Extract from Welsh Parliament: Topical Questions - Jun 21

Andrew R.T. Davies MS: What assessment has the Minister made of 61 drink retailers operating in Wales writing an open letter to the Welsh Government calling for the exclusion of glass from its deposit-return scheme in line with the rest of the UK? 

Lee Waters MS Deputy Minister for Climate Change: Thank you. We welcome the engagement of the drink retailers in the development of the deposit-return scheme, and we will work with them to bring forward a successful and effective scheme.

Andrew R.T. Davies MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for that response. Do you recognise the genuine concerns that these businesses, 61 of them, have made to the Welsh Government over the complexity, the commercial disadvantage, and what they say and others have made representations over is that there is not the necessary impact on recycling targets and actually, the complexity of recycling that could come about by the deposit-return scheme including glass?

At the moment, we have good recycling rates, something I do commend the Welsh Government over, and we do have good kerbside recycling as well, but these concerns raised by businesses on the front line that are employing and creating wealth in communities the length and breadth of Wales do need to be taken seriously, and in particular, based on the comments that the First Minister made yesterday about cost recovery, if the Welsh Government do continue to proceed down this road of including glass in the deposit-return scheme, will the Welsh Government make available financial moneys so that they can be compensated for the extra measures they have to put in place and the extra machinery and training they will have to do, because the First Minister indicated that that should be a priority for any Government that is introducing regulatory reforms in any area that it's responsible for?

Lee Waters MS: Well, 'Scotland's Deposit return Scheme will help tackle the plague of glass bottles littering communities because its inclusion of glass will see the recycling of an additional 53,000 tonnes of containers. It would be fantastic to see such a boost to recycling here in Wales too'.

That's a quote from Janet Finch-Saunders, who has consistently argued in favour of including glass in the deposit-return scheme. And in fairness to Janet Finch-Saunders, that, in fact, was in the Conservative manifesto in the 2019 election, and it was the basis on which we have consulted with the public, jointly with the UK Government and the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Government all along, and that’s why it forms the basis of our proposals.

Now, I’ve seen Andrew R.T. Davies saying on social media that the Welsh Government is trying to be different for the sake of it by going ahead with glass recycling when England have decided late in the day not to do so, and the reverse is true. The outlier here is the Government in England, which has decided, in the face of industry pressure—. And I recognise the quotes he makes, because those are quotes directly from the big business lobby groups; he’s parroting these lines that are not consistent with the Conservative manifesto, not consistent with Janet Finch-Saunders and other Conservative support and not consistent with the consultation we jointly did in good faith with the UK Government. Eighty-six per cent of people when we consulted, and we consulted twice, supported the inclusion of glass. It makes the scheme more efficient; it makes it simpler; it brings significant savings; it’ll reduce litter and it will cut carbon emissions. It’ll also bring benefits of more than £126 million if it’s all done together.

By singling out glass, it makes it a disadvantage for plastic and aluminum producers—I’m not sure if he’s had any representations from their lobby groups. But he is deciding for some reason to single out one sector versus the others. And also, in terms of the impact on litter, because the evidence shows that we’ll see a reduction of between 60 and 80 per cent in drinks litter with the inclusion of glass in the deposit scheme. So, I don’t think the position he’s making is consistent with Conservative manifestos; it’s not consistent with the decisions of this Senedd; it’s not consistent with the public consultation, nor is it consistent with his so-called support for bringing down emissions. Because to bring down emissions, as we said to the Youth Parliament earlier—and he was keen to listen to what they had to say—. They’re telling us very clearly: we’ve got to hit net zero by 2050. It’s no good approving that in principle, if, every time we bring forward a practical step to do that, he opposes it.

Delyth Jewell MS: The points that you made, Deputy Minister, are very powerful. Instead of just looking at what's happening with the Government in England, I wanted to ask you what you've learned from the experiences in other regions or countries that have succeeded in implementing a deposit-return scheme that includes glass—what lessons and insights have emerged? Because by studying successful cases, you as a Government, and we as a country, can benefit from valuable information that can be used to see how this could work, as you've said, so that we can tackle the crisis that faces us all. And I think that the public wants us to do something that is visible and that is going to be effective and efficient. So, I would like to know what you've learned from other countries that have done this, or hope to do this with schemes.

Lee Waters MS: Thank you, and the Member makes a strong point. It is typical in schemes around the world to include glass, and that shows to be a much more effective way of doing it. By taking a comprehensive approach, it's much clearer for the consumer, it's easier for the industry to know where it stands and it reduces greater emissions. We don't want to get to the position where we constantly recycle things rather than reuse them, because every time we crush it, and reheat it, there's considerable embodied carbon in that process. So, by being able to reuse things through washing them, that's a far more sustainable way of operating.

And in terms of the international evidence, the other effects of it are also fascinating. So, a paper by Keep Wales Tidy on drink-container littering referenced a study by Cardiff University researching the comparison of bottle and glass attacks between Helsinki and Cardiff, and Helsinki has a population twice the size of Cardiff. And in 2003, that study noted that there were 133 bottle-related assaults in Cardiff, but just one in Helsinki, which has glass in its deposit-return scheme. So, there are multiple benefits from including glass in the scheme, going way beyond the original intent. I'm afraid that's been lost in the debate. And, as I say, it's really disappointing the way the UK Government have treated the Scottish Government in this, trying to wreck a scheme. They've spent a considerable amount of money, which is now too late to pull back from, on the assumption that we were all working together on a common goal, as continuously agreed. And for them to pull the plug at the last minute is deeply disrespectful, and undermines the devolution settlement. And this is the sort of thing that fuels local grievance about the union. So, they need to think very carefully about continuing to behave like this.