Report on todays meeting of the Lords Committee on National Plan for Sport and Recreation

The House of Lords Committee on National Plan for Sport and Recreation today heard evidence from:

Nigel Huddleston MP

Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Minister for Sport and Tourism at Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport

Rt Hon Nick Gibb MP

Minister of State, Minister for School Standards at Department for Education

Jo Churchill MP

Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Minister for Prevention, Public Health and Primary Care at Department for Health and Social Care

Existing information:

• The Government’s response to the weight of evidence the Committee have received suggesting sport policy across the country is fragmented and uncoordinated.

• Whether Local Authorities are overlooked in the strategic planning of sport and recreation policy and how they can have a bigger role.

• How PE in schools can be improved to engage more young people including a possible focus on physical literacy and better PE training for primary school teachers.

• What more the Government can do to open school sports facilities up to community and grassroots sports clubs.

• How the Office of Health Promotion will impact sport and recreation policy and whether it will get the same priority and resources as other forms of health intervention.

• How sport can be prioritised in the UK’s post COVID-19 recovery plans.

Notes on proceeding:

• Lord Willis of Knaresborough (Chair): Strong origins in the 2015 strategy for an active nation -- supportive of this initiative. What is the government trying to achieve in investing in sports and activity?

• Nigel Huddleston: it included sports and activity, as well as mental health. We are trying to refresh this initiative. The goal of the government is to encourage and develop sports at both grassroot and elite levels.

• • The two vehicles are through funding of UK Sport at elite level and sporting at grassroots level

  • Through lottery and government funding, we have had success

  • Metrics of success are the Active Life survey

  • Young people are pivotal in this success

  • In this post Covid era, we have a lot of catching up to do

  • We want to get back to a more normal level (similar to pre-covid level)

  • However, there is a mixed picture that exists right know -- rural vs. urban areas

  • We want to get to pre-Covid levels and beyond that

  • DCMS does not have direct control over what happens at schools -- but this refreshed approach will involve multiple government departments

• Lord Willis: you talk about working together with other departments, this was in the original strategy. You talk about the weekly DCMS meetings, but there is no evidence that these meetings take place. There is no evaluation of these meetings. What is happening there and why do we not hear about them?

• Nigel Huddleston: COVID has derailed business a little bit. In terms of implementing strategy, we give the annual report through Sporting Future to parliament. This has been delayed admittedly. At a ministerial level, we (the people in the meeting) talk regularly. The normal rhythm of business has been affected by COVID. In the refresh, we will make sure our metrics are a little bit more clear.

• Lord Willis: In terms of looking at the evidence of the Active Lives Strategy, we have found evidence that there is a serious lack of focus on lower socio-economics groups, on BAME, on communities that are the poorest, and disabled communities. What is your response to these statistics?

• Nigel Huddleston: These statistics cause me alarm as well. We have seen a widening gap especially during COVID. During Sports Investment England, those groups have had a serious focus on money.

• • There are broader questions of play in terms of culture, parental responsibilities

  • On the focus on sports, having identified those gaps, action was taken to target money for greater focus on those groups

  • There will never be enough money, but we are not blind to these statistics.

  • I will not pretend for one minute that it is job done. But it would be unfair to categorise that we have not noticed or taken action on these statistics.

• Lord Willis: Living initiative -- is this part of a broader government strategy? What does success look like?

• Jo Churchill: This pandemic has hit those who have less access to services and the ability to exercise. The key focus in the department during the pandemic has been on enabling people to take exercise in the easiest way possible.

• • That need for people to keep fit has driven the actions we have taken since

  • We have worked closely with the CMO

  • We need to level up certain groups. It is not easy to give people access to all facilities at their doorstep. But we have given people the responsibility over their own activities.

  • Under-represented groups have had greater decline in their physical activities

  • Same with women and girls and certain areas

  • In our action plan in 2015 has coloured how we have tried to respond during the pandemic

  • We know the major challenge we have during the pandemic is obesity.

  • It just went throughout the statistics

  • The healthier people are, the more resilient they are.

  • Where adults have good levels of activity, those good levels of behaviour enable you to fight disease more proactively

• Lord Willis: In terms of school games and school activity action plans, are these evaluated by your department? How do you evaluate success?

• Nick Gibb: We rely on the activity survey. 45% of children are active for around an average 60 minutes a day. We look very carefully at those surveys. We have also looked at the PE and Sports Premium which is a significant sum of money. We looked at the impact of doubling that to 160 million to 320 million back in 2017. In 2018 we carried out a survey in schools, and teaching confidence rose. We evaluate through this premium and through the active lives survey.

• Lord Hayward: Can I ask Jo, in relation to those people who are inactive, the government is not achieving anything with that group and was not achieving anything with that group before COVID. I am not convinced that we are achieving anything. I fear we are going backwards. Is there anything you can point to show that we are turning the corner?

• Jo Churchill: I would point to the NHS app launched during COVID and the Better Health campaign which has had 100s of thousands of downloads that encourages people to get active. I also point to park runs. It is easily accessible, but not to all communities. I am in discussion with Singaporean health ministers about health incentives.

• • You set up schemes that reward people who get healthier

  • We have to think differently. We have people who have been inactive for a long time.

  • The antecedent for many diseases is high levels of inactivity.

  • We have long waiting lists for people waiting for elective surgery, we need to increase activity levels.

  • But we will still not get to everyone, which is why we are trying the incentive scheme.

• Baroness Sater: Local authorities are not involved in strategic plans. Local authorities put in 1 billion but the DCMS is not interested in working with them. How do you address this?

• Nigel Huddleston: We do engage with local authorities. I am disappointed to hear that comment. We will engage with them in the refresh. There is a role for central and local government here. There is a strong intent from me to engage local authorities.

• • But we are not a big spending department

  • It is not a strategic intent to exclude them

• Nick Gibb: We rely on local partnerships. 10.1 million pounds to open school facilities is administered through the 42 active partnerships.

• Lord Addington: How do you push entrance-level participation?

• Jo Churchill: We work with MSCHG and directors of public health. They will be integral through CCGs and the new ICSs. I am trying to think of what department I do not work with Lord Addington. We work very closely with our colleagues in local government. It is the only way we have been able to get through these past months.

• Lord Moynihan: How confident can we be that this new office will have the leadership in government to coordinate across departments and be held accountable. There is concern that we do not have sufficient resources. What confidence can you give us about the future launch of the new office of health promotion?

• Jo Churchill: We had that internal discussion. Where is it best placed -- inside or outside? The CMO has provided impartial expert judgement and will continue to provide leadership. It will be led by a DG reporting to the General Secretary and we will have our own deputy chief medical officer reporting to the CMO.

• • The ambition of the office: the importance of bringing expertise together

  • The office of health promotion is separate to the UK HSCSA

  • We need to encourage girls to stay active during later years. Drugs, addiction, alcohol are what we need to focus on.

  • We want to encourage people to make health a priority

• LM: How can we ensure that this is going to be well funded and that we have enough resources?

• Jo Churchill: On the staffing front, staff from Public Health England will be coming to the department. We are committed to ensuring the funding is there.

• LM: There is a major issue to be considered which is the [prosti parliament] issues. Is there something you will be doing to ensure that this will not become embedded in silos?

• Jo Churchill: On the 1 of October with the department coming live, it will be a priority of Prime Minister to pool resources in DH in both the SR and in the office of health promotion in its new form.

• • We have joint projects with both education and DCMS - with education in particular. They enjoy through the sports premium.

  • The one thing the office of health promotion can do is see where we are spending money effectively. There is a lot of money in the system making sure that we are encouraging departments to look at best value. We need to ask are we doing this as efficiently as possible? Ensuring good standards of nutrition need to be run through all departments of government. We cannot be one of the unhealthiest countries in Europe.

Lord Willis: Is this a takeover for your department Nigel? How do you see this office working with Sport England?

Nigel Huddleston: I would not say this is a takeover but I would welcome any institution with similar goals. As long as we agree on roles and responsibilities, I do not care who takes leadership. As long as we are well coordinated, I am not too bothered.

Lord Willis: Jo said that health first should become the mantra. Yet when she was talking, she was not talking about the cabinet member leading this. Do we need a cabinet member leading this?

Nigel Huddleston: I don’t want to step on Jo’s toes, but in terms of sports and activities, we do have cabinet members at the heart of this. We have heard straight from the PM’s mouth how important sports and activity is. All cabinet members get it. I am quite reassured about the political commitment.

Lord Willis: The question of the policies of the delivery of sports and recreation is uncoordinated. Do you see this as the answer? Are all our eggs in this particular basket?

Nigel Huddleston: there are always lessons learnt. Sport is not necessarily the same thing as physical activity. The broad preventative agenda covers a wider spectrum. I spent a lot of time talking with sports governing bodies -- I have relied on Sport England on general activity levels.

• I would say we are more coordinated than it may look

• The mechanisms we have put in place, like the Sports survival package, we have coordinated with other government departments.

• But, there is always more scope to be more coordinated.

• The refresh is timely

Lord Willis: About cross-government response coordination, where does education fit into that?

Nick Gibb: to some extent, departments need to be departments. For things to happen in school, this needs to happen from the DofE. Despite the necessity of different departments delivering things, obviously we need to be coordinated.

Lord Willis: Is there a fragmented framework?

Nick Gibb: I don’t really. The delivery mechanisms sound fragmented but when you have officials meeting frequently, that is a sign of coordination. You cannot have a single department dealing with everything. The key thing is that people are working together.

Lord Hayward: Nigel can I go to you first with 3 questions. A) Do we need a sports ombudsman as recommended by Baroness Grey Thompson’s independent review? b) do we need to make reporting mandatory, c) should adult duty of care requirements be mandatory to receive public funding?

Nigel Huddleston: The third point is yes, the first two are maybe. On the ombudsman, the jury is out. On the final point, I think yes we need to focus on that.

LH: Shouldn’t the government have a greater role?

Nigel Huddleston: In certain aspects, you are right. In the areas of concussion, there is a lot of activity going on at the moment. We simply do not have information regarding the data. Is it being reported correctly? Do we have enough? You have hit the nail on the head with the question: is the data there? In exploitation, reporting is the problem. We cannot solely rely on dispersed data. We might have to turn to personal anecdotes and whistleblowing.

LH: IS it a condemnation of the department of sports that we do not have the information

Nigel Huddleston: In multiple areas, there has been significant progress. Things have been improved in the past ¾ years. The fact that we have acknowledged that things aren’t perfect is progress.

Jo Churchill: DCMS has responsibility over safeguarding over other sports and DofE in schools. With concussion in rugby, we have another meeting next week. In regard to Lord Hayward’s point, you have to notice the issues with data. Proportionate access is more than just a stroke of a pen. Data and research is still being worked on. Health comes in when appropriate.

Nick Gibb: There is the Sport England and UK Sports code to meet. There are specific obligations around safeguarding and the standards for safeguarding.

Lord Willis: With the new office for health promotion, the likelihood of delivering a recipe for greater physical activity will become the norm rather than the exception …

Jo Churchill: I would refer you back to the answer. It is led by the CMO. The CMO’s objective is to drive up levels of activity. We do not need safeguarding for going on a walk or a run. I would push back against what goes on in school is the responsibility of the department of education. I am not trying to avoid it

Baroness Grey-Thompson: what is the government’s position on post-COVID recovery plans and the plans for sports and physical activity and how we can reboot the activity rates? Great spectator events (like the Euros) does not affect personal physical activity.

Nigel Huddleston: it is important to show how sport is a top priority for the government. The one thing you were able to do during the deepest darkest lockdown was exercise. Not every country did this. In terms of prioritising re-opening, you have seen sports and physical activity being the first to reopen. This goes to grassroots and getting sports back behind closed doors. Yes, sports has been prioritised and 600 million in survival packages.

• The private sector also plays a pivotal role.

• Huge range of sports practiced over the country

• Going forward, we will continue that focus.

• The weight on Sport England’s shoulders has never been greater

• We have got the spending review coming up

• You know the role major sporting events can have on inspiring people

• At heart, coordinating and working closely with governing bodies in sports is important

• And again, Sport England is key here

Nick Gibb: during COVID, we worked with schools to continue PE. When schools were in lockdown, we also had PE through virtual sessions. Now schools are back, the best thing is for students to be back in school.

• This summer, we will have summer schools

• We have given 200 million pounds for secondary schools to provide summer programs

Jo Churchill: In the area of PHE campaigns, we have been doing as much as we can. Moving healthcare professionals program, we make sure that people are trained to answer the right questions. 33.3% of children don’t do more than 30 minutes of exercise. The levels need to be driven up.

• Mental wellbeing is a huge part of sport and wellbeing

• The department is focussing on this

• We have got to be smarter with this

Lord Addington: good recruitment programs when they prepare clubs to receive people in. Are you going to be taking this on a wider scale? What support do you need from colleagues?

Nigel Huddleston: there has probably never been a closer relationship between sports and government before. We talk to them everyday.

• We know their challenges in intimate detail

• The reason we were able to get the survival packages through was by recognising the importance of sports and recreation

• In terms of recruiting -- cricket and football are making efforts with women and ethnic minorities.

LA: It is not so much about that. It is more about you are going to have a drop-off of people in sports. You have had models built around big sporting events, are you taking that model and expanding it outside, and what support do you need?

Nigel Huddleston: It is about taking advantage of every big opportunity. We have the Rugby league cup coming up.

• Commonwealth games inspire and engage people

• I see a major role of sports, I am not sure whether government should do the role of governing bodies rather than encourage and support them.

LA: Are you looking at best practice recruitment?

Nigel Huddleston: We want to encourage participation. Governing bodies have made an impressive effort. We consistently support grassroot efforts. This goes to/via Sport England to do just that.

Lord Willis: Do sponsorships from elite sports bring and inspire people into sports? Is there a correlation between investing in big sporting events and people practicing sports?

Nigel Huddleston: There is a correlation.

• Big bang for your buck

• Good legacy

• People take up tennis during Wimbledon

Lord Moynihan: The use of IT has been quite absent. We’re in the 2020s, are you happy with the use of technology and the use of IT to reach young people and society to promote activity? Isn’t there much more than could be done in this area?

Jo Churchill: My answer would be yes. We could do more

• I suppose what we need to do is through various apps is that data is available to people through their fingertips. There is a much broader use to benefit people

• Diabetes affects people with a huge cost to the NHS. Our app is a pilot to tackle this

• The question is: how to keep this up? How to keep children engaged in sport?

• We need to be logging this better with more data -- e.g. wearable technology

• The payback here is enormous

• We cannot forget people who are digitally excluded

Lord Moynihan: if we are going to increase participation, isn’t IT central to that?
Nigel Huddleston: Yes. Some of the most successful apps are sport and health apps. Often there is a private incentive to private bodies

• We have seen some innovations within the past weeks and months

• I think there is a golden opportunity here to enhance not replace sporting experience

Nick Gibb: 40 teachers got together to create the Oak National Academy with the support of the department. This has expanded a lot. The use of technology has huge potential.

Weymouth: Nick, it would be interesting to see from Oak’s data from which subjects data has been consumed, I want to see data around the PE subject. Nigel is there discussion around a common API.

Nick Gibb: Maths, Science and English is at the top, but I hope PE is up there as well. I will send this enquiry to the community.

Nigel Huddleston: With the Active Recovery Hub, activity for the summer, we have seen a massive increase in interest. The schools game website has had a 3000% increase in interest. We can see the enthusiasm and interest.

Baroness Blower: Preliminary question: we have heard a lot about physical literacy. Is this the point where the PE curriculum might be updated and reconsidered to focus on physical literacy?
Nick Gibb: I am interested in reforming PE and sport in schools. This is a new distinction.

• Is it sport that school’s want to focus on or literacy?

• Jo’s obesity statistic worries me.

• Focus on being mentally and physically healthy

Nigel Huddleston: We have had quite a lot of conversations over the past year of sports provision in schools and school’s sports facilities. Conversations on how the public can use school’s sports facilities to get more bang for the buck -- how to use them in the communities when the schools would normally be closed. 40% of sport’s facilities sit in school’s perimeters.

Jo Churchill: The CMO’s focus is within movement, that children know how to climb and skip and so on. Focus on deprived communities -- there is almost always a school in these areas.

Weymouth: We heard from teachers that they felt like the money was not coming through? Is there some way we can see if the Sports premium is giving a good return on investment?

Nick Gibb: We hold school’s to account by asking them to give us a report on how they spent the money. The more you constrain school’s discretion, the less effective our school’s system is. You are right, we need to make sure our accountability is through the reporting mechanism.

Lord Snape: mixed gender sporting opportunities, the abolition of single-gendered sports. Are you considering these changes? Are there any sports you would rule out for gender mixing?
Nick Gibb: School’s are required to follow the Equality Act. They need to ensure that both genders have access to high quality PE and sport. That is a requirement

Nigel Huddleston: you know it's you know it's usually women that we need encouragement. Because of the physiology, it is not always practical and reasonable to do this at a competitive level. In terms of exciting all sexes, lets make sure we can do everything to get them excited.

• I have a womens in sport working group at the moment that is discussing this issues. WE can share some of these findings with the committee

Snape: What’s your view on physical contact sport?

Jo Churchill: As someone who played mixed hockey, I hoped we moved beyond that stage where we are talking about those terms.

• I want an environment where it is accessible and enjoyable.

• We have not used the word enjoyment enough today

• We enjoy being able to slap a tennis ball around on a tennis court.

• You often don’t ask what gender are they, how fast they can run etc.

• I want it to be accessible and fun.

• Children now have considerably more choice in the activities they do

Baroness Morris of Yardley: getting PE in schools better than it is now is definitely the top of the list. The sports premium is a good step forward. Teachers raised an issue on the lack of training for PE teachers. For primary school, how much training would you have had to teach these students? Do you know how many students are not taught by specialist teachers in secondary schools?

Nick Gibb: We are in the middle of reforms. We are making sure teachers are mentored and are acquiring those skills. That is being extended to initial teacher training. There is an increasing emphasis on subject knowledge. That is the direction of travel for initial teacher training. The golden thread is evidence based teaching and a focus on subject knowledge.

In terms of specialist training, in terms of PE recruitment, we have met our targets and exceeded targets in the teacher supply model.

Baroness Morris of Yardley: Are there teachers teaching primary schools not specialised? Obtained adequate training? How much training do they get before they are put in front of a class

Nick Gibb: This is why we had a manifesto commitment in 2019. It has not progressed as swiftly as we would have hoped because of Covid. I have been discussing a more extensive provision of sport with Nigel. There has been a huge improvement in PE because of the premiums and the sport and activity action plan, but I would also like to see reform in this area, similarly to how we have seen in other academic areas.

Yardley: On average, it is 6 hours in the ITT year. Teachers are put in front of a class of primary schoolers with 6 hours of training. Is that where we should be?
Nick Gibb: The issue with primary schools is that teachers are generalists. They teach multiple subjects. You could pick any one subject and see those minimal hours in subject based training. The recommendation that could come from your committee is that you would like to see more specialist training in primary school teachers.

Yardley: With the premium, essentially some schools are using premiums to bring in external coaches and not to train teachers. I know this is not permitted, but I have heard it too many times for it not to be a concern in schools.

Nick Gibb: That is what they are meant to do. They can bring in coaches, but also have to upskill existing staff to teach sports once they leave. It is about making sustainable change in the school in the long term.

Lord Willis: One of the most disturbing things about the evidence that has come back to us, is the amount of time that has been reduced for sports in schools. You are not going to tackle fundamental issues on one hour of sport a week.

Nick Gibb: We don’t allocate time. Government does not dictate how much time is delegated per subject, I would be concerned about one hour a week. This is one of many issues I am looking at in reforming this area of the curriculum.

Lord Willis: With Scandinavian and New Zealand colleagues, we have noticed the closeness of clubs and schools in providing sports. We see a split between schools and clubs. Is that on your agenda?

Nigel Huddleston: I see what you are saying, but I also see the exact opposite. There is very mixed pattern around the country. Clubs have been saying they’re are very keen to get close to schools. We need to make sure this is sustainable in the long term.

Lord Addington: What’s preventing schools from opening their facilities to their community? Many clubs start their initiation on school playing fields. What problems are you having in accessing this huge potential resource?

Nigel Huddleston: We need to find a mechanism to open school facilities. I think the problem you have raised is an inhibitor to Women’s sports. Men hog certain facilities. The solution is let’s just open it up, but it is not as simple as that -- we have duty of care and infrastructure issues.

Nick Gibb: There are challenges. For example, the ownership of playing fields. We piloted this in 2016 with 23 active partnerships to identify barriers. We learnt through that. We learnt how to develop links with the local community. We allocated 10.1 million pounds and expanding it to all 42 active partnerships around the country. It is about activating assets. It is about forging links. Forging human connections is what came out of the pilot. Human to human links.

Jo Churchill: I had driven a local scheme like this. I will carry on doing this. It is about the human relationships like Nick said. It is about housing development, cycling paths, reconfiguring the town etc. You can do a lot if you can get a hold of the asset -- and the asset is where you play sports. From a health perspective, we need to build. In building resilience, we build human capital.