Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to their announcement on
6 May regarding “dual registration” for specialist touring
hauliers, what assessment they have made of the impact this will
have on artists and organisations which tour in their own
vehicles and operate under “own account”; and whether they have
considered support for smaller hauliers operating which do not
have the resources to operate dual registration.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Transport () (Con)
My Lords, specialist touring hauliers operating under “own
account” can utilise the dual-registration measure if they have a
standard international operator licence, which they must apply
for, and a base in Great Britain and another country. Operators
will need to make their own decisions on whether they choose to
do so based on business need and resources available to them.
(LD)
My Lords, this is all very much half a loaf. If a comprehensive
solution is not found, the damage to the UK music industry and
the events support industry will be massive. The Prime Minister
has assured us that the Government are working “flat out” on the
touring issue. Can the Minister assure the House that her
department is urgently working on finding a wider solution, such
as an exemption from cabotage for all trucks engaged on cultural
events?
(Con)
Certainly, the department has worked incredibly hard on this and
continues to do so. We had a public consultation back in
February, and we are deeply engaged with the industry,
particularly the specialist haulage industry, which is so
important. We know that about one in five hauliers has already
set up within the EU, and many more have plans to do so. We
recognise that the dual-registration system will not benefit
absolutely everybody. However, it is the case under the TCA that
many hauliers will be able to make use of their two cross-trades
within the bilateral EU-UK movements that they can make. So it
does not mean that all touring is off the table. We believe that,
at the moment, we have the best possible solution, in light of
the current response from the EU.
(CB)
The Minister will be aware that, alongside cabotage, CITES and
carnet regulations are adding further cost and complexity to
post-Brexit touring. Last week at the EU-UK Parliamentary
Partnership Assembly in Brussels, there was welcome support for
my argument that, given that both sides say that they offered a
deal that the other rejected, it means that we have common
cause—and it is an issue that we could, in fact, resolve quickly,
unlike some of the more complicated issues on the table. Does the
Minister agree and, if so, will the Government consider a
cultural exemption for all three Cs—cabotage, carnets and
CITES—as the most practical solution to a problem that we all
want to resolve?
(Con)
The noble Baroness raises some important points, and I shall
ensure that my department and the Government make sure that we
make the most of the areas where we already have agreement.
However, I am afraid that we know that the EU will not accept
greater amounts of cabotage.
The (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge that there is a precedent
in the temporary cabotage exemption negotiated for international
hauliers working in the UK to provide support for supply chains
while addressing the shortage of HGV drivers? At the very least,
an own account exemption could be negotiated, which would be a
great help.
(Con)
Those two things are not the same, in that the cabotage easement
that we put in place was for EU hauliers coming to the UK, which
meant that they could do unlimited cabotage within the 14 days.
The EU did not reciprocate; it did not change its cabotage
arrangements at all for UK- registered hauliers, who can do only
one cabotage movement within the EU, and one cross-trade.
(LD)
I am sure that the Minister is aware that those performers most
affected are those at the lower and middle part of the industry.
How will they be helped by these cabotage provisions, which will
be of use only to the biggest specialist hauliers?
(Con)
The cabotage conditions will, of course, apply to everybody,
unless they have an EU base. As for the smaller hauliers and
those operating on their own account, as I said previously, they
can operate if they have the standard international operator
licence. They can also get an ECMT international road haulage
permit, which gives an extra cross-trade. So an organisation
based in the UK could travel to the EU and do events in three
separate countries, all within the current regulations.
(CB)
My Lords, further to the Minister’s reply to the noble Lord,
, many orchestras have
their own vehicles for touring in Europe, specially fitted out at
considerable expense to meet their specific needs. As I
understand it, these are now virtually unusable as a result of
the own account exemption being excluded from the trade and
co-operation agreement. Can the Minister enlighten me? She seemed
to imply that that was not the case, whereas the orchestras
concerned feel that they cannot use their own vehicles for
touring in Europe.
(Con)
They can use their own vehicles for touring in Europe if they
have a standard operator licence. They still have to remain
within the requirements set out in the TCA, which is either two
cross-trades or one cross-trade and one cabotage. However, as I
have said previously, they can get an ECMT permit to do three
cross-trades. We recognise the challenges for those operating on
their own account, because they have to operate within those
particular requirements. However, if they are of a significant
size, they may wish to set up an organisation in the EU, and then
they would have slightly greater, although not unlimited,
flexibility—but it might be helpful.
(Lab)
My Lords, it seems to me that the Minister is saying that the
Government have done as much as they intend to do. It is equally
clear from the industry press that the industry feels that this
is a really serious problem for small and medium-sized
performers. I do not understand the industry very well, but I
would imagine that big bands come from little bands and that the
importance of the industry over time is that the small successes
are able to grow. Surely this whole situation is sufficiently
serious for the department to continue pressure to try to devise
a system that works for the smaller operators.
(Con)
My Lords, I reassure all noble Lords that we have thought long
and hard about this. We have engaged with the EU but, when we did
so, the exemption for specialist hauliers was rejected. Our door
remains open for discussing alternative exemptions. There is a
limit to what we can do on a unilateral basis. This was the best
idea that came up both from my officials working on this and from
our consultation with industry—68% were in favour of this. When
it comes to smaller operators and those operating on their own
account, the other option would be for them to go into
partnership with an EU haulier and thereby provide that
continuity across the system.
The (CB)
My Lords, I back up what the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, was
saying about a good body of opinion among the MEPs that we met at
the Parliamentary Partnership Assembly last week, which was very
sympathetic to this problem. It is very much a problem designed
to be discussed by the trade-specialised committees of the trade
and co-operation agreement. Can the Minister tell us which
specialised committee will be tackling it and when that committee
will next meet?
(Con)
Unfortunately, I will have to write to the noble Earl; I do not
have that with me today.
(CB)
My Lords, the Minister suggests that things are getting better,
but we are starved of any information about the damage that has
been done to this sector over the last two or three years. Would
she be so kind as to provide the House with some statistics
showing how many of these operators have been able to tour and
have got cabotage rights, carnets and so on over the last, say,
four years? That would be a great help.
(Con)
It is a very complex picture. As I mentioned earlier, one in five
has already set up with an EU base and a further 6% plan to do
so. However, as I also mentioned, it is the case that many tours
can already go ahead depending on how many different stops that
particular event will have within the EU. If I can find any
further details from the industry, I will certainly write to the
noble Lord.
(Lab)
My Lords, further to the Minister’s answer to the noble Lord, can
she give any encouragement or hope to youth orchestras? It is not
just professional orchestras that are finding it difficult to
tour. Youth orchestras are vital for the experience gained by the
young people—I admit that both my children spent years touring
and playing all over Europe and had enormous experience with the
Stoneleigh Youth Orchestra—but I fear that these in particular
are falling completely by the wayside. Can the Minister offer any
hope or encouragement for them?
(Con)
I am not aware that there is a particular issue here for youth
orchestras. Like any orchestra, if a youth orchestra does not
have its own vehicles, it can of course contract with an
appropriate haulier which is able to operate within the regime
that is set up in the UK and in the EU. It will depend on the
sort of tour that youth orchestras want to do and how many
countries they will be visiting as to the rules and regulations
and which licences will need to be held by the haulier with which
they choose to contract.
(LD)
My Lords, is the gist of what the Minister has said today that
everything is satisfactory and nothing further needs to be
done?
(Con)
I completely reject that—that is not what I am saying at all. The
Government absolutely recognise that the measures that we have
put in place help the sector and mean that a large proportion of
the UK industry can continue to operate, but we acknowledge that
not all specialist operators will be in a position to establish a
base overseas. As I have said before, our door remains open; we
would wish to discuss this with the EU but so far, unfortunately,
it has not wanted to do so.
