To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they had with
police chiefs about vigils on 13 March in memory of Sarah Everard
prior to those vigils taking place.
(Lab) [V]
My Lords, I draw attention to my interest in the register and beg
leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Minister of State, Home Office () (Con) [V]
My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has
said, she met Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick last Friday and
over the weekend to discuss the vigil. Her view that the images
from Saturday are upsetting is a matter of public record and she
has asked for an independent review into the matter.
(Lab) [V]
Ministers have made it clear for months that there should be a
tougher approach to Black Lives Matter, climate emergency and
anti-lockdown demonstration, and all that is reflected in the
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. Operational
independence does not preclude Ministers, PCCs or mayors from
providing advice to police leaders on how their actions will be
seen and on the community effect of operational decisions. That
is what political oversight is all about, so what advice did the
Home Secretary offer on this occasion? When she and the
commissioner spoke by telephone while the ugly scenes on Clapham
Common were taking place, what did they talk about—the weather?
(Con) [V]
My Lords, I will quote directly from the Home Secretary, who
said:
“It is right that I have had many discussions with the
Metropolitan police and specifically the commissioner on Friday
and over the weekend in relation to preparations and planning
prior to Saturday evening. My comments are public and on the
record regarding what has happened and, quite frankly, the
upsetting images of Saturday evening. A review is now being
conducted by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. It is
right that that takes place.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/3/21;
col 29.]
The noble Lord talks about operational independence. It is
absolutely right that the police have operational independence,
but it is also absolutely right that, first, the Government make
the law and, secondly, that conversations take place between the
Executive and some of the agencies of government.
(Lab) [V]
My Lords, as the day wears on, many protests give rise to
excesses all round. My family tells me that, this Sunday
afternoon, the police were courteous but firm. Was it the
Government’s purpose in their regulations to ban all protests? If
so, will they now regulate to preserve the right of protest, so
that both police and the public are able to return to normality?
(Con) [V]
My Lords, noble Lords will recognise that banning protests was
not at the heart of what the Government did; banning protests was
part of keeping the public safe in this global pandemic—keeping
down the numbers of people who get infected and therefore keeping
people out of hospital.
(LD) [V]
My Lords, last week, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary
and Fire and Rescue Services published a report that found that,
“when forces do not accurately assess the level of disruption
caused, or likely to be caused, by a protest, the balance may tip
too readily in favour of protesters.”
The author, Matt Parr, a former Royal Navy officer, is currently
suing the Home Office, claiming that he is being paid less than a
colleague because he is a white man. Politically, do the
Government believe that the rear-admiral is the best person, and
HMICFRS the best organisation, to be conducting the so-called
independent review into the protests by women on Clapham Common,
in the light of its recent report and the tribunal action?
(Con) [V]
On the noble Lord’s former point, this is obviously an equal pay
matter and that process will take its path. I think that HMICFRS
is the right organisation to investigate, because it is the body
that we would appoint to do such work.
(Con) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend the Minister and her
ministerial colleagues in the Home Office on giving police and
crime commissioners their unequivocal support for the internal
review of PCCs, the findings of which were announced earlier this
week. I express my hope that the electorate across England and
Wales will be encouraged by this review to turn out and vote on 6
May for their local PCC. Given that it now appears that PCCs will
be with us for some time, does the Minister agree that PCCs
should make it a priority to develop close working relationships
with their chief constables so that the operational decisions of
their chiefs on matters such as the policing of vigils and other
major events are publicly supported by the local PCC on the basis
that they had been fully consulted about them beforehand?
The Lord Privy Seal () (Con)
Before the Minister responds, could I ask noble Lords to please
keep their questions brief?
(Con) [V]
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his kind words, and of
course PCCs have our full support. It is absolutely crucial that
the various agencies communicate with each other when such events
are to take place and that PCCs are fully keyed into those
events. For the most part, the events held over the weekend went
very peacefully.
(Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, vigils were held outside London, including one in
Victoria Square in Birmingham. More than 100 people attended and
the West Midlands Police responded in a peaceful way. It
reinforced its commitment to policing through explanation,
engagement, encouragement and using force only as a last resort.
When it comes to this kind of operational decision, could I urge
the Minister that we should learn the lessons of more peaceful
demonstrations and find out why things so clearly went wrong at
Clapham Common last Saturday?
(Con) [V]
I thank the noble Baroness for that question because it segues
quite nicely from the points that I have just made. Yes, most of
the events and vigils went peacefully with people socially
distancing and the police having no problems at all. I think that
the review by Sir Tom Winsor will give us a greater insight into
why some things went wrong on Saturday at one particular event.
(Lab) [V]
On Monday, the Home Secretary told the Commons that the
Metropolitan Police Service was “rightly operationally
independent.” Given that, what was the purpose of the extensive
discussions held by the Home Secretary with the Metropolitan
Police Commissioner throughout the weekend on police planning and
preparation for the vigil? Was the purpose that the Home
Secretary wanted to make sure that the Metropolitan Police would
not do anything with which she did not agree?
(Con) [V]
My Lords, it is absolutely right that the commissioner of the
largest police force in the country should keep the Home
Secretary up to date, and I know that she speaks with her
regularly. That is not so the Home Secretary can dictate what the
Metropolitan Police does, but it is very important that the two
keep in communication.
(LD) [V]
My Lords, is it not now the policy of the police, as in my
experience it used to be, to meet the organisers of demos or
protests to agree how peaceful protest can legitimately take
place?
(Con) [V]
My Lords, in ordinary circumstances and indeed even under Covid
restrictions, that would be the case. Clearly, what went wrong on
Saturday will be a matter for the review by Sir Tom Winsor.
(Con)
My Lords, in wishing my noble friend a speedy return from
isolation, could I ask her how many demonstrations took place
around the country, how many arrests were made outside London,
and whether lessons can please be drawn from this in the future?
(Con) [V]
My Lords, I cannot give my noble friend the exact number, but
this review will give us a good idea of what lessons can be
learned in what are of course very unusual times.
