The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr David
Davis) With permission, Mr Speaker, I will now make a
statement on the Government’s response to today’s judgment by the
Supreme Court. This Government are determined to deliver on
the decision taken by the people of the UK in the referendum
granted to them by this House to leave the EU, so we will
move...Request free trial
-
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr
David Davis)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I will now make a statement on
the Government’s response to today’s judgment by the
Supreme Court.
This Government are determined to deliver on the decision
taken by the people of the UK in the referendum granted to
them by this House to leave the EU, so we will move swiftly
to do just that. I can announce today that we will shortly
introduce legislation allowing the Government to move ahead
with invoking article 50, which starts the formal process
of withdrawing from the EU.
We received the lengthy 96-page judgment just a few hours
ago, and Government lawyers are assessing it carefully, but
this will be a straightforward Bill. It is not about
whether or not the UK should leave the EU. That decision
has already been made by the people of the UK. We will work
with colleagues in both Houses to ensure that this Bill is
passed in good time for us to invoke article 50 by the end
of March this year, as my right hon. Friend the Prime
Minister has set out. That timetable has already been
supported by this House.
Let me go through the issues step by step. The Government’s
priority following the European Union referendum has been
to respect the outcome and to ensure it is delivered in the
interests of the whole country. This House voted by six to
one to put the decision in the hands of voters, and that
Bill passed in the other place unopposed. So there can be
no going back: the point of no return was passed on 23 June
last year. The Government have always been clear that we
must leave by following the process set out in article 50
of the treaty on European Union. People want and expect us
to get on with implementing the decision that was made.
Let me now turn specifically to the process for invoking
article 50 and the issues that arise from today’s Supreme
Court judgment. The Government’s view, which we argued in
both the High Court and subsequently the Supreme Court, was
that it was constitutionally proper and lawful for the
Government to begin to give effect to the decision of the
people by the use of prerogative powers to invoke article
50. Today, the Supreme Court has agreed with the High
Court’s judgment that the prerogative power alone is
insufficient to give notice under article 50, and that
legislation is required to provide the necessary
authorisation for this step.
In addition, the Supreme Court considered the roles of the
devolved legislatures in the process of triggering article
50. On this, the Supreme Court ruled—and I quote from the
summary:
“Relations with the EU and other foreign affairs matters
are reserved to UK Government and parliament, not to the
devolved institutions.”
The summary goes on to say:
“The devolved legislatures do not have a veto on the UK’s
decision to withdraw from the EU.”
I will come back to our collaboration with the devolved
Administrations later in this statement.
The Government have been giving careful thought to the
steps that we would need to take in the event of the
Supreme Court upholding the High Court’s view. First, let
me be clear that we believe in and value the independence
of our judiciary, the foundation on which the rule of law
is built. So, of course, it goes without saying that we
will respect the judgment. Secondly, as I have already made
clear, the judgment does not change the fact that the UK
will be leaving the European Union, and it is our job to
deliver on the instruction that the people of the UK have
given us.
Thirdly, we will within days introduce legislation to give
the Government the legal power to trigger article 50 and
begin the formal process of withdrawal. It will be separate
from the great repeal Bill that will be introduced later
this year to repeal the European Communities Act 1972. It
will be the most straightforward Bill possible to give
effect to the decision of the people and respect the
Supreme Court’s judgment. The purpose of the Bill is simply
to give the Government the power to invoke article 50 and
begin the process of leaving the European Union. That is
what the British people voted for, and it is what they
would expect. Parliament will rightly scrutinise and debate
this legislation, but I trust that no one will seek to make
it a vehicle for attempts to thwart the will of the people
or to frustrate or delay the process of our exit from the
European Union.
Fourthly, our timetable for invoking article 50 by the end
of March still stands. That timetable has given valuable
certainty to citizens and businesses in the UK and across
Europe. It is understood by our European partners, and
provides a framework for planning the negotiation ahead.
This House itself backed the timetable by a majority of 373
in December, so we look forward to working closely with
colleagues in Parliament to ensure that the legislation on
article 50 is passed in good time to allow us to invoke it
by the end of March, as planned.
The Government’s fifth and final principle for responding
to this judgment is to continue to ensure that we deliver
an exit that is in the best interests of the whole of the
United Kingdom. The Supreme Court has ruled clearly in the
Government’s favour on the roles of the devolved
legislatures in invoking article 50. But while that
provides welcome clarity, it in no way diminishes our
commitment to work closely with the people and
Administrations of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as
we move forward with our withdrawal from the European
Union.
Let me conclude with a word on what today’s judgment means
for the UK and the nature of our democracy. I know that
this case, on an issue of such importance that arouses
strong views on all sides, has not been without
controversy, but the Court was asked a question, a proper,
thorough and independent process was gone through, and it
has given its answer in law. We are a law-abiding nation;
indeed, the UK is known the world over for the strength and
independence of its judicial system. We will build on this
and our many other strengths as we leave the European
Union. We will once again be a fully independent, sovereign
country, free to make our own decisions.
The Prime Minister has already set out a comprehensive
plan, including our core negotiating objectives. She has
been clear that we want a new, positive and constructive
partnership for the UK and the EU—a partnership that will
be good for the UK and for the rest of Europe.
Today, we are taking the necessary step to respect the
Supreme Court’s decision by announcing a Bill. It will be
up to this Parliament to respect the decision that it
entrusted to the people of the United Kingdom—a decision
that the people took on 23 June. I commend this statement
to the House.
12.39 pm
-
(Holborn and St Pancras)
(Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for early sight of his
statement. This is a good day for parliamentary
sovereignty, as the Supreme Court has ruled that we shall
have a say in this House on article 50. Given the issues
that are involved, that is quite right and the Prime
Minister was wrong to have attempted to sideline Parliament
in this process. This Bill is to be introduced only because
the Prime Minister has been ordered to do so. I hope that,
in the aftermath, there will not be the attacks on our
judges that there were when the High Court gave its ruling.
It is the duty of all of us to defend them if there are
such attacks, and to do so quickly. I hope that the
Secretary of State will join me in that endeavour.
The question now moves on to the proper role of Parliament.
The Supreme Court said nothing about the particular form of
legislation. On issues as important as this, it would be
wrong for the Government to try to minimise the role of
Parliament, or to seek to avoid amendments. I ask the
Secretary of State to confirm that he will not take that
approach.
This is a question of substance, not of process. Last week,
the Prime Minister committed herself to swapping the known
benefits of single market membership and the customs union
for the hoped-for benefits of a free trade agreement, with
a fall-back position of breaking our economic model. That
is high risk, and there are big gaps, inconsistencies and
unanswered questions in her approach.
If the Prime Minister fails in her endeavour, the cost will
be borne by families and working people and communities
throughout the UK. The stakes are high, and the role of
this House in holding the Prime Minister and the Government
to account throughout the process is crucial.
Labour accepts and respects the referendum result, and will
not frustrate the process, but we will be seeking to lay
amendments to ensure proper scrutiny and accountability
throughout the process. That starts with a White Paper or
plan—a speech is not a White Paper or plan. We need
something on which to hold the Government to account
throughout the process. We cannot have a speech as the only
basis for accountability for two years or more. That is the
first step. There needs to be a reporting-back procedure
and a meaningful vote at the end of the exercise. The
Government should welcome such scrutiny, and not try to
resist it, because the end result will be better if
scrutinised than it would otherwise be. I hope that the
Secretary of State will confirm that he will not seek to
minimise scrutiny and accountability.
I will leave it to others to talk about the devolved
Administrations, but whatever the Court ruled, it is
important that those interests are taken properly into
account.
I end with this: what a waste of time and money. The High
Court decision was 82 days ago. The Prime Minister could
have accepted then the need to introduce a Bill, and we
could have debated the issues. I would like the Secretary
of State to lay out what the cost to the taxpayer has been
of this appeal.
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Mr Davis
Let me say this to the hon. and learned Gentleman: the
Prime Minister was not aiming to sideline
democracy—[Interruption.]
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Mr Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman should resume his seat. The
House is in an understandably excited and excitable state.
What I want to say to colleagues is that they do not need
to look into the crystal ball when they can read the book.
Members should know by now that I always want to facilitate
the fullest possible questioning and scrutiny, and it is
right that that should happen, but it is also right that,
when the Secretary of State is responding to questions, he
is given a fair and courteous hearing.
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Mr Davis
The Prime Minister was aiming to carry out the will of the
people—all 17.4 million of them—in the national interest.
That was what she was doing. Let me pick up on the point
that the hon. and learned Gentleman quite properly raised:
the issue of our judges. I think that I mentioned at length
three times in my statement that this is a nation of the
rule of law, a nation to which the independence of the
judiciary is important, and a nation that is watched by
other countries as an example for themselves. Of all the
people he could criticise, I do not think that I am at the
front on this issue.
Similarly, on the parliamentary process, there has been an
interesting litany through this whole process over the past
six or seven months. Every time I get up, I say that I will
give the House as much information as possible subject to
not undermining the national interest or our negotiating
position. That is what we have done and that is what we
will continue to do—not just through this Bill, but through
the great repeal Bill, subsequent primary and secondary
legislation, and the final vote at the end, which we have
promised.
The hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned membership of the
single market, putting to one side of course that that
membership means giving up control of borders, laws and
rules, on all of which the Labour party is singularly
incapable of even making a decision let alone coming up
with a policy. He also talked about a plan. Last week, the
Prime Minister gave a 6,500-word, closely argued speech
that has been recognised across the country and around
Europe as the epitome of clarity with clear objectives,
aims and ambitions for this country, so I do not take that
point at all.
On scrutiny more generally, we have now had, I think, five
statements, 10 debates, and some 30 different Select
Committee inquiries. I hardly think that all that in six
months represents an absence of scrutiny of a central
Government policy. The hon. and learned Gentleman does not
often surprise me, but for the ex-Director of Public
Prosecutions to say that taking a matter to the Supreme
Court is a waste of time strikes me as quite extraordinary.
I have made this point several times over the past few
months: once the process has started, a reason for taking
it the full distance is to get the most authoritative and
clearest possible guidance on a major part of our
constitution. Yet again, the hon. and learned Gentleman has
not advanced the knowledge of the House very much, but I
look forward to the contributions of other Members.
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Mr (Rushcliffe)
(Con)
Has my right hon. Friend had the opportunity to note that
my recently published memoirs are cited with approval in
paragraph 195 of the judgment? Does he share my surprise
that that is a minority dissenting judgment?
More seriously, does my right hon. Friend accept that
parliamentary sovereignty has always meant that Governments
of the day pursue broad policy objectives in the national
interest and quite willingly submit them to the judgment of
the House, through both debates and votes, and that they
proceed with broad policy objectives only when they have
the support of a majority in the House of Commons? Will he
give me the Government’s assurance that the Bill will be
drafted on the basis that it improves opportunities for
Parliament to give or withhold its consent to major policy
objectives and that the Government will pursue that
approach in future years? Having one vote right at the end
of the process, when the House will be told that it either
takes the deal that the Government have or goes into the
alternative chaos of having no agreements with the EU or
anybody else, is not a good substitute for the normal
tradition of Parliament consenting to the policy aims of
the Government of the day.
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Mr Davis
My right hon. and learned Friend and I have been
skirmishing over this issue for, I think, some 30 years,
always with good humour, and I hope to respond to him in
the same vein today. He repeated that characterisation of
what the Government are proposing on television earlier
today, so let us look at it. As I said, we have already had
10 debates and vast numbers of other arguments, but this is
what is going to happen: first, we will have a Bill to
authorise the triggering of article 50; then we will have a
great repeal Bill whereby we go through the entire corpus
of European law as it applies to the United Kingdom, which
I should think will go on for a considerable amount of
time; and then we will have primary legislation on major
policy changes and secondary legislation, all put before
both Houses. There will not be just one vote. At the end of
the process, we will have the vote that eventually decides
whether or not the House supports the policy we propose.
Let me make it plain: that policy will be aimed solely at
advancing the interest of the United Kingdom—getting the
best possible negotiated outcome that we can achieve,
having taken on board the informing debate of this House of
Commons throughout the entire two years running up to it.
-
(North East Fife)
(SNP)
First, I welcome the judgment and anything that strengthens
parliamentary scrutiny of this process. There was a time,
back in the dim and distant past, when the Secretary of
State was a great champion of parliamentary scrutiny, so I
am sure that, deep down inside, he welcomes the judgment as
well.
I wonder why the Government fear parliamentary scrutiny. Is
it because they might be found out? Is it because we will
find out that the emperor in these circumstances has no
clothes? They talk of democracy, but I gently remind the
Secretary of State that in Scotland at the general
election, the Conservatives got their worst result since
1865. They have one MP.
We are told today that this is a political decision, and as
a political decision on the role of the devolved
Administrations, I hope that this Parliament and this
Government will continue not to legislate on areas that are
the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament without its
consent. Today’s judgment said that this process should
enhance devolution. If that is the case, will the Secretary
of State tell us today that no powers will be returned from
the Scottish Parliament to Westminster during the course of
this process, and will he seek consent from the Scottish
Parliament before legislating in areas over which it has
responsibility?
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Mr Davis
Again, I am surprised. I would have thought that, of all
people, the Scottish National party would attach great
importance to the results of elections to the Scottish
Parliament, in which last time the Scottish Conservative
party came second under the estimable .
To the main point of the hon. Gentleman’s question, I want
to make two responses. First, the process we have gone
through with all the devolved Administrations—the joint
ministerial process—has been going on for some months now,
and at the very last monthly meeting we had a presentation
from Mike Russell, the Scottish Government Minister, on the
Scottish Government’s proposals. We disagreed with some and
agreed with some absolutely—for example on the protection
of employment law—and some we will debate in the coming
weeks and months, most particularly on the point the hon.
Gentleman raised: the question of devolution and devolved
powers.
The hon. Gentleman knows that I am a devolutionist. I can
say to him firmly that no powers existing in the devolved
Administrations will come back, but there will be powers
coming from the European Union and we will have to decide
where they most properly land, whether that is Westminster,
Holyrood or wherever. The real issue there is the practical
interests of all the nations of the United Kingdom—for
example, preserving the single market of the United Kingdom
and the United Kingdom’s ability to do international deals.
There is a series of matters that are just as important to
ordinary Scot as they are to the ordinary English, Welsh or
Northern Irish citizen, and that is what we will protect.
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Mr (Chingford and
Woodford Green) (Con)
The very fact that this was a split judgment shows that our
right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was absolutely right
to take the case all the way to get a full decision. I ask
the Secretary of State to resist our right hon. and learned
Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) and not to
overcomplicate this matter. After all, the question is:
should the Government trigger article 50? I urge the
Secretary of State, when he brings the Bill to Parliament,
to keep it short, to keep it simple and, most of all, to
keep it swift?
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Mr Davis
Well, we will certainly keep it straightforward. My right
hon. Friend is right: this was—is—a unique circumstance in
many ways. It is unique in terms of the importance to the
United Kingdom, but also unique in the fact that it is
carrying out the will of 17.5 million people who voted
directly—something that has never happened before in our
history—so it was important to take the matter to the
Supreme Court to get the full judgment. I give him this
undertaking: I will do everything in my power to make sure
that the measure goes through swiftly, and that while it is
properly scrutinised, it is a simple and straightforward
Bill that delivers the triggering of article 50 by 31
March.
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(Leeds Central)
(Lab)
Having argued in court that Parliament should not decide on
the triggering of article 50 and lost, will the Secretary
of State accept the unanimous recommendation of the Select
Committee on Exiting the European Union—and in the process
agree with himself before he got his present job—and now
publish a White Paper on the Government’s objectives so
that they can be considered alongside the legislation that
he has just announced? If the Government do not do so, they
will be showing a lack of respect for this House of
Commons.
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Mr Davis
I do not often disagree with myself, but let me say this to
the right hon. Gentleman: the speech given last week by the
Prime Minister was the clearest exposition of a negotiating
strategy that I have heard in modern times. It laid out
clearly what we judge the national interest to be and how
we intend to protect it, what we want to do, and what we
hope does not happen and how we will avoid that. I do not
see that this Government have avoided answering any
question, whether from his Committee or from Opposition
Front Benchers. The only questions that we have been unable
to answer are those that it would be to the disadvantage of
the country to answer, because that would undermine our
negotiating strategy.
Let me give the right hon. Gentleman one example. A couple
of weeks ago, my opponent, as it were, the hon. and learned
Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), said on
Channel 4, “What we want to know is whether the Government
will pay for access to the single market and how much
they’ll pay.” If anything would undermine the negotiating
position, that would. It is precisely that sort of thing
that we are going to avoid. We will continue to give
information to the House. I gave the Brexit Committee an
undertaking that we will give at least as much information
as will go to the European Parliament—indeed more, I think.
We will continue to keep the House informed throughout the
entire process, which is not going to be over in a few
weeks—it will last two years—and the House will be as well
informed as it has been on any matter of such importance.
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Sir (Stone) (Con)
The Supreme Court this morning ruled that the form of the
Bill is
“entirely a matter for Parliament.”
The judgment also indicated that the issues before the
Supreme Court have nothing to do with the
“political…merits of the decision to withdraw, the
timetable and terms of so doing, or…any future relationship
between the UK and the EU.”
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, in relation to any
potential amendments, the Bill itself will be short and
tightly drawn to give effect exclusively to the Supreme
Court decision?
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Mr Davis
The short answer is yes. My hon. Friend cites paragraph 122
of the decision and the Court’s commentary. The purpose of
the Bill is to meet the requirements of the Supreme Court
to deliver the instruction from the nation at large and to
do so in the national interest. That entails a
straightforward, easily comprehensible Bill so that the
country at large can see what Parliament is doing and what
decision it is visiting on the Government.
-
(Normanton, Pontefract
and Castleford) (Lab)
I agree with the Secretary of State that Parliament must
respect the result of the referendum, but I hope that he
agrees that the Government do not have a blank cheque from
either Parliament or the public on what kind of Brexit they
now pursue. He says that there will be votes in the
process. Given that the Government have said they are
ruling out being in the customs union, the common external
tariff and the common commercial policy, and that, as he
knows, there are strongly held views on different sides
about the impact that that will have on our manufacturing
industry, which will be crucial to our future, can the
right hon. Gentleman say when he will give Parliament a
vote on that decision?
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Mr Davis
I would say a couple of things to the right hon. Lady.
First, we are asked on the one hand to tell the House what
our plan is, and then we are told, “Oh, but we don’t like
that, so we want a debate or a White Paper”—[Interruption.]
No, it is fine; I perfectly understand the argument. The
simple truth is that there will be any number of votes—too
many to count—in the next two years across a whole range of
issues. For example, I can see the sort of issue she is
raising coming up in the great repeal Bill, in subsequent
primary legislation, and perhaps even in subsequent major
secondary legislation as well. I am quite sure there will
be a number of votes on that subject in the next two years.
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(Wokingham) (Con)
If someone votes against sending the article 50 letter, are
they not voting against restoring the very parliamentary
sovereignty that they call in aid? Do not the British
people want a proper Parliament, rather than a puppet
Parliament answering to Brussels, and does that not require
sending the letter soon?
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Mr Davis
What it requires is leaving the European Union, and that is
what we are going to do.
-
(Vauxhall) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State accept my view that the public
want us to get on with this and actually carry out what
they voted for? Does he also accept that while they will
not look lightly on amendments that are tabled,
particularly by parties that actually want another
referendum, to delay things unnecessarily, they do perhaps
want amendments that clarify the situation and make us all
more aware of the Government’s intentions?
-
Mr Davis
The hon. Lady, as ever, goes right to the heart of the
matter. The public will not view well attempts to thwart,
delay or confuse this process. They will view well attempts
to elucidate what is going on, to promote the national
interest, to help the negotiating position and so on, and
that is entirely what the Government are going to do.
-
(Broxtowe) (Con)
There is a genuine desire, I believe, for people to come
together, to support the Government, to build a consensus
and to get the best deal possible. The reality is that we
have abandoned the single market and the free movement of
people without any debate in this place, never mind a vote.
-
Mr (Harwich and North
Essex) (Con)
We had a referendum.
-
Well, there was one question on the paper: leave or remain.
We are leaving the European Union—that is accepted.
I take my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State as a man
of his word. When I voted for the two-part motion in
December, I did not agree with triggering article 50 at the
end of March, but I voted for the motion in the spirit that
we would have a plan—I would like a White Paper—that we
could debate. That would bring us together. What does my
right hon. Friend have to lose by having a debate on a
White Paper?
-
Mr Davis
Let me say this to my right hon. Friend, who passionately
holds a well-formed view on these matters. First, in terms
of bringing people together, a large part of the Prime
Minister’s speech was aimed at creating a sense of this
country that everybody can get behind, ranging from the
protection of employment rights through to our role in the
world, all of which is very important. Secondly, the Prime
Minister laid out an incredibly clear future and a future
approach for us, so I think that she did everything one
could ask of a Prime Minister to deliver on our
undertakings.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry)
talks about things that were not on the ballot paper. What
was on the ballot paper was leaving the European Union. I
am afraid that it is very difficult to see how we can leave
the European Union and still stay inside the single market,
with all the commitments that go with that. What we have
come up with—I hope to persuade her that this is a very
worthwhile aim—is the idea of a comprehensive free trade
agreement and a comprehensive customs agreement that will
deliver the exact same benefits as we have, but also enable
my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for
International Trade to go and form trade deals with the
rest of the world, which is the real upside of leaving the
European Union.
-
Mr (Wolverhampton South
East) (Lab)
Last week in her speech, the Prime Minister said:
“the Government will put the final deal that is agreed
between the UK and the EU to a vote in both Houses of
Parliament, before it comes into force.”
The article 50 negotiation is not the final deal—the final
deal is the future trading agreement between the UK and the
EU—so can the Secretary of State confirm that Parliament
will get a vote on both the article 50 agreement and, as
the Prime Minister said, the final deal? What will happen
if Parliament says no to the terms of either of those
agreements?
-
Mr Davis
The answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s overall question
is yes—we are standing by both those votes and we will
continue to do so. But I reiterate again that the point is
that they will not be the only votes; there will be a large
number of other votes in between. Labour Members can ignore
it till the cows come home, but the simple truth is that
they are going to have many, many, many votes on many
different policy areas after extensive debate on primary
legislation. So the answer is that Parliament will have a
great influence on this process, and it will have the final
say. That is democracy in action.
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Mr (North Shropshire)
(Con)
Further to that last reply, my right hon. Friend has given
us admirable clarity on article 50 and the timetable. Could
he give us a little more information on his current
thoughts about the timetable for the great repeal Bill?
-
Mr Davis
That Bill will be in the Queen’s Speech, it will be
presented to the House very soon thereafter and I expect it
to be debated extensively. I think that it will be the
centrepiece and the start of a major debate about the
nature of this country and the future, so it is important
to get it in front of the House very early.
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(Brighton, Pavilion)
(Green)
The final vote offered by the Government on the negotiated
package will not be meaningful unless they also guarantee
that, if there is a vote against the withdrawal treaty, we
will have an option to continue talks with the EU for a
better deal, rather than simply falling out with no deal at
all. Can the Secretary of State guarantee that we will have
that vote in time for such further discussion to happen?
-
Mr Davis
That is of a piece with those arguments that say that we
want to have a second referendum so that we can revisit
this. What it does is to give a prize to somebody who is
trying to put up the worst possible negotiation for us.
There are plenty of members of the European Union that want
to force us into changing our mind and going back inside,
and we do not want to do anything that allows or encourages
that to happen. The hon. Lady is not right to say that the
vote is meaningless; for a start, the Select Committee and
the Opposition both asked for it. In addition, it will be—I
repeat this again—the last of many, many, many votes and
debates on major legislation.
-
(New Forest East)
(Con)
Hard Brexit means saying that one is going to leave the
European Union and actually doing it. Soft Brexit means
saying that one is going to leave the European Union and
remaining in all but name. Which course do the Government
intend to follow?
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Mr Davis
In his younger days, my right hon. Friend was an expert in
Soviet propaganda. I am afraid that I view “hard Brexit”
and “soft Brexit” as terms of propaganda.
-
(Wolverhampton North
East) (Lab)
Can the Secretary of State guarantee that this House will
have the ability to scrutinise and vote on the agreement
between the UK and the EU27 at the same time that that
agreement is put before the European Parliament?
-
Mr Davis
I repeat again that the House will have that opportunity
over and over and over again, on a whole series of primary
legislation and secondary legislation and, finally, with
the vote itself. I have not given a great deal of thought
to how the timing of that will coincide with the European
Parliament, but I will do so and write to the hon. Lady.
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Mr (Beaconsfield)
(Con)
My right hon. Friend will be aware that in the course of
the court case the Government laid great stress on the
irrevocability, in their opinion, of article 50. In those
circumstances, I am sure he can understand that the problem
facing the House is that in triggering article 50, that
irrevocability has to be matched against the excellent
words of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in setting
out a plan that envisages a future relationship with the
European Union from outside of it. Will he therefore keep
in mind that the debate on article 50 is likely to be
greatly facilitated if the ideas expressed by the Prime
Minister are put into a White Paper, or similar document,
to which reference can be made in the triggering of article
50, without fettering the Government’s discretion in their
negotiations thereafter, because ultimately, as he may
agree, this comes down to an issue of trust? If the
Government can build that trust, they will greatly
facilitate their task, and, if I may say so, those such as
myself who wish to help them in what they are trying to
achieve.
-
Mr Davis
My right hon. and learned Friend—my old friend—tempts me
down a certain route, but I will answer him in these terms.
In the case, the argument put by the Government did not
depend on the irrevocability or otherwise of the legal
issue in front of us; it depended on the fact that we view
the irrevocable moment as being 23 June last year, and that
it is not in the gift of the Government to change their
mind, so we have already passed the point of no return. In
terms of information, I have said over and over again that
I will provide what information I can, and as much
information as I can, without undermining our negotiating
position, and I will continue to do so throughout the
article 50 process and beyond.
-
Ms (Birmingham, Edgbaston)
(Lab)
We all know that negotiations are two-way processes, and we
accept that our European partners may not be able to agree
on anything until the German and French elections are out
of the way. In the meantime, however, there is a logic to
why article 50 should be triggered by the end of March. It
has to do with a two-year process, so that by the time of
the next European elections we will have completed the
process. It is important to remind not just colleagues in
this House but probably colleagues in the other House that
there is a logic to an end of March date.
-
Mr Davis
The right hon. Lady, as ever, gets to the point of the
matter. There are many reasons for triggering by the end of
March. There are the rather obvious ones: the public want
us to get on with it, and that includes remainers as well
as leavers in terms of the original vote. There are
practical reasons of business uncertainty: the longer we
spin this out, the more difficult it is for businesses and
workers in terms of their own futures. She is also right
that it fits very neatly, as a sort of sweet spot, into
delivering an outcome that is in our interests within the
European timetable. The House should understand that there
are roughly 15 elections between now and the end of the
process, and then there is the European parliamentary
election, which, if we get too close to it, could
compromise the vote at the end. There is a whole series of
reasons why the end of March is incredibly important. It is
not an arbitrary date—it is designed to uphold the strength
of the negotiations, so she is right on the nail.
-
(North East
Bedfordshire) (Con)
As one who campaigned to remain in the European Union, I
welcome the decision of the Court today, which gives me the
opportunity to say that I accept the result of the
referendum and I will vote for the Bill triggering article
50. Let me also say, at the risk of repetition, that it
would help still further the authority of the House, and
the authority with which the Prime Minister goes into the
negotiations, if the Secretary of State would take on board
the unanimous view of the Select Committee, and the view
expressed by the Chairman of the Select Committee and
others, that the way in which the Prime Minister set out
the plan, with her clarity of expression, is only enhanced,
and the work of the House, which is endorsed by the Supreme
Court judgment, is equally enhanced by the publication of a
White Paper, with the opportunity to debate and cover a
number of things that the Bill cannot itself cover.
-
Mr Davis
I thank my right hon. Friend for the tone of his question,
which is a very good question. The issue here is not
information. I have said over and over again that I will
provide as much information as is consistent with the
House’s previous motions on this, while not undermining our
negotiating position, and that is what we will do. We will
provide as much information as possible, but people should
bear in mind that the article 50 Bill is going to be
presented quite quickly to the House, so we do not have a
great deal of time either.
-
(Liverpool, Wavertree)
(Lab/Co-op)
Today’s Supreme Court ruling is a victory for transparency
and openness, but a half-hour speech by the Prime Minister
outside this House, with a couple of questions for the
media, is no substitute for parliamentary scrutiny. Will
the Secretary of State please take on board the views of
Members in all parts of this House and bring forward a
White Paper, which will unite this House in order to forge
a way forward?
-
Mr Davis
I have been at this Dispatch Box, on statements alone, five
times in the past five months, and I am at great risk of
boring the House. I will just repeat to the hon. Lady what
I have said already: we will deliver the maximum possible
information and the maximum possible debate.
-
(Loughborough)
(Con)
This House should be grateful to both the Supreme Court and
the High Court for asserting parliamentary sovereignty and
allowing us to have a say on the article 50 process. I
agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for North East
Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), who has said that he will
vote in favour of article 50—I will too. In the spirit of
the question by my right hon. Friend the Member for
Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), who called
for a swift passage of the Bill—I agree with him—does the
Secretary of State agree that when the House voted for the
motion in December, it was not just in relation to the 31
March deadline but in relation to the publication of a
plan? I would suggest to him that the passage of the Bill
will be swifter if a White Paper is published and debates
happen on that, too, and the article 50 process is
separate.
-
Mr Davis
I hear what my right hon. Friend says. I am becoming very
boring in reiterating the same point—that we will provide
as much information as we possibly can, subject to not
undermining our position.
-
Mr (Na h-Eileanan
an Iar) (SNP)
In 2014 in Scotland, we were told we were a powerhouse
Parliament and an equal Parliament in the UK. We know from
this morning that we are not the equal of Wallonia and
Belgium, and we will not be consulted on Brexit. With the
turbo-charged cowardice of the leader of the Labour party,
it is clear that Scotland will now be taken out against our
will. As the UK Government pursue Brexit, Scotland must
take the opportunity of an independence referendum.
Meantime, as the Scottish Parliament is not being
consulted, will at least the views of Scottish Members of
Parliament in this House be taken into account and
respected?
-
Mr Davis
My answer to the hon. Gentleman—another old friend—is, “Of
course.” I have spent a very great deal of time speaking
directly to the Scottish Government, and the Welsh
Government and the Northern Irish Executive too. I consider
it incredibly important that in this process we protect the
interests of the people he represents—the people of
Scotland—in this negotiation.
-
(Reigate) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to giving as
much information as he can to the House and its Committees.
Given that, could he explain why the Government are not
providing any evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee’s
inquiry into the practical consequences of leaving the
European Union after two years with no agreement in
place—an outcome that is a distinct possibility, and one
over which the Government cannot command the outcome?
Surely it would be best for the country and for every
single company in the land that will be affected by this to
understand the consequences as clearly as possible, so that
they can plan for it.
-
Mr Davis
As I said, we will provide as much information as we can.
However, this is a question of a negotiation, and we do not
know where the end game will be. Even the rather stark
example that my hon. Friend cites might have different
aspects. He is presumably talking about the trade aspect,
but there is also, for example, justice and home affairs.
There are so many different things to assess that it would
be, frankly, nothing more than an exercise in guesswork at
this stage.
-
Ms (Wallasey) (Lab)
Today the Government have been humiliated in the Supreme
Court. They have been taught a lesson about the real
meaning of parliamentary sovereignty and taking back
control. Will the Secretary of State now accept this
verdict in the spirit, as well as the letter, of the ruling
and finally concede that this House needs votes along the
way, not simply debates without votes, and proper
parliamentary scrutiny so that together, working across
this House, we can bring the country to the best possible
deal in the interests of all our areas up and down this
country?
-
Mr Davis
I will say two things. First, I really recommend that the
hon. Lady reads the judgment, rather than trying to
interpret it or put her own blush on it. Read the detail of
it. It is a very good judgment and a very sound judgment,
as I said in my opening statement. As for giving continual
votes and continuous information, I have been saying that
all day today.
-
(Gainsborough)
(Con)
The Bill should be brief and the outcome simple; that is a
point of principle. Is the Secretary of State aware that if
the Opposition parties combine to constrain the
Government’s negotiating hand—for instance by insisting on
staying in the single market, which would mean effectively
remaining in the EU—many of us believe that we should have
an immediate general election and put the matter to the
people? That might concentrate the minds of those in the
Labour party.
-
Mr Davis
My hon. Friend is asking me a question that is way above my
pay grade, to say the least, and the person whose pay grade
it is has left. The point I would make to my hon. Friend is
this. I would hope that every Member of this House would
see it as their duty to their constituents to deliver the
best outcome. That is precisely what the Government’s
strategy is—to deliver the best outcome for Britain in this
negotiation.
-
(East Antrim)
(DUP)
I am pleased that the case that was presented to hand a
veto to the Northern Ireland Assembly—a blatant attempt to
overturn the result of the referendum—has failed. Could the
Secretary of State tell us, now that the Northern Ireland
Assembly has been collapsed by Sinn Féin, what arrangements
there will be to have the issues that concern Northern
Ireland raised prior to negotiations and during
negotiations?
-
Mr Davis
With respect to the hon. Gentleman’s first point, it is
notable that whilst there was an 8:3 judgment on the rest
of the issue, the Court was unanimous on not allowing the
Northern Ireland Executive a veto. In terms of maintaining,
not so much a relationship but an understanding of the
issues that relate to Northern Ireland, last week when we
had a Joint Ministerial Committee I wrote to the Northern
Ireland Executive to ask them to continue to send Ministers
to represent the interests of Northern Ireland. Although
the First Minister and Deputy First Minister disappear, as
it were, in the interim, Ministers stay in post, just as in
any other Administration. Last week, they did turn up, and
I will continue to extend an invitation to that end. If
that does not work, we will find some other bilateral way
to proceed. The hon. Gentleman must take it as read: I view
it as near the top of my priorities, if not actually my top
priority, to preserve the situation in Northern Ireland, to
preserve the border in its current state without hardening
it, and to preserve the interests of the Northern Irish
people.
-
Mr (Wellingborough)
(Con)
No Bill that goes through parliamentary scrutiny does not
become, as a result, a better Act of Parliament. Could the
Secretary of State announce when we will get a business
statement, so that we know the timetable for the proposed
Bill? I hope that we will have a day for Second Reading. I
urge him to say that ample time will be given to the
Committee stage, so that the House can properly scrutinise
the Bill before it goes to the Lords.
-
Mr Davis
On my hon. Friend’s last point, that would certainly be my
intention. On the first point, there will be a business
statement on Thursday anyway. Bear in mind that we are
talking about a 96-page judgment. The point, as I have said
before, of going right to the Supreme Court was to ensure
that we got an authoritative, detailed final judgment on
what we need to do and how we need to do it, and we need to
study it carefully. That will take a little bit of time,
but not very much, and we will come back to the House as
soon as possible thereafter. It is entirely possible that
Thursday’s business statement may cover that.
-
(Wirral South)
(Lab)
The Secretary of State keeps talking about certainty, but
given the Prime Minister’s statement specifically on the
customs union, my constituents working in the manufacturing
supply chain have nothing but uncertainty about their jobs.
So what exactly is wrong with the suggestion made by the
right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke)
that the Government bring forward their policy on Brexit
for a vote in this House?
-
Mr Davis
The hon. Lady talks about certainty. A two-year negotiation
is going to take place, and there is nothing we can or
should do to collapse that. That means that there is a
limit to the extent to which we can introduce certainty. By
the way, I had not mentioned it until then in this
discussion. There will be debate after debate. On article
50, there will be debate on the policy. On the great repeal
Bill, there will be debate on the policy. In several
subsequent pieces of primary legislation, there will be
debate on the policy. There will be no shortage of debate
or votes.
-
Sir (New Forest West)
(Con)
Any obligation placed on the Government’s negotiating
position during the passage of the Bill may subsequently be
subject to judicial review, with consequent delay. I hope
that my right hon. Friend will judge the intentions that
have been announced to amend the Bill in that light.
-
Mr Davis
As my right hon. Friend knows, I view everybody with great
charity and generosity, and I will continue to do so.
-
(Bishop Auckland)
(Lab)
Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for
Wellingborough (Mr Bone), when the Labour Government
legislated for the Lisbon treaty, Parliament had 25 days,
including 11 days in Committee of the whole House, to
debate it. There are 66 days before 31 March. How many days
is the Secretary of State planning to give us?
-
Mr Davis
I will say two things. First, was it not the Lisbon treaty
on which Labour promised a referendum, which we never got?
Selling a false bill of goods is not a very good example to
Parliaments around the world. This is article 50. This is
the triggering process only —nothing more than the
triggering process. There will be vast quantities of
legislation—much more than on the Lisbon treaty—between now
and the conclusion.
-
Mr (North East
Somerset) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend noticed that those who now wail
parliamentary sovereignty mean the yoke of Brussels; when
they say scrutiny, they mean delay; and when they say
respect, they mean condescension? Does he agree with me
that the British people have voted and we must legislate?
-
Mr Davis
As ever, my hon. Friend speaks for England.
-
(Carshalton and Wallington)
(LD)
We are all trying to get the best deal for our
constituents. That is why the Liberal Democrats will seek
to amend the article 50 Bill to give people their first say
on the terms of the UK’s future relationship with the
European Union, and on Government plans to crash out of the
single market and the customs union, inflicting huge damage
on families and businesses up and down the country. Why do
the Government not take this opportunity to boost their
democratic credentials and simply agree to such a popular
vote?
-
Mr Davis
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to exercise his brain
on this matter. The consequence of putting a second
referendum at the end of the negotiation is to invite every
single member of the European Union who does not want us to
leave to propose the worst possible deal, in the hope that
we would change our mind. We are not going to do that.
-
Mr (Wycombe) (Con)
Today we uphold the rule of law by respecting the Supreme
Court judgment. Does my right hon. Friend agree that both
Houses of Parliament must now respect the result of the
referendum by swiftly passing into law this necessary Act?
-
Mr Davis
My hon. Friend is as right as ever.
-
(Nottingham East)
(Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State can see the phenomenal interest in
the House in this issue, and he should not be afraid of
scrutiny. My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland
(Helen Goodman) asked how many days he would commit to
proper scrutiny on the Floor of the House of all the issues
surrounding article 50. Can he accept that this Bill is
more important than the Bills on the Lisbon treaty and the
Maastricht treaty, and that any attempt to curtail the
opportunities for this House to scrutinise the issues would
betray the Government’s fear of proper debate?
-
Mr Davis
Let me say two things to the hon. Gentleman. I do not think
that I have ever run away from scrutiny. I have spent more
time at the Dispatch Box than any other Secretary of State
in the last five months. In terms of what he says about the
importance of the Bill, of course it is important, and
indeed I want as much time as we can possibly get for it to
be discussed; but that is a matter, as I said, for the
usual channels to discuss.
Many people who see the Bill as incredibly
important—perhaps more than it really is—are seeing it as
some sort of point of no return. The point of no return was
passed on 23 June last year. This is simply carrying out
the instructions of the British people. We will do so under
the full scrutiny of Parliament and under the authorisation
of Parliament, and we will give time for that; but do not
conflate that with the whole process of the negotiation. It
will take much, much more time than was given to Lisbon,
because that number of pieces of primary legislation will
take more time.
-
Mrs (St Albans)
(Con)
The right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom
Brake) talked about our democracy—in fact, he is the only
representative of his political party in the Chamber—but
would it be very undemocratic, in my right hon. Friend’s
opinion, for him to go down to the House of Lords and
encourage 120 unelected Members of the House of Lords to
play ping-pong and mess about with the Bill? We must
deliver what the British people have asked for.
-
Mr Davis
I think the British public will be looking at both Houses
and expecting them to do their democratic duty properly,
which means not to thwart the Bill or delay it
unnecessarily, but to undertake a proper process of
scrutiny and then to deliver on the will of the people.
-
(North Down)
(Ind)
The Supreme Court has ruled very clearly today that the
devolved legislatures do not have legislative competence
and capacity in relation to the United Kingdom leaving the
European Union. Therefore, it must follow logically that
the procedure called EVEL, but known by its long title as
English votes for English laws, should not be applicable
when we come to the great repeal Bill. EVEL as a procedure
is deeply divisive in this House, and it is demeaning to
Members who represent Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Given that the Secretary of State has said—and I believe
him—that every effort will be made by this Government to
hold together the United Kingdom, it would be helpful if
the Brexit Secretary clearly ruled out the use of EVEL on
the great repeal Bill?
-
Mr Davis
I cannot off the top of my head think of a circumstance in
which EVEL would apply, but it might do so. The point I
would make to the hon. Lady is that that rests on a ruling
by the Speaker, not by a Secretary of State.
-
Mr (Huntingdon)
(Con)
Will triggering article 50 be adequate to release us from
other related treaty obligations under the 1972 Act, such
as our membership of the European economic area?
-
Mr Davis
That is a debatable matter of law. I think that that is the
accurate answer. Subsequent matters may arise after the
triggering of article 50, but if so, we will come back to
the House.
-
(Rhondda) (Lab)
There is no reason why the Government should not get their
Bill through all the proper stages in this House and in the
other House by the end of March. When the business managers
come knocking and say, “We should condense the processes
and have several different stages on the same day”, may I
urge the “old” Member who flourished for 20 years on the
Back Benches to return and fight hard for this House,
saying, “We will do the process properly”?
-
Mr Davis
I will thank the hon. Gentleman not to refer to me as the
“old Member”. I will of course ensure that there is proper
scrutiny.
-
Mr Speaker
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has another
birthday until December—I think his birthday is 23
December—so he has a long time to wait: nothing to worry
about.
-
(Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
Today, British judges in the highest court in the land
decided a point of historic constitutional importance that
is unprecedented in law. It was right to seek the judgment
of the Supreme Court to enable them to “discover” the law,
as we lawyers euphemistically call it. Crucially, the
Supreme Court recognised the limits of its constitutional
powers when it left the form of that legislation to this
Parliament. Is this not our constitution thriving in
action, and does it not bode well for the future?
-
Mr Davis
My hon. Friend is exactly right. Her question goes to the
point that I have made previously at the Dispatch Box which
is that that is why we took the case all the way to the
Supreme Court. By the way, it was not just about the role
of the House of Commons on article 50; it was also, of
course, about the role of the devolved Administrations,
which had in any event to go to the Supreme Court.
-
Mr (Walsall North)
(Lab)
Is the Secretary of State aware that many of us warmly
congratulate the judges in the Supreme Court and the High
Court on upholding parliamentary sovereignty, which the
Government to a large extent tried to bypass in triggering
article 50? The judges are not the enemies of the people,
but the defenders of parliamentary democracy.
-
Mr Davis
If the hon. Gentleman goes back through this old Member’s
extensive experience, I do not think he will find that I
have ever referred to the judges as the enemies of the
people—just the converse. It is occasionally embarrassing
to me that I sometimes use them.
-
Mr (Esher and Walton)
(Con)
I welcome the statement by the Secretary of State. I also
welcome paragraph 122 of the Supreme Court ruling, which
narrows the scope of the rather opaque High Court ruling
and allows us to pass a short, sharp Bill to trigger
article 50. Does he agree that it is the responsibility of
every democrat in both Houses to give effect to the will of
the British people by passing the Bill without delay?
-
Mr Davis
I agree with my hon. Friend. For my part, I will endeavour
to make the Bill as straightforward and as comprehensible
as possible. I say that not just for speed, but because the
public will be watching us. The public will want to know
what we are voting on and to be able to understand it, so
nothing will be opaque. We will aim to present a
straightforward, simple Bill that we will take through as
fast as is consistent with proper scrutiny.
-
(Livingston)
(SNP)
Paragraph 151 of the Supreme Court ruling says:
“The Sewel Convention has an important role in facilitating
harmonious relationships between the UK Parliament and the
devolved legislatures.”
What will the Secretary of State do to ensure that there is
a harmonious relationship? Does he agree with the ruling,
and will he produce a White Paper, as the SNP has proposed,
and actually write something down, which he did not do
ahead of the EU referendum?
-
Mr Davis
If I remember correctly, that section ends with the phrase,
“nobody has a veto”—no devolved Administration has a veto.
In terms of involving and looking after or trying to help
assist the interests of the devolved Administrations and
the people they represent, we have a whole process in place
with the Joint Ministerial Committee, which does nothing
but consider these matters. It considers the interests of
the nations of the United Kingdom to ensure that none of
their special interests, none of their special political
situations and none of their special economic situations is
harmed in any way.
-
Mr (Christchurch)
(Con)
There have been a couple of references to paragraph 122 of
the Supreme Court judgment. It says:
“There is no equivalence between the constitutional
importance of a statute…and its length or complexity.”
It adds:
“A notice under article 50…could…be very short”.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is a very
important message for Opposition Members?
-
Mr Davis
I take my hon. Friend’s point, and I will seek incisive
brevity.
-
(Leicester West)
(Lab)
The Prime Minister said that
“no deal…is better than a bad deal”,
but ending up on World Trade Organisation rules could be
the worst possible deal, hitting businesses and families
hard. May I press the Secretary of State: will there be a
vote in this House at the end of the trade negotiations—not
just the article 50 process, but the trade negotiations—so
that Parliament can decide what is in Britain’s national
economic interest?
-
Mr Davis
I will correct the hon. Lady slightly: there will not be a
simple trade negotiation. The European Union pretty much
always insists that nothing is agreed until everything is
agreed, so justice and home affairs, security matters and a
whole series of other issues will be tied into it. But,
yes, there will be a vote at the end of it. We have already
agreed to that.
-
Mrs (South East Cornwall)
(Con)
There has been a lot of talk by some Opposition Members of
second referendums on article 50. Will my right hon. Friend
reassure my constituents, the majority of whom voted to
leave, that he will categorically rule out any second
referendum?
-
Mr Davis
Yes is the answer. I am afraid I take the view that to
suggest that somehow the British people did not know what
they were doing the first time so must have a chance to get
the answer right is, bluntly, patronising, undemocratic and
improper. Rightly, that view is held by one of the smallest
parties in this House. The answer is that I will not under
any circumstances support a second referendum.
-
(Arfon) (PC)
The Welsh Labour Government and Plaid Cymru, as the
official Opposition, have come together in good faith to
establish our Brexit aims, which were published yesterday
as a White Paper. Why will the Secretary of State not do
likewise?
-
Mr Davis
I spoke to about that yesterday. I
have not had a chance to read it in detail, but I know the
headlines. He took me through them, and it struck me as a
very constructive submission to the process. We will debate
it at the next Joint Ministerial Committee.
-
(Hazel Grove)
(Con)
Mr Speaker,
“joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth”.
Does my right hon. Friend share my delight that those who
were previously happy for sovereignty to be dispatched to
Brussels now believe in the sovereignty of the United
Kingdom Parliament?
-
Mr Davis
I warn my hon. Friend to be wary of biblical quotations.
The last one I used was,
“Get thee behind me, Satan”,
and it rode with me for several weeks thereafter. However,
he is right that this is a massive exercise in democracy,
and we will make it so.
-
(Newport West) (Lab)
The Supreme Court’s judgment is welcome in that it
establishes that the will of this House is sovereign and
superior to the royal prerogative, but it is unwelcome in
that it seeks to take back from Wales, Scotland and
Northern Ireland powers that had been devolved to them.
Will the Secretary of State promise that the special needs
of Wales, which will be hit more severely by withdrawal
from the single market than England, will be considered and
that we will have not just a red, white and blue Brexit,
but a red, white and green Brexit that meets the will and
the needs of Wales?
-
Mr Davis
I will say two things. First, I think that the hon.
Gentleman misreads the judgment. It does not talk about
taking back powers back from the devolved Administrations
at all, as far as I can see. As I said to the hon. Member
for Arfon (Hywel Williams), the interests of the people of
Wales, as far as the Welsh Government view them, have been
put into a paper that has been submitted to the Joint
Ministerial Committee and will be debated at the next
meeting of its European negotiating arm.
-
Mr (North West
Cambridgeshire) (Con)
The Supreme Court judgment was decisive in its position on
the devolved Assemblies. Given that, does my right hon.
Friend agree that now is the time for the stateswomen and
statesmen of the devolved Assemblies to respect the
decision of the Supreme Court and work constructively with
the Government for the greater good of the United Kingdom,
of which they are very much a part?
-
Mr Davis
I could not have put it better myself.
-
(Ashfield)
(Lab)
I will vote to trigger article 50, but I also have a duty
to scrutinise the Government’s deal to ensure that it does
not make my constituents poorer. As taxpayers, my
constituents have a right to know how much the appeal to
the Supreme Court cost them. Will the Secretary of State
tell us?
-
Mr Davis
On the latter point, I do not have that number in my mind,
but I can—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Well, I don’t. I have been
studying the judgment today. I will provide the hon. Lady
with that number as soon as I can. That will happen
quickly. I am quite sure that the Supreme Court judgment
will have been expensive on one level, because lawyers are
expensive, as the Labour spokesman would tell us. I am sure
that he is a much more expensive lawyer—that is the
greatest compliment I can pay him.
To make a more fundamental point, when we are dealing with
something as important as this—I do not think anybody in
the House questions the importance of the constitutional
decision that has been made today—it is incredibly
important that it is done on solid ground, with proper
authority and in a way that the Government can interpret
properly to deliver the right outcome. I have made that
point across this Dispatch Box more than once. Frankly, it
will therefore be worth whatever we have paid for it.
-
Mr (Kettering)
(Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend for being the right man in
the right place at the right time. Sixty-one per cent of
the people of Kettering voted to leave the European Union.
They will take comfort that there is nothing in today’s
judgment that will delay the process, and they will like
the fact that their Member of Parliament will obey their
instructions and vote to trigger article 50. I commend it
to all other Members to do the same.
-
Mr Davis
I thank my hon. Friend for that. All I can say is that I am
surprised it was only 61% in his constituency.
-
(Foyle) (SDLP)
The judgement’s terms tell us that we should not rely on
mere political convention for legal adherence or political
confirmation on key matters. That being so, Sewel will be
meaningless in the context of the great repeal Bill. Does
the Secretary of State recognise that the key
constitutional precept of the Good Friday agreement—the
principle of consent and the democratic potential for a
united Ireland—will have to be explicitly included in any
new UK-EU treaty in order to fully reflect the principle
that those issues are a matter for the people of Ireland,
without external impediment, and to properly reflect the
terms of today’s Supreme Court judgment?
-
Mr Davis
I will not reiterate the facts of the Supreme Court
judgment on the Northern Irish aspect. The hon. Gentleman
can read those much more authoritatively in the judgment. I
have said to him before in this House and reiterate to him
again that there is more than one guarantee in this matter.
The British Government are determined to preserve the peace
settlement and all that underpins it; the Irish Government
are determined to underpin it; and so is the Commission. I
will say something nice about the Commission in this
regard. When I spoke to , my opposite
number, he reminded me that he was involved in the original
peace process. All the parties to this matter therefore
have a vested interest in delivering what the hon.
Gentleman wants.
-
(Wimbledon)
(Con)
You will recall last week, Mr Speaker, my right hon. Friend
extolling the fact that he liked to please his boss. He
also said earlier what a wonderful speech she made last
week. I say to him that he could unify the whole of this
side of the House by publishing a White Paper based on that
excellent speech. I am sure that that would make him even
more popular with our boss.
-
Mr Davis
I thought I was really rather restrained, given that the
Prime Minister was sitting here today. I could have been
thoroughly oleaginous, but I was not prompted by my right
hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) this
time, who gave me the line about Her Majesty.
-
I nearly said that.
-
Mr Davis
Yes, absolutely. I will not rehearse all the arguments
again, but I will provide whatever information I can and as
much information as I can, as promptly as I can, bearing in
mind that the process is likely to start next week.
-
(Pontypridd) (Lab)
I agree with the Secretary of State that the Prime Minister
was very clear in her speech last week that we are leaving
the single market and likely the customs union. Before the
referendum, his Government said that that would cost the
British people £66 billion or roughly half the cost of the
NHS per year. Do the Government stand by that estimate or
is there a different estimate today? If so, will he tell us
what it is?
-
Mr Davis
I will say two things. First, Andy Haldane, the deputy
governor of the Bank of England, has talked about a Michael
Fish moment for economic forecasters. That is something the
hon. Gentleman might deliberate on the next time he wants
to ask a question like this. Secondly, economic models and
forecasts are only as good as the assumptions that go into
them. The point that the Prime Minister made last week was
not just that we would not be a member of the single
market, but that we would seek the freest and most
barrier-free access in the interests of the people of Wales
and others. That is what we will seek, but the negotiation
is not complete yet. That is our aim and if we succeed, it
will be hugely valuable for the people of Wales.
-
(Eastleigh) (Con)
The EU referendum saw a 72% turnout and a clear vote to
leave the European Union, showing the strongly-held will of
the British people. Does my right hon. Friend agree that
the Liberal Democrats’ call for a second referendum—one
Liberal Democrat Member was here today, but he is not here
now—shows that they do not care about the public’s view
unless they get their way?
-
Mr Davis
Looking across the Chamber, I am tempted to say, “What
Liberal Democrats?”. As my hon. Friend said, there was only
one of them here, which shows just how seriously they take
this incredibly important issue. I think the public at
large will take the view that the Liberal Democrats are
trying to use this matter for their own political purposes,
not for the national interest.
-
(Lewisham East)
(Lab)
There have understandably been a lot of questions today
about process, but there is an emerging Brexit reality in
the country for which this Government are responsible. A
thousand jobs are going from London to Paris with HSBC, and
Toyota, Lloyd’s of London, UBS and Nissan are all reviewing
their operations. Exactly how many jobs are the Government
prepared to lose to other European countries while we
negotiate our exit from the EU?
-
Mr Davis
I could stand here for 10 minutes naming companies, such as
Apple, Google, Microsoft and McDonald’s, that have decided
to be here. We have pretty much the highest employment and
lowest unemployment rates for some considerable time,
completely contrary to the pessimistic predictions of many
people after the Brexit result. If we want a demonstration
of how wrong the establishment of Britain got this, we need
only look at those numbers.
-
(Macclesfield)
(Con)
Exiting the EU is unchartered territory, and there will
naturally be uncertainties and challenges along the way, so
what steps are the Government taking to communicate with
British businesses in order to build confidence and foster
economic growth in the months ahead?
-
Mr Davis
I can send my hon. Friend the details, but the number of
meetings is beyond counting; we have had meetings with
manufacturing, aviation, tourism, finance and banking,
insurance and so on. Not just my Ministers but Ministers
across Government are talking to their own client
industries, as it were, to ensure they know what their
concerns are, what the opportunities are and what policy
measures we have to take to maximise the opportunities and
mitigate any concerns. It took a few months, but people are
beginning to see the opportunities, rather than the
concerns, which represents an incredibly important change
in mood in our country.
-
(Ilford South)
(Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State has twice said that the point of no
return was on 23 June, and he has ruled out a White Paper
and a vote on the plan. Does he agree that neither the
words “customs union” nor “single market” were on the
ballot paper? If the House decides, at some point after
article 50 has been triggered, that it does not wish to
proceed with the process, would we leave automatically or
is it reversible?
-
Mr Davis
First, I have listened to people talking about what was not
on the ballot paper. It is rather like saying, “You said
you were going to sell the car, but you didn’t say you were
going to sell me the engine and tyres as well.” These
elements—the common external tariff barrier, the common
commercial policy, the role of the European Court of
Justice, and so on—are components of the EU, which the
public voted to leave. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman
misquotes me. I have said that there will be any number of
votes and debates in the coming two years, many of them
about the issues he talks about.
-
(Newark) (Con)
I fully support the words from all quarters in support of
our judges, who are the best, most inscrutable and
highest-quality I have seen anywhere in the world, but does
my right hon. Friend agree that those warm words need to be
matched by action from all Members? In particular, just as
the Government accept the verdict, should not Members
accept the words of the Supreme Court that a small Bill can
have the same power as a larger one, and should not those
from some of the devolved parts of the UK accept the
verdict, too? On the cost, does he agree that, if he is
publishing the cost of the Government’s action, we should
ask the devolved Assemblies, particularly that in Scotland,
to publish how much taxpayers’ money they spent joining the
action?
-
Mr Davis
As I said on the costs, I will provide the numbers; there
is no problem with doing that. I would make the point,
however, that we did not bring the case, of which the cost
is a direct outcome. I am not one of those—[Interruption.]
Animal noises from the Opposition notwithstanding, I am not
one of those who criticise the people who brought the case;
I think they brought a very important constitutional case,
which is why I said, whatever it cost, it was worth doing.
Let no one say to the Government, however, “Why did you
appeal the case?”. We did so because a massively important
constitutional issue was at stake, and my hon. Friend is
right that we should all take it very seriously, take it as
the status of our law today and obey it accordingly.
-
(Perth and North
Perthshire) (SNP)
Scotland is supposed to have the most powerful devolved
Parliament in the world, and the Scotland Acts tell us now
that it is permanent and that the Sewel convention is
embedded in law, but we now know, of course, that the
Scotland Acts are barely worth the vellum they are written
on. The Secretary of State says he is listening to
Scotland—that is great, he has said it several times
today—but when will he act? If he does not accept the very
reasonable proposals we put to him, the Scottish people
will quickly ask what the point is of our being here at
all.
-
Mr Davis
If I remember correctly, the Supreme Court said of the
Sewel convention that it was not for the judges to decide.
I listened last week as the Scottish Government Minister
presented at great length the arguments in their paper. As
I said earlier to one of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues,
there are bits we disagree with and bits we absolutely
agree with—for me, the most obvious one is the protection
of employment law, which I take very seriously and on which
we are absolutely in the same place. I and others on the
Joint Ministerial Committee discussed with the Minister the
issue of devolution, and the clear point was that no
existing devolved powers were to be retracted. Of course,
that is not going to happen, but we also have to think, in
rational terms and in the interests of the Scottish people
and citizens of the UK more widely, about where the best
place is to make decisions. In most cases, I would prefer
to devolve powers, but in some circumstances that is not
practical. We have to do what is right for the people, not
what suits our political interest.
-
(South Dorset)
(Con)
I am confident that every Member will vote to trigger
article 50—for which of us would dare thwart the will of
the people? Does my right hon. Friend share my concern,
though, about the implications of the case for a
Government’s decision to go to war, for example? Could that
now be challenged by a member of the public?
-
Mr Davis
No, I do not think my hon. Friend is right. It is a 96-page
judgment, so we have to go through the detail, but the
major part of the case was confined to two aspects—the
implications specifically for the European Communities Act
and for those treaties that have an effect on the domestic
legal rights of citizens—and I do not think that the
decision to go to war falls within either. He raises more
broadly, however, an important point. We are in an era when
the exact reach of the royal prerogative has to be
established and understood. Once we are in complete command
of our own future, we will have to know what the Government
can and cannot do, what we have to do in conjunction with
Parliament and where we have to go back for authorisation.
That is one reason we are taking our time to read the
judgment.
-
(Kingston upon Hull
North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has mentioned a few times that this
is a massive exercise in democracy. I put it to him that a
useful tool in a participatory democracy is issuing White
Papers. I do not understand why he has set his face against
doing that, given that we are about to make the most
important decision for many generations and trigger article
50.
-
Mr Davis
The Chairman of the Select Committee, who is not here, said
his Committee wanted a plan as quickly as possible—before
the middle of February; I said it would be difficult to
turn out a full White Paper before then. One of the virtues
of delivering the plan via a prime ministerial speech of
some length was that we could do it quickly, we could make
it very clear and everybody could understand it. It also
got coverage around the world in a way that no other medium
could have. People remind me—and sometimes tease me, of
course—of my history as an activist for parliamentary
rights. The important point is that we are here only
because we represent our constituents’ interests.
I have tried—I keep reiterating this phrase—to provide as
much information as possible. Let us take the plan with
respect to what was asked for by Labour Front-Bench Members
and the Select Committee. They asked, “What are we going to
do about the single market?” and hopefully that is now
plain. They asked, “What are we going to do about the
customs union?”, and hopefully that is now plain. They
asked, “What are we going to do about justice and home
affairs?”, and hopefully that is now plain. They asked,
“What role is seen for Britain in the world?”, and
hopefully that is now plain, too. Of course, what we cannot
do is say what the outcome of the negotiation will be. We
cannot give that level of certainty, but we can certainly
give a level of certainty, as we have and as we will, as to
what the aims and strategic objectives are. We have done
that.
-
(Bath) (Con)
I, too, welcome today’s judgment by the Supreme Court, and
I would like to lend my support to the Supreme Court
judges. I hope that we do not see any repeat in tomorrow’s
newspapers of the bile that was directed towards the High
Court judges last year. Although I welcome the Prime
Minister’s speech last week, which focused on a
comprehensive free trade agreement, I have received
thousands of emails and correspondence from my constituents
all wanting to have their say on this issue. After all, 70%
of them voted to remain inside the European Union. Does my
right hon. Friend therefore agree—as other colleagues have
said, and without wishing to make him repeat himself—that
the best way to do this and to ensure that my constituents’
views are heard is via the use of a White Paper?
-
Mr Davis
I am afraid that my hon. Friend has failed in not making me
repeat myself. Plainly, the House has determined that I
would fail miserably in “Just a Minute”, or whatever the
quiz is called where people are not allowed to repeat
themselves. I reiterate that it is the facts that matter
and the plan that matters and answering Parliament’s
questions that matters. We have done all those things. We
will continue. I will continue to provide whatever
information I can without compromising our negotiating
position—I will do that.
-
(South Antrim)
(UUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer to the hon.
Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), when he said that he
had written to the Northern Ireland Executive. Does he
recognise that the Northern Ireland Executive have
collapsed after just eight months and may not have the
confidence of the people of Northern Ireland? They had no
joint plan. Will the Secretary of State ensure that he
writes to all parties and includes everyone, so that we get
something that will tell all of us where we are going? We
accept the result. We need a quick resolution, but we must
all be included. Will he do that?
-
Mr Davis
The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. Before I
answer directly, let me say that I have, of course, sought
to get the parties in the Executive to continue to send a
Minister to the Joint Ministerial Committee, but that is
only one mechanism; there are others. I think that the
Prime Minister will be speaking to the Taoiseach next week,
so the Irish Government interest will be represented. I
will, of course, talk to others more directly. I went to
Northern Ireland early on in my time in this job. I am
inclined to say yes to the hon. Gentleman—I will write to
him—but let me consider the issue carefully, so that I do
not land myself in some problem. The reason I say that and
the reason I am being cautious is that an election is now
under way, and I have to be wary of the British Government
appearing to meddle in any aspect of the election. Let me,
therefore, pause and think about that. I will do what I
judge to be in the best interests of Northern Ireland. The
hon. Gentleman must take that as my promise.
-
Several hon. Members rose—
-
Mr Speaker
Order. After faster progress for a while, the pace has
slowed terribly in the last few minutes. What is required
is a pithy question of the kind in which a Queen’s Counsel
should specialise. Let us hear about the contents of the
textbook pithily. I call .
-
(South East
Cambridgeshire) (Con)
The Supreme Court, at the beginning of its judgment, on its
very first page, said in terms that it wanted to emphasise
that the case had absolutely nothing to do with the terms
of withdrawal, the arrangements for withdrawal or the
details as to any future relationship with Europe. In those
circumstances, does the Secretary of State agree that all
that the Supreme Court decided was that, before pulling the
trigger, there needs to be authorisation by Act of
Parliament? Under the terms of the judgment at least, there
is no obligation to set out the details of any deal.
-
Mr Davis
I agree.
-
(Rutherglen and
Hamilton West) (SNP)
Today’s judgment states that, notwithstanding new
legislative constraints,
“withdrawal from the EU will enhance the devolved
competence”.
I asked the Secretary of State this same question just last
week and was dismayed to find that he was able to provide
only his presumptions. Can he now provide concrete examples
of which types of powers will be devolved to the devolved
Administrations, following our exit from the European
Union?
-
Mr Davis
I rather suspect that the hon. Lady misquotes me from last
week. What I said, or what I should have said, was that
some elements of the powers coming back from the European
Union will go to the devolved Administrations, that some
will stay in the centre, but for a number we are going to
have to debate the matter and decide. That will happen in
the first instance in the Joint Ministerial Committee and
then at Cabinet.
-
Several hon. Members rose—
-
Mr Speaker
Single sentence questions, please, with the abandonment of
any preamble that colleagues might have in mind.
-
(Boston and Skegness)
(Con)
Although the Secretary of State should take seriously
amendments proposed to the forthcoming legislation in good
faith, I invite him to give short shrift to those who seek
to use amendments to derail or delay a vital process.
-
Mr Davis
I will.
-
(Cardiff South and
Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State has already attempted to sideline
Parliament by appealing this case and by refusing to
publish a White Paper, so can he be very clear: will the
Bill be drafted in such terms as to allow not just
amendments, but substantive amendments? Yes or no?
-
Mr Davis
I have been here for 30 years. If the hon. Gentleman knows
how to draft a Bill that withstands any amendments, I would
like to hear about it.
-
(Stratford-on-Avon)
(Con)
In any negotiation, it is worth thinking about the other
side. Lord Hill, who knows a thing or two about Europe,
came to give evidence to our Select Committee on the best
strategy for negotiation. He said that it is now to come
together because the decision has been made; otherwise, we
would be sending mixed messages to our interlocutors. Does
the Secretary of State agree?
-
Mr Davis
Yes, and I would hope that, once we get through the article
50 process, we will see a rather more collegiate attitude
from all parts of the political spectrum. It is, after all,
our national interest that is engaged.
-
(Hove) (Lab)
A moment ago, the Secretary of State reminded us that our
job is to do what is in the best interest of our
constituents. The city I represent has 8.5 million visitors
each year, has two universities and has an economy that
includes the head offices of EDF and Amex. If I do not
believe that, between now and March, the guarantees offered
by this Government will protect everything that is great
about my city, surely the right hon. Gentleman would agree
with me that I cannot support this timescale.
-
Mr Davis
I am not about to protect the hon. Gentleman from his
constituents, I am afraid. My comment to him is this: we
are in a negotiation. If he can point out to me a
negotiation that had guarantees before it started, I would
be interested to hear about it.
-
(Torbay) (Con)
I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree that it is
strange that many seem to be unaware that legislative
changes will be needed on a range of issues as we leave and
not just on the point about article 50. Does he agree
distinctly that, if people try to use tricks of procedure
in this House or anywhere else to try to frustrate article
50, they will fuel the scepticism that pushed people to
vote leave?
-
Mr Davis
That is true, and I think Members’ constituents would
notice, too.
-
(Airdrie and Shotts)
(SNP)
rose—
-
Mr Speaker
Somebody who has been waiting a long time must have been
able to work out how to put the question in a short
sentence. I call . Let us hear it.
-
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Given that a legislative consent
motion is now apparently a political decision and there is
no impediment to the Government bringing one forward, will
the Secretary of State advise us whether the Government had
a legislative consent contingency in place before the
Supreme Court ruling and why on earth he would rule out
bringing one forward now?
-
Mr Davis
Because I have said that no component part of the United
Kingdom has a veto. If the hon. Gentleman had been
listening, he would know that I have said that dozens of
times in this House.
-
Mr (Bury North)
(Con)
Can my right hon. Friend reassure my Bury North
constituents, a majority of whom voted to leave, that he
will allow nothing to get in the way of ensuring that the
Bill that he has announced will be passed as quickly as
possible?
-
Mr Davis
Yes.
-
(Ross, Skye and
Lochaber) (SNP)
The Secretary of State said in his statement that the
Government are determined to deliver on a decision taken by
the people of the United Kingdom but Scotland, of course,
the country that we on the SNP Benches represent, voted to
remain within the United Kingdom and the Scottish
Government have been empowered by the Parliament to make
sure that we remain within the single market. Why is the
Secretary of State acting against the best interests of the
Scottish people? Will he not understand that, if he refuses
to accept our will, our only option—
-
Mr Speaker
Order. Too long. Too loud. We do not want to hear it.
Enough.
-
Mr Davis
First, I do not necessarily think that the interests of the
Scottish National party are the same as those of the
Scottish people. Secondly, as I remember, the Scottish
nation voted to stay inside the United Kingdom—the United
Kingdom that voted to leave the European Union.
-
(Bolton West) (Con)
The World Trade Organisation has done a fantastic amount of
work to reduce trade barriers around the world, and it is
the basis of our trading relationship with the United
States of America, where we have a trade surplus. Does my
right hon. Friend agree with me that this provides a great
foundation for a trade deal with the EU, and that it is now
for the EU to do something better than that?
-
Mr Davis
I agree.
-
(Clwyd South)
(Lab)
The Secretary of State has spoken a great deal about
listening to the devolved nations, but will he listen to
what they have to say about the importance of unfettered
access to the single market?
-
Mr Davis
We already have. That was the point that the Prime Minister
was making when she said that we wanted barrier-free, most
facilitated trade with the EU.
-
(Cleethorpes)
(Con)
Can my right hon. Friend assure the 70% of my constituents
who voted for Brexit that he has a contingency plan to
ensure that, if the upper House were to attempt to thwart
or delay the Bill, we would meet the March deadline?
-
Mr Davis
From what I remember of my hon. Friend’s constituency,
there are enough Members of the upper House in it for him
to be able to tell them himself.
-
(Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
(SNP)
The Secretary of State talks about not thwarting the will
of the people. Will he finally recognise that 62% of people
in Scotland voted to stay? The Scottish Government are not
asking for a veto; they are asking for a compromise that
would allow Scotland to maintain membership of the single
market. When will the Secretary of State work with them to
achieve that?
-
Mr Davis
As I have said to several of the hon. Gentleman’s
colleagues, we work in the Joint Ministerial Committee, we
work bilaterally, and we seek to protect the interests of
the whole United Kingdom, not least Scotland.
-
(Birmingham, Selly Oak)
(Lab)
I do not want to frustrate the process, but is the
Secretary of State saying that the referendum result is the
only factor that should govern the article 50 vote? Is that
not tantamount to signing a blank cheque and setting aside
the views of our constituents?
-
Mr Davis
When a question begins “I do not want to frustrate the
process, but”, it tells us something in its own right.
The Government are seeking authorisation to trigger the
start of the negotiation, which is what the British people
voted for last year. End of story. That is not the only
issue, but it is the most important issue.
-
(Inverclyde)
(SNP)
This judgment rode roughshod through the Sewel convention.
Can the Secretary of State assure me that he will seek
meaningful discussions with the Scottish Government which
will respect and reflect the desire of the Scottish
electorate to remain in the EU?
-
Mr Davis
I think that the Scottish Government’s case was represented
in the Supreme Court. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I do not
pick and choose which bits I like or do not like; I go
along with the Supreme Court, because it is the highest
court in our land and we have to obey it.
-
(Nottingham South)
(Lab)
The country voted to leave the EU, but my constituents did
not vote for a cut in their living standards. There are
genuine and serious concerns about the impact on our
economy, manufacturing, higher education and research if
the UK leaves the EU without a deal and falls back under
World Trade Organisation rules. What assessment has the
Secretary of State made of the risks of leaving with no
deal in place, and will he publish that assessment so that
it can be subjected to proper scrutiny?
-
Mr Davis
There were a great many forecasts of how terrible things
would be if the people voted for Brexit. They were all
undilutedly wrong: every single one was wrong. Our
strategic aim is to secure a comprehensive free trade
agreement, not to fail to do so, and that is what will
protect the hon. Lady’s constituents if she is willing to
pay attention to it.
-
(South Down)
(SDLP)
The Secretary of State has said that he wants to preserve
the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, and that
he understands the peace settlement. We are currently
engaged in an election process, which will be quickly
followed by negotiations of which Brexit will form an
important part. In discussions with the Taoiseach and with
the Irish Government, will the Secretary of State ensure
that special status for Northern Ireland is considered
thoroughly in those negotiations?
-
Mr Davis
A whole series of special circumstances apply. When I first
visited Northern Ireland after taking up my present post,
what came up were matters such as the importance of the
border and the single energy market, and we will continue
to pay attention to those matters. If the hon. Lady will
forgive me, I am going to be very careful about answering
questions because of the ongoing election process, but I
think she should take it as read that we take this issue
very seriously indeed.
-
(Glenrothes) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Scotland, who is no longer in
the Chamber, told the House on at least five occasions that
the Sewel convention had been placed on a statutory footing
by the Scotland Act. Today the Supreme Court said that that
was not the case. Which of those contradictory judgments
currently holds the confidence of Her Majesty’s Government?
-
Mr Davis
It was not a contradictory judgment. This is a reserved
matter.
-
Dr (East Kilbride,
Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)
Surely the ruling confirms that “Brexit means Brexit” has
been totally inadequate as any sort of explanation to
Parliament or its people. The devil is often in the detail,
particularly the Tory detail, and surely that detail ought
to be provided in the form of a White Paper.
-
Mr Davis
Obviously the hon. Lady is not the first person to ask for
a White Paper, but hers was perhaps one of the more
partisan requests. The strategic aims are very clear: they
are designed to protect the interests of the people whom
she represents.
-
(Glasgow North)
(SNP)
I noted that the judgment was issued during the Court’s
Hilary term. I hope that someone will explain to the Trump
Administration exactly what that means.
Can the Secretary of State tell us why it is right for
unelected peers to have a greater say in the article 50
process than elected Members of the devolved institutions?
-
Mr Davis
I am trying to think what the significance of Hilary term
is, except in the context of the Chairman of the Exiting
the European Union Committee. I am afraid that I did not
hear half the hon. Gentleman’s question, so I shall have to
write to him. [Hon. Members: “It was about the Lords.”] I
could not hear that either. I will answer later.
-
(Aberdeen North)
(SNP)
There are rules in place which ensure that Parliament can
scrutinise legislation as it passes through the House. Will
the Secretary of State commit himself to ensuring that
those rules remain in place, and that there will be two
clear weekends between the Bill’s First and Second
Readings?
-
Mr Davis
That is a matter for the usual channels, not for me.
-
(Stirling) (SNP)
The Scottish Government have published the details of their
proposals for maximising an ongoing relationship with the
European Union. Does the Secretary of State recognise that
refusing to publish a White Paper is tantamount to political
cowardice?
-
Mr Davis
I really do not think so. I have never been accused of
cowardice before, so I am not quite sure how to respond to
the question, but the answer is no.
-
(Edinburgh East)
(SNP)
I am becoming increasingly concerned about the way in which
supporters of the Government’s view are trying to
delegitimise the opinions of others by suggesting that their
intention is to thwart the decision to leave the European
Union. May I ask the Secretary of State to confirm, having
read the statement of the Scottish Government’s position,
that no part of that document suggests that Scotland, or
indeed any other part of the United Kingdom, should do
anything other than leave the European Union?
-
Mr Davis
After receiving that document I was very careful not to
criticise it publicly, because I wanted to have that debate.
I was chairing the Joint Ministerial Committee, so I did not
want to, as it were, colour my chairing of it.
As I have said before, the document falls into three
categories. There are bits which I did not think would work,
there are bits that are subject to debate—especially those
relating to devolution issues—and there are bits where we are
absolutely on the same page, on matters such as employment
law. However, elements of this paper will run into problems
not just with the United Kingdom Government, but with other
members of the European Union. It was criticised by the
Spanish Europe Minister, and it was criticised implicitly by
senior Norwegians on the European Free Trade Association
front. I do not think that it can be held up as the ideal
model for a perfect outcome.
-
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Secretary of State, to the Opposition
spokespersons, and to all 84 Back Benchers who took part in
this important series of exchanges.
-
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department
for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of
Headley) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat
a Statement made in the other place earlier today by my
right honourable friend the Secretary of State for
Exiting the European Union. The Statement is as
follows.
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I will now make a
Statement on the Government’s response to today’s
judgment by the Supreme Court.
This Government are determined to deliver on the
decision taken by the people of the United Kingdom in
the referendum granted to them by this House to leave
the European Union. So we will move swiftly to do just
that. I can announce today that we will shortly
introduce legislation allowing the Government to move
ahead with invoking Article 50, which starts the formal
process of withdrawing from the EU. We received the
lengthy 96-page judgment just a few hours ago.
Government lawyers are assessing it carefully.
But this will be a straightforward Bill. It is not
about whether or not the UK should leave the EU. That
decision has already been made by the people of the
United Kingdom. We will work with colleagues in both
Houses to ensure that this Bill is passed in good time
for us to invoke Article 50 by the end of March this
year, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister
has set out. This timetable has already been supported
by this House.
Let me now go through the issues step by step. The
Government’s priority following the European Union
referendum has been to respect the outcome, as promised
by both sides in the campaign, and to ensure that it is
delivered in the interest of the whole country. This
House voted by six to one to put the decision in the
hands of the voters, and that Bill passed the other
place unopposed. So there can be no going back. The
point of no return was passed on 23 June.
The Government have also always been clear that we must
leave by following the process set out in Article 50 of
the Treaty on European Union. People want and expect us
to get on with implementing the decision that was made.
Let me now turn more specifically to the process for
invoking Article 50 and the issues that arise from
today’s Supreme Court judgment. The Government’s view,
which we argued in both the High Court and subsequently
in the Supreme Court, was that it was constitutionally
proper and lawful for the Government to begin to give
effect to the decision of the people by the use of
prerogative powers to invoke Article 50. Today the
Supreme Court has agreed with the High Court’s view
that prerogative power alone is insufficient to give
notice under Article 50, and that legislation is
required in order to provide the necessary
authorisation for this step.
In addition, the Supreme Court considered the roles of
the devolved legislatures in the process of triggering
Article 50. On this, the Supreme Court ruled:
‘Relations with the EU and other foreign affairs
matters are reserved to UK Government and parliament,
not to the devolved institutions’.
The Supreme Court’s summary goes on to say:
‘The devolved legislatures do not have a veto on the
UK’s decision to withdraw from the EU’.
I will come back to our collaboration with the devolved
Administrations later in this Statement.
The Government have been giving careful thought to the
steps that we would need to take in the event of the
Supreme Court upholding the High Court’s view. First of
all, let me be clear that we believe in and value the
independence of our judiciary, the foundation on which
our rule of law is built. So of course we will respect
this judgment.
Secondly, as I have already made clear, this judgment
does not change the fact that the UK will be leaving
the EU, and it is our job to deliver on the instruction
that the people of the UK have given us. Thirdly, we
will within days introduce legislation to give the
Government the legal power to trigger Article 50 and
begin the formal process of withdrawal. It will be
separate from the great repeal Bill that will be
introduced later this year to repeal the European
Communities Act 1972. This will be the most
straightforward Bill possible to give effect to the
decision of the people and respect the Supreme Court’s
judgment. The purpose of the Bill is simply to give the
Government the power to invoke Article 50 and begin the
process of leaving the EU. That is what the British
people voted for, and that is what they would expect.
Parliament will rightly scrutinise and debate this
legislation. But I trust that no one will seek to make
it a vehicle for attempts to thwart the will of the
people, or to frustrate or delay the process of our
exit from the EU.
Fourthly, our timetable for invoking Article 50 by the
end of March still stands. That timetable has given
valuable certainty to citizens and businesses in the UK
and across Europe. It is understood by our European
partners and provides a framework for planning the
negotiation ahead. This House itself backed this
timetable by a majority of 373 in December. So we look
forward to working closely with colleagues in
Parliament to ensure that legislation on Article 50 is
passed in good time to allow us to invoke it by the end
of March, as planned.
The Government’s fifth and final principle for
responding to this judgment is to continue to ensure
that we deliver an exit that is in the best interests
of the whole of the United Kingdom. The Supreme Court
has ruled clearly in the Government’s favour on the
roles of the devolved legislatures in invoking Article
50. But while this provides welcome clarity, it in no
way diminishes our commitment to work closely with the
people and Administrations of Wales, Scotland and
Northern Ireland as we move forward with our withdrawal
from the European Union.
Let me conclude with a word on what today’s judgment
means for the United Kingdom, and the nature of our
democracy. I know that this case, on an issue of such
importance which arouses strong views on all sides, has
not been without controversy. But the court was asked a
question, a proper, thorough and independent process
was gone through, and it has given its answer in law.
We are a law-abiding nation: indeed, the United Kingdom
is known the world over for the strength and
independence of its legal system. We will build on this
and our many other strengths as we leave the European
Union. We will once again be a fully independent,
sovereign country, free to make our own decisions.
The Prime Minister has already set out a comprehensive
plan, including our core negotiating objectives. She
has been clear that we want a new, positive and
constructive partnership for the United Kingdom and the
European Union—a partnership that would be good for the
United Kingdom and good for the rest of Europe.
Today we are taking the necessary step to respect the
Supreme Court’s decision, by announcing a Bill. It will
now be up to this Parliament to respect the decision it
entrusted to the people of the United Kingdom—a
decision they took on 23 June. I commend this Statement
to the House”.
3.15 pm
-
of Kentish Town
(Lab)
I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I
thank also the Supreme Court judges for doing their
constitutional job: as they made clear, not commenting
on the wisdom or timing of Brexit, but on how UK
law—our law—requires the Government to act.
So here we have it. The Government failed to make the
referendum binding, leaving it advisory, which helped
to fuel the uncertainty that has ended only today. Once
we knew the outcome of the referendum, the Government
failed to take the sensible route: to get Parliament,
effectively, to ratify the outcome by agreeing to
trigger Article 50. Then the Government failed to heed
the High Court view that it was for Parliament, not
Ministers, to take this step. So the Supreme Court has
ruled—as we expected—that Parliament must authorise the
Prime Minister to start the exit negotiations by
invoking Article 50.
So we are today where we should have been on 24 June:
with Parliament to take the decision, albeit with the
Government determining the timetable. The court has
ended the uncertainty over the process for triggering
Article 50. However, there is still one large,
outstanding matter—the remaining uncertainty. What is
the plan? What is the framework which the Government
intend should guide their negotiations on our
relationship with the EU 27 post exit? What is the plan
for how we leave and for our future trading and other
relationships with the EU 27?
It is no good saying that the plan is a speech that the
Prime Minister gave, not even in Parliament but to
ambassadors at Lancaster House. That is not sufficient
for Parliament—for this House, the Commons or indeed
the Select Committee—to be able to scrutinise whether
the Government’s objectives are the right ones for the
UK and whether their negotiations are achieving those
objectives.
We need to know how the emerging post-Brexit
relationship will promote jobs and the economy; how it
will protect environmental, social and consumer rights;
how it will ensure that all parts of our nation—rural
areas as well as cities—will benefit; and how the
Government will ensure that our trade with the EU—and
beyond—can be free of tariff and non-tariff barriers.
This House needs to examine the Government’s exit plan.
Our EU Committees are doing splendid work on the detail
of available options. We need to measure the Government
against the evidence that they are producing on costs
and benefits.
Today simply says how the exit process should be
started. Will the Minister say when the Article 50 Bill
will be published and whether it will include a plan
for how we exit the EU? We will be watching the
Government from now on, to ensure that they negotiate
in the interests of all our people, and with the
consent of this House and the other place.
-
(LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the
Statement.
We should at least be grateful for the clarity of
today’s ruling. This was, however, a completely
unnecessary legal procedure. If the Government had
brought forward shortly after the referendum the Bill
which the court has now forced upon them, it would now
be safely enacted and much time, effort and cost saved.
It is a sign of the robustness of our constitutional
arrangements that a private citizen can require the
Government, against their will, to play by the rules,
but it is greatly to the Government’s discredit that
this was ever necessary.
Now we have the Bill, I should make clear what the
stance of these Benches will be. On 23 June, the
British people did not vote for a particular version of
Brexit, and the majority of people certainly did not
support leaving the single market—a course on which the
Government are now firmly set. We will therefore seek
to amend the Bill to provide for a referendum to be
held when we know the terms the Government have been
able to negotiate. The Government may have a mandate to
start Brexit negotiations; they certainly do not have a
mandate to impose harsh Brexit terms on the country.
Can the Minister give us any further information about
the planned timetable of the Bill through your
Lordships’ House? It will clearly not be possible to
maintain the normal minimum intervals between stages of
the Bill if we are to deal with it by the end of March.
We understand that but can the Minister give an
assurance that the Government will not attempt to ram
the Bill through in a few days, as appears to be the
case in the Commons?
The Government say that the timetable for invoking
Article 50 by 31 March,
“has given valuable certainty to citizens and
businesses in the UK and across Europe”.
Can the Minister explain precisely what certainty has
been given to the millions of EU citizens living in the
UK, and those UK citizens living in the EU? The
Government’s Statement says that they will,
“work closely with the people and Administrations of
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as we move
forward”.
Can he tell the House exactly what form that commitment
will take over the period between now and 31 March?
Finally, in view of the Government’s reluctance to
involve Parliament in triggering Article 50, can the
Minister confirm that as the negotiations unfold the UK
Parliament will, as has been promised, receive
information on their content and progress to at least
the same extent as the European Parliament will be
informed about progress by the EU Commission?
-
I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their
statements—that revealing statement, indeed, which I
will come back to. Let me first pick up the noble
Baroness’s point about the process the Government have
followed to date. It is clear, as I have repeated at
this Dispatch Box and as my right honourable friend the
Secretary of State has repeated at the Dispatch Box in
the other place, that the Government believed in the
use of the royal prerogative on this matter from 23
June. We made our case to the High Court and we believe
that this is of considerable constitutional
significance. It obviously has an impact on the
triggering of Article 50, but goes beyond that. There
was a point at which we believed that we needed to
clarify this and have the certainty of the proper way
forward. That is why we took the action that we did.
As regards the plan, last week my right honourable
friend the Prime Minister set out our approach and
answered in considerable depth and detail questions
that a number of your Lordships and Members of the
other place, including those on the Labour Benches,
have legitimately been asking. We have set out our
approach. Let me just set out what we have said because
the issue here is one of outcomes, is it not? It is
what we are intending to achieve in the negotiations.
For the avoidance of doubt, let me list for your
Lordships what the Prime Minister said. She said that
we will leave the single market. She set out our aims
as regards customs arrangements. She said that we would
no longer be a part of the CET and the CCP. She set out
the type of free-trade agreement that we are after, and
a broader partnership on issues such as justice and
home affairs. She set out our wish for closer
co-operation on international issues. She said that we
wished no longer to be part of a European Court of
Justice but recognise that most international
agreements require some form of dispute recognition.
She said that we aim to negotiate such an agreement
within two years but that we want a smooth
transition—an implementation phase, as many treaties
have. She said—the noble Lord, , asked about this—that
we wish to have a speedy resolution to the issue of EU
UK nationals and that we would raise it as soon as we
could. She said that we wish to take control of
immigration, to protect workers’ rights and to bring EU
law into UK law, which we will do under the great
repeal Bill. She said that we will maintain the common
travel area with Ireland and that we will continue to
co-operate with EU partners on science, research and
development.
The Prime Minister set out in some depth and detail
what is in our national interest; our overall approach
to the key issues; what we intend to achieve, and what
happens if we do not achieve it. The only answers we
have not given fulfil the principle that I have set out
from this Dispatch Box from day one: it must be in the
Government’s interests not to give away anything that
could be in the national interest when it comes to the
negotiations.
Regarding the reaction to the speech last week, let me
remind your Lordships what our European partners have
said. Have they said that they wish more clarity? The
German Chancellor said, “The Prime Minister has given
us a clear impression of how the UK wants to move
forward”. The Belgian Prime Minister said, “The Prime
Minister has clarified the future for her country”. The
Hungarian Foreign Minister welcomed the speech as
“straightforward, open and clear”. The Slovakian Prime
Minister congratulated the Prime Minister for
clarifying the position of the British Government: “It
brings a clear signal about the direction the British
Government want to take”. That is the Government’s
position. That is how we set out the approach and this
is the way we are going.
On what the noble Lord, , said, I know it has
been his party’s position for some time to have a
second referendum. For those who wish to have
certainty, there is nothing worse than having a second
referendum at the end of this process. Secondly, I
would gently point out to the noble Lord and to noble
Lords around him that we in this House, as an unelected
Chamber, need to tread with considerable care on this
issue as we proceed.
The process of the Bill will be a matter for the usual
channels, and I expect there will be a Business
Statement in due course. There will indeed be room for
scrutiny of the Bill and, on that note, I will sit
down.
-
(Con)
My Lords, the time for Back-Bench questions has been
extended to 40 minutes. I invite your Lordships to
observe the usual rotational sequence—or Buggins’s
turn, for want of a better phrase. Of course, the
shorter the interventions, the more contributions there
can be.
3.27 pm
-
(Con)
My Lords, your Lordships’ Constitution Committee
expressed the view that it would be constitutionally
appropriate that Parliament should be consulted before
the triggering of Article 50. We therefore welcome the
outcome of the Supreme Court judgment, even though we
might not have chosen the route whereby the Government
approached it. I congratulate my right honourable
friend the Lord Advocate for Scotland on winning the
Supreme Court’s unanimous rejection—including by two
Scottish judges—of the Scottish Government’s attempt to
extend their powers into reserved matters, even though
the risk of that was engendered by somewhat unwise
wording in the Scotland Act 2016. Are there other
implications for the Sewel convention in the future
handling of Brexit?
Although I believe the Government were right and it was
their duty to pursue the appeal to obtain clarity on
the position of the royal prerogative overall, can my
noble friend confirm that the royal prerogative is
unaffected by the judgment, except in so far as it
affects the triggering of Article 50?
-
I thank my noble friend for the work of his committee
and take this opportunity to thank all the European
Select Committees in this House and the other
committees that are making such a valuable contribution
in scrutinising Brexit. Long may this continue.
It is very useful that the ruling gave such clarity on
the position of the devolved Administrations. It is a
96-page ruling. Our lawyers are studying it in depth
and detail. I will not go further at this juncture
about the royal prerogative; nor, likewise, about the
Sewel convention.
-
(LD)
My Lords, would the Minister be kind enough to provide
the House with the Government’s best estimate of the
percentage of people in Britain who voted for the hard
Brexit chosen by the Prime Minister?
-
My Lords, I dispute that the Prime Minister has chosen
what others label a hard Brexit. I know noble Lords on
the Liberal Democrat Benches may disagree. The view of
those on the Labour Benches in the other place and,
certainly of the Government, is that we are negotiating
a new partnership and a free trade agreement with our
European partners. This approach is one that honours
and respects the views of the British people, as set
out in the referendum. They voted to leave the European
Union. The noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, is shaking his
head. I am very sorry but that is what we are going to
do.
“It is our duty as those who serve the public to make
sure the country does the best it can with the decision
they have taken. In. Out. When the British people have
spoken you do what they command”.
I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown,
agrees with that because those were his own words on
the night of the referendum.
-
(CB)
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for
repeating the Statement. When the Prime Minister spoke
at Lancaster House, in a very welcome statement right
at the end of her speech she said that both Houses
would have an opportunity to pronounce on the outcome.
Will the legislation that the Government bring forward
encapsulate that undertaking in some form? Will the
time available for both Houses to comment on the
outcome be sufficient?
-
I believe we will have sufficient time. On the content
of the Bill, I have to say to the noble Lord that good
things come to those who wait.
-
(Lab)
My Lords, is it not clear that one speech by the Prime
Minister at Lancaster House—not even in Parliament—full
of aims and intentions, does not constitute a coherent
Brexit plan? It does not safeguard national well-being,
nor does it begin to satisfy the requirements of
parliamentary scrutiny. Will the Government now heed
and implement the unanimous recommendation of the House
of Commons Select Committee on Brexit in seeking a
White Paper to put before both Houses of Parliament
that will give proper detail to negotiating priorities
and, crucially, specify how the Government’s commitment
to conclude a comprehensive free trade agreement can
feasibly be fulfilled by the end of the two-year
negotiation triggered by Article 50—in the Minister’s
own words—given that Article 218 of the treaty on the
functioning of the European Union will require the
assent of 27 member states, 37 regional and national
parliaments and the European Parliament?
-
The noble Lord speaks with considerable experience of
the EU, and I absolutely heed that. I have little to
add to what I said a moment ago about the plan. The
noble Lord raised a number of points in his question.
With regard to the timeframe, we are approaching this
from a unique position. We have been a member of the EU
for over 40 years and, as such, many of its laws and
regulations are deeply embedded in our way of life.
Therefore, unlike other member states that have
negotiated agreements with the EU, we are starting from
a position not just of convergence but of being
completely identical to the EU. This puts us in a great
position for getting to a position where we can reach
such an agreement, which I believe is in the interests
of our country and the EU.
On safeguarding the prosperity of this country, the
position that the Prime Minister set out in her lengthy
speech last week will do just that. It will be a matter
for negotiation but we are seeking to achieve the
freest and most frictionless access to European
markets, which I believe is something that the
also agrees with,
which is extremely welcome.
-
(Con)
Will my noble friend accept that I welcome this
Statement and this procedure—although, frankly, it
would have been rather better if it had been earlier,
and indeed it would have been a lot less expensive? But
that is by the way.
I ask him to answer two questions arising. First, can
he confirm that HMG can now get on with discussing free
trade arrangements and similar trade-smoothing
arrangements with all the large markets of the world,
regardless of any rulings that may come from Brussels
about limitations on doing so? Can we get on with that
informally? Secondly, when it comes to objectives, is
not the point that we cannot possibly set our final
objectives in stone when there are so many doubts about
what the rest of the EU really wants? As the noble
Lord, , has just
reminded us, there are many voices. If we do not know
what they really want from the system, how could it be
right to set our own objectives firmly in stone in
advance?
-
I start by thanking my noble friend for his advice and
wisdom in many fora. He says lawyers are expensive.
Yes, some lawyers are expensive, as a number of your
Lordships will know. As regards free trade agreements,
the key word he used was “informally”. We are bound by
the duty of sincere co-operation, which means that at
this juncture we should not be entering into formal
negotiations with non-EU states. It is absolutely right
that we continue to honour the spirit and the letter of
that because we have said all along—and we shall
continue to abide by this—that we wish to negotiate in
good faith with our European partners.
As regards the objectives, clearly we have set out our
overall aims. The Prime Minister did so last week.
There will be a matter of negotiation and it will be a
matter of negotiation among our European partners. As
with any negotiation, we shall see what emerges from
that.
-
(PC)
My Lords, is the Minister, in referring to the
commitment of the Government to work closely with the
devolved Administrations, aware of the opportunity
arising from the White Paper published yesterday
morning here in London by the First Minister Of Wales,
, with support from
Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats, based on the
possibility of a single market linkage scheme? This
might well meet the difficulties being faced in both
Scotland and Northern Ireland. Will he give a firm
assurance that the details of these proposals will be
considered carefully?
-
I thank the noble Lord for that. It gives me a good
opportunity to say yes, absolutely. If he would like to
meet me to discuss it I should be happy to do so. The
proposals issued by the Scottish Government are also
being given careful consideration. We shall continue to
co-operate and consult with representatives of the
Northern Ireland Assembly and the devolved
Administrations in Scotland and Wales. As I said last
week, despite events in Northern Ireland, we shall
ensure that the views of the Northern Irish politicians
and their representatives are properly heeded.
-
(CB)
A strong theme running through the Statement is that
the British people have given an instruction that must
be acted on. Indeed, the Minister himself has just
talked about a command that must be obeyed. How does
this square with the Burkean understanding of our
representative democracy whereby Members of Parliament
are elected not to carry out the commands of people but
to use their best judgment for the well-being of the
United Kingdom as a whole?
-
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for that
contribution. I would be happy to have a long debate
about the role of referenda in our constitution. We had
such a debate when the referendum Bill was passing
through this House and the other place. As I said in
the Statement, it was a choice that the representatives
of the people made to give this choice to the British
people. We could start pinging quotations from Burke
between us. I could quote back to him from what I seem
to remember was a 1911 lecture by Dicey in which he
said that the role of referenda as trumped the role of
party and extolled its virtues, but maybe we could
leave that for another day.
-
(LD)
The leave campaign spent a lot of time emphasising the
importance of parliamentary sovereignty. We fought a
civil war 360 years ago about parliamentary sovereignty
versus the royal prerogative and, as the Government
know, the parliamentary side won. We fought two wars in
the 20th century during which Parliament went on
sitting and scrutinising the Government and debating
government policy in the way they conducted the war. We
defended parliamentary democracy. I do not see how this
Government can say that they cannot fully engage
Parliament and inform Parliament on something that is
not as dreadful as a war but has major implications for
the economy, the political system, the foreign policy
and the security of this country to carry Parliament
with them, because we are a parliamentary democracy.
-
I heed some of the points that the noble Lord is
making, but I simply point out the process that was
gone through. There was a general election in which the
Conservative Party promised to hold a referendum. Then
this House and the other place passed the legislation
to give that choice to the British people. The British
people then made the decision. Now we will have a
series of votes: one on the triggering of Article 50;
another on the great repeal Bill to repeal the ECA;
others will follow on both secondary and primary
legislation—I suspect that we will be here for a number
of hours debating those, to say the least. After that,
at the end of the process, as the noble Lord, Lord
Hannay, said, there will be a vote on the treaty.
That is how we will continue to engage Parliament. It
is a substantial process. Let me repeat a point that my
right honourable friend the Secretary of State for
Exiting the European Union has made many times. It
would be completely unacceptable for the European
Parliament to get more information than this House and
the other place. Therefore, we will endeavour to ensure
that this House gets as much information as the
European Parliament.
-
(Con)
My Lords, I am sure that we are reassured by those last
comments, but does my noble friend accept that those of
us who were disappointed by the result of the advisory
referendum nevertheless accept that the constitutional
position of this House is inferior to that of the
elected House, and that it is therefore important that
we do not take action in this House that seeks to
frustrate the will of the elected House?
-
I thank my noble friend for those very wise words. I
heed them and very much welcome the statement that the
noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made some time ago that the
Labour Benches do not seek to block the triggering of
Article 50.
-
(Lab)
My Lords, following that question from the noble Lord,
, my heart and
emotions are with Edmund Burke, but my political head
tells me that we are in 2017, with an extraordinarily
delicate situation in terms of the way in which the
British people regard politicians of all ilks and the
establishment. Would it not be foolish in the extreme
if this House, as an unelected body, placed itself in
confrontation with the bulk of the British people, many
of whom will have voted to stay in the European Union
but would find it inexplicable if this House blocked in
any way the forthcoming single clause Bill to allow the
Government to implement Article 50? It would be
unthinkable to do so. I appeal to your Lordships’ House
not to place itself in confrontation with the British
people.
-
I thank the noble Lord for those extremely wise words.
I concur with him absolutely. As I said, the Government
are intent on delivering the outcome of the referendum,
and we will see that through.
-
(CB)
My Lords, would the Minister like to hazard a guess as
to whether provision for a post-negotiation referendum
would be within the scope of an Article 50 Bill?
-
I think the noble Lord answers the question himself by
asking whether I would like to hazard a guess. I do not
like guessing at the Dispatch Box.
-
(Lab)
I welcome the clarity of the court’s decision, which is
good and desirable, but should not have been necessary
because, just as the Minister says that the rule of law
is very important, so too is the supremacy of
Parliament. That made the first application to court
unnecessary, in my view. I go to what I think is a
crucial issue. Recently, the Prime Minister and one or
two other Ministers have been making the point that the
end product must be a very close partnership between
the UK and EU. What has troubled me throughout this
process has been people talking as if that is of minor
importance. We do not know how these negotiations will
pan out, but I know that if the EU and the UK do not
have a close partnership economically and politically,
the only people who will benefit are those who do not
want the European Union to succeed and are not friends
of the United Kingdom.
-
The noble Lord makes a good point which I endorse and
echo. Let me repeat what I said at the Dispatch Box
last week and the Prime Minister said in her speech. It
is absolutely in our interests, as the noble Lord has
implied, that we continue to see a strong, stable and
prosperous European Union, and that we continue to
collaborate closely and co-operate wherever possible.
The intent behind the approach the Prime Minister set
out in is to form a new partnership along those lines.
It is therefore not in our interests to see instability
across Europe nor to see Europe, in the words of the
noble Lord, falling apart in some way.
-
(Con)
The answer to the Burkeian point is surely that we have
not been elected to anything. On that basis, it would
be unthinkable for us to frustrate the will of the
people at whatever stage.
-
I am delighted that consensus is breaking out between
this side of the House and the Benches opposite on this
point. I do hope that other noble Lords will bear that
in mind.
-
(Lab)
I do not want to upset anybody but the reality is that
this House is nothing more than a very large
sub-committee of the other place. We do not have the
last word—that lies with the elected House. The only
real function we have when revising legislation—and
this is misunderstood outside—is to ask the other place
to think again. The means we have for doing that is
sending amendments. It would be very useful if, when we
debate this Bill and there are opposing views and we
ask the other place to think again, we do not have
Ministers, or anybody else, talking about
constitutional crises. This place cannot have the last
word. A Government defeat in your Lordships’ House is
simply a request to the Commons to look at the issue
again—that is all it is.
-
I agree with the noble Lord but although I am a
relative newcomer to your Lordships’ House I certainly
would not call it a sub-committee. I believe that this
House performs a valuable role in scrutinising
legislation and, as I have said all along, in kicking
the tyres of government policy to see that it is both
roadworthy and does the right thing. That is something
the Government wish to see right the way through the
process of Brexit and I am delighted with, and thankful
for, the contribution your Lordships have made so far.
-
(Con)
Does my noble friend accept that if Parliament were to
accept the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, to
treat the referendum as advisory and then decided that
this country should not leave the EU, there would be no
option for those of us who were in the majority in
voting to leave other than to take to the streets and
probably start breaking things?
-
My Lords, I can only say that I very much hope that
that does not happen. Considering the comments that
your Lordships have made and the very constructive
approach of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I am sure
that we will avoid it.
-
(CB)
I understand that all the national parliaments in the
European Union will be requested to ratify this
process. If any of them votes against it, will that in
anyway complicate Brexit?
-
That is a very interesting point. We need to be clear
about the processes for ratification. The noble Lord,
Lord Kerr, who I do not think is here, is the author of
Article 50 and is bound to correct me but as I
understand it Article 50 sets out one process and there
may be another process for the final treaty. That
process could be mixed if it is an extensive deal, or
not. So, there are a number of routes forward on this
point.
-
(Lab)
My Lords, the refrain we have heard time after time is,
“The people have decided”. Does the Minister not agree
that as the weeks and months go by, simply saying, “The
people decided this, the people decided that”, will
hardly be satisfactory, especially when the debate
comes to tariffs and specifics? Does the Minister agree
that answering every question in that way over the next
year will simply not wash?
-
I am sorry but I have to gently disagree with noble
Lord on this point. As I said, we did not simply arrive
at this situation through the people’s decision.
Representatives in this place and, most notably, the
other place, made decisions and voted on
legislation—especially the decision to give the British
people the choice in the referendum. That is how this
was decided.
As to the specifics, we are getting to the nub of the
matter here. If we start having debates in this House
about the process of negotiation on certain levels of
tariffs, or other such things, that would be a
considerable gift to those on the other side of the
negotiating table. I say again: we must ensure that we
do not get to that situation. We will, of course, give
further information where we can, but we have to guard
the national interest.
-
The
Does the Minister agree that the Bill which will come
to this House is essentially about process, not
outcomes? The way we handle our processes is different
from how we may argue about outcomes at the end of this
whole two-year period. The use of language which may
occasionally sound threatening is very unhelpful if, at
the end of the two-year period we are to end up with a
country which can go forward in a reconciled,
prosperous and flourishing way. I hope the Minister
agrees that those who, like the judges, have quite
rightly come to an unbiased and impartial opinion,
should be defended against criticism, as should the
person who brought the case. We need to take our
processes calmly and quietly, without issuing threats
and with an eye to the unity of this country.
-
I entirely endorse every word said by the most reverend
Primate. I completely agree about the substance of the
Bill: this is about the process. That is made quite
clear in the summary of the judgment itself. Regarding
language, we need to try and build a national
consensus, as far as possible, around the approach we
are taking and intemperate language will certainly not
help that. We will disagree, in this House and in the
other place, but we need to respect where others are
coming from while respecting the views of the British
people as expressed in the referendum. The most
reverend Primate is absolutely right about the process
we have just gone through. Due process was followed;
individuals, completely at liberty to exercise their
rights, took the decision to bring a case and it was
heard. That is their right; the court has spoken and we
will now respect its judgment.
-
(Con)
Does my noble friend agree that the analysis made by
the noble Lord, , about this
House and how we relate to the other place is
absolutely right? Building on the theme raised by the
right reverend Primate, we need to bear it in mind over
the next few months that a lot of people who voted for
Brexit—and people who did not necessarily vote to leave
but who are behind the change that underpins the
referendum—will be looking to the motives of this House
when we table amendments and debate them. Does my noble
friend agree?
-
I thank my noble friend for her thoughtful
contribution, with which I entirely agree and which
builds on what I was saying. We need to proceed with
respect for differing opinions and for the outcome of
the referendum itself. We need to continue to build a
national consensus around our approach in which people
are not questioning the motives of those who wish to
debate the issue.
-
(LD)
My Lords, is it not the case that, in a democracy,
there are those who agree and those who disagree with a
decision. Some 48% of the population disagreed with the
way the Government are now going. Is there not
democratic legitimacy in standing up for those 48% who
voted against?
-
My Lords, I disagree on the basic principle. The
Government wish to deliver on the outcome of the
referendum, pure and simple, and that is what we intend
to do.
-
(Con)
Will my noble friend confirm that the Conservative
manifesto at the 2015 election contained a clear
commitment to implement the outcome of the referendum,
whatever that outcome was? Surely the conduct of
negotiations on international matters is a matter for
the Executive, with Parliament then to scrutinise their
outcome? That is the way we have done things throughout
our history.
-
My noble friend knows a lot about our nation’s history
and he is absolutely right. As I said, we will furnish
Parliament with the necessary information to do that.
Surprisingly enough, I have the Conservative manifesto
in my folder. On page 72 it says, very clearly:
“We will hold that in-out referendum before the end of
2017 and respect the outcome”.
-
(Lab)
As the Minister has the manifesto with him, can he
quote to us what that same manifesto said about our
commitment to the European single market?
-
Yes, I am happy to do so. That was in relation to the
negotiations that we wished to conduct. We have
conducted them. Now that the people have said in the
referendum what they wish to do, we are going to leave
the EU—and in that process we will leave the single
market.
-
(UUP)
My Lords, in the Statement the Secretary of State
indicated that there would be consultation with the
devolved institutions. The Minister will be aware that
the Northern Ireland Executive are out of business, and
while some Ministers are hanging on, they have no power
to speak on behalf of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
How then do Her Majesty’s Government intend during this
critical period to ensure that there is proper
consultation with the parties, given the fact that even
on the best estimates there will be no Executive in
place before Article 50 is triggered?
-
The noble Lord raises an extremely good point. As I
intimated earlier, we are taking due steps to ensure
that the views of the Northern Irish people are heard
in this lull. I am happy to meet the noble Lord and
discuss that—with my ministerial colleague, , who is also
intimately involved—and to explain exactly what we are
doing.
-
(LD)
My Lords, can the Minister explain to me why his
Government are so afraid to put the final deal agreed
back to the British people for their vote? If the
Government were confident that it would be a deal that
the British people felt fulfilled the promises and
commitments made, and was good for the future of the
country, they would be confident of an overwhelming
victory in that referendum. Is it because they believe
the British people would be so disappointed and feel
such a sense of betrayal that they dare not put the
final deal back to them? Is that the rationale?
-
No, my Lords, I dispute that, because I do not think
the British people will feel a sense of betrayal, given
the approach that the Prime Minister set out in her
speech last week.
-
(Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend welcome the fact that
the Supreme Court, while asking Parliament to take the
decision to trigger Article 50, also made it very clear
that it was not its own job to decide how that Bill
should be phrased or how that question should be put to
Parliament? Was that not a helpful constitutional
clarification?
-
It was indeed. There are a number of important
constitutional clarifications on that point, and on the
Sewel convention. As I have said, our lawyers are
studying the judgment in full, and I am sure there will
be other issues that noble Lords may wish to raise in
due course, once your Lordships too have had the
opportunity to read all 96 pages.
-
(CB)
My Lords, since the Minister has set out clearly the
process—we are discussing the process and not the
outcome—what will be the process after the European
Parliament rejects the agreement with the United
Kingdom?
-
The noble Lord is now jumping several steps ahead, and
making a big assumption. I am sure that the Members of
the European Parliament, too, will see sense when this is
presented to them.
-
(Lab)
My Lords, has the Minister sought any clarity on the
position of the Liberal Democrats, who have been so
passionately in favour of decisions being made on a
proportionate basis of votes, and who now seem to
consider that 48% is a majority? Could he also clear up
with them, while he is at it—as they were so strongly
opposed, in the initial stages, to having one referendum,
yet now seem to want two—whether two would be sufficient
for them? Or maybe we would need more after that.
-
The noble Lord makes a very good point. I must say that
it does not seem very liberal, or very democratic, to say
that the views of the majority should be ignored—and I
very much hope that the Liberal Democrats will help us
ensure the speedy passage of the legislation that the
Government will put forward in due course.
-
(UKIP)
My Lords—
-
(LD)
My Lords—
-
(Con)
My Lords—
-
(Con)
My Lords, I think fairness indicates that we expect to
hear from UKIP and then from the Lib Dem Benches.
-
My Lords, can I press the noble Lord on his answer to the
noble Lord, ? What happens
if we get to the end of this process and the European
Parliament does not agree the result? At that point would
the Government be prepared to consider the sanctity, or
otherwise, of Article 50? In that respect, are the
Government aware of the article in MoneyWeek on 21
November from Dr Ingrid de Frankopan, who advises merely
following the first clause of Article 50, which says that
a country can leave the European Union,
“in accordance with its own constitutional requirements”?
Our constitutional requirements could be an Act of
Parliament and the will of the British people, so at that
point will we still feel bound by Article 50? It is,
after all, only a clause in an international treaty, and
we are covered for our withdrawal from that treaty by the
Vienna convention on treaties. Will the Government get
ready to flex their muscles if the European Parliament
behaves as unreasonably as it usually does?
-
I am not going to get into hypotheticals, as I said to
the noble Lord, , a moment ago.
The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, threw a phrase into his
question when he said that Article 50 is only a clause,
as if it is something that we could ignore. That has not
been the Government’s position all along. We believe that
we need to abide by and observe our obligations and
responsibilities as set out in the treaties that we have
signed up to as a member of the EU. That is what we will
continue to do. As regards the end of the process, the
process has not even begun so I am not even going to
start to hypothesise as to where we might be towards the
end of it.
-
My Lords, as the noble Lord has rightly pointed out, we
must respect the fact that the majority—52%—voted to
leave the European Union. However, it is in everyone’s
interest—even the 48% who voted against—to know how we
are going to do that, and what that means for them. Many
of the people who are speaking want to know more about
the implications. People out there in the country are
very concerned. They feel insecure about their future,
their jobs and their children. The young people in
particular to whom I have spoken express great concern
about what the future holds for them. Surely we are
talking about process. The implications were not on the
ballot paper. No one said anything about leaving the
single market and what the implications of that would be.
No one ever mentioned that. In fact, when it was
mentioned, it was dismissed as scaremongering by the
leavers, so very many questions were never answered
properly during the campaign that now need to be answered
and addressed. My next point is very important. Will the
noble Lord put on record that the abuse Gina Miller has
had to endure—I heard her on the radio today speaking of
death threats and the like—has no place in our society?
-
I completely agree with the noble Baroness that such
abuse has absolutely no place in our society. As I said
to the most reverend Primate, there is absolutely no
reason for that. The court was simply doing what it is
there to do, which is to hear a case. People are entitled
to bring those kind of cases and they should continue to
be entitled to do that. That is what the basis of our
rule of law is all about and we must do all we can to
protect it. As regards the first part of the noble
Baroness’s question, I dispute what she is saying in the
sense that I believe that the implications of leaving the
European Union were set out pretty clearly in the
referendum campaign by both sides. Indeed, I have
somewhere here long lists of those on both sides of the
campaign saying what a vote to leave would mean,
especially that a vote to leave would mean leaving the
single market. Therefore, I do not believe that that was
unclear. As regards the uncertainty, I concur: obviously
there will be uncertainty in a period of change such as
this. The Government are doing what they can to set out
wherever possible how we will bring certainty to the
situation that we are in. As I said a moment or two ago,
the whole thinking behind the great repeal Bill is to
port EU law into UK law, so that on day one we are
certain about where we stand. I think that is a good
approach to follow and I hope that over the weeks and
months ahead people will understand that better than they
may do at the moment.
-
My Lords, I very much welcome the fact that, in the
Statement, the Government have made it absolutely clear
that they respect the judiciary’s independence and accept
this judgment, and have done so promptly. It is, of
course, a sign of a functioning democracy that the
Government, however irksome that they might find it, will
lose cases from time to time. Turning to the democratic
legitimacy of the referendum, this was an Act of
Parliament giving a vote to the people. Does the Minister
agree with me that it is a somewhat imaginative
interpretation of that vote that what the people of the
country were really saying was that they wanted a second
referendum?
-
I entirely agree with my noble friend. As I said before,
a second referendum would lace a situation that the noble
Baroness spoke of a moment ago—in which people feel
uncertain—with even more uncertainty. This is absolutely
not what we wish to have.
-
(CB)
My Lords, may I return to the role of Parliament? The
Government failed today in the Supreme Court in their
first attempt to circumnavigate Parliament at the first
stage of this lengthy process. I entirely agree that
Article 50 must be triggered; I also agree that the
Government must be allowed the freedom to negotiate, but
does the Minister accept that that cannot mean that
Parliament—as the country is faced with the most
challenging set of issues since the Second World War—has
no role? There must be a role for Parliament over these
next two years in meaningfully discussing the many
different choices that this country faces.
-
I thank the noble Lord for that question. I disagree
somewhat with his characterisation of our approach. We
were not trying to circumnavigate Parliament: we believed
that there was a case for using the royal prerogative to
trigger Article 50. At any rate, we are where we are:
Parliament is now going to have a vote. In regard to the
role of Parliament going forward, there will obviously be
that vote; there will be the vote, as I said a moment
ago, on the great repeal Bill, and there will be votes on
the subsequent pieces of legislation, of which, I expect,
there will be a considerable number, both primary and
secondary. Then, as my right honourable friend the Prime
Minister said in her speech last week, there will be a
vote in both Houses on the treaty. Meanwhile, there is
nothing to stop your Lordships from having other debates.
I very much look forward to being at this Dispatch Box on
Thursday, to have a debate with the noble Baroness on
similar subjects to those that we have been discussing
this afternoon.
-
(Con)
My Lords, I very much welcome the decision of the
Government to import the acquis communautaire into UK
law. However, in the event that we withdraw from the
jurisdiction of the Court of Justice and there is a
dispute on the interpretation of the acquis communautaire
as it will apply in English or Scottish law at that time,
which body will interpret and give a ruling on that
dispute?
-
My Lords, the UK Supreme Court would interpret at the end
of the day if it were to come to that, but the noble
Baroness makes a very good point. I can assure her and
the rest of your Lordships that when it comes to the
great repeal Bill, we will set out our approach,
hopefully in considerable detail, in regard to all these
issues.
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