Asked by
To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to
ensure the United Kingdom meets the increased demands to produce
nuclear submarines entailed by the AUKUS agreement with the
United States of America and Australia.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence () (Con)
My Lords, the UK is stepping up to meet the opportunities of the
AUKUS nuclear submarine agreement, a multidecade undertaking that
will create thousands of jobs. We are investing an extra £3
billion over the next two years in our defence nuclear
enterprise, including support for AUKUS. Rolls-Royce plans to
almost double the size of its Derby site, creating 1,170 skilled
roles and demonstrating our commitment to the expertise embodied
in British industry.
(CB)
I thank the Minister for that Answer. I should add that my
declared interest for the Purpose Coalition includes advising
Rolls-Royce on how to meet that production challenge. AUKUS is
great news for our global security and for the UK submarine
industry, but does the Minister accept that it requires a
step-change in Whitehall departments working together on a
genuine national endeavour, which has long been promised but has
not been delivered across Whitehall?
(Con)
I thank the noble Lord for the role he is playing and wish him
well in his advisory capacity to Rolls-Royce. This is a very
important project. It is probably one of the most important we
have entered into in the post-Second World War period. He is
absolutely correct that there is a need for cross-government
co-operation and consultation. That is happening. As he is also
aware, one of the big challenges is in relation to skills. We are
very cognisant of that, and activity is under way to try to
increase nuclear sector engagement with young people and attract
talent from a more diverse background.
(CB)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that increasing the number of
submarines armed with nuclear weapons invites less responsible
countries, like Russia and China, to do the same? This increases
the possibility of their accidental or malevolent use, leading to
horrendous suffering.
(Con)
I can simply clarify to the Chamber that the AUKUS programme’s
SSN-AUKUS submarines are nuclear-propelled, not nuclear-armed.
(Lab)
My Lords, the first AUKUS pillar 2 autonomous weapons and
artificial intelligence trial took place in April. On 27 June,
the White House Indo-Pacific co-ordinator, Kurt Campbell, said
that there would be co-operation with all three countries on
artificial intelligence and quantum computing, and that other
allies and partners would be invited to join this development.
That is quite a significant development, although not unexpected,
given the elements of AUKUS. Is there any possibility that we
will get a ministerial Statement on this matter?
(Con)
What I can confirm to the noble Lord is what is already in the
public domain. We have always said that, as progress is made with
the three countries on pillar 2—which is distinct from the
original pillar, which is trilateral—other critical defence
capabilities will then seek opportunities to engage allies and
close partners. As the noble Lord correctly indicated, the trial
held in April was most encouraging, and a two-minute video was
released by all three nations. We have to take one step at a
time.
of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, while AUKUS is clearly very important, Europe and our
neighbourhood remain the closest security partners and allies for
the United Kingdom. Could the Minister confirm that working with
AUKUS will not reduce our commitment to our neighbourhood? At the
same time, if there will be increased skills and work for
developing the nuclear-propelled submarines, could some of that
expertise be used to ensure that the development of other
equipment, under the MoD’s auspices, is fit for purpose the first
time round?
(Con)
On the first point, it has always been acknowledged that,
although AUKUS is intended to do two things—to augment our
Indo-Pacific tilt and to provide us with our new class of AUKUS
submarines and succession to Astute—it will also enable the UK
and its partners to develop capabilities that will, for example,
not only reinforce NATO but help the states in the Indo-Pacific
bolster their own security. On the noble Baroness’s latter point,
we already have a huge base of skills in the UK, as I indicated
to the noble Lord, . That, quite simply, is why
AUKUS is a trilateral agreement with the United States, the UK
and Australia. We are building on that; we are not complacent. We
need to expand that skills base. I agree with the noble Baroness
that, once we do that, we will see a fanning out of other
benefits to the broader defence enterprise.
(CB)
My Lords, for the aspirations set out in my noble friend Lord
Walney’s Question to be achieved, we need to ensure that the
United Kingdom provides the capital impetus for us to participate
fully in the construction and development of the submarines. Will
the Minister tell us what steps are being taken by His Majesty’s
Government to ensure that the United Kingdom is a full
participant in the construction programme?
(Con)
I respond to the noble Lord by reminding the Chamber that, in
March this year, the Prime Minister announced that we are
investing an extra £3 billion over the next two years in our
defence nuclear enterprise to support AUKUS and other areas.
Other financial contributions will be coming from Australia; for
example, at the Rolls-Royce base in Derby plans are under way for
a significant expansion of its Raynesway nuclear reactor
manufacturing site. That will create 1,170 skilled jobs. We
expect this tandem of co-operation to produce not only a
contribution to the project itself but a financial contribution
to the endeavour.
(Lab)
My Lords, the AUKUS programme is extremely good news; it is very
good news for the UK and for stability. Looking to the future,
does the Minister agree that this will allow us, in the longer
term, to increase the number of SSNs we have—because we have too
few—and that that will be good for the north Atlantic and the
Arctic as well as the Far East? They can move from one place to
the other in a matter of three or four weeks, so does she agree
that this is a potential for the future?
(Con)
It give me great pleasure to agree with the noble Lord—it is
refreshing and, I hope, a recurring experience. The noble Lord
makes a very good point. As he is aware, we currently have
Vanguard that will translate into Dreadnought in due course. On
the Astute class, the final two submarines are still being built:
boat six, “Agamemnon”, and boat seven, “Agincourt”. They will
make an important contribution, but as we move on to the Astute
class, the noble Lord is correct. We are aware of diverging
maritime challenges, not least in the high north and the Arctic.
The MoD is cognisant of that. I referred to the fact that we have
published our Arctic strategy to his colleague, the noble Lord,
, on Friday.
(Lab)
My Lords, His Majesty’s Opposition Front Bench fully supports the
AUKUS programme. As the noble Lord, Lord West, has pointed out,
it will make a huge contribution to global security in the
decades to come. Returning to the point a number of noble Lords
have mentioned, there are already thousands of unfilled vacancies
in skilled engineering in our defence industries. There will need
to be a step change with respect to skills if we are to fully
utilise all the opportunities that are available under the AUKUS
scheme. The Minister mentioned some of the initiatives the
Government are bringing forward, but I ask her—as a matter of
urgency—to look at whether that needs refreshing. So far, all our
efforts in that have not delivered the results we want.
(Con)
I can share with the noble Lord that additional apprenticeship
and graduate bursary schemes have been implemented across the
enterprise, and significant further increases are planned to
build the capabilities to increase the cohort of apprentices and
new graduate opportunities by 2029-30. Importantly—and it refers
to the point the noble Lord, , was making—the MoD, the
Department for Energy Security and Net Zero and employers in the
nuclear circuit are all working together as part of the Nuclear
Skills Strategy Group to address common challenges. The noble
Lord is correct to allude to the challenge: it is there but we
are not complacent about it, and we have a number of initiatives
designed to try to address it.
(CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that moving from the step
change we have all agreed this afternoon will require an
integrated approach? That will then leave the question of command
and control. Who will lead on AUKUS for the whole of the
Government to make sure that, end to end, we deliver this
important programme?
(Con)
I hope I can reassure the noble and gallant Lord that the Cabinet
Secretary has asked the MoD’s Permanent Secretary, , to be the UK’s AUKUS
principal. That is a very significant position. He will have
overall responsibility for the programme in the UK with support
from the Director General Nuclear, the Deputy Chief of Defence
staff, military capability and senior civil servants from a
number of relevant departments from across Whitehall. He will be
at the very top of the chain, the essential co-ordinating
presence.
