Armed Forces: Cost of Living Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw)
(SNP) 1. What recent assessment his Department has made of the
potential impact of increases in the cost of living on the armed
forces' (a) morale and (b) recruitment. The Minister for Defence
People, Veterans and Service Families (Dr Andrew Murrison) We have
introduced a range of measures to support personnel and mitigate
the cost of living, including capping subsidised accommodation
charges,...Request free trial
Armed Forces: Cost of Living
(Motherwell and Wishaw)
(SNP)
1. What recent assessment his Department has made of the
potential impact of increases in the cost of living on the armed
forces' (a) morale and (b) recruitment.
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families
( )
We have introduced a range of measures to support personnel and
mitigate the cost of living, including capping subsidised
accommodation charges, freezing food charges, increasing travel
allowances, rebating contributions in lieu of council tax and
introducing wraparound childcare, saving £3,000 per child a year.
Additionally, over the past five years, the armed forces have
received a cumulative pay award of 11%, with 2022 being the
biggest percentage uplift in 20 years.
According to the House of Commons Library, this Westminster
Government plan to spend £3 billion on renewing nuclear weapons
for this financial year 2023-24. The UK Government are making a
political choice on weapons of mass destruction. When we have
seen reports of service people and their families using food
banks, does the Minister think that is a wise use of public
funds?
Dr Murrison
I have to differ with the hon. Lady. I fully support the
continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent. It has kept us safe all
these years, and so long as we have a Conservative Government,
there will be a continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent. It is a pity
that her party cannot line up behind the men and women of our
armed forces, who are committed to that deterrent.
Veterans Support
(Lewisham East) (Lab)
2. What recent steps Veterans UK has taken to support veterans
and their families.
(Portsmouth South) (Lab)
18. What recent steps Veterans UK has taken to support veterans
and their families.
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families
( )
We will shortly be publishing the quinquennial review into the
armed forces compensation scheme and the independent review of
Government provision of welfare services for veterans. Between
them, they will ensure that the scheme remains fit for purpose
and that we identify areas for improvement and better align
support services. Crucially, we will continue to press ahead with
the £40 million digital transformation of paper-based
processes.
At the last Defence orals, I stated that claims to the Veterans
UK compensation scheme have dropped and rejections have risen
compared with a decade ago. The Minister for Armed Forces, the
right hon. Member for Wells () said that the Department’s
digital programme would address that. Is the Minister for Defence
People, Veterans and Service Families concerned about the
structural issues with the scheme? I say that because even the
independent reviewer has said that the scheme’s process is
“overly burdensome and even distressing for the claimant due to
unreasonable timeframes and a lack of transparency.”
I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.
Dr Murrison
I am glad that the hon. Lady has asked that question, because two
reviews are under way: the quinquennial review and the review
being launched jointly by the Ministry of Defence and the Office
for Veterans’ Affairs. I suspect strongly that those reviews will
bring forward recommendations to improve processes, but all
institutions have to change with time, and this is no different.
I am pleased to note that fewer claims are now going to appeal or
tribunal, and that is our measure of success. I pay tribute to
those who administer such things; they work very hard.
Over the past year, the number of veterans claiming universal
credit has increased by 50%. How does the Minister plan to help
veterans in receipt of universal credit to acquire the skills
they need to access well-paid employment?
Dr Murrison
Universal credit is an in-work benefit that will affect a small
number of service people. The hon. Gentleman will know that we
have done everything we can to mitigate cost of living rises. I
said in response to the previous question that we have a freeze
on accommodation costs, a freeze on food and a contribution to
offset increases in council tax. All those things are helping our
service personnel at this difficult time. We will continue to do
what we can to mitigate those cost of living increases.
(North Wiltshire) (Con)
One group of veterans to whom a gross injustice was done many
years ago is the LGBT community, who until 2001 were
court-martialled, shamed and dismissed. That shame is still with
them today and has not yet been corrected. The Government
perfectly properly commissioned a report by to look into the whole
matter, and I understand it was provided last week. Will the
Government undertake to produce that report and make an oral
statement to this House to discuss it? Above all, will they give
the apology it calls for and accept the need for financial
compensation that those veterans deserve?
Dr Murrison
I suspect I will be asked the same question on Saturday, when I
attend London Pride. The Etherton report has been delivered. It
is pretty magisterial, as we would expect from Terence Etherton,
with a number of recommendations that we are working through.
When we respond, it will be a proper response, and I hope it will
satisfy my hon. Friend.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
(Luton South) (Lab)
We are going—
Mr Speaker
We will have to wait until Saturday, I think.
The Minister will be pressed again for his response—he will not
have to wait until Saturday—because until 2000 it was illegal to
be gay in the UK armed forces. The loss of livelihoods and
long-term suffering endured by LGBT+ veterans as a result of that
cruel and unjust policy has been immense. I am pleased that there
is such cross-party agreement about the publication of the report
being so important to those who have experienced such injustice,
but 18 months on there is still no report and no Government
apology. Will the Minister confirm specifically when the report
will be published in full, with all testimony, and when we can
expect an apology from the Prime Minister for this historic
injustice?
Dr Murrison
It was this Government who set up the review. This situation was
going on from 1967 to 2000, and it was an appalling stain on all
of us, so I am really pleased that, at long last, the Government
have gripped it. I am afraid that the hon. Lady will have to be a
little bit more patient, but I suspect that we will publish the
report and a response very soon indeed.
Size of Armed Forces
(South Shields) (Lab)
3. What steps he is taking to end the hollowing out of the armed
forces.
The Secretary of State for Defence ( )
The Government have injected more than £29 billion of additional
funding into defence since 2020, investing in Army modernisation,
major platforms such as Type 26, Type 31, Challenger 3 and F-35,
and restocking of ammunition to ensure that we reversed the
hollowing out of our armed forces that has occurred under
successive Governments for the past 30 years.
Mrs Lewell-Buck
I thank the Secretary of State for that response, but only
recently the Deputy Supreme Allied Commander Europe said that
Britain is “just holding on” to its status as one of NATO’s
leading members and that our Army is “too small”. A former Chief
of the Defence Staff said that all of our armed forces are too
small, with the Army having “significant capability
deficiencies”. The Government are failing our forces, are they
not?
Mr Wallace
It is interesting, because of course it was Labour that cut 19
battalions from the Army when I was serving under the hon.
Member’s Government. What is important is not just that the Army
is the right size but that it is an Army that is properly
equipped and able to do its job. Having just numbers and
non-equipment leads to the place where we had Snatch Land Rovers
in Afghanistan under her Government.
Mr Speaker
I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.
(Bournemouth East) (Con)
I endorse the words of my Defence Committee colleague, the hon.
Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck). The Secretary of
State himself has used the words
“the hollowing out of our Armed Forces”.
Today, the Head of the Army said at the Royal United Services
Institute’s land warfare conference that our world is heading
back into the 1930s with growing threats. Does the Secretary of
State agree that the Treasury’s argument for increasing Defence
spending to 2.5% of GDP when the economics improve is not only
naive but illogical, because our economy and our national
security are one and the same thing? We need to invest in our
Army, Air Force and Navy now, not when Britain’s economy
improves.
Mr Wallace
My right hon. Friend makes an important point about levels of
Defence spending. First, spend on the Army is 20% higher since I
started as Defence Secretary, and I have made sure that a greater
proportion of that spend is on catching up and modernising the
armed forces, which had been neglected all the way back to
Afghanistan and Iraq, where we were spending money on urgent
operational requirements rather than the core budget to modernise
that equipment.
On my right hon. Friend’s point about the Treasury, it has
accepted—the Chancellor did so at the Dispatch Box—that Defence
will require a greater share of public spending. Part of the big
challenge is recognition across Government and in Whitehall that
the culture has changed, with Defence requiring a greater
proportion of spend if it is to defend these shores and indeed
our people. That is how it used to be. I am confident that the
Prime Minister’s support for 2.5% and the Chancellor’s position
puts us on the right path, and of course that could not be needed
quicker.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
(Wentworth and Dearne)
(Lab)
In January, the Defence Secretary admitted that his Government
have “hollowed out and underfunded” our armed forces and, in the
past week, a string of senior military figures have agreed.
NATO’s second-in-command said that the British Army is “too
small”, a former Chief of the Defence Staff said
“The Army is now too weak”,
and another ex-CDS said:
“The hollowing out of warfighting resilience within the Armed
Forces has been the single most obvious shortfall…since
2010”.
Will the Defence Secretary halt this hollowing out in his new
Defence Command Paper? Will it be published this month, as he has
promised?
Mr Wallace
Time and again the right hon. Gentleman comes to this House
knowing full well that my statements on hollowing out are not
about this Government but about successive Governments for the
past 30 years. Mr Speaker, I ask you to look at that statement,
because it verges on misleading the House. The right hon.
Gentleman knows that is a fact; I have consistently pointed out
that that is not the case, but he continues to use it in this
House.
We have started to reverse through an increase of £29 billion in
the core funding of the armed forces. Whatever I have done with
that new money, I have made sure that it is there to properly
equip and support all the people of the armed forces. There is no
point playing a numbers game when men and women could be sent to
the frontline without the right equipment. All we see from the
Opposition is a numbers game with no money attached.
I have the Secretary of State’s exact words here. After inviting
me to get Labour’s shortcomings off my chest, he said:
“I am happy to say that we have hollowed out and
underfunded.”—[Official Report, 30 January 2023; Vol. 727, c.
18.]
He boasts about being the longest serving Tory Defence Secretary,
but in four years he has failed to halt that hollowing out; he
has failed to fix the broken procurement system; he has failed to
win fresh funding this year, even to cover inflation; and he has
failed to stop service morale reaching record lows. Does he not
find it a national embarrassment for Britain to go to next
month’s NATO summit as one of only five NATO nations that has not
rebooted defence plans since President Putin invaded Ukraine?
Mr Wallace
On that quote, I asked if he would admit that Labour had hollowed
out during its term of office. How convenient it is to forget
that the whole point is that, in the 30 years following the cold
war, successive Governments pushed defence to the side and not to
the centre. He talks about my defence record; let us look at
defence procurement, since he is fond of coming to the Dispatch
Box about that. In 2009 under Labour, 15% of armed forces
projects were over cost and the average delay was 28%. Now, 4%
are over cost and 15% of each project is delayed. We cut the
bureaucracy in Defence Equipment and Support from over 27,000 to
11,400. That is value for money. At the same time, we have a real
increase in the defence budget and we have injected £29 billion
of additional funding.
Nuclear Test Medals
(Salford and Eccles)
(Lab)
4. What steps he is taking to issue nuclear test medals to
veterans before Remembrance Sunday 2023.
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families
( )
The hon. Lady will welcome the commemorative nuclear test medal
announced by the Prime Minister in November last year to
recognise service veterans and civilian personnel who
participated in the UK’s atmospheric nuclear test programme
between 1952 and 1967. The first nuclear test medals are expected
to be available this autumn—I hope in time for Remembrance
Sunday.
A nuclear testing veteran has said:
“We have heard it all before, governments come and go, but the
Nuclear Veterans keep fighting, that’s exactly what we did for
our country all them years ago, so please, no more false promises
just action…award us our medal”.
He speaks for the thousands who were promised medallic
recognition by the Prime Minister on 22 November last year.
Sadly, they are now informed that the medal has been delayed
again by the Government. What is the delay? Why is it happening?
Will the Minister categorically promise the House today that
those veterans, whose average age is now 85, will finally be
awarded their medals before Remembrance Sunday so that they and
their descendants can proudly wear them?
Dr Murrison
Once again I remind the hon. Lady that it is this Government who
got on and made the announcement on 22 November last year. I very
much hope that by 22 November the veterans will get their medals.
It is my sincere hope that by Remembrance Sunday they will be
able to wear proudly what is due to them.
Ukraine: Military Support
(Colne Valley) (Con)
5. What recent steps his Department has taken to provide military
support to Ukraine.
(Chelmsford) (Con)
8. What recent steps his Department has taken to provide military
support to Ukraine.
The Secretary of State for Defence ( )
The UK continues to be recognised as a leading nation providing
military support to Ukraine, training more than 17,000 recruits
and providing £2.3 billion-worth of support last year and this
year. We have sent hundreds of thousands of rounds of artillery
ammunition, thousands of missiles and hundreds of armoured
vehicles. We have led the world on gifting vital capabilities
such as multiple launch rocket systems, Challenger 2 and Storm
Shadow missiles.
As well as contributing through the international fund for
Ukraine and the Ukraine defence contact group, I really welcome
that the UK has contributed an additional £60 million to NATO’s
comprehensive assistance package for Ukraine, which focuses on
capacity building in key areas such as cyber and logistics. What
is my right hon. Friend’s assessment of whether Ukraine is
receiving the right kind of assistance from NATO to support its
longer-term ambitions for NATO membership?
Mr Wallace
NATO’s comprehensive assistance package for Ukraine is providing
urgent non-lethal assistance to enable the defence of Ukraine.
The CAP also focuses on meeting Ukraine’s longer-term needs,
including reconstruction and transition to NATO standards, which
are essential for countries wishing to join the alliance. Since
February 2022, the UK has contributed £82 million to the CAP.
In the past few days there have been deeply alarming reports in
our press that Russian forces may have placed highly destructive
mines at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. What assessment
has the Secretary of State made of the risk of a major nuclear
incident?
Mr Wallace
My right hon. Friend asks a very important question about the
risk posed by Russian activity not only within its own borders,
but in Ukraine and at the nuclear power station of Zaporizhzhia.
Sadly, Russia has shown no restraint in using munitions against
civilian structures, critical national infrastructure, hospitals,
surgeries and so on, which add to the long list of war crimes
that it has clearly been engaged in. We monitor it very closely.
We work with the international community to ensure that
everything that can be done is done to protect the nuclear power
station, and to remind Russia, not only through us but through
third countries, of its obligations to protect the civilian
population.
Sir (Rhondda) (Lab)
I fully support the provision of all the munitions that we have
been able to give to Ukraine. I hope we will be able to continue
to do that for the foreseeable future, and certainly until Putin
loses. It seems that quite often different allies of Ukraine are
giving different kinds of bits and pieces of armament and
munitions, and that that does not necessarily add up to more than
the sum of its parts. Would it not be better if we now looked to
the future by commissioning jointly, so that we get more matériel
at cost directly through to Ukraine?
Mr Wallace
The hon. Gentleman makes a really important point. To better
co-ordinate the gifting, at the beginning we set up the
International Donor Co-ordination Centre, with about 80 British
personnel in the lead, alongside the United States, to ensure
that what Ukraine is asking for is what it gets and that it is
co-ordinated across the international community, because we all
have different armouries. In recognition of his very important
point about how we develop and encourage a sustainable supply
chain to Ukraine, Britain alongside Denmark set up the
international fund for Ukraine. We committed £250 million last
year and another £250 million this year, and it is topping up
towards €1 billion-plus of funding. One specific task is to
commission effectively from supply chains and manufacturing
plants, so that there is a long-term solution to the need and
munition is rolling off production lines. We all have finite
stocks, which is why we will use the cash in the fund to start
commissioning, which we have already done.
(Tiverton and Honiton)
(LD)
The Liberal Democrats support the Secretary of State on the
supply of arms and equipment to Ukraine for its sovereign
defence. Has he assessed what effect the Storm Shadow missile has
had on operations? Will he tell us whether other allies, such as
the United States, also intend to provide long-range precision
guided missiles?
Mr Wallace
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. My understanding is that the
Storm Shadow missile has had a significant impact on the
battlefield. Its accuracy and ability to deliver successfully the
payload, as sent and designed by the Ukrainians, has been almost
without fault. That is an extraordinary achievement in terms of
both the engineering that went into it, and the Ukrainians
deploying it and using it as it needs to. It has had an effect on
the Russian army, mainly around its logistics and command and
control. That shows the importance of deep fires. We absolutely
urge other international partners to come forward with their deep
fires that are required. When HIMARS was put in on the M270s,
which have a range of 80 km, that had a similar effect and the
Russians moved many of its C2 nodes out of range, which is why
deep fires became important. The key is to recognise that if the
Russians move out of range, we must work together internationally
to provide the equipment to ensure they are back in range.
Armed Forces: Skills
(Cheadle) (Con)
6. What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the armed
forces have the skills required for the future.
(North Devon) (Con)
13. What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the armed
forces have the skills required for the future.
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families
( )
Last week, the Ministry of Defence published the Haythornthwaite
review of armed forces incentivisation. Rick Haythornthwaite and
his team have done an absolutely brilliant job. The MOD is now
working out how to implement the recommendations, but I think it
true to say that Haythornthwaite addresses our pressing need to
build a firm foundation for an increasingly skills-based future
in which the MOD will have to compete extremely hard if it is to
continue to recruit and retain the very best.
In February of last year, we were informed that the Ministry of
Defence was
“actively considering recruiting people with neurodiversity”.
That will have given hope to many, including a constituent of
mine who does not believe that his autism diagnosis should be a
barrier to service. Can my right hon. Friend tell me what the
status is of those considerations, and will the MOD consider
running a pilot scheme so that neurodiverse individuals can be
encouraged to give their skills to the armed forces?
Dr Murrison
We are very proud of the wide-ranging make-up of our armed
forces, which includes many neurodiverse people. The
Haythornthwaite review recognises that tomorrow’s defence will be
very different from today’s, and that its people will be as well.
I agree with the thrust of my hon. Friend’s perceptive question,
and anticipate that the skills and attributes that we will need
in the future will mean our casting the net much more widely than
before.
In North Devon, our two military bases, Chivenor and Arromanches,
have units specialising in logistics, engineering and unmanned
marine technologies. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to
encourage more budding young engineers to fulfil their technical
education and work prospects in our armed forces?
Dr Murrison
The Ministry of Defence is deeply committed to supporting future
engineers both inside and outside the armed forces, and is one of
the largest deliverers of UK apprenticeships: we have 22,000
personnel on 100 different apprenticeships at any one time.
Furthermore, the Haythornthwaite review and the pan-defence
skills framework will take the skilling of our defence people to
the next level.
(Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for his response. Northern Ireland is one of
the leading regions of the United Kingdom that are pushing
cyber-security very hard. Has the Minister given any
consideration to ensuring that companies that are involved in
cyber-security, of which there are many not only in Northern
Ireland but in the south-east of England, could work in
partnership with the MOD to ensure that the skills to be found in
private companies can be used in the Army?
Dr Murrison
I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. I think that in future
we will see much more zig-zagging between the armed forces and
the industry and back again, and, indeed, Haythornthwaite touches
on the subject of so-called zig-zag careers. I expect to see a
much closer working relationship between the armed forces and
industry in the future: we are all in it together.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
(Plymouth, Sutton and
Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
On Armed Forces Day last week, as a nation we thanked our armed
forces for their service, and as a nation we rightly invest in
the skills of those who serve, but year after year we are seeing
more people with essential skills leaving the forces.
Satisfaction with service life has plummeted from a recorded high
of 61% under Labour in 2009 to 42% today, and among junior ranks
it is even lower, at 39%. What is the Minister’s plan to restore
morale in order to help to retain the skills that we need in our
armed forces, and does he expect armed forces morale to be higher
or lower than it is today by the time of the next general
election?
Dr Murrison
It was a great pleasure to see the hon. Gentleman in Falmouth for
Armed Forces Day at the weekend.
The armed forces continuous attitude survey was established in
2007 by the last Labour Government. It is interesting to look
back at what the figures were then. There was no Labour nirvana.
We find from the 2007 figures that the percentage saying that
morale is high or higher is about the same now as in 2007.
[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman may chunter, but these are the
facts. The percentage feeling valued has risen significantly, as
has the percentage who would recommend their career to a friend.
It is hardly surprising that satisfaction with kit, for example,
is much better now than it was then. We remember 2007 and the
Snatch Land Rovers—coffins on wheels—and we remember, do we not,
the appalling kit with which the then Labour Government provided
our armed forces in Iraq and then Afghanistan. I think that
Labour’s record is nothing to be proud of.
NATO
(Gedling) (Con)
7. What recent steps his Department has taken to strengthen NATO
unity.
The Secretary of State for Defence ( )
I regularly engage with NATO allies, including most recently at
the NATO Defence Ministers’ meeting on 15 and 16 June, at which
we demonstrated our continued solidarity with Ukraine and
preparations for the upcoming Vilnius leaders’ summit. We lobbied
hard and successfully for Finnish NATO membership, resulting in
Finland’s historic accession, and we hope to achieve the same for
Sweden before long.
I welcome the announcement at the NATO Defence Ministers’
conference that NATO has agreed a new UK-based maritime centre to
support the security of undersea infrastructure. Can my right
hon. Friend assure me that this new centre is part of a long-term
plan for the alliance to secure better critical undersea
infrastructure? Can he provide any further details on the role of
this new unit?
Mr Wallace
I am delighted that NATO will host its new Maritime Centre for
the Security of Critical Undersea Infrastructure in the UK. The
centre is part of NATO’s long-term plan to better secure our
undersea infrastructure. Bringing together allies and industry,
the centre will result in greater situational awareness and
sharing of intelligence, expertise and innovation. It will also
complement the latest Royal Navy ship, RFA Proteus, whose job is
to go out and monitor critical supply lines and cyber cables.
(North Durham) (Lab)
NATO was created to protect democracy and safeguard the values
that underpin it. A year ago, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly
passed a resolution, under the presidency of Congressman Gerry
Connolly, to create a democracy resilience centre within NATO. I
understand that this has been agreed by all nations bar one. I
wonder whether at the upcoming summit the Secretary of State can
put some effort behind persuading that one member to agree to
this initiative.
Mr Wallace
I think it is best if I write to the right hon. Member about the
details of that. I will look at it and am happy to discuss with
him what he thinks needs to progress. We will get to the bottom
of it.
War Widow Pensions
Sir (New Forest East) (Con)
9. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of his
Department’s implementation of the lump-sum payments for war
widows who previously lost their pensions after remarrying or
cohabiting with another partner.
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families
( )
I was delighted to announce the war widows ex gratia payment
scheme last month. A specialist team is being stood up to deal
with applications and assist and advise widows when the process
opens. This will ensure that people are treated with the care
they deserve and that their individual needs are met. The scheme
will start as soon as possible, and in any event by this autumn,
and will be open for two years. It will not erase their loss, but
I hope that this payment will offer some comfort to those
affected. I again pay tribute to the staunch, dignified
campaigning of the War Widows Association, which has brought us
to this point; I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend, who
has been absolutely four-square behind the campaign.
Sir
In return, I would like to thank Ministers for persevering with
the matter in the face of many obstacles erected by the Treasury.
There is just one last hurdle to surmount: the question of
taxation of the ex gratia payment. As war widows’ pensions are a
recognition of sacrifice and not a benefit, they are not taxed.
If this ex gratia payment is taxed, some war widows will get only
slightly more than half the lump sum concerned. Will my right
hon. Friend use his very best endeavours to avoid that unintended
and unfortunate result of an otherwise successful initiative?
Dr Murrison
I fully understand the point that my right hon. Friend is making.
He will know that the payment was uplifted to take tax into
account. I appreciate that it may not be taking care of all tax
in many, if not most, circumstances. What I will say to him,
without setting any hares running, is that I am having a
conversation with colleagues, but I emphasise that it is around
how we deal with tax on this payment. I cannot really give him
any more comfort than that.
Innovative Defence Technology
(Chipping Barnet)
(Con)
10. What steps his Department is taking to support the
development of innovative defence technologies.
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
The Ministry of Defence works closely with UK industry and
academia, including small and medium-sized enterprises, to
identify and invest in innovative technologies that address our
most pressing capability challenges, as well as publishing our
future priorities to incentivise investment. We are transforming
processes to drive this at pace, and we are already testing and
deploying these technologies.
The integrated review said that artificial intelligence would be
used to strengthen defence capabilities. So in what ways are the
armed forces using AI and does the Minister agree that weapon
systems should always be subject to direct human control and
never be allowed to operate autonomously?
My right hon. Friend asks an excellent question and I know there
is huge public interest in AI. I make it clear that last year’s
defence AI strategy set out our intent to develop and use
artificial intelligence ambitiously, safely and responsibly. We
do not rule out incorporating AI within weapon systems, but we
are clear that there must be context-appropriate human
involvement in weapons that identify, select and attack targets.
The UK does not possess fully autonomous weapon systems and has
no intention of developing them. Finally, any weapon system used
by UK military would be governed by the MOD’s robust framework of
legal, safety and regulatory compliance regimes, irrespective of
the technology involved.
(Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Morpheus is a £3 billion next-generation defence communication
programme. It is meant to replace the Bowman kit on Ajax vehicles
and was originally set for introduction in 2025, but Ministers
have recently said that a revised initial operating capability is
“to be determined.” When can we please have a statement on the
state of play and the delivery of Morpheus?
The hon. Gentleman asks an important question on an important
programme. We are still committed to Morpheus, but there is a
limit to what I can say at the moment because we are having
contractual discussions with the supplier. I hope I can say more
in due course. On Ajax, I make it absolutely clear that the
intention is to upgrade the Bowman operating system within Ajax
as the next step.
Defence Procurement
(Sefton Central) (Lab)
11. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of
the defence procurement system.
(Warley) (Lab)
16. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of
the defence procurement system.
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
We are driving the delivery of capability to the frontline. Over
a two-year period to December 2022, we have seen a one-year
reduction in the average programme duration, but we can do more
to improve and are committed to learning the lessons of the
Sheldon review.
On 13 March, the Defence Secretary told me that UK steel was not
specified in defence procurement because
“we do not manufacture the type of steel”—[Official Report, 13
March 2023; Vol. 729, c. 529]
required. But according to UK steel producers, this is not true
as they adjust production lines to match the needs of each
contract. Now he knows our steel producers can deliver, will he
do what all other major countries do, for reasons of national
security, and guarantee to use domestically produced steel in
defence procurement?
I do not accept that. I am happy to write to the hon. Member with
the details. Our position is that, obviously, we want to use UK
steel and we recognise its quality, but there will be cases where
the appropriate steel has to be sourced from elsewhere.
Ultimately, we have to deliver the equipment required for our
capability.
It is probably a bit of a shame but, after missing out on the job
of Secretary-General of NATO, the Secretary of State seems to
have reverted to “no more Mr Nice Guy” mode today, although it
may improve as the day goes on.
I ask the Minister, in an amicable way, why, when every major
military-industrial power is relentlessly focused on building
domestic industrial capacity following Russia’s invasion of
Ukraine, he is stubbornly refusing to do the same. His previous
answer on steel shows again that the mindset has not changed. Why
will he not back British industry and British military
resilience?
I am happy to be Mr Nice Guy when it comes to British industry. A
central tenet of the defence and security industrial strategy is
that industrial capacity is part of our defence capability. I am
absolutely clear about that. Of course we want to have a strong
domestic industry. There are occasions when acquisition has to be
undertaken at pace and, as we have seen in getting equipment out
to Ukraine, we have had to be flexible in how we source that
equipment. But we are absolutely committed to a strong industrial
base for defence, both at SME level and with our primes.
(Filton and Bradley Stoke)
(Con)
Will my hon. Friend look at how the MOD can support the UK’s
domestic supply chain by requiring prime contractors to adhere to
a 30-day payment code for all defence suppliers, regardless of
where they sit in the supply chain?
My hon. Friend is a champion of SMEs and makes an excellent point
about prompt payment. I can assure him that the MOD has a
standard contract term that requires primes to pay suppliers
within 30 days. I am informed this is called DEFCON 534.
Obviously, it is not to be confused with other uses of the word
“DEFCON”, but it is a very important point. Like him, I want to
see our SMEs supported.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Minister.
(Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
When I asked the Minister for Defence Procurement to give a
statement on the Sheldon review two weeks ago, he recognised the
importance of workers to the defence industry. We have already
heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent () about the problems of Morpheus,
which I understand is now rated red by the MOD; the problems we
had on Ajax are emerging on Morpheus. One of the issues that came
out of the Sheldon review was that the company was not listening
to the voices of workers on the shop floor. What guarantee is the
Minister putting in place to ensure workers have a system for
reporting back, so that, when things go wrong, as with Ajax or,
potentially, Morpheus, they are reported, listened to and acted
upon?
As I said in the statement, I recognise the unique angle the hon.
Gentleman has on this issue, because the factory in question is
in his constituency. I stress that the employment of those
employees is the legal responsibility of the company. We engage
closely with them. One of the lessons learned is about that close
engagement at SRO level through Defence Equipment and Support.
Andy Start, CEO of DE&S, has led huge change in improving the
way we work together. I suspect we will continue to build on the
significant improvement the Secretary of State just highlighted,
in terms of both cost and timing, between when the Opposition was
last in power and now.
Mr Speaker
I call the SNP spokesperson .
(Angus) (SNP)
The previous Minister for Defence Procurement impressed many by
hitting the ground running. He developed a forensic grip on the
manifold issues within this dysfunctional area of defence and he
worked up a plan to try to deal with that. Sadly, he moved on
before he could implement that plan, so can I ask this latest
Minister for Defence Procurement, does he have a plan? What will
be the first evidence of that plan that our weary service
personnel and taxpayers might see?
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his praise for my
brilliant colleague, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member
for Cheltenham (), who is now Secretary of State
for Justice and the Lord Chancellor, no less. Absolutely, we have
a plan, and that plan must take into account the lessons from the
Sheldon review. In taking on this job, I recognise that there has
been huge focus on Ajax, but I hope the fact that Ajax is now
with the Household Cavalry for regular field training is a
symbolic moment that shows we are turning the corner. We are
going to engage right across defence to develop a better
procurement system, and I want to ensure that delivers better
outcomes. As I said at the Defence Committee, that is why we have
tasked the permanent secretary to undertake an end-to-end review
of the whole defence operating model.
That response could be loosely regarded as a stab at the previous
question, but it was certainly not an attempt to answer my
question. Let me try to probe a little further and give the
Minister some examples that he may wish to bombast us with about
the progress he is making. How has he challenged the pedestrian
progress towards the next phase of the new medium-lift helicopter
tender? What is the delay with the Type 32 or Type 31 successor
announcements? Why does his element of defence not procure
ground-based anti-aircraft missile systems to protect these
islands in a more responsible way?
The hon. Gentleman has ranged a long way, from air to ground. The
key element is to strengthen our speed and agility, whatever the
platform in question. Some of the platforms he refers to are at a
conceptual phase. I am committed to driving pace because,
although times are improving overall, ultimately we do not want
to have the delays we have had in some notable programmes. We
need pace because that is how we maintain our competitive edge
against our international adversaries.
Mr Speaker
Pacy answers would be helpful as well.
Service Accommodation
(Warwick and Leamington)
(Lab)
12. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of service
accommodation for the armed forces. [905607]
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families
( )
The Ministry of Defence fully recognises the importance of safe,
good-quality and well-maintained homes. In the last seven years,
the MOD has invested more than £936 million in service family
accommodation. That includes £185 million last year on
modernising homes, tackling damp and mould and improving thermal
efficiency. Currently, 97% of MOD SFA meet or exceed the
Government’s decent homes standard. Only those properties are
allocated to service families. We strive to do better but, for
context, the figure for social housing is 91%.
When he has been around various sites, I am sure the Minister
will have noticed the substandard quality of accommodation, and
indeed squalor in certain cases. He will also know that some 800
armed forces families are living in potentially unsafe homes that
have not yet had gas safety checks. Will he confirm what action
he and his Government are taking to make those homes safe?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. On gas and
electric safety, my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence
Procurement was made aware of the issue on 2 May and he worked
exceptionally quickly to remedy it. Currently, there are some 555
gas safety certificates outstanding. That number is plummeting
dramatically, and almost all of them will be cleared by the end
of June, which is a measure of some success.
(Rayleigh and Wickford)
(Con)
If a private or a professional landlord did not properly complete
these safety checks, they would be sued. It is completely
unacceptable that we put armed forces personnel and their loved
ones at risk for months because the Future Defence Infrastructure
Services contract that is meant to do that is completely broken.
If the head of the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, who is
meant to oversee this, is completely out of his depth, which some
of us believe he is, after this, should he not consider his
position?
Dr Murrison
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comments. The
important thing is that when my hon. Friend the Minister of State
got to know about this, he acted immediately to put the matter
right. I am not really interested in getting people’s scalps; I
am interested in putting the matter right, and that is exactly
what is happening.
EU Permanent Structured Cooperation
(North West Leicestershire)
(Reclaim)
14. What recent progress he has made on UK participation in the
EU permanent structured co-operation project.
The Minister for Armed Forces ()
The UK applied to join the permanent structured co-operation
military mobility project to help shape EU military transport
procedures and infrastructure, addressing impediments to moving
military personnel and assets across Europe at pace.
We are negotiating the technical terms of our participation in
the form of an administrative arrangement and have reached
agreement on the majority of the text.
Sir Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6, has given evidence to
House Committees on this issue and he questioned why we were
joining this and who had authorised it. He also stated that
membership of these European Union defence structures are not an
à la carte menu where the UK can choose what it wants and reject
what it does not. It is very much a take it or leave it, all or
nothing, situation. Does the Minister agree with Sir Richard’s
assessment?
Conspiracy is not as rife as the hon. Gentleman seems to think.
We can indeed choose which parts of the permanent structured
co-operation we wish to be in, and the mobility projects, which
co-ordinate the development of infrastructure for the movements
of NATO weapons and platforms across Europe, seem to be a pretty
good thing on which the UK should seek to co-operate with the
EU.
(Clwyd West) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend has mentioned, the UK at the moment is
considering acceding only to the military mobility element of
PESCO. There are, however, more than 60 separate elements. Can my
right hon. Friend indicate whether the Government are considering
joining any of those other elements?
We will consider those elements on a case-by-case basis. Where
there is merit and where it is in the UK interests to work with
the European Union to the advantage of NATO and our own national
interest, we will, of course, do so. However, we will do so not
blindly out of habit, but only where it is in our interests.
Topical Questions
(Blackpool South) (Ind)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental
responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Defence ( )
As part of its summer campaign to reclaim illegally occupied
territory, Ukraine has already recaptured approximately 300 sq
km. That is more territory than Russia has seized in its whole
winter offensive. Ukraine continues to make gradual but steady
tactical progress, undertaking major offensive operations on
three main axes in the south and eastern Ukraine. In Rohan,
Russian forces have made their own significant effort to launch
an attack on the Serebrianka forest near Kreminna. Russia has had
some small gains, but Ukrainian forces have prevented a
breakthrough. In Donetsk oblast, Ukraine has gained impetus in
its assaults around Bakhmut. In multiple brigade operations,
Ukrainian forces have made progress on both the north and
southern flanks of the town. Russia does not appear to have the
uncommitted ground forces needed to counter the multiple threats
that it is now facing from Ukraine, which extends over 200 km
from the Bakhmut to the eastern bank of the Dnieper river.
What discussions are the Government having with other NATO
members to ensure that every member of the alliance meets the 2%
spending targets?
Mr Wallace
As the Vilnius summit approaches, it is very important that we
recommit, and get other nations to recommit, to the targets and
to make sure that 2% is viewed as a floor, not a ceiling. It is
regrettable that only seven to eight nations in NATO are reaching
that target. Britain is, of course, above the 2%. This is very
important, because freedom is not free; we have to pay for it in
the end.
Mr Speaker
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
(Wentworth and Dearne)
(Lab)
The Prime Minister told last week’s Ukraine recovery conference
that
“we will maintain our support for Ukraine’s defence and for the
counter offensive”.
With the developments in recent days, surely now is the time to
accelerate, not just maintain, our military support for
Ukraine?
Mr Wallace
Our support for Ukraine is made up of £2.3 billion, not all of
which is committed. We continue to make sure that whatever
Ukraine needs, we can try to give it or, if we do not have it, to
use our network around the world to access it on their behalf. It
is also important to ensure that we all focus on this offensive
and give Ukraine what it needs for the offensive. The key test
will be getting through all those defensive lines and ensuring
that Russia is pushed back and is challenged from going into
effectively a frozen conflict, which of course Russia would like.
While it is easy for us to say that from the comfort of London,
it is important to note that there are Ukrainian men and women
going through minefields and horrendous obstacle crossings and
facing an army that commits war crimes every single day.
(Kettering) (Con)
T2. Is the Secretary of State confident that Sweden’s NATO
membership application will be approved this year?
Mr Wallace
I would say that I am optimistic. In my phone call with my new
Turkish counterpart last week, that was one of the first subjects
I raised. I have also spoken consistently and on many occasions
with Türkiye and its leadership. I am confident that we will get
there in the end. Sweden has made significant strides in its
counter-terrorism legislation to deal with some of the issues
that Türkiye has raised, and I think Türkiye now recognises that
as a strong effort.
(Warley) (Lab)
T3. Can the Minister give us a progress report on the
contract for the fleet solid support ships? Given that three of
those are equivalent to two aircraft carriers in size, can he
confirm where the steel is coming from?
The Minister for Defence Procurement ()
The right hon. Gentleman is very persistent. I will have to check
that point for him.
(Gedling) (Con)
T5. I was recently invited to visit the Army cadets in
Arnold in my constituency, to see the work they are doing and the
skills they are learning, from drill instruction to
cardiopulmonary resuscitation. I was never a cadet myself, but
will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating Ben Mickle in
Arnold and others across Nottinghamshire on the work they are
doing in running cadet services, and will he encourage children
and young people to take part?
The Minister for Defence People, Veterans and Service Families
( )
I congratulate staff sergeant Mickle and his fellow instructors.
Many of us were out and about for National Armed Forces Day on
Saturday and saw some of our wonderful cadets. I pay tribute to
all those instructors who put in so many hours to make it all
possible.
(Streatham) (Lab)
T4. I have been asking the Prime Minister and other
Ministers about Government bodies spying on the activities of
British citizens, including politicians, activists and
journalists. In a statement issued in 2020 the Ministry of
Defence said that the British Army’s information warfare unit,
the 77th Brigade,“do not, and have never, conducted any kind of
action against British citizens.”However, the Secretary of State
said on 30 January that the 77th Brigade scours Twitter “to
assess UK disinformation”. Can the Minister clarify whether the
77th Brigade conducts any surveillance actions against British
citizens, for what purpose, and whether that is really the best
use of its time?
Mr Wallace
A whole range of agencies, including the 77th Brigade, will study
media platforms that deliver social media to our citizens in this
country. If that comes from a foreign state trying to manipulate
our young people, it is obviously a concern. As a former Security
Minister I saw the radicalisation, exploitation and sexual
exploitation of people through those platforms, and we should all
be grateful that those systems are monitored.
(Aldridge-Brownhills)
(Con)
T8. Questions today have highlighted the importance of
strong deterrence. Accordingly, people across the UK, including
my constituents, will be taking a keen interest in the outcome of
the NATO leaders summit in Vilnius in a couple of weeks. Will my
right hon. Friend outline what he would consider positive
outcomes for UK defence at that summit?
Mr Wallace
My right hon. Friend asks an important question about the Vilnius
summit, which comes at an important moment for NATO and on the
heels of war in Europe and the invasion of Ukraine. The summit
will also be an important transition where NATO allies build on
the commitments they made at the Madrid summit and go further and
faster to bolster Euro-Atlantic security. The UK remains
committed to supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes. The most
powerful deterrent is our commitment to article 5 of the North
Atlantic treaty, backed up by modern, credible forces, and that
continues to hold firm.
(Leeds North West)
(Lab/Co-op)
T6. With the conclusion of events in Russia on Saturday being
that Prigozhin has been relocated to Belarus, and Russian
tactical nuclear weapons have also been relocated to Belarus, has
the Secretary of State undertaken an assessment of the threat to
Belarus, which is on the eastern flank of NATO and across much of
the northern border of Ukraine? Will it form part of the
discussions at the NATO summit in Vilnius?
Mr Wallace
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point about the role of
Belarus. First, we should recognise that, so far in this illegal
invasion of Ukraine by Russia, Belarus has simply supported
through the use of its bases, but has itself committed no forces,
and the international community would very clearly warn Belarus
that it should not do so and join Russia in the folly it is
engaged in. It is, of course, a deep concern when we see Russia
trying to use Belarus as a sort of satellite state or, indeed, a
place to put its nuclear weapons. We keep that under constant
review, and we make sure, in the strongest possible terms, that
Belarus is aware of the international concerns about its
behaviour.
(Lichfield) (Con)
The war in Ukraine will have given us some insight into Russia’s
war tactics. The defence Command Paper will soon be published,
and it will look at investment decisions for the British Army and
the armed forces in general from the 2030s and beyond. What
lessons have been learned from the war in Ukraine? Can the
Secretary of State give us some insight into what sort of
investment will be undertaken?
Mr Wallace
The defence Command Paper will be published before recess—I hope
that it will be published sooner rather than later; it is
currently in the write-round process with the rest of
Government—and we will make sure that we recognise what has
happened in Ukraine. One of the biggest lessons of Ukraine is
that, whatever army we commit, we must make sure that it is
protected 360° with air defence, electronic warfare, signals
intelligence and the ability to reach at range.
(Warwick and Leamington)
(Lab)
T7. In terms of aircraft carriers, it seems that the Prince
of Wales is the spare. Why are Ministers struggling to manage the
repairs of that vital NATO flagship?
That is an amusing way of putting the question but it is a
serious point. Our plans have not been affected in operational
terms because it was always planned that the Prince of Wales
would return to flight trials this autumn, and that remains on
schedule.
(Chingford and Woodford
Green) (Con)
Forty years ago, Sir Galahad was struck during the Falklands
crisis, and many Welsh Guardsmen lost their lives and burned to
death. I have just attended a meeting of the widows and children,
and some of the veterans, who have been desperate to get to the
bottom of exactly why that happened but have been blocked through
“no releases”. I beg my right hon. Friend to allow colleagues
from across the House to come and see him about the release of
that information.
Mr Wallace
My right hon. Friend might like to know that former colleagues of
mine from the Household Division—from the Welsh Guards and
others—have also been in contact with me. I have asked to see the
papers that have not been released. I am not sure what powers I
have to overrule decisions that were made earlier, but I think
that that is important for closure and for relatives to get to
the bottom of their questions.
(Glasgow South West)
(SNP)
T9. ACVC Hub, Community Veterans Support and Helping Heroes are
three wonderful charities helping veterans in Glasgow South West.
Veterans’ mental health is still an emerging field, so will
Ministers consider providing a costed research and development
plan to find innovative approaches to that vital research?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the range of mental health
support services that are open to our veterans, particularly Op
Courage and, he will be interested to note, Op Fortitude. Of
course, there is always more we can do, particularly for those
who have suffered as a result of their service, but I think it
important to say that, in general, service in our armed forces is
a positive for mental health, not a negative.
(Bracknell) (Con)
I accept that we will hear a Foreign, Commonwealth and
Development Office statement in due course, but given the events
over the weekend, what assessment has the MOD made of Ukraine’s
ability to win in Ukraine?
Mr Wallace
The United Kingdom has always been confident that, given the
right international support, leadership and investment, Ukraine
can defend its nation and see off this aggressive, illegal
Russian invasion.
(Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch
and Strathspey) (SNP)
The armed forces continuous attitude survey results have just
been published. They show that less than a third of personnel
believe that their basic pay is adequate, and nearly a quarter
are looking to leave the forces. Will the Secretary of State
admit that it is high time that he increased basic pay across the
public service, but especially for those in uniform?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Armed Forces Pay Review
Body has reported, and that will be released shortly. Pay is part
of a wider remuneration package, which includes an excellent
non-contributory pension, subsidised accommodation, wraparound
childcare, incremental pay, and a range of allowances. The
non-financial aspects of the offer are also highly valued. What
is not highly valued, frankly, are the tax increases that the SNP
introduced in February, which make servicemen in Scotland much
worse off than those in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Mr Speaker
has gone, so let us have
Simon Jupp—he is a man on his feet.
(East Devon) (Con)
The Royal Marines Charity, based in East Devon, helps to provide
support to former servicemen and women in Devon, who we
celebrated on Saturday as part of Armed Forces Day. What
assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the welfare provision
for veterans in Devon?
Dr Murrison
I am sorry that I was not in Devon on Saturday; I was next door
in Cornwall, commemorating our armed forces, as my hon. Friend
was.
There is a range of welfare support services in Devon. My hon.
Friend will be aware of the regional welfare support operation
there, which has expert welfare officers who can look after the
needs of our wonderful veterans. Of course we can always do more,
but I would cite, as I just have, Op Courage and, now, Op
Fortitude, which I think will be of great assistance.
(Midlothian) (SNP)
While we wait for the upcoming pay review, may I ask what
assessment the Minister’s Department has made of relative poverty
rates among our service personnel and, while they await a
significant pay rise, what work it is doing with the Department
for Work and Pensions to signpost colleagues to the benefits that
they are eligible for?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, in addition to pay, things
such as wraparound childcare and subsidised healthcare and dental
care are available to members of our armed forces, as well as
subsidised accommodation, the freezing of food charges and help
with council tax—things that we have done in these difficult
times to take the edge off the cost of living crisis. I hope he
will welcome that.
(Southport) (Con)
Nowhere does events as well as my Southport constituency. This
weekend’s Armed Forces Day was truly testament to that fact, so
would my right hon. Friend welcome and support an application
from Southport to host the national Armed Forces Day in 2025?
Mr Wallace
May I place on record our gratitude to Cornwall Council and
Falmouth, and all the organisers of the national Armed Forces Day
this year—the town laid on an extraordinary event, which was a
great tribute to the men and women of the armed forces—as well as
all the other local authorities that laid on events up and down
the country? Of course I would welcome a bid from Southport; I
will also welcome bids from all over the country, and I look
forward to this becoming a growing competition to recognise the
men and women of our armed forces.
(North Shropshire) (LD)
On 24 October 2021, the former Defence Minister, the right hon.
Member for Horsham (), wrote to my predecessor and
confirmed that a badly injured veteran in my constituency would
receive adaptations to his home. Delays ensued, and last week I
had a meeting with someone from the Defence Infrastructure
Organisation, in which he declined to turn his camera on and said
that the work had not been signed off by a person with the right
authority. Will the Minister confirm whether the former Minister
had the authority, and will he honour that commitment?
The hon. Lady is more than welcome to write to me with the
details, and I will look into this as soon as possible.
(Truro and Falmouth)
(Con)
As we have already heard, we were lucky enough to welcome the
national armed forces family to Falmouth on Saturday for the
national Armed Forces Day. From cadets to veterans, and those
involved in their air display and all the national armed forces
personnel, will the Secretary of State join me in thanking
everybody for their efforts, and does he agree that this was the
best Armed Forces Day we have ever experienced?
Mr Wallace
My hon. Friend is certainly the best MP for Falmouth. She has
been very good at lobbying and making the case for Falmouth,
which put on an excellent event, although I am not going to risk
insulting all the previous locations, which all did a fantastic
job as well.
(York Central)
(Lab/Co-op)
With the MOD estate an outlier in allowing trail hunting on its
land, and with the memorandum of understanding to allow hunt
monitoring access having been torn up—something determined
personally by the Defence Secretary—will the right hon. Gentleman
confirm that his delayed statutory response in terminating the
MOU will be answered, and will he instruct an independent review
of hunting on the MOD estate and the activities of the Royal
Artillery Hunt? Or has he something to hide?
Mr Wallace
Nothing to hide. To hunt on my Department’s land, an organisation
must have a recognised governing body. All persons participating
in a hunt must be members of such an organisation, and that
organisation must also hold an MOD-issued licence, the terms of
which clearly state that only trail hunting carried out in
accordance with the provisions of the Hunting Act 2004 are
permitted. I withdrew the MOU—which had never been announced to
Parliament under the hon. Lady’s party’s previous
Government—because the only people who should be masked and
camouflaged on MOD land are soldiers in training, not hunt
saboteurs.
|
