Rail Ticket
Offices
Commons Urgent Question
The following Answer to an Urgent Question was given in the House
of Commons on Thursday 6 July.
“There has been a huge shift in the way in which passengers
purchase tickets at railway stations, with about one in every 10
transactions taking place in ticket offices in 2022-23. That is
down from one in three a decade earlier and equates to 13% of
rail revenue. Despite this, our stations have hardly changed in
the past 10 years, which means that staff are constrained to work
in ticket offices, although they could serve passengers better on
station platforms and concourses. I am pleased that the rail
industry has launched consultations on the future of ticket
offices under the ticketing and settlement agreement process,
which will give the public an opportunity to scrutinise the train
operating companies’ proposals to ensure that they work in the
best possible way for passengers.
These changes are about modernising the passenger experience by
moving staff out of ticket offices to be more visible and
accessible around the station. Crucially, no currently staffed
stations will be unstaffed as a result of this reform—staff will
still be there to provide assistance and additional support for
those who need and want it—and the new approach will take into
consideration the potential impact on individuals with protected
characteristics. It is of course vital that our railway is
accessible to all, and I have engaged directly with accessibility
groups and will continue to do so.
This is an industry process, so I encourage Members and their
constituents to engage with their local train operators to find
out more about the proposals for their local stations. If
passengers want to raise any views, they can contact the relevant
passenger body. I believe that the industry’s proposed reforms
could enable staff to provide a more flexible, agile and personal
service, creating the modern experience that people expect.”
19:33:00
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, it is difficult to overestimate just how valued the
staff and services provided by station ticket offices are by the
travelling public. This major change affecting 150 million
passenger journeys, hitting the disabled and vulnerable elderly
the hardest, is proposed to be completed in just three weeks.
Yesterday, in answer to my question on ticket office closures,
the Minister said that the industry will of course do an impact
assessment. The Royal National Institute of Blind People has
said:
“A mass closure of rail ticket offices would have a hugely
detrimental impact on blind and partially sighted people’s
ability to buy tickets, arrange assistance and, critically,
travel independently”.
Should that impact assessment have been carried out and published
before the decision was taken? How credible does the Minister
believe any consultation can be with a proposal being rammed
through so quickly?
Ticket offices were used 150 million times last year, and
assessments contained in consultation documents suggest that
millions of those sales would be impossible through ticket
machines, which simply do not have the full range of fares and
services. The fares and ticketing on our railways are notoriously
complicated, and it is often ticket office staff who help
passengers navigate that complexity. Should the whole system of
ticketing have been reviewed and simplified before this step was
taken?
Lastly, I urge the Minister to consider extending the
consultation period for this proposal to allow all those who will
be affected to make their views known.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Transport () (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for a succession of
questions there. She is right that the staff are valued. They are
very much valued by the Government and indeed by the train
operating companies, so much so that we have concluded that they
do not need to be sitting in a ticket office to help passengers
in whichever way they need.
The noble Baroness talked about ticketing and availability. It is
the case that 99% of all tickets are available through ticket
vending machines or online. On the question of an impact
assessment, the impacts for each station are assessed
individually under the process, which I am sure the noble
Baroness is aware of as it was in place during the last Labour
Government.
(LD)
My Lords, the train operators have made it clear that this is
being imposed on them by the Government. The Government have said
that only 12% of tickets are bought through ticket offices, but
what does that 12% mean? In the past year there were 1.4 billion
separate rail journeys, so 168 million tickets were bought in
ticket offices. Passengers who use ticket offices will be
inconvenienced and deterred by the closure of those offices. That
will hit elderly, disabled and poorer people most of all.
What assessment have the Government made of the particular impact
on those in our society less able to buy tickets from machines?
Does the Minister accept that the truth is that this is a
question of trust? We do not believe government promises that
there will be people wandering around stations to help people.
There will be for the first few weeks, but they will disappear
after that. The Government will tell us that there have to be
reductions. We do not trust the Government to deliver on their
promises.
Finally, does the Minister agree that at the very least there
should be no ticket office closures until the Government have
delivered on their long-awaited commitment to simplify the fare
structure?
(Con)
The Government have an ongoing commitment to simplify the fare
structure and we are continuing to do so. The Rail Minister has
engaged extensively and directly with accessibility groups and
will continue to do so. We are also engaging with the Disabled
Persons Transport Advisory Committee to ensure that we hear its
views as well.
As I said in answer to a previous question, 99% of tickets can be
bought through a ticket vending machine or online, and members of
staff will be around to help anybody who has any problems in
buying their tickets.
of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister know that the delay repay system,
which I referred to in a question last week, often rewards people
with vouchers from the companies? They often will not put money
into your account. You are able to cash in those vouchers only at
offices that sell railway tickets, so we could be in a very
difficult situation here. If the Minister needs to write to me
about this, I would quite understand.
(Con)
I will certainly write to the noble Lord about this, but there
will be various functionality within the new system, which will
be more mobile than it is now and will allow people using cash,
for example, to buy a ticket or a ticket to ride, which is one of
the options available. On vouchers, I will write to him but I am
fairly sure that will have been taken into account by the train
operating companies when they put forward their proposals.
(Con)
My Lords, I use the ticket office at Staplehurst station and its
staff are outstanding. The care that they show the customers and
the way in which they help them plan their journey and buy the
correct tickets is a credit to them. I truly hope that their
skills will be kept, because the business will be the poorer
without them. I am afraid that the ticket machines do not quite
match up to the staff. Can my noble friend tell me if the new
ticket machines will be able to replicate this service and
whether AI will be used to enhance them?
(Con)
I am grateful to my noble friend for her exposition of the
greatness of the staff. We absolutely value the staff, which is
why we want to get them out there to enable them to help more
people. Ticket vending machines are being continually upgraded
and there are all sorts of ways we can upgrade them: for example,
we are adding video calling to enable people to ask the absolute
experts if they wish to take a particularly complicated route. If
AI is appropriate, I am sure that the train operating companies
are looking at it.
(Lab)
My Lords, I speak from personal experience, having travelled up
and down from Liverpool twice this week alone. Only this morning,
I was listening to the staff there who were worried sick about
their jobs, but more importantly, I watched a partially sighted
customer trying to get help and support which would not have been
available had there been no assistant to help them. This is not
about people; it is about profits and wiping people’s jobs out. I
urge others to make sure, as I have already done today, that in
respect of the consultation paper they vote no to this outrageous
proposal.
(Con)
My Lords, those staff will still be there to help the passenger,
whether they be partially sighted or for whatever reason they
need help. The noble Lord says that this is about profits but it
is not at all, because the costs of running the railways fall to
the taxpayer. We need to have a modern seven-day railway and that
is what this Government are going to deliver.
(Con)
My Lords, this is a necessary modernisation of the railways but
what we have heard is the kind of thing that is argued about any
change. The railways do not make money and need to be more
modern; we ought to accept this and celebrate it.
(Con)
I absolutely agree with my noble friend. There have been various
interventions with technology over recent years. For example, the
addition of gate lines necessarily meant that certain members of
staff did not need to check tickets, and that is absolutely
right. They can do far more valuable things. It is about helping
passengers to get where they need to go, whether they have
reduced mobility or not.
(CB)
My Lords, there has been mention of the issues for disabled
passengers. The Office of Rail and Road published its annual
report today, which showed that only 66% of those with physical
impairments received their pre-booked assistance. That is a one
in three chance of not getting assistance, despite booking in
advance. Can the Minister please explore how this situation can
be improved, so that people with disabilities can use the
railways?
(Con)
That is absolutely at the front of our minds when considering
these changes. The ORR also published statistics which showed
that there has been a 68% increase in passengers who need
assistance to use our railways. Of course, getting people out
from ticket offices and on to platforms and into gathering areas
and waiting rooms to enable those people to travel more freely is
top of mind.
(Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that—
(Con)
My Lords—
(Lab)
My Lords—
(Con)
I think we will take the Labour side first.
(Lab)
My Lords, the Minister said that people can buy tickets online.
That presupposes that people have a good mobile phone or a
computer and a broadband line. Can the Minister tell the House
how many individuals and households do not have a good phone,
access to a computer or a broadband link? What help will the
Government be offering to those who do not have these things?
(Con)
There are all sorts of channels for reaching train operating
companies, including by traditional telephone. As I mentioned,
not a single station which is currently staffed will be unstaffed
in the future. There will therefore be no change for such
individuals. They will be able to go to the station to seek the
help of the staff, who will be able to assist them in buying a
ticket.