Asked by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean To ask Her Majesty’s Government
what plans they have (1) to impose sanctions on the import of gas
and oil from Russia, and (2) to encourage (a) coal-fired power
generation, and (b) investment in (i) shale gas fracking, and (ii)
offshore energy sources. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of
State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
(Lord Callanan) (Con) My Lords, we have imposed the most severe
package of...Request free trial
Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have (1) to
impose sanctions on the import of gas and oil from Russia, and
(2) to encourage (a) coal-fired power generation, and (b)
investment in (i) shale gas fracking, and (ii) offshore energy
sources.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for
Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy () (Con)
My Lords, we have imposed the most severe package of sanctions
that Russia has ever seen. Although there is currently no ban on
Russian oil and gas imports, this is under urgent review.
However, the UK is in no way dependent on Russian gas. In 2021,
it made up less than 4% of our supply. Most of our gas came from
domestic production and reliable suppliers such as Norway. To
boost energy security, we need to generate more domestic
renewable power.
(Con)
My Lords, although we all want a cleaner, greener future, surely
we have a duty to put the maximum pressure on President Putin
when the situation in Ukraine is beyond grim. Should we not
therefore develop our own resources—in the North Sea, through
fracking and through nuclear power—to guarantee security of
supply, which surely must be the first duty of any
Government?
(Con)
I agree with a number of the points my noble friend made. Of
course we should put the maximum pressure on Putin because of his
appalling actions, and continue to invest in the North Sea for
our domestic production. We should also continue to invest in
nuclear power and renewables. One point I differ with him on
slightly is fracking, which I am afraid does not offer the silver
bullet many people think it does.
(Lab)
My Lords, is it the Government’s view that the current and
proposed increases in energy prices fundamentally alter the
economic and security case for tidal barrages, such as that
proposed for Swansea Bay?
(Con)
Not directly. The cheapest and most effective renewable source in
the UK is offshore wind, which is why we are continuing to
develop that at pace. We already have one of the largest offshore
wind sectors in the world. We have a target of considerable extra
capacity, moving up to 30 gigawatts by 2030.
(CB)
My Lords, Russia is clearly the immediate focus, but will the
Government take a wider strategic view and set urgent work in
hand to reduce our dependence on the supply of resources, goods
and services from all autocracies, most particularly China?
(Con)
Of course we need a diverse mix of energy, which this Question is
about, and to generate as much of our own power as possible. The
noble and gallant Lord makes a good point about reducing our
dependence on autocracies.
(LD)
Does the Minister agree that, if we think we can solve the
current fossil fuel crisis by pretending that the clear and
present danger of climate change does not exist, we will simply
call down a far greater catastrophe on the world? Does he agree
that the answer to the fossil fuel crisis is to invest to get off
them as soon as possible, not to burn more of them?
(Con)
The answer to the high price of oil, gas and fossil fuels is to
use less of them. To that extent I agree with the noble Lord.
That is why we are generating as much as we possibly can from
renewables. That is why we accelerated the contracts for
difference round, why we have one of the largest capacities in
the world, and why we need to expand it even further.
(Con)
Is my noble friend Lord Forsyth not entirely right that some very
tough short-term measures will have to be taken to help break the
Russian monopoly—one part of the measures we need to put pressure
on them? Should we not take this opportunity to develop a solid
future energy security strategy? Should not a central part of
that be to seize the moment to recommit ourselves to rebuilding a
strong, low-carbon nuclear sector, as we once had in this
country, to meet all contingencies, particularly when disruptions
occur, such as Ukraine, or when the wind does not blow?
(Con)
Indeed. I agree very much with my noble friend, who makes some
extremely good points. We need to bear in mind that a relatively
small percentage of our supply is from Russia, of both oil and
gas; it makes up less than 4%. I totally agree with him regarding
nuclear. Indeed, for those noble Lords who are interested, the
Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill is in Grand Committee
tomorrow.
(Lab)
My Lords, I have heard the Minister’s response, taking on board
in part the point from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and
recognise that we live in uncertain times. For clarity, can the
Minister reconfirm the Government’s commitment to prioritising
the development of renewables and that Ministers are looking to
speed this programme up, and further commit to ensuring that the
Government will renew measures to protect the poorest in our
communities from the worsening impacts of rising energy
prices?
(Con)
I agree in large part with what the noble Lord said. Of course we
need to expand our renewable capacity as quickly as possible. We
already have record amounts and we need to pursue that. We are
introducing contracts for difference rounds every year to
maintain the ongoing flow of supply. As the noble Lord is aware,
we introduced a £9.1 billion package of support for the poorest
households.
(PC)
My Lords, we need to maintain the maximum possible pressure on
Putin, obviously. The biggest problem facing mankind is global
warming, which could wipe out humanity within a couple of
centuries. That being so, would it not be totally irresponsible
to restart coal burning in order to generate electricity when
that generates 30 times more units of carbon than renewable and
offshore generation?
(Con)
That is a very wide-ranging question. I think I would disagree
with the noble Lord: I think Putin is a bigger threat at the
moment to worldwide peace and stability. The important thing to
bear in mind with regard to climate change, which is of course an
important subject, is the tiny percentage of global warming
caused by our emissions in the UK, which are rapidly decreasing.
It is something that we need to work on, on a global basis; just
eliminating our emissions on our own is really not going to make
any difference.
(CB)
My Lords, I very much agree with the various points already made,
but in the light of the Ukrainian crisis, have the Government got
serious plans to bring forward and radically increase investment
in green hydrogen development? If they do have such plans, will
the Minister write to me with the details and put a copy of the
letter in the Library?
(Con)
We have a very ambitious hydrogen strategy and it is perfectly
possible that hydrogen will be one element of our campaign to
decarbonise the UK economy. We will shortly be moving towards a
hydrogen business model and we will attempt to roll out hydrogen
production. However, again, no decisions are imminent, and it
will be a few years before we know the full potential that
hydrogen can offer.
(LD)
My Lords, Germany has announced a £222 billion plan to transform
its economy between now and 2026. Central to that is to wean
itself off fossil fuels fast. Where is our big plan for immediate
climate-compatible action?
(Con)
I do not think the noble Baroness is quoting a very good example.
The Germans have made a singular mess of much of their policies
by phasing out nuclear power, which has resulted in the burning
of much more coal. I am not sure that that is an example of what
the noble Baroness wants us to follow. We have an excellent plan
in this country. We have a much bigger renewable sector than
Germany, which puts far too much reliance on gas from Russia and
now may well be paying the consequences.
Going back to Ukraine, is it not a fact that Russian gas is
coming to this country by ship, in LNG tankers? In that case, why
do we as a country not refuse entry to any of those tankers from
this day forward?
(Con)
We have already banned all Russian oil and gas tankers entering
UK ports and we are looking to go further to ban cargoes from
Russia as well.
(Lab)
My Lords, the market for oil and gas is global, and therefore the
figure that the Minister has cited twice about our dependence
being only 4% is entirely irrelevant to what happens to the price
of energy in the UK. If there is a shortage of gas in Germany,
the gas price goes up globally. The only answer to this is to
reduce hydrocarbon use throughout Europe, and therefore reduce
the market which the Russians are exploiting.
(Con)
The noble Lord makes a sensible point. Of course it is an
international market. It is usually operated by private
companies, and any shortages in Russia will feed through into the
UK. It will not affect the price, but it will affect our energy
security, which is why I used the fact that only 4% of our gas is
Russian. Most of our supply comes from our resources in the North
Sea or from Norway. Security of supply is not affected, but the
noble Lord is right about international pricing.
Baroness O'Loan (CB)
Given that the increase in fuel prices for both domestic and
commercial use has been very significant—the consequence of which
is that the Government are taking hugely increased revenues from
the taxes applicable to that fuel—do the Government have any
plans to cap or reduce the level of tax charged on fuel in those
circumstances, and to redistribute that money for the benefit not
just of people at the extreme end of the poverty line but of
those seeking to be involved commercially?
(Con)
I will leave the setting of taxation policies to the Chancellor,
but the noble Baroness makes a good point. Of course, we have
already announced a record-breaking £9.1 billion package to
alleviate some of the worst excesses of the current increases in
fuel prices, but I do not want to mislead anyone: this will not
solve all of the problem. This is a global crisis and we cannot
insulate ourselves completely from international pricing.
(Con)
My Lords, as the Question put by my noble friend indicates, this is
an urgent crisis. We do not have time to develop many things but
we do have time to stop Russian imports full stop and, although
it may be painful, the sooner that is done, the better.
(Con)
We are looking at this seriously and decisions will be announced
shortly but it is important to bear in mind that, while we would
all love there to be quick and easy solutions, the building,
construction and implementation of energy infrastructure takes
many years, sometimes even decades. I am afraid there are no
quick solutions to any of this.
(LD)
My Lords, the remarkable spike in gas prices today indicates a
real challenge ahead for gas distribution in this country. To
date, the big companies have absorbed the customers of the
smaller companies that have gone bankrupt. As things stand, those
big companies will themselves come under huge pressure with
forward contracts that they cannot cover. What is the department
doing, in consultation with the gas companies in this country, to
maintain security of supply for the consumers of Great
Britain?
(Con)
A number of companies are indeed under pressure and,
unfortunately, we have seen a number exiting the market. I assure
the noble Lord that we are in regular contact with all the gas
and electricity supply companies; my right honourable friend the
Secretary of State meets them regularly. This is indeed an
unprecedented crisis but we are closely following events and I
can say that, while there is obviously a problem with the price,
there is no problem with security of supply.
(Lab)
My Lords, the Minister referred to the German decision to
discontinue nuclear energy but is he satisfied with the progress
that we are making in developing new nuclear?
(Con)
Yes, I am satisfied with the progress that this Government are
making. It is disappointing that previous Governments did not
take action on new nuclear urgently; should the noble Lord wish
to follow the debate tomorrow, we will be in Grand Committee on
the Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill.
(CB)
My Lords, the Minister referred to sanctions against oil coming
in through Russian tankers but I understand that oil is coming in
through other tankers owned by other companies. What are the
Government going to do about that?
(Con)
That was indeed the point I made in response to the Question. We
have banned Russian vessels but, at the moment, cargo can still
be imported, in relatively small quantities, from other vessels.
We are in urgent consultation with our allies on whether we can
go further.
(Con)
My Lords, I have listened carefully to this debate. While I
accept that it is no silver bullet, is the real question in the
short term not if the Government will start fracking but
when?
(Con)
I understand the attraction of this option but I am afraid that,
having looked closely at this, there are some severe
environmental problems—we cannot hide this fact—with original
fracking operations. Lancashire is not Texas; it is much more
heavily populated. Fracking is a relatively unproven technology
in the UK. The reality is that it would be many years, if not
decades, before we got meaningful quantities of gas out of the
ground, even if we could resolve all the environmental
problems—and none of that would affect the current price. We
would not be producing anywhere near enough gas to affect the
high prices in an international market so I am afraid, much as I
would love it to be the case, it really is not the silver bullet
that people think it is.
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