Asked by Lord Dubs To ask Her Majesty’s Government what
further action they intend to take to reduce gender inequality in
pay. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of
Trafford) (Con) My Lords, the Prime Minister has made clear
that tackling injustices such as the gender pay gap is part of
building a country that works for everyone....Request free trial
Asked by
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further action they
intend to take to reduce gender inequality in pay.
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The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of
Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, the Prime Minister has made clear that tackling
injustices such as the gender pay gap is part of building a
country that works for everyone. In 2017 the Government
introduced ground-breaking regulations requiring large
employers to publish the differences between what they pay
their male and female staff in average salaries and
bonuses. Greater transparency will help to identify
barriers to achieving gender equality in the workplace so
that employers can take action to address them.
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(Lab)
I welcome the Minister’s reference to greater transparency.
Is it not time to be bold on this issue? If we are really
going to tackle such inequalities as the gender pay gap,
should we not do what is done in some Scandinavian
countries and put all income tax returns into the public
domain?
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My Lords, certainly Norway has done this. The unintended
consequence of doing so was that it was seen as a snooper’s
charter, a way for people to snoop into the information of
people that they did not like. I think publishing the
gender pay gap will give employees a greater sense of the
company that they are going to work for and whether there
is gender equality across pay, as opposed to a huge
database that cannot have the granular detail that the
gender pay gap reporting will have but can perhaps be used
with other intent from how it was designed.
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(LD)
My Lords, transparency is of course very important, and the
reporting of gender pay gaps by organisations and companies
is going to be valuable. However, what comes after that?
Once we know the disparity between pay in these
organisations, when can we expect the gender pay gap to be
closed, and when can women expect to reach pay parity with
men once we know what the problem is?
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The noble Baroness asks an interesting question about what
comes next. What will come next is that this will shine a
light on which companies take their gender pay obligations
seriously and which simply do not. If I were a graduate
going to a company with a huge gender pay gap, I would
start to think about what that company would mean for me as
a woman. I think it will draw into sharp focus those
companies that take their obligations seriously and shame
those companies and public sector organisations that do
not.
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(Con)
Will my noble friend undertake to look into the position at
the BBC, where sick pay and maternity leave are being
eradicated by the move to freelance contracts? Is that
right? Surely employers should not be able to sidestep
their employer obligations in such a radical fashion.
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I think what my noble friend refers to with sick pay—I am
going slightly beyond my brief here—is the practice whereby
people are not employees but freelance, more often than
not, for companies. Given the press reporting that there
has been on this, I am sure that this issue will be drawn
into sharp focus.
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(Lab
Co-op)
My Lords, what does the noble Baroness think needs to be
done on legislation on other matters to deal with this
issue? The Equal Pay Act came on to the statute book 47
years ago. The gender pay gap is 14.1% and there is little
evidence to suggest that it will close. I note what she
said about shining some light on these issues, but I am
conscious that with the statements under the Modern Slavery
Act, many companies had a light shone on their activities
but have done very little about the issue.
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My Lords, the full-time gender pay gap is 9.1%; I would
like it to be nought. The noble Lord talks about the Equal
Pay Act. Yes, it has been on the statute book for decades
now— 47 years. I recall as leader of a council that many
councils at the time had to sort out the issue of women
doing the same jobs for less money than men. I think most
local authorities have got to grips with that and, as I
say, I look forward to the day when the gender pay gap is
nought.
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(Lab)
My Lords, where does the Minister suggest that we look for
the next steps and action to be taken in those areas where
equal pay still does not exist? Returning to our backyard,
the public service—she just mentioned local government—is it
not true that there are still significant elements of unequal
pay within the Civil Service, the public service and local
government? This is an area where we have control. What do
the Government intend to do there?
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I am almost certain that most local authorities will have
settled equal pay claims with their employees—mine certainly
did. On what more is there to do on equal pay, if women think
that they are not being paid the same as men for the same
job, they are perfectly entitled to—and should—bring claims
forward.
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The (CB)
My Lords, when I joined the Civil Service in 1959 as a
clerical officer, we had equal pay, and I was horrified to
read that this no longer persists in Whitehall. Can the
Minister explain why, given that the Act came in in 1970, Her
Majesty’s Government and previous Governments have not done
something about it?
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As I explained, Her Majesty’s Government have done something
about it and encourage people who feel that they have equal
pay claims to come forward. That certainly happens at local
authority level, and in the Civil Service, we are looking
closely at and continue to monitor people whose pay is not
equal across the sexes.
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(Con)
My Lords, there are regional variations in gender pay, with
London women in particular earning about £15,000 less than
men. What action will the Government take once the audit is
issued in April to ensure that those variations are reduced?
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My Lords, we are encouraged by the number of companies that
have so far registered for gender pay gap data: 90% in the
public sector and 70% in the private sector. There are
remedies if companies have not complied. If London is seen to
have a particular problem then that will be thrown into focus
when the figures are published.
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(CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the issue is not so
much about the difference at the individual job level as
about the fact that, relatively speaking, so few women get to
senior positions in those organisations? That is where we
need to put the main emphasis, to help women to be confident
enough, and to be mentored and supported to get into the most
senior positions in those organisations.
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I totally agree with the noble Lord, which is why the
Government—through Women on Boards, moved by the noble Lord,
Lord —have managed to
increase the proportion of women on boards of the FTSE 100
from just over 10%, which was pitiful, to 28% now. I am
pleased to report that there are no FTSE 100 boards without
female representation. Of course, we have much further to go.
We need BME representation on boards, and women need to see
role models that encourage them to go for jobs for which they
are capable and to get to the top if they can.
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