon.
Members will feed into that consultation and encourage
their constituents to do so. My only word of caution is
that it is paramount that the needs of the child are put
first. For example, it is possible that contact with
grandparents could allow a parent who has been deemed unfit
to see their child to have contact with the child. That
raises some child protection issues. I understand the need
for us to get this right. I hope that the consultation will
tease that out and we can get to a point that balances
child safety and the most important thing: people having a
relationship with their grandchildren.
I am grateful for the opportunity to sum up on behalf of
the Scottish National party and I hope that any remaining
time will be given to the hon. Member for Mid
Worcestershire to make his closing remarks.
5.08 pm
-
(Ashfield)
(Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
Christopher. I add my congratulations to the hon. Member
for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) on securing the
debate. We have heard touching stories today that
demonstrate just how important the relationship between
children and grandparents can be. Experiences of our own
grandparents in our formative years, and of actually being
a grandparent from some of our more experienced colleagues,
make clear that this relationship can be incredibly
significant and often unique.
Grandparents can enrich the lives of children and provide
one of the closest and most loving experiences a child can
have. The relationship can be important in other ways, too.
Grandparents can provide vital help and support for
parents, particularly in recent years as increasing
childcare costs have pushed parents to rely on informal
care from family members. It is difficult to overstate the
role of grandparents for many families.
Whether through our own experiences or through those we
hear in our constituency surgeries, we know that family
relationships can simply break down. Of course, the welfare
of the child comes first and we should endeavour to ensure
that that remains so. But the impact on the grandparent can
be devastating. Many are distanced and lose contact, and
they are understandably distressed by the experience. That
can be made worse when they feel they have no effective
form of redress to apply for access.
As it stands, child arrangements orders, established by the
Children and Families Act 2014, determine where and with
whom a child lives. They determine who can access a child,
spend time with them, visit them and speak to them on the
phone, and those people are named in the order. However,
before applying for a child contact order, grandparents
must seek leave from a court. In 2010, the Labour
Government produced a Green Paper that considered that
legal requirement for grandparents and, acknowledging
concerns that it may be an administrative barrier to
justice, vowed to assess the extent to which that was the
case.
My party lost the 2010 election, and the condition to seek
leave from a court was supported by the coalition
Government on the basis that it filtered potentially
vexatious access claims. Nobody objects to the prevention
of claims that may harm a child, but does the Minister
agree that an updated review may be important to
understanding the impact of the requirement to seek leave,
which may be an administrative barrier to justice? The
Government promised earlier in the year to publish a family
justice Green Paper, which would provide a further
opportunity to assess the necessity of that requirement.
Can the Minister tell us when that Green Paper will be
published, and will she guarantee that the requirement for
grandparents to seek leave from a court will be addressed?
For grandparents who succeed in their leave application and
then find themselves negotiating an unfamiliar and costly
legal system to gain access to their grandchild, the
removal of legal aid is a further barrier. Early legal
advice is vital to ensuring that grandparents are best
prepared to navigate complex legal requirements, yet cuts
to legal aid have removed the right to representation in
many areas of the family court.
The impact that an absence of advice can have on an
application is demonstrated when objections are raised and
the process moves to a full hearing. We simply have no way
of knowing how many grandparents who find themselves
without those vital resources are left unsuccessful or
deterred from applying due to a lack of legal access. Does
the Minister agree that cuts to vital legal aid present a
barrier to justice and may leave grandparents without
contact with their grandchildren?
Arbitration and mediation are, of course, more amicable,
preferable and cheaper routes, and they have been found to
work in many cases, but we acknowledge that family disputes
may not be that simple and that, sadly, the courts are
sometimes the only appropriate course. It is imperative
that we provide a legal system that protects both the
welfare of the child and access to justice for grandparents
seeking to navigate complex and unfamiliar procedures.
I am sure we were all touched by the stories we heard from
hon. Members today; I certainly was. I hope that the
Minister agrees that it is incumbent on us all in this
place to ensure that the justice system is accessible and
open, and absent of obstacles that may prevent loving
grandparents from seeing their beloved grandchildren.
5.12 pm
-
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice
(Lucy Frazer)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
Christopher. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for
Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) on securing the
debate and continuing to highlight this really important
issue.
Grandparents play a significant role in family life. There
is something special about the bond between a grandparent
and a grandchild. The loving relationship that is formed
often enriches family life. Grandparents provide stability
when it is needed. They can give a sense of history and
show how important it is to belong to a family. They can
give familial support when it is needed, such as when it is
difficult for more immediate family members to be called
upon. My grandparents—in particular my grandmother—taught
me many things. She passed on her values.
I, too, recognise the work of Marc and Jane Jackson from
the Bristol Grandparents Support Group and of Dame Esther
Rantzen. As my hon. Friend mentioned, I had the opportunity
to listen to their points on this issue at a meeting he
arranged with my predecessor when I was Parliamentary
Private Secretary to the former Justice Secretary.
Hon. Members have made important and powerful points during
the debate, and many have written to me about this subject.
My hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar)
pointed out that grandparents often support grandchildren
when there is family breakdown. The hon. Member for Stroud
(Dr Drew) said that time is not a healer. In his
impassioned speech, the hon. Member for Bristol North West
(Darren Jones) described the grief of his constituent, whom
I met, and the work that that family has done to support so
many other people. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim
Shannon) reminded us of the precious moments that he has
had as a grandparent and that grandparents can have with
their grandchildren.
My hon. Friends the Members for Milton Keynes South (Iain
Stewart) and for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer) mentioned
the great work that has been done by a support group in
their constituencies. My hon. Friends the Members for
Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) and for
Aberdeen South (Ross Thomson) and the hon. Member for
Glasgow East (David Linden) reminded us that other
jurisdictions are grappling with this important issue. My
hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) reminded us
that the law in France has already moved on.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire told us
some terrible stories about the effect on grandparents of
an inability to see their grandchildren. He quoted
grandparents and grandchildren directly, not only
underlining how important the issue is but giving them a
powerful voice in this debate. I commend him for doing so.
He made an important point that children are the innocent
victims in family breakdown, and that the best interests of
the child must always come first, which my hon. Friend the
Member for Hendon reinforced. My hon. Friends were right to
emphasise that point. Children are at the heart of our
family laws and our family justice system.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire recognised
and made clear that there is a legal route for a
grandparent to gain contact with their grandchildren. Under
the current legislation, a family court can make a child
arrangements order to determine who a child can live with,
spend time with or otherwise have contact with. Some 2,000
grandparents go down that route every year. Let me describe
how it works. A child arrangements order can provide for
face-to-face contact—long visits and short visits,
including overnight stays if appropriate. If necessary, it
can also provide for contact to be made by other means,
such as email, telephone or letter. The court has
flexibility when considering whether to make a child
arrangements order and, if so, on what terms.
Whether the court orders that a grandparent or other family
member should have involvement in a child’s life depends on
a number of factors. One or both parents may oppose such
involvement. The Children and Family Court Advisory and
Support Service may be asked to provide a welfare report on
the beneficial impact of the involvement of a grandparent
or other family member, and any risk of harm from ongoing
parental opposition to such involvement and exposure of the
child to ongoing conflict. That report can also include the
wishes and feelings of the child. As I said, the welfare of
the child is the paramount consideration at all times.
Given the dreadful stories we have heard about the impact
of this issue on people’s lives, it is clear that the
system could work better, and I am keen to look into how we
can improve it.
-
We are fortunate indeed that the Minister has a good deal
more time than Ministers normally have to respond, so I
would welcome a lengthy response. The system she has
outlined—the legal system of going to court—is complex and
heart-wrenching. People should not have to go through that.
Will she directly address the point my hon. Friend the
Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) made about
a presumption, which we hope would avoid the need for
people to go to court in the first place?
-
As always, my hon. Friend makes an important point that he
expects me deal with, and I was just about to come to that.
He made a very important point about out-of-court
procedures. We need to look at the expensive and difficult
court procedure, which sometimes increases conflict. That
is not just the case when grandparents apply to court; in
family law as a whole, courts can provide resolution for
people who really need it but also increase conflict,
particularly in family situations.
-
In my contribution I referred to Family Mediation NI, which
has the specific task of trying to sort things out before
they get to court. It was clear to me from a Northern
Ireland perspective that had more money been available to
it, many of those cases would have been sorted out
beforehand and would never have got to court—I think that
is what the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel
Huddleston) was saying. If we can get to the point where we
can try to mediate and solve problems rather than get into
litigation, with all the nastiness that brings, that is
where we want to be.
-
The hon. Gentleman is right. It is critical that we solve
these issues early on, before they get to court. We are
reviewing legal aid generally, but legal aid can be
available for mediation for early legal help. In that
context, there is a fees remission scheme in relation to
the application to court where the threshold is higher for
people over 60. However, would it not be better if people
did not go to court at all?
A number of issues have been raised and ideas put forward
about how we can improve the system. One, which was raised
by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire and by
the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), was about
the fact that grandparents have to apply for leave. Some
people see that as an additional hurdle, but experience
shows that grandparents do not usually experience any
difficulty in obtaining permission when their application
is motivated by a genuine concern for the interests of the
child. That is because a person can seek the court’s
permission at the same time as they make their substantive
application simply by ticking the box on the relevant form,
and there is no need to pay a separate fee. That can be
part and parcel of the hearing.
The leave requirement is not designed to be an obstacle to
grandparents or other family members; it is meant to be a
filter to sift out applications that are clearly not in a
child’s best interests, such as vexatious applications
aimed at undermining one of the parents involved in a
dispute over the child or continuing parental conflict.
Leave was examined as part of the independent family
justice review led by David Norgrove, which in its final
report, published in November 2011, recommended that the
requirement for grandparents to apply for leave should
remain as it is because it
“prevents hopeless or vexatious applications that are not
in the interests of the child.”
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire also
identified that it was unfortunate that sometimes children
were placed for adoption, despite the fact that a
grandparent might be willing to care for them. Grandparents
can apply for special guardianship orders, and the local
authority should give preference to placing a child with a
family member. He also identified, as picked up by my hon.
Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim
Loughton), that there should be a change in the law in
relation to presumption. We can look at that. He
identified, and it is important to recognise, that some
people think that elevates the grandparent’s involvement
into a right, whereas, as I have identified, the family
justice system puts the child, not the grandparent, at the
heart of its consideration. As he accepts, there may be
some unintended consequences that we will have to look
into.
-
The Minister is rightly highlighting the importance of the
child being at the centre. She also said that she is
willing to look at some issues again to avoid the
involvement of expensive lawyers—I pay all due respect to
lawyers; she is a distinguished lawyer herself. However,
will she indicate when we might see some of those proposals
and ideas come forward from the Ministry?
-
As a new Minister, I am looking afresh at a number of
issues. This point, which has been raised by many people,
is one of a number of family justice measures the
Department is looking at—this morning I had a meeting on
another family justice issue of concern. We are looking at
these matters very closely. The challenge is that one size
does not necessarily fit all. These are important issues
but, as I mentioned, we must also look at the out-of-court
settlement procedure. I will look at this issue carefully,
working with the Department for Education.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire said at
the end of his speech that he wanted to raise awareness. He
has done that in the past, and he has certainly done so by
calling the debate today. I commend him for his campaigning
efforts, and I am grateful to him for giving me the
opportunity to respond to this important debate on behalf
of the Ministry of Justice. Finally, I send Marc and Jane
Jackson every best wish on reuniting with their first
granddaughter.
5.25 pm
-
I thank the Minister for that response. Her tone is
appreciated across the whole House. I know that she is
diligent and that she is looking at a range of things, but I
would like this to be quite high on that pile. I am sure she
knows I will continue to hassle her until we get a response.
I appreciated several comments the Minister made, in
particular the recognition that the system could work better.
I recognise that family law is horrendously complex and that
therefore there are no easy answers. We will be very willing
to work with her and anybody else on ensuring that we look
very carefully for any unintended consequences, because we
all want to avoid those. We would all love to have a
situation where we did not have to have such debates, or to
have family breakdowns ending up in court, but the reality is
that it does happen, so we have to deal with it. As
parliamentarians, we need to ensure that we can help make the
processes as easy and painless as possible for all involved.
Finally, I thank many of those in the Public Gallery who are
here today, some of whom I know have travelled a considerable
distance to be here, and who include representatives from all
over the country. I thank them and I thank colleagues. I look
forward to making progress on the issue.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered grandchildren’s access right
to their grandparents.
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