Asked by
To ask His Majesty's Government what assessment they have made of
the police's recording of non-criminal hate incidents.
The Minister of State, Home Office ( of Flint) (Lab)
It is vital that the police monitor non- crime hate incidents
when proportionate and necessary to do so to help prevent serious
crimes. The police focus, however, is on keeping our streets safe
and protecting communities, and we will balance protecting
communities from hate with the fundamental right of free
speech.
(Non-Afl)
My Lords, so-called non-crime hate incidents may have been
introduced for perfectly good reasons after the Macpherson
inquiry, but last year the police recorded more than 13,000,
including some against schoolchildren and others for utterly
absurd reasons—I myself was investigated for calling Hamas
Islamists. Meanwhile, just 2% of rapes and 4% of burglaries lead
to someone being charged, shoplifting has been virtually
decriminalised and there is an epidemic of mobile phone theft on
the streets of London. The police and the public think all this
is utterly absurd. Will Ministers set up an independent review to
ensure that the police are dealing with real crimes with real
victims?
of Flint (Lab)
The collection of non-crime hate incident information is
important because it helps to get a picture of potential wider
crime in due course. But make no mistake: this Government's
priority is securing the streets, protecting the public and
improving neighbourhood policing. The noble Lord will know that
we are very clear that we support action on rape and sexual
offences, and we are going to support action on burglary and put
in place neighbourhood policing. Even today, the Home Secretary
has announced half a billion pounds of extra support for
policing, over and above what will be announced in December's
final settlement, to secure neighbourhood policing and tackle the
very issues the noble Lord mentioned.
(Con)
My Lords, last year, I spoke in the debate on the new code of
practice and urged the then Conservative Minister to require that
each police force, among other things, report to the Minister on
how many new incidents of non-crime hate speech had been recorded
in the previous 12 months, and every year thereafter. Can the
Minister tell us—and if not, write to me—whether this is
happening, and if it is not, will he undertake to put such a
requirement in place?
of Flint (Lab)
The Home Secretary has today announced potential reforms to the
monitoring of police performance and what they need to monitor.
If the noble Lord looks at what the Home Secretary said, he will
see that there will be an ongoing process of monitoring police
performance, and as part of that, the recording of non-crime hate
incidents will undoubtedly be a key issue.
(Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that in the last year of the
last Blair Government, 207,000 on-the-spot fines were made,
compared to 7,200 in the last year of the previous Government?
Does he agree that we need to get back to community policing and
to Labour ways if we are going to cut anti-social behaviour?
of Flint (Lab)
One of the key elements of the Labour manifesto which will be
brought forward this year by my right honourable friend the Home
Secretary is establishing work to improve neighbourhood policing.
Potentially, 13,000 officers will be put on to neighbourhood
policing in order to build community strength and, in accordance
with my noble friend's wishes, to look at low-level crime, which
is nevertheless an extremely important issue to the people who
are victims of it.
(CB)
My Lords, I support nearly everything that the noble Lord, Lord
Austin, said. The recording of hate crime was a well-intended
change, for the reasons he gave, but the definition of a crime is
objective and the definition of hate crime is subjective. During
the time this has been in place, online crime and online hate
crime have grown massively, and the application of the hate crime
definition has been inconsistent. I agree that it is time to
review how this has been applied, which may therefore allow time
for the police to visit crime scenes. That would not be a bad
idea, because that is the best chance of detecting it.
of Flint (Lab)
Non-crime hate incidents are not treated as crime, and they are
not a big part of daily police work. The College of
Policing—which the noble Lord will know well—and the inspectorate
are making it clear that there needs to be a common-sense and
consistent approach to the way in which they are recorded. But I
hope I can assure the noble Lord that this Government are about
securing additional police support to tackle the policing of
neighbourhood crime and to give local support to the big issues
of shoplifting and burglary, as well as domestic violence and
violence against women and girls. That is a core part of the
mission, and he can hold the Government to account and rest
assured that we will do that over the course of the next four and
a half years.
(LD)
My Lords, the new code of practice highlights the need to protect
free speech. However, the police watchdog has raised concerns
that officers handling these reports lack the training, capacity
and experience to make such complex decisions and that this is
placing too much responsibility on them. What are the Government
doing to address these concerns?
of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for those comments. I hope I
can reassure her that the College of Policing and the
inspectorate will be examining these issues as part of the police
performance review that my right honourable friend the Home
Secretary is initiating. There are important matters to examine
regarding how this works, but I go back to the first principle.
We have made it clear that our priorities are safer streets and
neighbourhood policing, but that NCHIs are part of building a
bigger picture of what potential hate incidents are—against not
only people's religion but their sexual preference. They are not
acceptable, they need to be monitored and lessons can be learned
to improve policing responses in the long term.
of Blidworth (Con)
My Lords, this week the Prime Minister urged the police to
concentrate on what matters most to their communities rather than
being drawn into investing resources in tackling non-crime hate
incidents. What steps does the Minister plan to take to send the
pendulum back towards investigating real crime?
of Flint (Lab)
How about the half a billion pounds that was announced today by
the Home Secretary? How about the focus on neighbourhood
policing, with 13,000 police officers? How about the record
levels of investment in policing, which were cut under the
Government in which the noble Lord served? How about getting back
to the levels of police officers that existed when I was Police
Minister in 2009-10? That might help to deal with some of the
issues the noble Lord addresses. He knows the serious issues that
this Government have pledged to address.
(Lab)
My Lords, statistics have been essential in assessing and
understanding the levels of anti-Semitism in this country, as
endorsed by two all-party inquiries and by evidence from every
major Jewish community organisation. Can I entice the Minister
into a meeting to discuss how we can further improve the
system?
of Flint (Lab)
I would never resist a meeting with my noble friend , and he can have one. I always
say that it is better to have an open door than to have one
kicked down.
(Con)
My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of
Member's interests as chair of the College of Policing. Did not
the recording of non-crime hate incidents have its genesis in the
Macpherson review, as the noble Lord, Lord Austin, said? But that
was a quarter of a century ago and since then, we have had the
expansion of hate crime laws, the explosion of social media and
the very heavily contested space of online comment. Is it not
right for the Home Secretary to call for a common-sense approach
to this? We may need a rebalancing, so that the police can focus
on the job they are meant to do and not be drawn into the
policing of mere disputes, which is bad for public confidence in
the service.
of Flint (Lab)
I hope the noble Lord does not take this the wrong way, but I pay
tribute to him for his work as chair of the College of
Policing.
I have tried to say to the House that non-crime hate incidents
are there to provide background information. They are not
necessarily leading to prosecution or to crime, but the
background information can be effective in building up a picture
of potential areas where crime may well exist, because people
will overstep the mark into criminal activity. We will try to
look at that in the round, and as part of the review of police
performance, that will be taken into account.
(CB)
My Lords, following what the Minister has just said, why are
children being investigated?
of Flint (Lab)
I cannot give the noble and learned Baroness any detail on the
number of children impacted by any of these hate crimes; however,
I hope that she will accept the principle. I will certainly look
at figures that the department might have regarding the children
involved, and I will write to her, but I hope that the intention
behind the direction in which government policy is going is clear
to the House.
