Asked by Baroness Walmsley To ask Her Majesty’s Government,
in the light of the Grenfell Tower fire, what plans they have to
review their guidance Fire safety in new and existing school
buildings. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department
for Education (Lord Nash) (Con) My Lords, our thoughts and
prayers are with the relatives, friends...Request free trial
Asked by
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the
Grenfell Tower fire, what plans they have to review their
guidance Fire safety in new and existing school buildings.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Education (Lord Nash) (Con)
My Lords, our thoughts and prayers are with the relatives,
friends and families, and all those people affected by the
Grenfell tragedy. The department certainly has no plans to
introduce any changes to its guidance that would make fire
safety laws for schools less strict. Alongside the rest of
government, we will review and act appropriately on any
findings from the tragic events at Grenfell Tower. We are
undertaking an analysis of all school buildings to identify
any at a fire risk from cladding.
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(LD)
I thank the Minister for his reply and share his concerns
about the victims of Grenfell. Is he aware that last year
the London Fire Brigade did 184 school fire safety
consultations and that, despite it feeling that all new and
refurbished schools should have sprinklers fitted, only 2%
of such schools were fitted with them? This indicates that
the current guidance is not being followed. Given that
sprinklers can save lives and reduce the rising cost of
property damage, will the Government commit to making
sprinklers mandatory in new and refurbished schools and
producing up to date and robust information about the cost
of school fires in lives, cash and educational disruption?
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My Lords, all new schools must comply with fire safety
guidance before they are allowed to open and only in those
assessed as low risk are sprinklers not expected to be
installed. The number of fires in schools has halved in the
past 10 years. The department is not aware of the claims
that the noble Baroness makes. Our recent consultation
involved discussions with experts from across the fire
sector, including the Chief Fire Officers Association and
the London Fire Brigade. We would welcome any intelligence
that they or she have to offer in relation to this.
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(Lab)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the school
immediately adjacent to Grenfell Tower is the Kensington
Aldridge Academy. It has sprinklers installed, thanks to
the regulations that I pushed through when I was a
Minister, with the presumption that all new schools should
have fire sprinklers fitted. Has the Minister seen the
figures from the London Fire Brigade that show that, in the
nine years since those regulations came in, there have been
717 fires in schools in London and in only 15 of those
schools were sprinklers installed? I support what the noble
Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said. Now is the time to go
further than the regulations I agreed, to listen to the
London Fire Brigade and to make sprinklers mandatory in all
refurbishments as well as all new schools.
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I am fully aware of the situation in Kensington Aldridge
Academy, which is right next door to Grenfell Tower, and
that a number of its pupils have died. Of course we will
look at this further. We have not changed the regulations.
The regulations that the noble Lord introduced are still
extant. Although we thought they were absolutely on the
right lines, we thought that in some ways they were a
little long and potentially confusing. We have been
discussing some changes, but we have no intention of
changing those regulations and we would welcome discussions
with anybody about any further changes and improvements
they think are necessary.
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(Lab)
My Lords, with many other Peers of the realm, I sit on the
All-Party Group for Fire Safety and Rescue and sprinklers
and the Fire Brigades Union and so and so forth. I have to
tell the House that the most frustrating of meetings take
place because these people who are really keen on having
sprinklers all over the country, not in Scotland or Wales
but excluding England, are very frustrated that the
Government of the day are not acting accordingly.
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As I mentioned, the recent rather technical consultation we
had on the precise wording upset a few people who thought we
were reducing the expectation, which we certainly were not. I
thought I had pretty much reached an agreement the APPG on
this—but I am very happy to have further discussions.
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(LD)
My Lords, I am also a member of the APPG for Fire Safety and
Rescue, which I joined when I came into your Lordships’ House
because the primary school where I was chair of governors
burned down in 2004. Because one and a half classrooms
survived, it was deemed to be a refurbishment, and under the
guidance there was no requirement to increase the level of
safety to that required in new schools. The key thing for
both new and refurbished schools is that the Government’s
advice is advice—it is not statutory. Will the Minister
ensure that it becomes mandatory to have the highest standard
of safety protection, including sprinklers, in all schools,
new and refurbished?
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We would expect all schools to follow that guidance, but I
certainly will look at the point the noble Baroness makes.
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(Con)
I, too, am a member of the all-party fire group. Is it not
right that Members of this House and others who comment from
outside should now take a deep breath and hold back a little
and allow those who are competent in this world to tell us
what action is needed? These actions should flow from proper,
deep investigation—and hopefully we as a House will be told
as soon as possible what changes are to be made.
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My noble friend makes an extremely sensible suggestion. We
will have to wait on this, but the DCLG has set up an
independent expert advisory panel to advise the Government on
any immediate measures needed to make buildings safe. That
panel met for a full day last Thursday.
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(Lab)
My Lords, what discussions has the Minister or any of his
colleagues had with his counterparts in Scotland to exchange
experiences north and south of the border and advice? Here is
another sensible suggestion: if he has not had any meetings
so far, will he do so now?
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We have had conversations on this, particularly in relation
to recent events and to universities, but I will look more
closely to see whether there is more we can learn.
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(CB)
My Lords, closer to home, given the long delay to the
refurbishment of this building, is the Minister satisfied
about fire precautions in the Palace of Westminster?
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I do not think that I am qualified to answer that question.
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