Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the Prime Minister last met
with representatives of the Trades Union Congress to discuss how
trade unionists can work with the Government to level up the
economy and build back better.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy () (Con)
My Lords, the Prime Minister last had a meeting with the Trades
Union Congress last December. The Department for Business, Energy
and Industrial Strategy works with trade unions, and positive
relationships are essential to developing and delivering our
policies. During the pandemic, engaging with the unions was
important to our work supporting jobs and keeping workers safe.
Continued engagement will support the Government’s ambitious
levelling-up agenda.
(Con)
I thank the Minister for his reply. As he will know, of the 6
million-plus trade unionists, a third vote for the Conservative
Party. Indeed, the Labour Party has recently told its members not
to go near picket lines, so it has made its position pretty
clear. Can the Minister say whether he would consider—since the
basic values of many trade unionists are at least small “c”
conservative—that it is now opportune for us to make a pitch to
them to show that this Government represent many of their core
values? We should encourage them to work with us, because we
occasionally will go on a picket line.
(Con)
I will take that as a statement from my noble friend himself
rather than the Front Bench. The Labour Party may indeed have
told its members not to sit on picket lines, but it did not make
any difference at the end of the day. My noble friend makes a
serious point of course. Our policies, with record low levels of
unemployment and the highest ever minimum wage, are good for
workers and we should be proud to say so.
(Lab)
My Lords, it seems to me that the premise at the heart of this
Question is the wrong way round. The Government should be
supporting those 6 million trade unionists in this country who
are really struggling to survive the cost of living crisis that
is before us. They should not be undermining them by allowing bad
bosses to break strikes with agency workers while, at the same
time, the shareholders and directors are cleaning up. Does the
Minister understand that the best way to build back better is to
empower workers and trade unions so that they can hold
unscrupulous employers to account?
(Con)
I am sorry to tell the noble Lord that I just do not share this
outdated methodology that, on the one hand, you have workers and,
on the other, you have bosses. We are all working together for
the good of the country. The thing about the trade unions in this
country is that they are now a minority profession: only 13% of
workers in the private sector and only half of those in the
public sector are in trade unions. The reality is that they do
not represent anybody.
The Lord Speaker ()
My Lords, the noble Lord, of Cheltenham, will make a
virtual contribution.
of Cheltenham (LD) [V]
[Inaudible]—responsibility for good industrial relations, which
are of course vital for a successful economy. On the subject of
levelling up, would the Minister have a word with the boss of
Sainsbury’s, whose annual salary has trebled to £3.9 million
while he denies a living wage to many of his hard-working
employees?
(Con)
Believe it or not, the pay levels in Sainsbury’s are nothing to
do with the Government—it is a private sector company. If people
like the service provided by Sainsbury’s, they will go to that
supermarket; if they do not, they will go to others.
(Lab)
My Lords, in 2019, across the UK as a whole, one in five jobs
were paid less than the real living wage. This figure excludes
the self-employed, half of whom earn significantly less than the
living wage. For levelling up to have meaning, the TUC has set
out recommendations in a report snappily called Levelling Up at
Work. Does the Minister agree that it is time that the Government
stop fighting the trade unions and work with them to secure jobs
across the UK, have decent pay levels and help families overcome
the cost of living crisis in this fifth-largest economy in the
world?
(Con)
Of course we want to work with all employee representatives who
are prepared to be constructive and who want to see a positive
way forward for the country that does not hold the travelling
public to ransom. No doubt the noble Lord will also be delighted
to know that we raised the minimum wage again in April and put
another £1,000 in the pocket of the lowest-paid workers.
My Lords, the Government are to be congratulated on raising the
minimum wage and I thank them for what they have done. There is,
however, a really serious point here. As we are facing a serious
range of strikes across many industries, the worry is that those
people in positions of leadership and authority are not
necessarily giving a lead. The question is: how can politicians
and business leaders show that they are sharing in the big
challenges, the financial challenges, that are coming up?
Importantly, although modest rises among those in leadership will
not make a huge difference to the overall financial package, it
will send out a really strong signal that we are all in this
together.
(Con)
I am grateful that the right reverend Prelate recognises the
increase in the minimum wage, which is good for so many of the
lowest paid workers. It is important for those at the top of
businesses to take a lead: they want to take their employees with
them and to provide a good service to their customers, and all
employers should bear that in mind.
(Con)
My Lords, the Minister is of course quite right when he says that
the trade unions are not as powerful as they were during the last
period of inflation, but they are still a very important element
in the economy, and if the Government are to be seen to be
tackling the cost of living crisis effectively, they really need
to be able to show that they are seeking the opinions, advice and
support of all sections of the community, and that includes the
trade unions.
(Con)
My ministerial colleague, the Minister for Small Business,
regularly meets with the trade unions. Another meeting is
planned, I believe, in the next few weeks. So yes, of course it
is important to gauge the opinion of trade unions, but I did not
use the word “powerful”; I said they were a minority interest. I
repeat: only 13% of workers in the private sector, the most
productive sector of the economy, are now in trade unions.
(Lab)
My Lords, since the Minister says that relations between the
Government and the TUC are positive, why does the Prime Minister
not direct the Transport Secretary to convene a meeting between
the rail unions and the rail employers in order to bring about a
settlement to the railway dispute?
(Con)
Because the responsibility for sitting down belongs to the
employers—in this case, Network Rail and the train operating
companies—and the trade unions. My understanding from listening
to Network Rail is that it has set out a very positive agenda. At
the end of the day, the taxpayer supported the railways to the
tune of £16 billion over the last few years: that is £160,000 for
every rail employee in this country. The taxpayer has been very
generous; it is about time the unions reciprocated.
(Lab)
My Lords, last week the Chancellor met with oil and gas company
directors to hear their concerns about energy policy. With that
in mind, will the Minister explain why the Transport Secretary
has not met the RMT? Which law prevents him doing so?
(Con)
If the RMT were prepared to seek a more constructive relationship
and to provide a service to the travelling public, maybe the
Transport Secretary would be prepared to meet it.
(LD)
My Lords, the Government are currently adding a large number of
amendments to the procurement Bill already before this House.
Have they thought that in the large number of procurement
contracts they sign with private business, they could perhaps
add, under the definition of “public benefit”, that companies
that pay their chief executives vastly more than the average for
their workers could have a black mark against gaining contracts
from the Government? I am thinking in particular of some of the
consultancies and auditing companies that have quite excessive
salaries at the top.
(Con)
I fear that I am not familiar with the provisions in the
procurement Bill. It is not a Bill that I am responsible for, but
I will certainly have a look at the point the noble Lord
makes.
(Lab)
My Lords, I think the noble Lord, , might find that his voting
figures are a bit shaky after last week’s by-election results.
Why are the Government messing around with more antiunion
legislation at a time when they are also lifting the cap on
bonuses, doing absolutely nothing about inflation in boardrooms
and in some parts of financial services, and ignoring their own
experience of working closely with unions on the furlough scheme,
which worked very well and was very successful? That experience
should provide a blueprint for tackling the cost of living
crisis, so will the Government make an effort, a proper effort,
to find common ground in the current very difficult
circumstances, instead of stoking conflict with the unions?
(Con)
Nobody is stoking conflict with the unions. I do not know what
antiunion legislation the noble Lord is referring to, but if he
means the minimum strike guarantee, that was a manifesto
commitment. I would have thought he would be in favour of a
service being provided to the travelling public to enable other
ordinary men and women to go to work when they want to do so.
