Asked by
To ask His Majesty’s Government how they intend to ensure
continued production of frigates after the Type 31 class has been
delivered.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence () (Con)
My Lords, the refreshed National Shipbuilding Strategy is a
mechanism for providing clarity to industry on future
shipbuilding requirements for the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy
works closely with the National Shipbuilding Office and Defence
Equipment and Support to ensure that the Government’s
relationship with industry is optimised to deliver ship- building
requirements.
(Lab)
My Lords, the reassuring and mellifluous voice of the Minister
makes things seem cosier than they are. We were promised for some
three years that we would not drop below 19 escorts. We are now
at 17. We were promised that there would be a growth in the
number of escorts from the late 2020s, but that is not the case
with current orders. Just to give an idea of numbers, we have 17
of these things. We lost more than 16 in May 1916. We lost more
than 17 in May 1941. In May 1982 in the Falklands, 12 were lost
or damaged—so 17 is not very many.
We import 95% of our goods by sea. Our seabed is at a greater
risk than ever before and there is a war in Europe. Can the
Minister confirm that shipbuilders and SMEs need a guarantee of a
drumbeat of orders? That certainty allows the cost of the ships
to be driven down, and it allows growth in skilled manpower. At
the moment, there is a lacuna in orders. When will the drumbeat
be committed to with orders, so that we can increase these
numbers, and when will the number of escorts start to rise above
the pathetic figure of 17?
(Con)
I am not entirely sure of the noble Lord’s analysis and historic
comparator: we are operating in a different age, with a different
character of threat. The current shipbuilding programme in fact
has a very loud and resonant drumbeat: the commitment to a Type
32 frigate, the bulking up with new weapons systems of the Type
23 and Type 45, and the flexibility offered by the Type 31
design, which gives options for the future, promise a very
exciting period of development for our Royal Navy. If we look at
that in conjunction with the carrier strike group, the two Queen
Elizabeth class carriers and our nine submarines, we have a very
robust maritime capability.
(LD)
My Lords, given that the Type 26 is being built on the Clyde and
the Type 31 at Rosyth, is it within the Minister’s understanding
that the United Kingdom has never placed an order for a warship
with a foreign country, and that, if Scotland were to become
independent, that would not ensure the continuance of this most
remarkable trade, the success that it offers and the reputation
that it enhances?
(Con)
The noble Lord makes a very important point. For example, in
Scotland, with BAE Systems developing the Type 26 in the Clyde,
Babcock developing the Type 31 from the Forth, and companies such
as Thales and other industry partners doing a lot of support
work, it is a very important area of economic generation for
Scotland, providing jobs and skills. Historically, warships of
this sensitive nature would not normally be placed with a
supplier abroad.
(Con)
My Lords, if we have 17 destroyers and frigates available for
service with the Royal Navy, are they all serviceable and do we
have sufficient crews for all of them?
(Con)
The surface fleet availability comprises a total of 53 vessels.
Of these, 37 are available and 16 are unavailable. Of those 16, a
considerable number are in deep maintenance and will be coming
out and available for operations—and, as I said earlier, we have
our nine submarines. The Royal Navy is absolutely clear: we are
able to discharge our operational obligations with the fleet that
we have.
(Lab)
My Lords, does commitment to shipbuilding include the steel
industry? Unless the Government give subsidy to that industry, it
is likely to be destroyed. Will they commit themselves to give
the same sorts of support that the Germans are giving to their
steel industry?
(Con)
Defence is not a major consumer of steel: indeed, for the
financial year 2020-21, it consumed a little over 4,808 tonnes,
and the forecast up to 2030 is for an average of 8,640 tonnes per
annum. To put these numbers in perspective, in 2021, the UK
produced slightly less than 7.4 million tonnes of steel, so the
total forecast MoD requirement per annum is no more than about
0.12% of current UK production.
(Con)
My Lords, when my noble friend responded to the noble Lord, Lord
West, she said that we lived in a “different age” with a
“different character of threat”. Was she seeking to imply that
the threats that we now face are less than those that we faced
20, 30 or 40 years ago?
(Con)
No, not at all: the threats remain as important and potentially
lethal as they have ever been. But they come in multiple forms,
some of which are different from the ones the noble Lord, Lord
West, was describing from 1942. We require an agile, resilient
maritime capability. We have that, we are developing and building
on it, it is exciting, and it will ensure that we have a very
capable maritime capability for the future.
(Lab Co-op)
My Lords, further to the question from my noble friend , is it true
that SNP Ministers did not accept an invitation to attend a
recent steel cutting for frigates on the Clyde? Could that be
because of embarrassment that they cannot build their own fishing
vessels—I mean ferries; I knew it began with F —on the Clyde?
(Con)
I can understand the noble Lord’s diffidence in trying to
describe what the SNP is building at the Ferguson shipyard.
Having said that, I pay tribute to the skills of the workforce
there and to the management, which is doing an extraordinary job.
It is a rather sorry advertisement for the efficient delivery of
ships, and I hope for the sake of the yard that these ships
ultimately get launched in the near future. As to whether an SNP
Minister attended the steel cutting, I do not know and am unable
to comment.
(CB)
Can I return the noble Baroness to the question of the policy
context for the future purchase of these ships? Is she suggesting
that we are potentially returning to an age of decisive maritime
engagement, where the exquisite capabilities of these ships might
be decisive, or is the age one of a more competitive world in
which points of maritime presence and the utility and flexibility
of these ships are of greater importance?
(Con)
The noble and gallant Lord makes a very important distinction. It
is the case that we have identified the need for our Royal Navy
to be resilient and flexible and, as I indicated earlier, the
Type 31 design is just that. I know that a number of noble Lords
in this Chamber have asked this and I pay tribute to the noble
Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, who has pursued this point with
me: why does the MoD not look for a more easily procured piece of
equipment, rather than trying to build the exquisite every time?
I can say that there is evidence that the MoD is departing from
that. The Type 31 is one such example. It could arguably be
described an almost off-the-shelf vessel. The new MROS vessel has
been bought off the shelf and will be ready for operation very
soon. I think there is evidence, as the noble and gallant Lord
identifies, that we need to have resilience and flexibility and
be astute in working out how to provide that.
(Lab)
My Lords, to what extent does the Minister accept the concept of
a “drumbeat of orders”? Ships that are built are inevitably late
and I put to her that the reason is that they are not planned far
enough ahead. Just how far ahead is the Ministry of Defence
planning ship procurement and to what extent, if not placing
orders, is the MoD sharing this with manufacturers?
(Con)
I would like to nail the myth that there are delays. The Type 31
is on schedule and has proved a very satisfactory model of
contract—five of them are to be off contract by 2028. The
procurement of future vessels, as the noble Lord will be aware,
has to go through a preconcept phase, a concept phase, a design
phase and then the procurement process. The Type 32, for example,
has gone into its preconcept phase and will be making progress on
that. I think it is important to remember that there are accepted
procedural stages we have to go through. The Type 32 is an
exciting prospect and there will be more reported about that by
the MoD in due course.
