Shaun Davies (Telford) (Lab) I beg to move, That this House has
considered paternity leave and pay. It is a pleasure to serve under
your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. My first Westminster Hall debate
is being chaired by a neighbouring Member of Parliament. It is a
delight to be here. I know that families come in all shapes and
sizes and that paternity leave is not just about fathers. I will
refer primarily to dads in my speech, but the points that I will be
making...Request free trial
(Telford) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered paternity leave and pay.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard.
My first Westminster Hall debate is being chaired by a
neighbouring Member of Parliament. It is a delight to be
here.
I know that families come in all shapes and sizes and that
paternity leave is not just about fathers. I will refer primarily
to dads in my speech, but the points that I will be making relate
and apply to all families, of all shapes and sizes. I stand here
as a dad, a parent, and an MP who believes that parenthood
matters to children, families, employers, the economy and our
country.
The UK currently has the worst paternity pay and leave in Europe
and among the worst in the OECD. Fathers, if they are
eligible—about 20% of them are not—can take a maximum of two
weeks' paid leave, at a maximum rate of £184 a week, which is
less than half the national living wage. In 2023, 605,000 babies
were born in the UK, yet only 195,000 dads received statutory
paternity pay. That is less than one father for every three
children. If we contrast that with the 52 weeks of maternity
leave and 39 weeks of maternity pay, it is clear that our system
needs to be updated for the 21st century.
As a father myself, I do have a vested interest in this issue,
but better paternity rights are not just good for fathers; they
are good for mums and, more importantly, for children. Last week
I was able to speak to a number of parents at an event in
Parliament with the Dad Shift campaign, and I heard from several
dads about the difference that paternity leave—or the lack of
it—had made to their relationships with their young children. I
want to live in a society in which children can see both parents
as caregivers, but for that to happen, it needs to be possible
for both parents to be present during the vital early years.
Evidence shows that the physical and social bonds that are set so
early are critical for babies as they grow up and for the
fathers' connection to the children in later life. One dad I
heard from at the event in Parliament, Simon, suffered from
undiagnosed depression after the birth of his child. That was
made worse by not having the time with his child to establish and
develop that bond.
This is not the 1950s. We can all agree that most men do want to
have relationships with their children, especially during the
early years, but the law does not reflect that. Another dad I
spoke to, George, had a generous employer who gave him more than
the statutory pay and leave, and he spoke glowingly about the
difference that that had made to his mental health and wellbeing,
but also, of course, the balance in the household and his
relationship with his child. It was great to hear that a number
of employers were going above and beyond the statutory minimum,
but as of 2022, 49% of employers provided the minimum statutory
paternity leave.
This matter is simply too important to leave to the whim of
individual employers. Change needs to start within Government and
the public sector. I recently tabled a number of written
questions to Departments, asking how much paternity leave their
staff took on average. The only Department whose staff took more
than the 14 days was the Department for Education. If we look at
other Departments, the figure was 9.6 days in the Department for
Transport and 7.25 days in the Department for Work and Pensions.
The Cabinet Office ranked worst, with 5.7 days. The Government
and the public sector should be exemplary employers, but instead
they are lagging behind some private sector employers. We need as
the first step a signal from the Government and from the public
sector as a whole that this is something that needs to be
improved.
At the Dad Shift event, I heard from mums and dads about the toll
that the segregated system had taken on their careers. Making it
easier for dads to look after the kids also makes it easier for
mums to continue in their workplace—a point that my hon. Friend
the Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) has made so passionately
in the Chamber only this week.
It is morally wrong to pressure women into sacrificing their
career for their family, and it is also a massive productivity
drain. This Government want to restore growth, create jobs and
create wealth. The Centre for Progressive Policy estimates that
closing the gender employment gap in all UK local authorities
could increase economic output by a staggering £23 billion, and
the OECD estimates that three quarters of the gender wage gap in
northern and western Europe is down to the motherhood
penalty.
How many talented women are we losing from the workforce because
they cannot get back into work after lengthy maternity leave? How
much better off could we be if both parents could take leave that
was short enough not to harm their careers but long enough to
support their children? Technically, that is already an option
after the changes that took place in 2015 with shared parental
rights. However, the Government's own analysis found that only 1%
of eligible mothers and only 5% of eligible fathers took shared
parental leave. I heard from one father, Alex, who told me that
the system and process of shared parental leave were so
complicated to navigate that he paid a third party £50 to
complete the forms for him.
Things are about to get better. I am delighted that the
Employment Rights Bill had its Second Reading earlier this week;
it will mark a massive step forward on paternity leave and pay,
expanding eligibility by introducing day one rights to paternity
and parental leave, allowing fathers to take paternity leave
after they have taken shared parental leave, and facilitating a
full review of all parental leave rights. The Government clearly
recognise the importance of the issue and that further steps need
to be taken to address it.
(Stoke-on-Trent Central)
(Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech on an issue that is
clearly important to so many of us. Does he agree that even if
the birth of a child has been straightforward and simple, two
weeks, and the paternity pay that goes with it, passes very
quickly? If there is a complication in the birth—if the mother
becomes ill, for example, or if there are other complications for
the child—the two weeks disappear in the blink of an eye. Then
parents, especially fathers, go back to work, and fathers feel
guilty about not being able to be at home to support that type of
need.
My hon. Friend makes a powerful contribution. My own brother was
born three months premature and my father's ability to be there
was curtailed by the fact that the paternity leave then was
simply not generous enough.
The Employment Rights Bill, which I welcome, goes some way
towards addressing the eligibility problem, but there is more
that we can do. Research by the Centre for Progressive Policy,
Women in Data and Pregnant Then Screwed found that countries with
longer paternity leave have lower gender wage gaps and lower
gender workforce participation gaps than countries such as our
own.
Such leave not only needs to be longer; it also needs to be
better paid. In line with statutory paternity pay, there should
be 90% of earnings for the following six weeks. It needs to be
“use it or lose it” leave—in other words, non-transferrable—to
encourage take-up. Fundamentally, the root problem is the
assumption that there must always be one primary parent. That
scenario will suit some families, but it benefits no one to force
that choice on everyone. The campaign for fair parental leave and
pay is a campaign to normalise co-parenting.
I am making a number of asks of the Minister. I acknowledge his
work on the updating of employment rights across the country; he
should be congratulated for that. However, we are able to go
further and we must not let the good be the enemy of the great.
We must applaud the progress that has been made and affirm that
we can go further. I ask him to ask his Department to review the
rights around parental leave, so that we can have a conversation
about it.
This is the moment for our generation of MPs to drag working
practices into the 21st century, for the benefit of dads, mums,
society and our country, but most of all for the benefit of our
children as they grow up. Let us give British children their dads
back. Let us be pro-growth, pro-worker, pro-business,
pro-children and—importantly—pro-family.
4.39pm
Freddie van Mierlo (Henley and Thame) (LD)
Like the hon. Member for Telford (), I recognise that my
experience of fatherhood is heteronormative and I appreciate that
there are many other forms of families. I will probably end up
repeating some of the excellent points put forward by the hon.
Member, but since they are very good ones I will not hesitate to
repeat them.
My first point is that the paternity system is classist:
white-collar workers generally get much better provision from
their employers. Some workers get up to six months, if they work
in high-demand industries. Contrast that with the provision in
precarious industries and the gig economy and for traditional
blue-collar workers. They tend to get very little indeed: two
weeks' statutory pay or naught if they are self-employed.
Paternity leave is essential to avoid the woman becoming the
default primary care giver. Inequality in the length of parental
leave further entrenches inequalities. On maternal health, I
highlight that receiving only two weeks of paternity pay is
extremely challenging if one's partner or birthing partner has
experienced a traumatic birth, whether that is a C-section or
otherwise. My wife went through a 40-hour labour and also a
really difficult pregnancy with hyperemesis, and that had impacts
on both her physical and mental health. Many other women
experienced the same, and the support of their partner is
essential at that time. As so many people move around the country
these days for work, many people live far away from their
families, so having the father or the partner there is
essential.
The evidence from other countries is clear: the longer the
paternity pay, the better we are at closing gender pay gaps and
the less the impact on the career prospects of the person giving
birth. I end on a riposte to the previous Government for their
shameful response to a petition in the last Parliament on this
topic. Rather than extending paternity leave, the Government
responded to it by simply exalting the benefits of being able to
split the two weeks up and take them at different times. How
generous that is! How useful that is cannot be underestimated—I
am obviously being facetious. The Employment Rights Bill clearly
does not go far enough, but I welcome this debate and the noises
from those on the Government Benches that indicate they will
consider this issue in the future.
Several hon. Members rose—
(in the Chair)
Order. Before I call , I have to impose a
two-minute time limit because of the interest in this debate. It
may be adjusted later.
4.42pm
(Hitchin) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Telford () for securing this important
debate. For many, parenthood is one of the most exciting journeys
of their lives, and one of the most rewarding, too, but speak to
any parent and you will be under no illusions that it is also
bloody hard work. For too many, it is also work that is split in
an unequal and gendered way. We should not shy away from
acknowledging the gendered way in which the cost of that
imbalance is doled out across society. We should also acknowledge
that every child, every parent, every family and every member of
society loses out as a result.
In some cases, biological realities drive imbalances that are
inevitable. As my partner Megan regularly points out to me, if we
do ever have a child together, it will not be me that is likely
doing the bulk of the having. But there are others that are
entirely in our gift. This debate highlights a really important
one: paternity pay.
I have spoken to far too many families, fathers and co-parents
across my constituency who have had to make heartbreaking choices
over the last few years as a result of the current inequity in
parental pay and parental leave—fathers who have had to make the
difficult choice about whether to squander their savings, which
they could barely afford, to stick around for those crucial early
months of their child's upbringing; or parents who have had to
make the difficult choice of taking unpaid leave, which sometimes
can be deeply contested with their employer, or depriving the
mother of the support they need after a C-section while also
going through all the burdens of early parenthood. These are not
choices that anyone should have to make, and we must put that
right.
I welcome the action that the Government have taken already,
particularly their introducing day one rights to paternity leave
and pay, but it is clear we need to do more. I look forward to
working with colleagues across this House and with the Minister
to ensure that, over the course of this Government, we can
deliver that change.
4.44pm
(Lewes) (LD)
I am the father of two young children, and I would not have
missed their first months for anything in the whole world. I am
proud to have been recently appointed chair of the all-party
parliamentary group for childcare and early education, so I have
a big interest in this issue and am keen to work with all parties
on it.
I thank the hon. Member for Telford () for bringing forward this
important issue. I hope the lack of turnout of Opposition Members
is not a reflection of their lack of interest in this very
interesting subject.
When I speak to other parents at the school gates and elsewhere,
I am often told of their difficulties accessing paternity leave
and therefore sharing parenting equally. With nursery costs
spiralling and the wider cost of living crisis, it is time for
better paternity pay, and it should be increased to 90% of a
father's salary as soon as possible, so fathers and parents have
options.
Development in early years is irreplaceable for children. They
say it takes a village to raise a child, but in this country, we
do not even seem to support two people raising one. Let us
increase paternity pay, introduce a dad's month and widen
eligibility for paternity pay. I hope the Government will work on
a cross-party basis—I think they have already outlined that they
will—to take action.
(Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the omission of the self-employed
from eligibility for paternity pay, which rules out a large
number of our constituents, is a major issue that needs to be
addressed? Hopefully, we can encourage the Government to come
forward with schemes to fill that gap.
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that critical point for the
self-employed, who often find themselves excluded. A lot of
parents, including very good friends of mine, run their own
businesses and have found it very hard to access paternity
pay.
This is a critical equality and fairness issue, and I am really
pleased that we are talking about it because it is very important
to me. I am happy to work collaboratively with Members from
across the House to improve paternity pay.
4.47pm
Mrs (Congleton) (Lab)
I have spent the last 13 years advising women, in particular, in
employment tribunals, and I have advised a lot of women who have
suffered maternity discrimination. That was an absolute mainstay
of my practice. My comments will be completely heteronormative;
that is not to disparage any other family structures.
During the pandemic, for the first time large numbers of women
and men were able to work from home. I say that because prior to
the pandemic I spent a lot of time advising women on flexible
working requests. If they asked to work from home for one or
perhaps two days a week, that was habitually turned down. They
were told that it was completely impossible; employers would not
hear of it. Once men did it, it became absolutely acceptable, and
it is now absolutely fine in most organisations for parents of
either gender to work from home for one or two days a week.
If women continue to take the overwhelming majority of parental
leave, they will continue to take the entire career burden and
will be systematically discriminated against for it. This is a
widespread issue: 54,000 women a year lose their jobs when they
are pregnant or on maternity leave.
Ms (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
We also have to think about all the women who do not have
children but are discriminated against anyway because employers
expect them to. Does my hon. Friend agree that to get paternity
leave right, we have to ensure that everyone in their 30s and 40s
is equally discriminated against because they might go off and
have children?
Mrs Russell
I completely recognise what my hon. Friend says. The risk zone
for women's careers starts when they are approximately 25 and
carries on until they are at least 45. I have been advised not to
wear my wedding ring to interviews because I was likely to be
viewed as a pregnancy risk. Until we deal with that—until men
take significant amounts of leave and are paid properly to do
it—we will continue to face this issue, and women will be
systematically discriminated against, as she says, whether they
have children or not.
Approximately 12% of employers disclosed in a YouGov poll that
they were reluctant to hire a woman simply because she might
become pregnant. This is a widespread issue, whether women have
children or not. We need non-transferable, “use it or lose it”
parental leave for the second parent and we must ensure that that
is paid at a rate such that people are actually able to take the
leave. Once we have that and it becomes the default minimum—some
fathers will choose to take significantly longer—everyone will be
a risk, and everyone will be able to have career development.
That will change the entire attitude towards maternity leave in
our society. As I said, 54,000 women a year lose their jobs when
pregnant or on maternity leave. All the women I advised thought
they were just individually unlucky but given the volume of them
I can say that they were not unlucky—it was systematic.
4.50pm
(Didcot and Wantage) (LD)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I
congratulate the hon. Member for Telford () on securing this important
debate.
It was a pleasure to welcome to Parliament parents, children and
teachers from Europa school in my constituency last week. They
were all campaigning with the Dad Shift, which the hon. Member
has already mentioned, for paternity leave reform. The Dad Shift
is calling for dads to be given substantial time that is
affordable, so that everyone can afford to take it, enabling both
parents to have equality of access to such leave.
The moral and economic case for equal parental leave is clear. In
countries that offer at least six weeks of paternity leave, the
gender pay gap is 4% smaller and the workforce participation gap
is reduced by 3.7%. That shows that supporting parental leave not
only strengthens British families, but helps to grow the economy.
We Liberal Democrats believe that parents should have greater
flexibility and choice over how to manage work with parenting in
the first months of their child's life. Greater equality in
parenting will also lead to greater equality in the workplace, as
the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) said.
With the forthcoming Budget, I very much hope that the Minister
has sought opportunities to influence proceedings and to look for
opportunities to improve parental leave. In the longer term, when
the public finances allow, our ambition in the Liberal Democrats
is to give all families six weeks of “use it or lose it” leave
for each parent, paid at 90% of earnings, and 46 weeks of
parental leave to share between them as they choose, paid at
double the existing statutory rate. I look forward to hearing the
Minister's comments.
4.52pm
(East Renfrewshire)
(Lab)
Thank you, Mr Pritchard, for calling me to speak in this
debate.
I want to talk about the vision for the role of fathers in
society, which other hon. Members have spoken about, and about
how achieving that takes not only personal choice by fathers, but
cultural and economic change. I feel that point about personal
choice very acutely: at a very young age, my father chose not to
be part of my life, and I am determined that that should not be
repeated in my own family's upbringing. I am not unusual: for
example, nine out of 10 dads will now go to antenatal scans and
the birth. Fathers want to be part of their children's life and
they want to be better fathers, but the culture and the economics
make that difficult.
On the cultural point, when I was established in my own business,
I made the choice to be a stay-at-home father for a period.
However, such fathers are excluded from the coffee with the
mothers after nursery pick-up and are not part of the “mum bus”
WhatsApp chat. That culture continues, however, because of the
economics behind it.
The gap between average pay and statutory paternity leave is
about £1,000, which is something that parents cannot afford.
There is a class element as well, with nine out of 10 households
earning more than £60,000 a year able to take their paternity
leave, while only two thirds of those earning under £25,000 a
year can do so. If we want the cultural change, and that personal
choice, to be taken advantage of, we need to deal with the
economics and create more generous arrangements for paternity
pay.
In particular, I agree with the suggestion of the hon. Member for
Stoke-on-Trent Central () that, as well as looking at
paternity leave, we also have to give people the ability to take
crisis leave. This does not end with those first couple of weeks
of changing nappies and going to the pharmacy; we need to have
that ability as fathers throughout childhood.4.54pm
(Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Member for Telford () for setting the scene so
well. He is already making a reputation for himself in this
House—well done—and I look forward to more debates in Westminster
Hall.
Paternity leave in Northern Ireland allows for one to two weeks
of leave to be taken. Statutory paternity pay can be paid if
someone's average weekly earnings are £123. People can also get a
wee bit more in relation to that, but it is an expensive time for
a family and not much support is available. If we were living in
Japan, we would not have to worry about it because there they
have a year's paternity leave, but we are not. We are in the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so it is
very different.
Two weeks' semi-paid leave is very little when we look at what a
woman goes through in the delivery process. Now that we have an
increased pension age and more parents are working into their
60s, gone are the days of grandmothers coming to help with the
housework and other jobs in the first month of a child's life.
That simply is not a choice available to working grandparents and
the pressure on mum is massive.
Another two weeks of paternity leave can make all the difference,
especially when we consider that ladies who have had a difficult
birth, an infection post-birth or a c-section, as my wife did,
are unable to do any heavy lifting and need their husband more
than ever. It is all about looking out for the family as a whole.
I do not think we have it right when a dad has to go on the sick
to ensure that his wife, who is two weeks out from major surgery,
is not left alone and almost helpless with their new and totally
dependent baby. When my youngest son and his wife had their last
son, she ended up with a bad back afterwards, as a result of the
pregnancy. That happens, and paternity care would have been great
for her.
We need to offer a lot more support at what can be a vulnerable
time in the life of the family. I look to the Minister to
recognise the lessening wider family support and the need for the
little family to navigate the period together, without taking
sick leave or feeling guilty for not being in work. It is the
most precious time in a family's life and we in this House have
it in our power to do more to take away stress and give little
ones the best possible start in life. I know that is what
everyone in this House is committed to.
4.56pm
Ms (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford () on securing this
long-overdue debate. Previous debates have had a minimal turnout,
so it is fantastic to see so many people here. I also pay tribute
to the Dad Shift and the original campaigners Pregnant Then
Screwed and Joeli Brearley.
Joeli Brearley came up with the pancake test: if we consistently
put mums and dads in two different boxes, with mums looking after
babies and dads having to go back to work after those first two
weeks, when you have just realised that the meconium will
eventually stop, it is mums who learn how to feed the child
pancakes and dads who do not. It is mums who will get why some
days the child wants pancakes rolled up, some days they want them
flat and some days they want them with cream. That everyday
caring for children is at the heart of being able to look after
them, and slowly but surely it ends up being easier for the mum
to take the child and to deal with the toddler, and dads get
further and further away.
That is why, in the minute I have left, I want to argue in front
of the Minister for PaPa—protected and paid leave—which we need
for mums and dads in every single relationship. There is a risk
that the Employment Rights Bill and the brilliant changes it
introduces could entrench the challenges we are discussing,
rather than helping us to resolve them. What do I mean by that? I
mean that, if we entrench the idea that shared parental leave is
the answer to the challenge, we are entrenching one of the
biggest crimes against relationships. As the data shows us time
and again, it is mums who end up having to look after children
and mums who end up having to take that link. That is why in this
country there is a motherhood penalty, which means that mums are
seen as less committed, less capable, less competent and less
worthy of promotion.
Mrs Russell
Does my hon. Friend agree that the idea that “part-timer” is a
term of abuse is a shocking concept, and that what we are
discussing today could help with that?
Ms Creasy
I completely agree. I was also shocked to hear Conservative
Members, who obviously are not in this Chamber today, talking
about flexible working as somehow lesser working. When people
work flexibly, they do not work less—that is why they end up
sending emails in the evening, because they are prioritising
their time to do bedtime. They make it work for their family.
This debate is about making things work for families and tackling
the inequalities in the workplace. Those inequalities are why we
have a gender pay gap in this country—though in fact it is not a
gender pay gap, but a motherhood pay gap. There is also a
fatherhood premium, but we are showing in this debate that it is
not a premium at all, because asking dads to work harder and
longer and to be away from their children is not what modern dads
want. That is why so many fathers look at flexibility in the
workplace when they take on jobs, and that is why this debate
matters.
If we want to support every family, it cannot just be the
wealthiest who can set the terms on when they get to see their
kids and make those pancakes. I therefore urge the Minister to
consider an amendment that many of us will be tabling relating to
PaPa for dads in their own right, because that will help every
member of the family. I said it in the main Chamber, and I will
say it again here: having PaPa is good for us, because our
economic competitors are doing it, and we have some of the worst
rates of paternity leave. It is also good because we can prevent
another generation of dads reaching the stage of having teenagers
who they have no relationship with, because they have not been
there—not just to make pancakes, but to be the best dad they want
to be.
4.59pm
(Livingston) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard,
and to speak as a father of two small boys. In fact, I was lucky
enough with both my children to receive paid paternity leave, but
frankly that was because I was in a white-collar job that allowed
it. With my second child, I would not have qualified for the paid
paternity policy, but the good will of my employer allowed me to
have that time with my family, which is so important. However, it
should not be about the good will of employers.
In this country, we have only 52 weeks of maternity leave and two
paid weeks of paternity leave. Ours is the most gendered leave
system in the whole world, and the country's statutory pay offer
is the least generous in Europe. Eligible UK fathers can take a
maximum of two weeks' paid paternity leave at a rate of £184 a
week. That is simply not enough for families to live on. Fathers
are often not even eligible for that, for reasons of not being
deemed employees, being self-employed, or not having worked long
enough for their current employer. Shared parental leave is a
welcome innovation, but too few families feel that they can take
it—1% of mothers and 5% of fathers. There are huge barriers of
eligibility and affordability, as well as the need for mothers to
surrender their time at home so that fathers can take it.
A 2023 TUC study that looked into shared parental leave found
that 35% of fathers in a household with an income of under
£25,000 did not take it. That shows the huge class element:
fathers on lower salaries are not able to take that time. Some
53% of families that do take up the leave struggle financially.
We see that self-employed fathers cannot take the time, with
about 70% not doing so.
I am pleased that the Employment Rights Bill will give day one
rights at work to fathers so that we can give stronger support to
our working families in my Livingston constituency and right
across the whole country.
Several hon. Members rose—
(in the Chair)
Order. I am afraid that I will have to restrict speeches to one
minute because we have a lot of speakers and are running out of
time. I remind colleagues that if they intervene on someone, that
person gets an extra minute, which eats into the time available.
If Members need or want to intervene, and the intervention is
accepted, so be it, but just be aware of that.
5.02pm
(Bexleyheath and Crayford)
(Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Telford () for bringing forward the
debate.
Very quickly, I will speak from a personal perspective. Eleven
years ago, our twins were born nine weeks early, when I had been
with my then employer for five months. In the six weeks they were
in hospital, I was given three and a half days of leave. One of
those was on the day after my wife had a seizure and I had spent
the whole night with her in the hospital. In fact, when my wife
was told, when our children were 12 days old, that one of them
had cerebral palsy, I was at work because the doctors had to tell
her during working hours. That shows the complexity of the issue.
When my children came home at six weeks, my two weeks' paternity
leave was actually my holiday, because I was not entitled to a
penny. I welcome what the Government are bringing forward for
leave, but we have to look at the pay aspect and try to get it
right, because we cannot repeat some of the mistakes that too
many fathers like myself have experienced in the past.5.03pm
(Crawley) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford () on bringing forward the
debate. I similarly have an appalling personal experience. My
employer was down-sizing, so I was forced to change jobs during
my wife's pregnancy and, despite being open with my employer
about the situation, I was completely ineligible for any
statutory leave. They were a good employer—they actually happen
to campaign on this specific issue—but the reality is that the
overwhelming majority of people do not have that opportunity.
Most people in this day and age do not stay with employers for an
indefinite period of time, either through their choice or that of
the employer. They cannot be cut out of the system, particularly
when 92% of the cost of paternity pay is being paid out of their
taxes by central Government in the first place. No father will be
operating at peak levels of efficiency under those circumstances.
Frankly, we have an appalling birth rate in this country that is
dropping, and this is one of the reasons why that is
happening.
5.04pm
(Gloucester) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford () on securing the debate. I
will try to explain my experience in one minute.
A year ago this week, I had my two weeks of paternity leave.
Quite frankly, there is an awful lot more that we need to do. I
welcome the changes in the Employment Rights Bill, but it cannot
be right that a father goes back to work two weeks after a birth
if, for example, a mother who has had a caesarean section is
still in recovery from that medical procedure and needs support
at home. It is not a case of them being able to get up and do
whatever they like at that point, so we should change that as
quickly as we can.
On shared parental leave, my wife lost a month of her maternity
leave so that I could have a month with my baby boy, and that
stops parents wanting to take it. It made me think twice about
taking it, rather than thinking, “What an amazing privilege it is
to spend a month with my baby boy.” Finally, we must ensure that
all fathers can afford to take paternity leave. It is a financial
penalty to many, and we really need to encourage all parents to
be able to take time with their children.
5.05pm
(High Peak) (Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Telford () for bringing forward the
debate. I have a declaration of interest: next Tuesday, I will
become a father for the third time. Will I take two weeks of
paternity leave? No, I will take three, and I still do not think
that that is enough. My wife will have a caesarean, as has been
mentioned, and the advice to her is clear that she should not
drive for six weeks. We live in a rural village where if we do
not drive, we do not take the other children to school. It is
vital that families have the ability to take a longer time when
the health of the woman and the wellbeing of the children is at
stake.
5.06pm
(Mid Derbyshire) (Lab)
The introduction of paternity leave by the last Labour Government
in 2003 was one of those bold, progressive changes that was
opposed by some at the time, like the minimum wage that, years
down the line, has become a much-valued right. The policy's
opponents said that it would harm business, but actually it
supports new dads to manage change and support their child, which
means that employers benefit from staff who are ultimately more
engaged with their jobs and able to do their work. Although we
must not be complacent—I note that one of the Tory leadership
contenders commented that maternity pay has gone too far—I hope
that paternity leave remains a right that is never taken away.
That is why I am pleased that the Government's Employment Rights
Bill ensures that all new fathers can take paternity leave. An
extra 30,000 fathers or partners across the country will benefit
from that, with rights from day one. It is not just good for new
mums and dads, and the children who they support, but essential
in helping those children to have the best start in life.
Becoming a parent, especially for the first time, is a daunting
prospect, with many new parents reporting poor mental health or
even post-natal depression in the period shortly after. Not only
is that bad for the adults concerned, but it has an impact on
their children. Depression or anxiety is often exacerbated by the
fact—
(in the Chair)
Order.
5.07pm
Mrs (Wolverhampton North
East) (Lab)
This new Government's Employment Rights Bill will help to
overhaul workers' rights, including by helping 30,000 new fathers
to qualify for paternity leave. This will be much welcomed by
many families as the statistics show that as many as two thirds
of new fathers and partners who qualified for statutory paternity
leave did not take it last year. The issue impacts particularly
on lower income families or households where the father is the
primary earner. Statutory paternity leave in the UK currently
allows for only two weeks off, often at low pay that is
significantly less than the national minimum wage, which is why
the Employment Rights Bill is so vital. It offers greater
flexibility for fathers in how and when they will take their
leave, which reflects a broader societal shift, and we must
support that.
5.08pm
(Makerfield) (Lab)
Time and again, my constituents in Makerfield have told me that
having a child in this country is too expensive and exhausting.
Mums have said that they have been forced out of their job
through long maternity leave, and dads have told me that
employers have made it impossible for them to spend time with
their kids and support their partners. As other Members have
said, only when dads take parental leave will we make maternity
discrimination a thing of the past, but we also need a deeper
cultural shift. As ever, the Tory party is lagging behind our
society, as we have seen this week, because thankfully we no
longer live in a world where women make the home and men make the
money. Men want to be parents. They want to be dads, and to cook
and do the washing. They want to hug their kids when they have
had a tough day at school, to tear up when they watch a Disney
movie, or to laugh with their kids at my best-known constituent,
Hacker the dog. In an age when so many young men suffer from
mental health problems and feel that they lack purpose in our
society, we must talk about what it means to be a man in a way
that is in step with the age.
Sarah (Hyndburn) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that this is about not just all the
things he mentions, but the impact on the mental health of the
mother?
I absolutely agree. The support that men can give to their
partners is an absolutely vital part of the argument for
paternity leave, which is why we need to talk about what it means
to be a man in the society that we live in that is in step with
the age that we live in. Strength and resilience are qualities
that my wife has just as much as me. Care and love are qualities
that I have just as much as her. Being a dad is about care,
protection and love as well as strength and courage. As men, we
must take pride in both.
I very much hope that the Government's review of parental leave
will include paternity as well as maternity leave, and that it
will cover pay and duration of leave for employees of firms of
all sizes. Every week working parents I represent open the door
exhausted and broke, despite loving their kids with all their
heart. Better paternity leave is vital to show that we value
parenting, kids and family in this country.
Several hon. Members rose—
(in the Chair)
Order. I am sorry, but there are two or three speakers whom I
cannot get in because of the time. I call the Liberal Democrat
spokesperson for five minutes, followed by the shadow Minister
for five minutes, and then the Minister for eight or nine
minutes.
5.10pm
(Twickenham) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr
Pritchard.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Telford () on securing this incredibly
important debate. It is important to parents, children, our whole
society and our economy. May I just say that it is wonderful to
see so many men here, particularly fathers who have shared their
experiences so personally and passionately? It is important that
men are at the forefront of this debate, alongside women, to
achieve the cultural change that needs to take place.
Parental leave, and paternity leave in particular, is a subject
that rarely receives the attention it deserves. As the parent of
two primary-aged children in a family where my husband has been
the primary carer ever since I returned to work full time
following maternity leave, I am passionate about ensuring that
every family can have genuine choice in their caring arrangements
in the early months and years. When we talk about the early
years, the debate often focuses on childcare, because of how
difficult it is for families to access affordable and flexible
childcare, but that is only part of the picture. The Liberal
Democrats believe that parents should have greater flexibility
and choice over how to juggle work with parenting in those early
few months.
It is important to be clear that, as the hon. Member for Hitchin
() said, mothers
unarguably have a unique and vital role, and that must never be
undervalued. No matter what certain right hon. and hon. Members
may think—not those present today, I am sure—maternity pay is far
from excessive. It is too low and needs to be increased, but that
is a debate for another day, because we are talking about paid
paternity leave. As we have heard, paternity leave gives dads a
bit more time to form the crucial bond with their children. We
know that it is beneficial for boys and girls when they have
strong bonds with their dad.
Greater equality in parenting will lead to greater equality in
the workplace. At the moment, the imbalance in parenting is a
major driver of the gender pay gap. On average, a woman's
earnings take roughly a 40% hit when she has her first child and
they do not recover. A man's earnings, by contrast, barely take a
hit. That was why I was proud that it was the Liberal Democrats
in government who introduced shared parental leave in 2015. That
major step forward gave parents choice over how to share up to 50
weeks of leave and 37 weeks of pay between them, but it was just
a first step. As we have heard, there is much more to do.
Take-up of shared parental leave and paternity leave remains far
too low, and we know that affordability is a key reason why. A
poll last year found that 62% of fathers would take more leave if
statutory paternity pay were increased. We need a major overhaul
to give parents a genuine choice. First, the rates need to rise.
At less than half of full-time pay at minimum wage, today's
statutory rates simply are not enough to give parents a real
choice. The Liberal Democrats proposed in our recent manifesto
that paternity pay be boosted to 90% of pay, with a cap for high
earnings. We also called for statutory parental pay to be
doubled.
The second issue is eligibility. Unlike maternity leave,
paternity leave is not a day one right. I am glad that the
Employment Rights Bill will address that but, as we heard from my
hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (), that is not the only
barrier. We need to extend rights to self-employed parents,
too.
Thirdly, two weeks is simply not enough, as many Members have set
out so eloquently. It is well below the average of 12 weeks that
we see across advanced economies, and evidence from places such
as Quebec shows the importance of a longer period of leave
reserved for fathers in boosting the take-up of parental leave by
men. That is why the Liberal Democrats have also proposed that
one month of paid parental leave should be a “use it or lose it”
month for fathers and partners.
The previous Conservative Government made grand promises on this
issue. In their 2019 manifesto, they pledged to make it easier
for fathers to take paternity leave. In the end, all that
amounted to, as my hon. Friend the Member for Henley and Thame
(Freddie van Mierlo) said, was allowing fathers to take their two
weeks in two separate one-week blocks instead of having to take
it all at once. That was a welcome change, I am sure, but it is
hardly the overhaul that our system needs. I hope that the new
Government will be much bolder and take up the plans that we
Liberal Democrats set out in our manifesto to create a system
that gives all families a real choice over how they want to care
for their children in those precious months.5.15pm
(Orpington) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Telford () on securing the debate. I
also thank the numerous Members who contributed to the debate. I
would run through them all—I have written them down—but there are
17 and I am conscious of time, so I will move forward.
I welcome the fact that so many Members have come here to talk
about this important subject. Opposition Members want to ensure
that employees do not have to choose between a rewarding career
and a fulfilling life. Due to reforms that were introduced by the
previous Government, Britain now has a vastly improved paternity
leave package.
In July 2019, the previous Government consulted on whether the
existing arrangements for parental leave and pay were adequate,
and whether more could be done to better balance the gender
division of parental leave and pay between parents. The
consultation sought views on the costs and benefits of reforming
parental entitlements and any trade-offs that might need to
accompany such reform. The Government response, published in June
2023, set out detailed reforms to paternity leave and pay,
fulfilling a previous manifesto commitment to make it easier for
fathers and partners to take paternity leave. The reforms
included: giving employed fathers and partners more choice and
flexibility around how and when they take their paternity leave,
as we have just heard, allowing them to take two separate blocks
of one week of leave; giving employed fathers and partners the
ability to take their leave at any time in the first year after
the child's due date or birth, rather than just in the first
eight weeks after birth or placement for adoption; and changing
the requirements for paternity leave to make them more
proportionate to the amount of time the father or parent plans to
take off work, cutting the amount of notice of dates from 15
weeks before the expected week of childbirth to 28 days before
the leave will be taken.
Moreover, the previous Government supported the passage of what
was then called the Shared Parental Leave and Pay (Bereavement)
Bill—a private Member's Bill introduced by the hon. Member for
Bridgend (), who was at that time the
hon. Member for Ogmore—to remove the qualifying employment
condition for shared parental leave when the birth mother or
adopting parent had died. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for
Bridgend for steering the Bill through Parliament. It provided an
important extension of support and protection for parents facing
one of the most challenging situations in their lives.
I am conscious of time, so I shall wind up. His Majesty's
Opposition have taken note of the measures proposed in the
Employment Rights Bill concerning paternity leave and pay. The
Conservative party has always been the party of business, but we
have also been pro-worker; getting the balance right is vital. We
will therefore closely review the Bill's provisions as it
progresses through the House and will assess them on their
individual merits.
5.18pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade
()
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mr
Pritchard. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford
() on securing today's debate,
which has been very well attended. I did not think that we would
see such unanimity, but there is clearly a fresh view in the
House. We would not have had this sort of turnout or this kind of
debate in previous Parliaments, but there is clearly a mood among
newly elected Members—and of course among older, more experienced
Members—for change.
I would reference all the contributions, but we will not have
time for that. As always, I am grateful to the hon. Member for
Strangford () and my hon. Friends the Members for Walthamstow (Ms
Creasy), for Livingston (), for Bexleyheath and
Crayford (), for Crawley (), for Makerfield (), for East Renfrewshire
(), for Hitchin (), for Congleton (Mrs
Russell), for Wolverhampton North East (Mrs Brackenridge), for
Gloucester (), for Mid Derbyshire (), for High Peak (), and the hon. Members for
Didcot and Wantage () and for Lewes () for their contributions.
I think that shows that across the nation there is great interest
and appetite for reform. Apologies if I did not catch everyone's
contribution.
I will make a couple of points. The hon. Member for Henley and
Thame (Freddie van Mierlo), and I think a couple of other
Members, talked about the fact that those working in the gig
economy and those who are self-employed do not qualify for any
paternity leave. Clearly, we have set out in our “Next Steps”
document on employment law reform a review of the worker status
and self-employed issues. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton
raised, as I would expect her to, the very important points about
maternity discrimination. She will know that there are measures
in the Employment Rights Bill to strengthen protections against
dismissal for those on maternity leave. I cannot continue without
mentioning and congratulating in advance my hon. Friend the
Member for High Peak on his impending fatherhood for the third
time.
My hon. Friend the Member for Telford was absolutely right that
this issue is about not just the father's role, but the wider
role in society and the bond between father and child. He talked
about his research into how Government Departments had handled
the matter. It is fair to say that, as a newly elected
Government, we want to see Government being an exemplar of best
practice as an employer. He expanded our often-used phrase of
being “pro-worker, pro-business” to add “pro-family”. I have no
difficulty with that in this context.
The Government are committed to ensuring that employed parents
receive the best possible support for their work and home lives.
Our plan to make work pay will ensure that there is more
flexibility and security for working families. Workers must be
supported to work, while balancing the essential ingredients of
their wider family life, whether that is raising children,
improving their own wellbeing or looking after a loved one with a
long-term health condition.
Mr (Altrincham and Sale West)
(Lab)
Will the Minister give way?
I am sorry but I do not have time to take interventions.
We recognise that parental leave and pay entitlement, such as
paternity leave and pay, play a key role in that balance. It is
an important of the lives of parents and children for the parent
to be able to take time away from work when their child is
born—or first placed, as we recognise this debate covers other
arrangements—so that partners can provide support and families
can be together for the first time. We know the parental system
needs improvement. Hon. Members can look back on previous
debates, where it is clearly on the record that Labour in
opposition felt that the parental system was in need of reform. I
will set out some of the changes we plan to make in relation to
the Employment Rights Bill.
As has been said, there have been some modest improvements in
arrangements in the last 12 months. On 6 April, changes were
introduced that allow parents to take leave and pay in two
non-consecutive weeks, at any point in the first year after the
birth or adoption of their child, and to give shorter notice for
leave periods. That was a move forward but we want to go further.
The Employment Rights Bill will make paternity leave a day one
right. Currently, parents are eligible for leave only if they
have been employed in their job for 26 weeks, by 15 weeks before
the baby is due.
We will remove the requirement for a continuity of service
condition for paternity leave. That will allow eligible employees
to give notice of their intention to take that entitlement, from
day one in the job. It will make paternity leave accessible to
all employees, including those who may have low job security and
low continuity of service, not only those who are able to reach
the current set qualifying periods. We believe this measure will
bring tens of thousands more parents into scope for the
entitlement, meaning that many more families will benefit from
protected time off.
We will make other changes to paternity leave to make it more
flexible for parents. We will remove the restriction requiring
paternity leave and pay to be taken before shared parental leave
and pay. Currently, when shared parental leave and pay is taken,
fathers lose their right to take any paternity leave and pay that
they have not already taken. We think that is creating unintended
consequences, and we will remove that restriction in order to
provide the flexibility for employees to take advantage of the
different types of leave available to them at the moment to care
for their child in whatever order works for them and their
family. That will also remove the risk that parents will lose
their entitlement to take paternity leave and pay by
misunderstanding the restrictions. As several hon. Members said,
it is a complicated process; I had not realised that there was a
cottage industry in completing forms for shared parental leave.
That is clearly something we need to consider in due course.
We are making other commitments to improve parental leave. We are
going to make unpaid parental leave a day one right. The
provision gives an employed parent the right to take up to four
weeks of leave per year for their child, unless the employer
agrees to more. The maximum leave per child is 18 weeks in total.
Currently, an employee must have worked in their job for a year
to qualify for that entitlement. The Employment Rights Bill will
remove that continuity of service requirement, and regulations
will then enable parents to give notice of their intention to
take that leave on the first day in a new job. We are very keen
on having day one rights for employees in a whole range of areas.
That, alongside the changes to paternity leave and pay, will
increase flexibility and solidify and enhance economic activity
for employed parents. Evidence shows that people who move jobs
get wage increases. The current system of employees waiting up to
a year for parental leave entitlements when they change employer
means that parents are put off seeking new jobs that could have
boosted their family income at a time when they need it more than
ever.
We also know that the whole parental leave system does not
support working families. As Members have said, we have committed
to a review of the parental leave system. Inevitably, we will not
be able to do that without looking at the questions raised today
about how paternity leave and pay work. It is clearly part of a
larger interconnected web. The review will be undertaken
separately to the Employment Rights Bill, but work on planning
for its delivery is already under way.
I want to give my hon. Friend the Member for Telford an
opportunity to respond, so I will bring my speech to a close. We
are listening carefully to the many representations we have
heard. Our plan to make work pay is a core part of our
Government's mission to grow the economy, raise living standards
across the country and create opportunities for all. It will help
more people stay in work, improve job security and boost living
standards. The whole approach we are taking will benefit families
across the board. It will benefit workers and businesses beyond
the important specific interventions we have talked about today.
We have a very important package of measures that I am proud to
be a part of delivering in this new Government.
5.26pm
It has been a fascinating debate, as the Minister says. Most
parts of the United Kingdom were covered, and I could say that
there is cross-party progressive alliance on the issue. I hope
that the Minister has noted that there is a significant amount of
support for paternity leave and pay. There is an appetite from
people like myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield
() to use the Employment Rights
Bill as the vehicle for this progressive change, but if that does
not happen, engaging with the review of the parental leave system
would be most helpful. The statutory minimum is the statutory
minimum, and the Government and the public sector should see it
as an opportunity lead the country in what fathers should expect
in a workplace. I hope that colleagues from the Cabinet Office
will take note.
(Dunfermline and Dollar)
(Lab)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I will be very brief. I am
a former small business owner—does my hon. Friend agree that as
part of that review, we should also be looking at and promoting
to small businesses the benefits of adequate family leave and
flexible working at the same time to help grow the economy?
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend's point on small
businesses. It is interesting that since this debate was secured,
a number of employers have come forward to talk about the steps
they are taking and their appetite for taking further steps—they
see it as an opportunity to address recruitment and retention
issues, too.
I look forward to working with the Minister and thank him for his
contribution. I know that there will be further such
conversations over the course of this Parliament.
(in the Chair)
I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for being very helpful.
It was very difficult for you to speak for just one minute, and
pretty much everybody did. I congratulate you, and I congratulate
the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (), who I sadly was not able
to call, but who seized his opportunity to speak by intervening
on the mover of the motion in the last minute. I also
congratulate my friend and neighbour, the hon. Member for Telford
(), on his first Westminster
Hall debate, which I am sure will be the first of many over the
coming years.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered paternity leave and pay.
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