Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con) I beg to move, That
this House has considered apprenticeships and teacher training. I
am looking forward to this very important debate about
apprenticeships, specifically the role that I hope apprenticeships
will play in our education sector in future. Expanding
apprenticeships in a way that delivers for all our communities is
going to be really important. Apprenticeships are a vital but
criminally underutilised part...Request free trial
(North West Durham)
(Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered apprenticeships and teacher
training.
I am looking forward to this very important debate about
apprenticeships, specifically the role that I hope
apprenticeships will play in our education sector in future.
Expanding apprenticeships in a way that delivers for all our
communities is going to be really important.
Apprenticeships are a vital but criminally underutilised part of
our education mix. They drive productivity and growth in our
economy, as well as allowing young people to earn while they
learn. They have the ability to attract the widest cross-section
of society, and they benefit disadvantaged young people more than
any other group, making them a fundamental building block of
levelling up and social mobility.
Today, I will talk about why apprenticeships are so important and
how an increase in their number would benefit those outside
London the most. Most critically, I will talk about why creating
an undergraduate apprenticeship route into teaching is so
important not only to the sector but to the enthusiastic young
people it would attract and the wider economy.
Apprenticeships are a great part of individual development and
are a unique route to gaining valuable skills. They cultivate
knowledge, develop skills, allow young people to use their
initiative to manage projects and develop good communicators who
can make strong decisions and become role models to others.
Importantly, apprentices can earn while they learn without
acquiring university debt or a graduate tax, and they still get a
degree qualification at the end of it. That means that
apprenticeships can attract the widest possible pool of
talent.
Better still, apprenticeships are great for employers. Hiring an
apprentice is a productive and effective way to grow talent and
develop a motivated, skilled and qualified workforce that can be
moulded to an employer’s bespoke needs from day one. Furthermore,
studies show that apprentices are far more loyal than university
graduates. Perhaps our Prime Minister would welcome a few more
coming through that route on to the Back Benches of the
Conservative party.
(Totnes) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech that I
wholeheartedly agree with. It is deeply disappointing not to see
a single Member of the Labour party, other than the shadow
Minister, or of the Lib Dems in the Chamber. My hon. Friend is
talking about the aspirational element of what apprenticeships
can offer. Does he agree that it is essential that we ensure that
local places of education are linked up with local businesses so
that we can offer, present and platform those opportunities?
Mr Holden
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Studies show that more
than half of young people looking to apply for higher education
are interested in apprenticeships but they often find it
difficult to access the relevant information. Some colleges and
sixth forms are not interested in helping people pursue that
option, and I will come to that later.
Apprenticeships are an effective means of achieving long-term
growth and improved productivity—two of the core elements of what
the Government are driving for. If we are truly to upskill our
workforce while levelling up by turbocharging productivity and
growth across the country, apprenticeships are absolutely key,
especially in the education sector.
My successful apprenticeships fair with Derwentside College last
year was attended by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and
Ongar ()—the predecessor of the
Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member
for Stoke-on-Trent North (). Prior to that, he
attended Parkside Academy in my constituency to talk to the young
people there about apprenticeships as an alternative route to
academic sixth form.
I recently held another apprenticeships and jobs fair at Crook in
North West Durham to help forge connections between young
constituents looking at post-school options and local employers.
Derwentside College in my constituency is one of the best
examples, and I urge the Minister to come and visit. It does
excellent sector-based work academies and apprenticeships that
are tied into local firms, like those that my hon. Friend the
Member for Totnes () was talking about.
After seeing that at first hand, it is clear to me that having
local apprenticeships working with local businesses is critical
to boosting local economic activity. I am running a “How to run
an apprenticeships fair” event for staffers in Parliament on 7
December, so if anyone wants to send their staff along, please do
so. In constituencies across the country, we do not want to see
young people constantly having to migrate in order to find
work.
I apologise for having two bites of the cherry, but just two
weeks ago I held my own careers fair at a local further education
college—South Devon College—in my constituency of Totnes and
south Devon. It was a fantastic example of how to join up local
apprenticeships and local businesses and explore the
opportunities in the area. Will my hon. Friend come down and see
what we are doing in the south-west—a sometimes overlooked
area—so that, across the whole country, we might join up this
idea of linking up apprenticeships, colleges and businesses?
(in the Chair)
Order. Obviously, the decision whether or not to take
interventions is for the hon. Member who is moving the motion. I
would point out, however, that there are five people hoping to
speak, and each intervention means that the time limit may be
reduced for those people.
Mr Holden
Thank you for your guidance, Sir George. I will just say that,
when I was in the Department for Education, I visited South Devon
College with the then Education Secretary’s special adviser, and
I can definitely recommend that my hon. Friend the Minister does
so too.
Far too often we hear stories of young people leaving our
communities, particularly in constituencies such as North West
Durham, to go away to university. They are out of the jobs market
for three years and sometimes end up right back where they
started, having accumulated student loans in the process. A
three-year residential course is not the right route for
everyone—actually, it probably is not the right route for the
majority of people—but at the moment, in too many cases, it is
the only option for those who want to be seen to get ahead. That
is specifically the case for the teaching profession, where there
is not currently an undergraduate apprenticeship, although there
is a postgraduate one. I want to see young people become
apprentices so they can earn a degree and valuable skills while
earning a stable income right away, rather than continuing on the
traditional university route first.
Despite the multifaceted benefits that apprenticeships can
clearly provide, we could do more to encourage apprenticeships,
particularly in constituencies such as mine, which have seen
apprenticeship starts fall in recent years. That really concerns
me. I want to see as many people as possible in North West
Durham, and across the country, in apprenticeships. The fall in
apprenticeship starts also demonstrates that the north has the
most to gain by increasing apprenticeships, particularly in areas
such as teaching, especially if people can do them through local
universities and schools so they do not have move away. If we
want to look at different ways to deliver on levelling up, then
increasing apprenticeships is critical.
Clearly, an undergraduate apprenticeship route into teaching is a
no-brainer. Currently, someone who wants to be a teacher must
have a degree and either do a postgraduate apprenticeship or a
postgraduate certificate in education. That may make sense for a
group of people for whom a few drinks is the right option for
their first year at university and who then finally settle down
to study, but many of my constituents need to be earning from day
one. For so many young people who go into certain FE
courses—particularly young women in my constituency—it feels as
if their choices are limited from that point, especially if they
are interested in education, as they cannot take the final steps
into the full teaching profession.
As I have said, the traditional route is not the right one to
ensure that as many people as possible can access the profession.
That means we are missing out on huge talent in vast swathes of
the population, some of whom might be some of the best teachers
from the earliest stage of their career. We need to unleash the
potential in this broader base of the population. That will also
help the sector with vacancies, particularly in certain subjects,
possibly including some technical subjects. I do not see any
reason why we could not have some of the important academic
subject bases as part of that mix; it is about design.
(Chesterfield) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman raises an innovative idea. Will he expand on
it a little? Previously, when we were looking at maths teachers,
people who had a maths degree would be seen as suitable to do the
maths part but would have to go away to do a PGCE in order to
learn the teaching part. How does he foresee that we would ensure
that people who had not done a degree were capable of providing
that technical knowledge?
Mr Holden
The hon. Gentleman rightly picks up an important point about
subject specialism, which I will come to a little later. We want
to ensure that the teaching profession is delivering the full
knowledge all the way down. I do not think that is necessary in
exactly the same way for pre-school or, perhaps, primary school
teachers; while they have to have subject knowledge, it does not
have to be to the depth of degree level. I think that knowledge
could be gained, perhaps, as part of a four-year teaching
apprenticeship. In a couple of years’ time, doctors will be able
to do degree-level apprenticeships —that provision has already
been made—so I do not see why we could not have the same
provision for teachers, particularly those teaching early years
and in primary schools.
I have visited so many schools in my constituency since I was
elected—about half my primary schools and all my secondary
schools—and I have noticed that a lot of them have an early years
setting alongside them. I make the point to the Minister that an
early years teaching apprenticeship could be a first look at
this, perhaps as a pilot scheme. So many people go in, perhaps
with a level 2 or level 3 qualification, but that is where their
opportunity ends. It is a particular issue when someone with
qualified teacher status can look after 13 four-year-olds,
whereas someone without qualified teacher status can only look
after eight. Some of those ratios are really difficult; they
restrict the ability to pay more, when childcare costs are
already so high, but they also put extra costs on families.
Providing an early years apprenticeship route could be part of
the answer to the issues around childcare, which everyone knows
is a major issue in the country at the moment, particularly with
respect to cost.
The broader point is that having a degree apprenticeship would
bring teaching into line with other professions. With
accountancy, someone can get an Association of Accounting
Technicians qualification and then go on to the full accountancy
course. It is the same with architecture and engineering. Someone
can go into the legal profession right at the bottom end and work
their way through to becoming a fully qualified solicitor. No one
is suggesting that those other sectors have a prestige issue.
People can do apprenticeships all the way through those
professions, but they cannot do one in teaching. That is a
particular issue.
(Darlington) (Con)
I can provide an example from personal experience in respect of
the solicitor apprenticeship route. In my previous business, I
recruited a young lady at the age of 18 who did not want to go to
university. I am delighted to report that she is about to qualify
as a solicitor, having gone through all the necessary steps.
Mr Holden
My hon. Friend provides a superb example of exactly what I am
talking about. In the teaching profession and the education
sector there are already a lot of people who have done level 3
qualifications, or even level 4 or 5 qualifications, in all sorts
of teaching assistant and some advanced teaching assistant roles.
That is a natural progression. It can be done in nursing as well,
with healthcare assistants moving through into nursing. There are
so many ways that this is done in other professions. We are
almost holding teaching back from so many people with many
different talents who just did not want to choose a particular
route at age 18; we are stopping them being able to progress
their careers.
For so many young people, an apprenticeship is a particularly
good option if they need to earn while they learn. So many people
in our communities, in constituencies such as mine, do not have
the option of going away. Even if they would get all the support
of student loans and grants, they want to be earning from day
one. They may have commitments to their family that they want to
maintain. The apprenticeship model might mean that they do not
have to remove themselves from the job market in later life to go
and do training or professional qualifications, because they can
earn and learn on the job.
Having spoken to so many people across the sector about my plan,
I have heard some reservations. The first is that apprenticeships
would somehow dilute the teaching profession. The issue of
prestige perniciously permeates apprenticeships across the board,
but with companies such as Goldman Sachs now taking on
apprentices and people able to do an apprenticeship to become a
doctor, that is being eroded. That reservation is particularly
frustrating because it is demonstrably untrue.
While a three-year residential degree and one year of training
provide an in-depth understanding of academic study, surely four
years of working in a teaching apprenticeship in a school
environment, while doing those academic studies on the side,
would help teachers get a greater understanding of teaching. That
is particularly true for early years and primary, which I have
already touched on.
What is more, the apprenticeship model already exists in the
public sector. In 2017, undergraduate degree apprenticeships
became the main route into nursing and, as I have said, the
Department of Health and Social Care has approved an
apprenticeship, to be rolled out next year, as a route to
becoming a doctor. That addresses the grievances of those
concerned about the lack of prestige or academic credentials. I
understand those concerns. We want to ensure that people with
really good subject knowledge are going into our professions. I
just think that we can do that with a proper,
well-thought-through degree apprenticeship route too.
While it is difficult to object to the idea of apprenticeships in
principle, some have expressed concern about funding. However,
this is where I am probably most optimistic about the viability
of my proposal. Since 2017, the Treasury has allocated an annual
apprenticeship budget to the Department for Education, which is
used to fund apprenticeships at small employers and incentive
payments, among other things. If it is not used by the end of the
financial year, it is returned to the Treasury. I have spoken to
Ministers and officials in the Department, and it is estimated
that around £200 million in unused levy funds has been returned,
although a specific freedom of information request recently
suggested that the figure could be as high as £2 billion over a
five-year period. There are hundreds of millions of pounds, at
least, in the Department for Education’s budget to do this.
Without having even to look far, we have a silver bullet to fund
an undergraduate teaching apprenticeship pathway and unleash the
potential of enthusiastic apprentices who could shape the future
of the children of today and tomorrow.
One big issue with apprenticeships in general—I think this is one
of the most important points—is that they are often not
considered a prestigious option post-school. Schools often
strongly encourage students to go down a traditional three-year
residential university route, even though it might not be the
best fit for them. That is natural—that is where all the teachers
came from. Einstein’s definition of madness is doing the same
thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. This
is groundhog day in our education system. We put people who have
degrees into schools and then, naturally, teachers say that is
the route into teaching that people should go down. We need to
stop doing this; it is a disservice to the people we are trying
to represent and to apprenticeships more broadly.
If our children’s role models were themselves living examples of
successful apprentices, that could surely change how
apprenticeships are perceived, particularly in the education
sector. Therefore, teaching apprenticeships could unlock a new
generation of apprentices, not only in the teaching profession
but more broadly in all sectors of society. That would address
the broader issue with apprenticeships that results in them being
seriously under-utilised and thus create far-reaching benefits
beyond the teaching profession itself.
I believe that creating an undergraduate teaching apprenticeship
degree route would have extensive and multifaceted benefits. It
is an astonishingly simple solution to many issues in the sector,
from getting people into apprenticeships who should be in them to
helping out in the early years and with the financial pressures
on families and, obviously, on the Government. It would boost
productivity, it would provide a pathway into a well-paying job
with a good pension for so many young people who have not
historically gone down the teaching route, and it would really
help to address some of the vacancies in our already
overstretched teaching sector. Furthermore, it would create a
route into teaching for enthusiastic young people who currently
have no path to progression. Primarily, a teaching apprenticeship
would benefit the most disadvantaged, who feel that they cannot
afford to take a degree or that, for varying reasons in their
lives, teaching has not been an option for them. Most
importantly, there is already a considerable tranche of funding
available to make this happen.
Finally, as I have already said, having apprentices as
ambassadors in schools would provide a huge boost to the entire
sector, reaching well beyond the profession itself. I want to see
apprenticeship starts increase wherever possible. I know the
uniquely valuable role that teachers play in children’s
lives—both my parents were teachers—and I see this route into
teaching as essential to helping us address some of the gaps that
we see in our country at the moment.
Several hon. Members rose—
(in the Chair)
In order to try to get in everyone who has indicated that they
want to speak in the debate, I will impose a time limit of five
minutes on speeches. I will call the first of the two Front
Benchers at 5.27 pm.
5.03pm
(Strangford) (DUP)
Thank you, Sir George, for calling me to speak. I congratulate
the hon. Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden) on setting the
scene.
May I say what a pleasure it is to see the Minister in his place?
We have become great friends over the last few years. I know he
is a good man who will do a good job. If he were not a Minister,
he would be on the Back Benches supporting us in this debate. He
is very much poacher turned gamekeeper, so we are pleased to see
him in his place and we look forward to his contribution.
There are certain professions that are not jobs but callings or
vocations, and teaching is one of them. Although I adore my
grandchildren and enjoy giving talks to classes interested in
politics, I can think of nothing more challenging than teaching
nine classes of 30 different children five times a week. To
progress those children, to understand how best they learn, to be
able to teach the brightest while bringing along those who
struggle—it is all beyond me. I really applaud the teachers who
are involved in that—well done.
In these debates, I always try to give a Northern Ireland
perspective. I do it to add to the debate, ever mindful that the
Minister does not have any responsibility for education in
Northern Ireland, because education is a devolved matter. It is
getting much harder to be a teacher in Northern Ireland, as the
needs of our children have changed. Statistics released by the
Northern Ireland Education Authority in January outline those
changes, with a 26.4% increase in the number of pupils accessing
a placement in a special school since 2015-16, and a 24.1% rise
in the number accessing a placement in special provision in
mainstream schools. Other statistics show that 20,505 pupils have
a statement of need where there were once only 16,500, an
increase of 23.7%.
That is not the subject of the debate, of course, but I say those
things to give a perspective on how education has changed since I
was young. Any teacher training now does so in the knowledge that
they will have to teach the subject they choose to pupils with a
range of skill levels and learning processes in one classroom. An
essential component of making that work are the classroom
assistants who aid those children who need to learn differently.
There is a lot of pressure on the teacher to know how best to
utilise that help in the classroom. The classes are large and the
teaching aids and funding are low. Schools are feeling the pinch.
It is quite a grim picture. I have served on the board of
governors of Glastry College for nearly 36 years, and in that
time I have seen how the needs and demands of the pupils, parents
and teachers have changed.
In England, the pupil to teacher ratio has increased from 17.6 in
November 2010 to 18.5 in 2021, and the teacher vacancy rate has
risen over that period. I believe those things are linked, with
greater pressure on time spent outside the classroom for teachers
and, increasingly, for classroom assistants. That must change
through increased funding, which would reduce class numbers and
increase classroom assistants’ hours in class and time for
preparation. I know the Minister is keen do that, and I believe
he will. Every penny spent on education is a penny invested in
our children and, subsequently, in ourselves and the future of
this great nation.
It is time that we again focused on the outcomes for us all,
which would be better if a teacher were not singlehandedly trying
to teach 30 children with three different teaching needs and a
number with behavioural needs. A rising tide lifts all ships.
Minister, we must ensure that we can entice people who love
education and children into teaching, by showing the support and
help that will be granted to them, not simply in private schools,
if they can get a job there, but in every mainstream school in
this nation. The job is clear; the question is whether the
Government will put their shoulder to the plough and deliver.
Knowing the Minister as I do, as a friend—I welcome him and wish
him well in his new role—I believe that he will be the first to
do just that.
5.08pm
(Mansfield) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the second
time today, Sir George. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for
North West Durham (Mr Holden) for bringing forward this important
debate. I will focus today on education, but I also totally agree
with what he said about the apprenticeship levy and the
opportunity, by making that more flexible, to open up a range of
employment and training opportunities that do not currently
exist. We should definitely have done that a long time ago, to be
honest.
There are two things I wanted to raise today. The first is
helping people to access teaching as a career, regardless of
background. Insistence on degree qualifications makes for a less
diverse workforce, although not less diverse in terms of physical
characteristics—which the Minister knows I have all sorts of
issues with, which I will come to in a minute—but less diverse in
terms of background, views and experience.
Other areas of education, such as independent schools and
colleges, are free to bring in a broader range of teachers and
lecturers with different backgrounds. We regularly see colleges
bringing in people from industry, for example, into teaching
settings. That is sometimes to support more vocational or
technical qualifications, or to support and advise on business or
getting into private sector roles or entrepreneurship. I often
hear businesses say that schools struggle to teach effectively
about being in business, about entrepreneurship, and about being
work ready and the expectations of private sector employment. In
reality, that is less about qualifications and more about
engagement, character and extracurricular interests.
Many groups and charities are working to get more business
experience into schools, which is good. Even better, we could get
that experience into teaching. To have a wider variety of routes
and ways to get into teaching, without having to take years out
to take a degree, would be incredibly beneficial. Giving schools
more flexibility to employ a wider range of people would also be
beneficial. It would help us to give our young people a wider
range of options, as my hon. Friend the Member for North West
Durham said, and a wider and better range of careers advice.
Often, the most effective role models for young people are those
from their community. A young person who grew up on an estate who
has done well, and who is capable and engaging and understands
the local context and issues, is perhaps better placed than a
graduate from another, very different area to mentor young
people—to be a role model. Often, people get to grips with
learning and qualifications later in life, having struggled at
school. That is particularly true in very disadvantaged
communities, where levels of post-16 qualifications can be very
low. People being able to access teaching through apprenticeships
and shorter courses, to transition from other sectors such as
business, to work as a teaching assistant while they learn and
qualify on the job, and opportunities such as those would help
those people to get on, to give back to their community and to
teach where they grew up, instead of going to do something else
elsewhere. I extend that to other professions, as well—the
police, for example. I would make the same case in that sector,
but I do not have time to go into that today.
In other areas of education, having new ways into teaching could
be hugely beneficial and create new opportunities. Just last
week, I visited Crocodile Rock Day Care, an early years setting
in Mansfield, where we spoke about a variety of things, including
the challenge of recruiting and retaining staff. We spoke about
the challenge of offering appropriate training and development
with very tight budgets, and how many staff in the sector end up
moving into retail or going to work at Amazon because it is
better money. If those young people entering early years
education could progress into primary teaching, for example, by
learning on the job—by transferring their training and
qualifications in early years to schools through
apprenticeship-type options—we could open up a whole world of new
opportunities, and also improve recruitment and retention in the
sector.
If people could progress from an entry-level role in early years
education to become more experienced and qualified, work in a
nursery or reception setting at a school, gain experience with
older children, learn as a teaching assistant and become a newly
qualified teacher, and do all of that on the job, it would mean
people would not have to take career breaks to requalify. It
would also remove financial barriers and enable people to
progress in settings within their own community—the community
that they most care about—and then perhaps teach in their own
area, not leave and go somewhere else. That is a real challenge
for schools, particularly those in disadvantaged communities, so
I hope the Minister will take those points away. I fully support
what my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham has
said.
In the short time I have left, the second thing I want to raise
with the Minister is the importance of male role models in
teaching, which relates to this teacher training issue. I do not
need to go into my issues with the Equality Act 2010 and the
perverse outcomes it has led to: there are countless examples of
trying to support women into university or into science,
technology, engineering and mathematics, for example, but next to
no examples of trying to support young men into teaching, even
though the profession is 75% female, and even more so in primary
education.
In the east midlands, 30% of schools do not have a single male
teacher. That is really upsetting when we consider that in some
of the most disadvantaged communities, that male teacher might be
the only decent role model that a young man has. It is difficult
and confusing to learn how to be a man in modern society when
there is no male role model, or when the male role model at home
is involved in domestic violence, for example, or unhealthy
relationships. Where do young men learn those things from? I ask
my hon. Friend the Minister to also take that point away, and
look at how we might encourage more male role models for the
children in those disadvantaged communities who most need them.
Most importantly, as my hon. Friend the Member for North West
Durham has said, we need to open up access to teaching to a much
broader range of people, to make that easier for all our
communities.
5.13pm
(Meon Valley) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I
congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr
Holden) on securing the debate.
We all know good and bad teachers: they shape our lives, and
therefore can be considered the most important influence after
parents and carers. Our economy depends on skills and
apprenticeships, and I welcome ways into career paths that open
them to people from a range of backgrounds. However, I have huge
concerns about the number of ways of getting into teaching, and
whether they all guarantee the preparedness of teachers.
Depending on what equivalence we attach to similarly operating
pathways, there are around 10 ways of getting qualified teacher
status. It is now proposed to introduce a level 5 associate
teacher apprenticeship aimed at teaching assistants, both as a
route into teaching and a continuing professional development
activity. We should remember that most TA roles are based on a
level 3 qualification, or level 4 in some cases.
If, as I have said, teaching is the most important influence, we
should be making sure that teachers are well trained and
motivated. Teaching is a vocation, but that does not mean that
everyone is good at it. There needs to be rigorous training over
years to enable good teaching, which includes child pedagogy. It
requires a mixture of sciences, such as child development, as
well as subject teaching. Finland, which comes top of most
education surveys, has primary school teacher training for four
years and secondary school teaching programmes for five years.
Candidates then have to do a year of pedagogical training;
alongside that, they do a research thesis on a topic of their
choice and spend a full year teaching in a university-affiliated
school before graduation.
This gives status to teachers, and confidence that teachers are
well prepared. Compare that with the lack of that foundation in
some routes in England, which particularly concerns me, because
we cannot rely on stretched schools and their teachers to provide
additional support to newly qualified teachers who are expected
to learn from others on the job. Additionally, we cannot put
children and young people in a position where they may have an
unqualified or struggling teacher for a whole year. The new
apprenticeships specification builds in so much overlap with the
qualified teacher status that it is inevitable that the
distinction will be lost or overlooked.
We lose far too many of these valuable recruits early in their
careers because they feel unprepared in the classroom. The
average rate for teachers leaving the profession is around 10%
per year. However, among early career teachers the rates are a
lot worse; some 12.5% have already left within a year of
qualifying. Some 17%—
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mrs Drummond
I will not, because we do not get extra time.
We get a minute back at the end.
Mrs Drummond
No, we do not get a minute back in here, I am afraid.
Some 17% will have left within two years. After five years a
third have left, and 40% of teachers who qualified 10 years ago
have left teaching. Besides being a failure of current policy,
this also undermines our ability to develop a cadre of
experienced teachers who can help the next generation.
I am a huge fan of apprenticeships, vocational education and
learning while working, but the stakes are so high in education
that we must be cautious. Classroom-based professional
development can help qualified teachers learn themselves and stay
in teaching, but it is not a substitute for giving teachers a
solid foundation at the start. We certainly should not be
circumventing routes to it, which I am concerned the kinds of
apprenticeships now being proposed will do.
5.16pm
(Darlington) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I
begin by congratulating my County Durham colleague, my hon.
Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden), on securing
today’s important debate.
Over 30,000 individuals enter initial teacher training in England
each year through several routes. However, it is regrettable that
in general, over the past decade or so, the overall number of
qualified teachers in state-funded schools has not kept pace with
increasing pupil numbers, with recruitment and retention of
teachers still being a significant issue. This is of particular
concern in the north east, where we have seen the sharpest
reduction in the number of teacher training places in the
country, with nearly a third of our places at risk. With 92% of
teachers in the north-east coming from the north-east, we know
that this will result in reduced teacher supply, and
significantly impact the ability of schools in the north-east to
continue to improve and develop. Given that we know schools in
disadvantaged areas have the greatest problems in recruiting
staff, the impact on disadvantaged children will be even more
significant than on the system as a whole, compounding the
problem.
With this in mind, I have been made aware of a number of concerns
about the recent re-accreditation process for providers of
initial teacher training. I will take this opportunity to
highlight the issues Carmel College in Darlington is currently
experiencing. Carmel College’s teacher training programme has
been running for 20 years, delivering over 100 new teachers each
year. I am deeply concerned that this outstanding school in my
constituency now faces the removal of its teacher training
accreditation from 2024. It is essential that outstanding schools
such as Carmel College are able to continue their teacher
training programmes, so that we can ensure that children in the
north-east are not let down because of a lack of teachers to fill
vacancies. I greatly appreciate the engagement that I have
already had on this issue from the Minister for School Standards,
my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (), and I wish Carmel
College good luck in its appeal.
More generally, I am committed to helping the people of
Darlington to secure employment and training opportunities.
Further to this aim, and like my hon. Friend the Member for North
West Durham, who led the debate, I recently hosted my second
apprenticeship and training fair at Darlington College. I was
delighted to have almost 50 organisations represented, which were
collectively recruiting for well over 700 opportunities in and
around Darlington, alongside helpful tips and advice for job
seekers. Such events are hugely important for ensuring that our
constituents are fully aware of the job opportunities and
training available to them to enable them to reach their full
potential. The apprenticeship levy allowance has been a great
tool for encouraging employers to commit to apprenticeships,
allowing them to fund apprenticeship training or else lose the
funds.
While apprenticeships are a great way for schools to improve the
skills of their non-teaching employees, the funds are not
currently available for schools to fund teacher training costs,
which seems a missed opportunity. I encourage the Minister to
look at the feasibility of that measure. We must ensure that we
can tackle shortages in teachers if we are to enable children up
and down the country to fulfil their potential.
I want to see us encouraging more businesses to establish
apprenticeships and opening up more opportunities for people
seeking employment and training. I know that the Minister and
this Conservative Government share those views, and I know the
Minister will have listened closely to all the contributions
today. I look forward to hearing his response to this excellent
and timely debate.
5.20pm
(Chesterfield) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
George. I congratulate the hon. Member for North West Durham (Mr
Holden) on securing a debate on this important matter.
Apprenticeships are dear to many of our hearts. The pressure on
teacher numbers is also an issue we are all very conscious of. I
welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman was able to secure this
debate. It is a shame that the “back frack or sack” debate in the
Chamber has overwhelmed many of us. As a result, there were
rather more Labour Members there, and maybe some Conservative
Members were hiding away in here. I cannot imagine that there is
anyone here who does not want to let everyone know what they
think about fracking, but we never know—it is possible.
The hon. Member for North West Durham raised some important
points. I want to dwell on the importance of apprenticeships for
learners from deprived communities. He is absolutely right that
level 2 and 3 apprenticeships are incredibly important. There are
real issues in the expansion of level 6 and 7 apprenticeships;
there has been a huge middle-class grab of those. I welcome
degree apprenticeships, but we need to be careful that we do not
end up with a twin-tier system where level 2 apprenticeships are
for working-class kids and level 6 and 7 apprenticeships are what
someone does if their parents are ambitious. None the less, his
central point about the value of apprenticeships is an important
one.
The hon. Gentleman touched on the fact that apprenticeship
numbers are falling. At our recent conference, the Labour party
outlined new proposals on flexibility around apprenticeships. The
apprenticeship levy is not working in its current format, and we
want to see apprenticeship numbers driven up. He was right to say
that.
I take this opportunity to welcome to his post the
Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for
Stoke-on-Trent North (). I hope that he lasts
rather longer than the Home Secretary, the right hon. and learned
Member for Fareham (), appears to have. I know
he has great passion in this area, and we look forward to hearing
his thoughts going forward.
The hon. Members for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond) and for
Strangford () spoke of their commitment to apprenticeships. I know
that commitment is found across the House.
The hon. Member for Mansfield () is a great example of someone
who covets another job when in one; throughout the years I have
known him, he seems to have been almost constantly campaigning
for the next job. I know he would like to be my Mayor in
Nottinghamshire in the future, and will no doubt have been hugely
excited about Labour’s announcement of devolution of skills
funding to Mayors at our recent conference. Whether he gets that
opportunity, time will tell, but I know he has a genuine
commitment to this area of policy, and it was good to hear his
contribution.
The hon. Member for Darlington () made a point about the
retention of teachers, mentioning that the sharpest reduction in
teacher training is in the north-east, and that there are often
particular pressures on teacher recruitment in town communities
and areas that are further away from universities. That is an
issue of real importance. The hon. Member for North West Durham
talked about the value of apprenticeships; I completely agree
with what he said. Apprenticeships are a hugely important
opportunity for people to work while they learn. Ensuring that
both employers and learners get access to those opportunities
will be a key priority for the Labour Government. A lot more can
be done to ensure that all students coming out of school are
aware of apprenticeship opportunities, which is a real passion of
mine.
There is a particular missed opportunity for public sector
apprenticeships. I asked a number of parliamentary questions to
the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Colchester
(), about the amount of levy left
unspent in the public sector. I was shocked to discover that the
Government did not have those figures to hand. I had to try to
establish them on an organisation-by-organisation basis. It
should be a matter of strategic interest to the Government.
Our health sector trusts, which pay huge amounts of levy, also
have a huge staffing crisis. How much do they have unspent every
year in their apprenticeship levy pot? In that context, the hon.
Member for North West Durham made an important and innovative
suggestion for teacher training. We need to think a huge amount
more about how to do it, but he has raised a topic of real
importance. It is vital that we attract more people into the
teaching profession, and such innovative solutions are definitely
to be explored.
Over the past decade, the number of qualified teachers in state
schools has fallen behind increasing pupil numbers. At one time,
it was guaranteed that there would be no more than 30 pupils in a
class, but that is now commonplace in schools that I visit. The
rising teacher vacancy rate over that period has seen more and
more schools struggling to recruit. I have met schools in my
constituency that have advertised vacancies two or three times
and not had a single application. We need to stop for a moment
and consider why that is. Is it the workload, the burnout that
teachers experience, the highly pressurised environment, or the
extent to which schools have become extensions of social work
services? Rising poverty means that schools are expected to feed
as well as educate our children, which is a massive social
problem. It no doubt has huge consequences for teacher
retention.
We have a great generation of teachers, but never have the
Government expected so much while offering so little. Many
teachers in my constituency, knowing about this debate, wanted me
to express the sense that they are drowning in work and facing
unimaginable pressures, due to the crisis in children’s mental
health, the cost of living issues, and the number of families
struggling to feed themselves and afford the basics. Our teachers
are very much on the frontline of that economic crisis. It is
crucial that we recognise the vital role that teachers play in
our communities and do more to address the poverty behind many of
those issues. We need to recognise the shortage of teachers that
we have.
The last large-scale survey of teachers, administered by the OECD
in 2018, found that full-time secondary teachers in England
reported working on average almost 50 hours a week. Full-time
primary teachers reported working 52 hours a week—more than any
other participating country except Japan. In our country, the
amount of time that pupils spend in school is less than it is for
many of our competitors, but the amount of time our teachers
spend working is more. That is simply a recipe for failure.
Recent recruitment campaigns to the teaching profession have
tended to target those already in work, but many of the desired
recruits, as the hon. Member for North West Durham said, will
already have family commitments and all the other expenditure
that makes it difficult to get away from the world of work to
pursue full-time education. I absolutely agree with the principle
that non-possession of a degree should be a barrier only where
there is a specific reason why a degree is needed. I am someone
who never went to university, and yet, despite having been a
senior manager in business, I know from subsequently attempting
to get into the public sector that there were a number of jobs
there that I did not even have a chance to apply for, regardless
of my abilities, because I do not have a degree.
The Labour party views apprenticeships as the gold standard, so
we want to see further investigation of these important ideas,
but there is a number of considerations that will need to be made
to make the idea work. In conclusion, we are broadly supportive
of the suggestion of apprenticeships for teacher training and we
look forward to exploring these ideas in future.
5.31pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education ()
It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir
George, and to make my first appearance as the Minister for
School Standards. It could not have been sweeter that it was my
next-door neighbour in the parliamentary offices, my hon. Friend
the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden), who managed to get
me at the Dispatch Box in Westminster Hall for the first time. I
thank him and I thank his parents, who are obviously excellent
teachers, for producing such a wonderful son. Most importantly, I
thank all the teachers, teaching assistants and support staff who
time and again go above and beyond in their incredible dedication
to those amazing young people, who will be the future of our
country and drive that economic growth that we are so keen to
see.
This important debate has been secured by my hon. Friend, who is
not just a great champion of his local schools, having visited 22
out of 40 in his constituency to date, but the co-chair of the
all-party parliamentary group on apprenticeships. I was a member
of that group for a period of time before starting in this role.
I want to put on the record the fact that I am lucky, as the
representative of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, to
have my own apprentice in my parliamentary office. Jessica is on
the verge of completing her qualification, and I felt that I
could not preach about apprenticeships if I was not going to
support one myself.
The debate is an important one, and my hon. Friend will know that
there have been over 13,000 apprenticeship starts in his
constituency since the beginning of 2010. They have provided
fantastic opportunities for his constituents to enhance their
careers and, as he says, earn while they learn. The Government
are committed to providing world-class education and training for
everyone, whatever their age or stage of life. Since 2015, we
have transformed apprenticeships into a prestigious, sought-after
option designed to meet the needs of employers and learners
across the country, and we have seen over 2,600 starts on the
level 6 teacher apprenticeship since its inception in 2017.
Thanks to our transformational reforms, millions of people in a
wide range of sectors have benefited from these industry-led
routes to earn and learn. In the last academic year, there were
37,000 new trainee teachers—10% more than the last pre-pandemic
cycle in 2019-20. To support this, we recently announced a new
package of financial incentives worth over £180 million for the
2023-24 academic year. That support for teacher training will
include bursaries worth up to £27,000 and scholarships worth up
to £29,000, and these incentives will encourage talented
applicants to teach key subjects, such as chemistry, physics and
mathematics. We are also offering a £25,000 bursary for geography
and languages, a £20,000 bursary for biology and design
technology, and a £15,000 bursary for English, all of which will
be tax free.
I should declare an interest, having been a teacher myself and
having got my postgraduate certificate in education at the
Institute of Education only in 2011. Never in my wildest
dreams—or theirs, probably—would I have thought that I would be
standing here as the Minister for School Standards, and I am
absolutely honoured to be guiding that next generation of young
teachers on their journey, because they are so important.
I am very grateful for the time that my hon. Friend spent at the
Department, meeting me and officials on 22 September. I heard and
learned more about his idea and what could be done. I will set
out the work that the Department has undertaken to date to
consider that option. Between 2018 and 2020, a sector-led
trailblazer group considered the viability of an apprenticeship
with a pre-degree entry point leading to qualified teacher
status. In 2020, after detailed consideration and wider
stakeholder engagement with initial teacher training providers
and schools, including a survey among headteachers, the group
rejected the creation of an undergraduate teacher apprenticeship.
That was due to its prohibitive costs, the duration required and
insufficient demand from the sector.
The Department is always willing to listen to the sector, and as
the Minister for School Standards I am absolutely putting
teaching degree apprenticeships on the table. However, I need to
ensure that there are benefits and take account of the wider
views of schools, pupils and prospective teachers.
Mr Perkins
When the Minister says there was insufficient demand in the
sector, does he mean there was insufficient demand from people
wanting to study and pursue that route, or was there insufficient
demand from schools to take on apprentices?
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to
clarify. From my understanding, it was headteachers who reported
that there was not a massive desire—and nor did they believe that
there would be—within the sector. The cost was definitely the
main problem. A regular apprentice gets 20% of time off to
undertake further learning, but that figure is 40% when applied
to the school year, because there are 13 weeks when teachers are
not physically in the classroom with their pupils. The cost to a
school was felt to be too great to have someone off timetable for
40% of the time. However, allowing a teaching assistant to take a
teaching qualification through a level 5 apprenticeship, which we
are exploring, could be a way to deliver teachers through an
apprenticeship scheme. We would be using people who are already
in the school system—those 200,000-plus teaching assistants who
do a fantastic job up and down our country.
Where there is employer demand for new apprenticeships in
education, including a route to teaching for those without a
degree, we will work with employers and the Institute for
Apprenticeships and Technical Education to consider how those
proposals could be delivered. We are currently engaging in
detailed work with a new trailblazer group to explore the
viability of the new apprenticeship standard at level 5. That
apprenticeship would enhance training opportunities for existing
teaching assistants. It would also offer a route for
high-potential individuals without an undergraduate degree,
providing them with a career pathway to gain a qualification to
train to teach.
I look forward to continuing discussions with school leaders, the
Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education and my hon.
Friend the Member for North West Durham on how best to support
talented non-graduates to gain the necessary qualifications to
train to teach.
I want to ensure that I address the points raised by hon.
Members, because that is important. I thank my good friend, the
hon. Member for Strangford (), for his kind words and his continued passion for
state education, a sector that I am proud to have worked in for
eight and a half years. To declare an interest, my partner is a
member of that sector as well. It is a fantastic career. I hope
that anyone watching today who is not yet a teacher will be able
to understand what a great profession it is. Not only is the new
starting salary for this academic year over £28,000, but I have
supported the pledge in the 2019 Conservative manifesto to ensure
that a £30,000 a year starting salary is enacted for the next
academic year.
On top of that, there are bursaries. The levelling-up premium is
available in education investment areas. That can give someone up
to £3,000 tax free, on top of their salary, depending on the
subject they teach. We should really promote that. I believe that
take-up is really good so far, but we are checking those numbers.
I want every Member in those education investment areas to drive
those reforms by getting people to sign up as quickly as they
can.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield () is a fine champion for his
local area, and I am glad to have been able to spend time with
him to learn about the work he has been doing for education. We
have no plans in place yet to look at what we are doing
specifically for men. However, my team in the Department are
looking at diversity, which is not just about ethnicity; it is
about gender as well. It is about men getting into the
profession, particularly in primary schools, as well as women
getting into leadership roles in the sector. It is also about
socioeconomic backgrounds and those white, working class,
disadvantaged boys who we want to see representing the profession
in schools, as well as people from other ethnic minority groups
who, tragically, are falling out of the profession at a quicker
rate than their white counterparts. We are going to do a big
piece of work in that area. I look forward to visiting Lambeth
Academy tomorrow to meet Leon, one of those inspirational
headteachers, and understand what he has done throughout his
career journey.
I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (Mrs
Drummond) was a teacher—
Mrs Drummond
Ofsted inspector.
They were the ones I dreaded when I was in the classroom. It is
absolutely brilliant that she has that insight into the
profession. I understand the importance of maintaining that
high-quality education and ensuring that that the skill and
knowledge base is there, particularly with the important reforms
that we have made to GCSEs and A-levels. That is why I am
certainly intrigued to explore further what my hon. Friend the
Member for North West Durham said about primary education as
potentially a pilot route.
I thank the Minister for giving up a few seconds. On the primary
environment—the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) touched
on this earlier—the challenges in disadvantaged communities mean
that teachers are often seen as social workers, and some of the
issues that come through the door are more akin to those
experienced in an early years setting than in what we would
traditionally associated with a teaching setting. Does the
Minister agree that the opportunity to drag people from those
care and early years settings and place them in those primary
environments might be of huge benefit? That is slightly separate
to the discussion about academic excellence and brilliance at
post-16, which has been mentioned.
My hon. Friend makes fantastic points. I visited a school in
Wolverhampton recently to hear how the multi-academy trust had
hired its own social worker to work among its schools. I found
that very inspiring. Absolutely, looking at how we can build that
relationship between the early years sector and the primary
school sector—that knowledge base, that understanding and that
familiarity with the local people—is so important.
My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington () is a doughty champion. He
has been lobbying and banging the door over Carmel College and
its fantastic CEO, Mike Shorten. We know that an appeal is
coming, so my hon. Friend will appreciate, as I have said before,
that I cannot make any comment, but his and Mike’s comments have
been heard and will be taken into consideration when the appeal
is made.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins),
who also represents Staveley, for his kind words. I am sad that
my natural counterpart, the hon. Member for Portsmouth South
(), is not here. I assume that
he is still in detention with the Commissioner for Standards,
having been a bit of a naughty boy recently when he sent a letter
about me to The Guardian before she had made a comment. However,
I really do appreciate the opportunity to hear the fine words of
the hon. Member for Chesterfield and about his passion for level
2 and level 3 apprenticeships, which are absolutely important and
should not in any way be seen as unimportant by this Department.
Yes, we have put a lot of work into the degree level, but we want
those take-ups at level 2 and level 3, and we are very pleased
that that is continuing.
Finally, on teacher numbers, we have 466,000 full-time teachers
on the books. That is a record number and 24,000 more than in
2010. While there are, of course, rising teacher vacancy rates,
it is important to understand the context. The situation across
all sectors is challenging, but I will ensure that we challenge
that head-on with recruitment and retention strategies.
5.42pm
Mr Holden
I welcome the Minister’s pledge to continue to engage. I thank
all hon. Members who took part today. Some important matters were
raised.
The hon. Member for Strangford () raised teacher workload. In an intervention, my hon.
Friend the hon. Member for Totnes () raised the importance of
getting employers working with colleges and dealing with
apprenticeships. My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington () mentioned recruitment
issues. My hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond)
spoke about how we have to ensure that standards are maintained
at all costs, to ensure that children get the education they
need. My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield () spoke of being a champion of
real diversity in the teaching profession and in communities.
It was also good to hear from the hon. Member for Chesterfield
(Mr Perkins) that the Labour party is open to this, too, and want
to look forwards. I share some of his concerns, in particular
about things such as executive MBAs and cash from the
apprenticeship levy being used for them by some very high-end
companies, instead of driving skills for the people who really
need them. I also welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley
(), who I think is in his first
gig as a Parliamentary Private Secretary, sitting behind the
Minister.
In conclusion, I say to the Minister that there have been studies
on this matter. I ask him to reach out to the vice-chancellor of
the University of Gloucestershire. It was doing work with
multi-academy trusts in this space, and I think there is a lot
more that can be done. I do not expect the Minister to rush into
anything, but I think that this is a real opportunity for the
entire sector to turbocharge apprenticeships and open up the
profession to so many more people who would be great
teachers.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered Apprenticeships and teacher
training.
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