Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to
introduce legislation “to provide the intelligence agencies with
the tools they need to tackle the intelligence challenges posed
by Russia”, as called for by the Intelligence and Security
Committee in its the Annual Report for 2019-2021 (HC 877).
The Minister of State, Home Office () (Con)
My Lords, I am very pleased to confirm that, as announced in the
Queen’s Speech, the Government are committed to bringing forward
new legislation to counter state threats and ensure that our
world-class security services and law enforcement agencies
continue to have the tools that they need to tackle the evolving
threat and any challenging or hostile activities by any
state.
(LD)
My Lords, in that case, where is the Bill? This is a question of
priorities. We have a number of badly drafted, long Bills before
the House at present, but this is a question of national
security. It is two and a half years since the ISC Russia report
was published and the Prime Minister has dragged his feet ever
since. Can the Minister assure us that the links of the Russian
elite to the UK, to which the report refers, and its links to
political parties are not part of the cause of the delay, given
the amount of Russian-origin money which has flowed into
Conservative Party finances?
(Con)
I can absolutely assure the noble Lord of two things. The Bill
will be state agnostic and linked to the actions of whichever
state or actor is trying to perpetrate evil against this country;
it will not be country specific. On the delay, this area of law
is complex and some of this legislation has not been updated in
over a century, so we must make sure that we both bring it up to
date and future-proof it.
(Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of the Reserve Forces
review 2030. Providing access to skills and tools was at the
heart of the Question. The Reserve Forces review 2030 is all
about trying to access civilian skills through the medium of the
reserve to support the Government. Given the relationship between
the intelligence agencies and defence intelligence, does my noble
friend not think that, if we were better at this, we could use
the reserve to provide the very skills we are calling for to
counter the Russian threat?
(Con)
My noble friend homes in on a very important point, which is that
we must use all the skills and tools in our armour to counteract
whichever threat we are facing. That is why it is so important
that this Bill comes forward to allow us to use those skills and
tools.
(Lab Co-op)
My Lords, does the Minister think that President Putin is going
to treat seriously any threats from or , when we are continuing to give hundreds of Russian
oligarchs golden visas to enable them to get British citizenship
and, perhaps even eventually, membership of the House of Lords?
Is this not a total farce?
(Con)
My Lords, in terms of people being a threat to this country, the
noble Lord talked about, as I have often done, the funny money
that might be swirling around—
(Lab Co-op)
The golden visas.
(Con)
I think he kind of talked about both: visas and money coming into
this country. He will know from legislation that I brought in
previously that, through unexplained wealth orders and things
like that, we are doing everything we can to stop the flow of
illicit finance in this country. I cannot comment further on
golden visas, except to say that we are very, very careful about
the visas we issue and the people we let into this country.
(LD)
My Lords, speaking of legislation that has not appeared, will the
Minister acknowledge, as other Ministers have, that the Bill
providing for a public register of the beneficial owners of
property in the UK has been ready to go for weeks but has not yet
been introduced in this House? Will she also confirm that the
intelligence services have no hope of dealing with what is known
as the London laundromat until that Bill becomes law, when civic
society across the globe and activists can assist the
intelligence services in getting to the bottom of these chains of
ownership that lead, in the end, to oligarchs and
kleptocrats?
(Con)
The noble Baroness illustrates some of the complexities around
state activity. She is absolutely right—I recall her being
involved in the Bill—and the Government have made a start on
this. We have things such as unexplained wealth orders in place,
and we will be bringing forward legislation to deal with the
various threats that are impeding the rule of law and our
economy.
(Lab)
My Lords, in the 2020 report the committee found that until
recently, the Government had badly underestimated the response
required to the Russian threat and were still playing catch-up.
Shockingly, that same report also found that the UK was clearly a
target, but that no one within government was prepared to take
responsibility for the defence of the UK’s democratic processes.
Therefore, can the Minister reassure the House that whatever
legislation the Government are proposing will deal with those
specific points, and that they will move quickly to deal with
this and the other issues that noble Lords have raised today?
(Con)
I most certainly can reassure noble Lords that we will be looking
at all legislative possibilities to deal with the various issues
that the noble Lord, the noble Baroness and other noble Lords
have raised today.
(LD)
The Foreign Secretary pledges “nowhere to hide” for Putin’s
oligarchs, but they are “hiding in plain sight” in their London
mansions. In 2018, the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee said
that the London laundromat of corrupt, Kremlin-connected
assets
“has implications for national security.”
That was nearly four years ago. Do we have to wait until its
chairman, , becomes Prime Minister, as he wants to do, before
action is taken?
(Con)
As far as I am aware, there is no vacancy for the post of Prime
Minister, but there is ongoing work to implement the
recommendations as soon as practicable. I note at this stage that
the majority of the recommendations do not actually need
legislation, but we are getting on with them and great progress
is being made.
(Lab)
My Lords, might not the current threat from Russia be diminished
if Ukraine could be persuaded to adopt a neutral stance like that
of Finland?
(Con)
I do not think I would agree with that point, no.
(LD)
My Lords, have the Government ever considered the use of
compulsory purchase orders when ownership of property is being
deliberately concealed?
(Con)
The noble Lord makes an appealing point but the situation is far
more complex than that. Particularly with the unexplained wealth
orders legislation that I brought through a couple of years ago,
it is not as easy as just compulsorily purchasing houses.
(Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest as the House of Lords member of
the Intelligence and Security Committee. These reports are done
in huge detail, with huge inputs from people who know a lot about
this. Particularly in the case of the Russian report, it took a
very long time for it even to be taken note of by the Prime
Minister. Can the Minister ensure that reports such as that—other
reports are on their way—are actioned rapidly and moved forward,
rather than being effectively sidelined?
(Con)
I agree with the noble Lord’s point. Ongoing work is being done
to implement the recommendations in the report, many of which do
not need legislation. However, the noble Lord makes an absolutely
valid point.
(Non-Afl)
My Lords, the weekend papers were full of reports saying that the
Government were threatening to sanction members of Putin’s inner
circle if he went ahead and invaded Ukraine. However, given that
he has invaded Crimea, assassinated his opponents here in the UK
and looted Russia’s economy, thereby impoverishing the poor
Russian citizens, why have the Government not considered doing
this anyway?
(Con)
The noble Lord is absolutely right. I am not party to some of the
discussions going on in the FCDO and elsewhere, but he highlights
the point that we have a major problem with regard to the
influence here.
(Lab)
My Lords, the reason why Putin and his ilk do not worry too much
about economic sanctions is that much of their wealth is
laundered over here. The Minister referred to the unexplained
wealth orders legislation. Can she explain why there have been
few, if any, successful prosecutions?
(Con)
There have been some, and as I have explained to the House, it is
quite complex and sometimes these things are very difficult to
secure. There is more work to be done.
